landing

[Zack C]

Thermal activity increased significantly and rapidly during the course of my flight. I suspect the storms earlier cooled things off, creating a lull before they picked back up. Had I landed before Kevin launched, I'd have advised against him flying, but at the time he launched it wasn't bad.

In the end, however, it was the speed of the wind and not the turbulence that put him short of the airport. The turbulence could have factored into the crash after that point, but we'll never know.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Zack C - 2013/06/25 04:59:58 UTC

The thermal activity combined with mechanical turbulence from the wind made for very rowdy conditions near the ground - some of the worst I've seen at Columbus.

Ground Kevin until tomorrow when everything's well within Two guidelines. A thermal or dust devil kicks off just as he's landing and for several seconds the landings can become THE worst conditions anybody's seen at Columbus.

That describes what was going on when I trashed the last downtube of my career. (The ribbons were switching all over the place and there was a dust devil tracking through nearby.) I was doing everything textbook and a second or two shy of flare when the glider suddenly went sideways and dropped the last four inches. (I think I'd have been OK if I had come in for a wheel landing.) Kevin would've looked just like I did and my situation wasn't the least bit dangerous - just annoying/expensive.

Zack C - 2013/06/29 21:29:46 UTC

Kevin's launch looked fine.

Anybody who can stay in position behind a tug in crappy air has got all the basic flying skills he's ever gonna have or need.

THE concern - for ANYBODY - that day was DRIFT.

I pick a Three or up at random, tell him that he's gotta give that Two over there the most important caution for the day, he's gonna tell him to watch his drift because that's also HIS primary concern - and the one he can most easily do something about.

You don't walk over to the Two and tell him, "I'm grounding you because I'm worried about you drifting out of range of the airport." You walk over to the Two and tell him, "Stay upwind of the airport, watch your drift, if you start getting in trouble BAIL and we'll be more than happy to pick you up when you're broken down."

If he, as a Two, isn't competent enough to follow those directions he sure as hell isn't competent enough to be aerotowing, have a Two, or do much of anything else in this sport.

In the end, however, it was the speed of the wind and not the turbulence that put him short of the airport.

Nah. The speed of the wind was just a bit over the stall speed of the glider. What put him short of the airport was pointing his glider in the wrong direction too much of the time.

When I was flying Woodstock a regularly, a lot of idiots - myself included on a fair number of occasions - would thermal up in strong winds and do mediocre jobs of keeping track of the drift.

Then when the thermal tops out you suddenly notice where you are - way the hell back and way the hell back behind the ridge lift band in nothing but strong smooth compressed horizontal airflow. And the VG goes on, the elbows get locked and the fingers get extended. And you pick a tree several thousand feet below and try to make it inch backwards as all the good numbers are flying off your altimeter.

I pulled that trick on 1991/08/31 near the end of Bald Eagle Mountain at Williamsport, Pennsylvania on my old Comet 165. Circled back in strong air with negligible climb, threw in the towel, and suddenly realized I was way the hell back over a huge plateau with no bail option. I was over twenty miles from launch and nobody knew where I was. What kept me alive was the wind gradient when I got down close to the treetops. (Found out when I made it back that I was also violating the Williamsport Regional Airport Control Zone.)

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

Bullshit.

The turbulence could have factored into the crash after that point, but we'll never know.

Nah, people don't fly into powerlines because of turbulence. People fly into powerlines because they don't see them - at all or in time.
And there's nothing in the information we have to suggest that it was.
And it just occurred to me that if he snapped the top nose wire...

The top wire from the kingpost to the nose was broken...

He severed the lower neutral line about half the distance between the poles.

...and severed the lower neutral line about half the distance between the poles he was probably level and trying to dive under the nasty surprise he had just discovered.

But it doesn't really matter all that much. The main issues are that he:
- wasn't where he planned and wanted to be
- was coming down in a hostile environment
- could've very easily been coming down where he planned and wanted to be or in an alternate equally friendly environment.

And I think that the best thing we can take away from this one is that we're not spending one percent of the effort on training people what the main threats in this sport are that we do on those goddam standup landings.

Look at the fucking Davis Show fer instance. Goddam "Rooney Landings" thread immortalized as the first of two stickies at the top. Currently 187 posts and 29108 hits on flare timing. Kevin didn't die because his flare timing was off. Where are the discussions on staying in range of safe fields and powerline awareness?

"Fatality near Columbus, Texas" has two posts and 204 hits. Percentages: 1.1 and 0.7 respectively. Disgusting. (Big surprise.)

[Steve Davy]

Thanks you guys for helping me get my head around this one. I've been depressed about it.

If he, as a Two, isn't competent enough to follow those directions he sure as hell isn't competent enough to be aerotowing, have a Two, or do much of anything else in this sport.

Good point. I'd like to know if Kevin's tug pilot knew he was a hang two.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, it's got me bummed out too. Sounds like a good guy mostly doing things right who made some forgivable mistakes which would've likely had zilch to minor consequences save for some powerlines stretched at an unfortunate location.

As far as the tug is concerned, MY TAKE...

Let's throw out equipment issues (which were, of course, completely irrelevant here).

I'm not really concerned about whether or not the tug knew what was or wasn't on Kevin's card because the USHGA Pilot Proficiency Program / instructional/rating system and towing SOPs is such a sewer as to make the card meaningless.

I have absolutely no faith in any Dragonfly driver because he's - by definition - flying a weak link configuration dangerous for the glider and commonly blatantly illegal and - by choice - dangerous to himself (one weak link above the tow ring).

So why start worrying about the card at the back end?

The launch crew, the pilot and the tug pilot felt conditions were suitable otherwise the tow wouldn't and couldn't have taken place.

From where I sit that's both all the tug needs and the best he can do.

Conditions induced lockouts are not preventable.
- Near the ground they must be considered and often are unsurvivable but are avoidable.
- At altitude they're unavoidable but inconsequential.

The tug must tow a glider he's confident has the basic control skills and responses to get through the kill zone - about the first couple of hundred feet.

And if the glider's OK to go through the kill zone:
- he's also OK to go through the next couple thousand feet; and
- the next couple thousand feet don't really matter much anyway.

The instant the glider's bridle clears the tow ring the tug has no responsibility for the glider. He's analogous to wire crew. His job was to get the glider safely started to operate as a glider and it's now over.

If the glider:
- gets or is blown downwind and shorts out the powerlines
- goes upwind and powerwhacks in a wheat field
- clips the airport windsock and cartwheels
- blows a loop and a cross spar at 150 feet over the runway

that is not the problem or responsibility of the tug. That's the problem and responsibility of the person whose name is on the card and everybody in the hierarchy up from that point.

THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

however / by contrast is DESPICABLE. "I think you're incometent but I'll tow you anyway if you use an illegally light weak link because it MIGHT improve your situation in a low level lockout (despite my having virtually no evidence to give me reason for hope)."

I've never flown a trike before but I could hop on one tomorrow, put a solid Hang 2.0 with zero tow experience - including scooter - on a cart with a two point bridle, Joe Street release, and six hundred pound towline weak link and do infinitely better than Mark Frutiger did with Zack Marzec and Joel Froehlich did with Ben Dunn. Might as well throw in Harold Johnson and Lin Lyons while we're at it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/09 13:52:00 UTC

An experienced pilot flying a fusion > topless. Flew in to the LZ a bit high with the VG stuck on , slowed ( WRONG ACTION) Stalled a tip in the gradient and dove , spun in from 20' .

Big surprise.

He took a beating but is OK , hopefully a bit smarter.

If he were capable of getting smarter he'd have done it already.

Not much damage to glider. Soft wet ground probably helped.

Janica Lee - 2013/07/09 14:53:15 UTC

What made the VG line get stuck?

Who gives a rat's ass? A VG stuck on is only about one percent of the problem that worrying about a VG stuck on is.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/09 22:01:44 UTC

We don't really know. haven't inspected it yet, Probably needed lubing. It's good to spray those pulleys and line with silicon or Teflon every few months.

Rubbish. A VG doesn't jam because pulleys aren't lubricated.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/10 13:46:46 UTC

An other major cause of this incident...

We don't need another major cause of this incident. Next topic?

...was doing low turns to lose altitude.

As per the point Jason's gonna make immediately below, how do you do low turns to lose altitude? (Kinda like, "What good is a hot water heater?")

PLUS it was mid-day, windy and turbulent. He was attempting a turn when the tip dropped.

Yeah. Like you told us already - he was SLOW. And if he was slow enough to drop a tip attempting a turn his speed sucked for level flight as well. Next topic?

I have watched this pilot and many others land their topless gliders doing low turns to finish getting into the Ellenville LZ . To Me this is a sign they really shouldn't be flying a topless.

Fuck...

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


...that.

Doing low turns during a normal landing is asking for a bruising .

BULLSHIT. Being able to do PROPER low turns is the single best tool a pilot at any level has to safely stop a glider in a field.

That is not how to bleed off altitude!

Nah. Use the John Simon method. Pick a target in the middle of the field and set up a long final to give yourself plenty of time and opportunity to rotate upright early. And if you find that your glide path isn't putting you quite where you estimated it would REMAIN RESOLUTE. Stick with your flight plan at all costs. If you clip the taxiway sign and break a couple of arms everybody will call it a freak accident 'cause you're a really cool really popular dude.

Don't do it ! unless you have lots of speed !

And why WOULDN'T anybody have lotsa speed? It's not like anyone's trying to scratch back up at this point.

Long straight approaches ,from at least 50' is the safe way to make approaches.

Long straight approaches from at least fifty feet are for morons.

On a topless, we burn of altitude by getting upright and pulling in.

Who's "WE"?

Speed and drag gets us down safely.

When you're upright you can't do SPEED. And you can't do control even more 'cause you can't:

- do speed

- control the glider...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...with your hands at shoulder or ear height on the fucking downtubes

The glider will not over speed if we are upright.

Doesn't sound like your guy was having much of a problem with excess speed.

If you haven't practiced this, DO!

And keep working on perfecting your flare timing and - when that doesn't work - crash technique.

Flying a topless is not just a step up from a U-2 or such. It is a huge step up in performance and skills needed to handle it . Respect that!

Fuck that. It's a glider. If you really know how to fly a Falcon you won't have any problem transitioning to a T2C. (And - no - that doesn't mean try to stop it on the cone on your feet in a tight thermally field for your first hop.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Jason Boehm - 2013/07/10 14:00:42 UTC
Stapleton, Colorado

This post makes no sense.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/10 13:46:46 UTC

An other major cause of this incident was doing low turns to lose altitude.

If he's doing low turns, hasn't he already lost altitude?

PLUS it was mid-day, windy and turbulent. He was attempting a turn when the tip dropped.

So he was too slow?

I have watched this pilot and many others land their topless gliders doing low turns to finish getting into the Ellenville LZ . To Me this is a sign they really shouldn't be flying a topless.

I do low turns in my topless... Do you fly a topless?

Doing low turns during a normal landing is asking for a bruising . That is not how to bleed off altitude!

There's that low altitude turn to lose altitude thing again.

Don't do it ! unless you have lots of speed !

That's probably the best advice here.

On a topless, we burn of altitude by getting upright and pulling in.

Flying a topless is not just a step up from a U2 or such. It is a huge step up in performance and skills needed to handle it. Respect that!

The skills needed to handle it to do WHAT and in WHAT environment? Yeah, you need to get wired on it before you start scratching near the slope but I get sick of hearing all about how one needs to put in a hundred hours on each glide point as one moves up the range on every incremental glider the manufacturer sells.

What do you fly?

T2C low turns to follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BD2vBX7udM

I fixed your crappy sub second grade writing 'cause I liked most of what you had to say.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/10 14:26:55 UTC

I fly a Atos VR and flexi's . I flew a topless 9airwave extreme) for many yrs . 800 hrs on it. How much time you have on yours ? I stand by my previous post.

And we should really perk up and pay attention to what you're saying 'cause you've got the most astounding record of walking away from high speed impacts that anybody on four continents has ever heard.

Usually it's not just one wrong action that cause an accident .

A what?

Several wrongs accumulate to make an unrecoverable crash.

This time it was stuck VG...

I missed where that had to do with anything.

...midday conditions...

Yeah, that one'll bite ya every time. It always astounds me when I see people flying hang gliders in midday conditions.

...encroaching high on the LZ...

There's no such thing as too high before you've turned onto final.

Flying too slow...

Ya, let's focus on that one.

...making low turns.

He CAN'T be encroaching HIGH *AND* making LOW turns.

Any one of these could and has caused landing incidents but all together they make it very likely.

OK, let's start eliminating threats to bring us down to something manageable...

- midday conditions because that's when we're most likely to encounter those nasty thermals that make launches as well as landings so dangerous

- VG because it makes it really hard to do slow turns

- altitude because, as we've just seen, low turns with excess altitude are very dangerous - and confusing

- Turns because:

-- we're never gonna have a range problem with respect to our chosen or available field or narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place

-- they're really hard to execute with our hands at shoulder or ear height on the fucking downtubes where we have them so we can:
--- fly upright and can kill altitude we're sure we're never gonna need to extend a glide
--- whipstall the glider to a dead stop to either:
---- land safely in narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place; or
---- practice for landing safely in narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place

Of course slowing down was the worst.

And the only item you've listed that really makes any sense.

Speed would have got him through the other threats.

There WERE NO other threats.

You Jason are young , I am old- der . with lots of experience.

And indescribable wisdom.

I am still here and may others are not.

Lucky us.

A long time back I decided to eliminate as many dangerous aspects as possible from my flying.

- stronglinks which don't break when you need them too
- redundant weak links which result in doubled allowable towline tension
- straight release pins which don't easily close over thick bridles with no weak links
- two point bridles and launch dollies because they increase complexity and failure modes
- hook-in checks which give pilots false senses of security

Low turns in a topless was one of them. plus I do lots of flying on the east coast where we have small tree surrounded LZs.

Me too.

Speed and drag management is an art to get rigids and topless wings into these places.

So's flying ability.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Jason Boehm - 2013/07/10 14:41:01 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/10 14:26:55 UTC

How much time you have on yours ?

I'm horrible with my logbook, so I have no idea...

Maybe if you learned to write at a mid grade school level of competence you'd be a lot less horrible with your logbook. (I'm continuing to make repairs 'cause I can't stand reading crap from people who can't be bothered to spell actual words and use shift keys and punctuation.)

...but I first flew a topless (Talon) back in 2002, followed shortly thereafter by a Litespeed, since then I've flown a handful of Stealths, and a couple T2Cs.

...encroaching high on the LZ, Flying too slow, making low turns.

I wasn't there, and there is no video, so I am having a hard time envisioning this high on the LZ / low turn combination.

Speed would have got him through the other threats.

Speed saves lives, be it a Fusion or a 777.

Just ask Captain Sum Ting Wong. (It was about twenty minutes before I was able to resume work after watching that one. (Thanks again, Steve.))

You Jason are young...

I was young when I started flying 14 years ago... and somehow I'm still younger then most.

I'm leaving "then" in there.

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/10 16:01:21 UTC

I am having a hard time envisioning this high on the LZ low turn combination.

That's because at Ellenville and many other Northeast sites pilots avoid getting too close to the tree line on base so they can't make a long final. When they end up high over the LZ, then they throw in low turns.

And end up close to or in the trees at the upwind end of the field.

They learn that habit in gliders that let them get away with it.

And who's instructing, observing, signing them off when they're learning that habit in gliders that let them get away with it, Tom?

NMERider - 2013/07/10 16:08:19 UTC

That explains it nicely.

Out of curiosity and concern for others' safety - how many NE pilots fly with drag chutes and either use them regularly or are at least ready and able to use theirs if needed?

With your curiosity and concern for others' safety...
- How 'bout we deal with approach basics before whipping out the drag chute crutch?
- What was your take on the Zack Marzec and Lin Lyons incidents?
- How come we didn't get any valuable input and/or insights from Bob Kuczewski, Joe Greblo, or Greg DeWolf?

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/10 16:29:33 UTC

Few, but it that does not address the core issue.

Gawd I hate it when you start saying something right.

They need to get over their fear of the trees and do a proper DBF (or Figure 8 depending on circumstances) in the right areas...

They needed to have had their shit solidly together on DBF before some asshole signed them off on their Twos and understand which trees they REALLY need to be afraid of.

...for a long final.

Fuck long finals. Long finals require long fields. The name of the game is keeping the final as short as safely possible in order to keep your safety margin as wide as possible.

Setting up for a landing over an LZ is asking for trouble.

Isn't that the best way to spot land on a cone in the middle of it?

Jason Boehm - 2013/07/10 16:37:56 UTC

Whenever I have had to set up in a small area over trees I have do my turn to final just above treetop, with speed enough to ensure the trees don't reach up and grab me.

Here is a video of Brian Foster doing it right.

Brian Foster RLF Landing at Windy Hill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TIEHN5Yw1k
C R Valley - 2009/11/23
dead

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


BULL'S-EYE. This is the approach towards which all of our flight training subsequent to the Hang One ticket should be geared.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

NMERider - 2013/07/10 16:48:51 UTC

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/10 16:29:33 UTC

Few, but it that does not address the core issue.

I fully agree. Even with a drag chute available, the landing should be initiated correctly using a DBF which typically allows multiple opportunities to correct the glide path for lift, sink, wind shifts, etc. Overdependence on drag chutes can lead to bad habits and lazy landing technique.

Good, Jonathan. You've got your shit together well enough on landing issues. Now just stay the fuck out of towing and hook-in issues and we can get along passably well.

What techniques or approaches have you found effective to encourage pilots in need to improve the use of their DBF technique?

What are you reading that I'm not that indicates to you that anybody from that neck of the woods has ANYTHING to encourage pilots to improve their DBF technique? How closely have you been following the crap that Dave is always writing?

Glenn Zapien - 2013/07/10 16:55:38 UTC

Brian also took a step back to a U2. Said it was too sketch stressful to land in those tight LZ's with a T2 at some of the places he had no trouble with landing on a U2.

Maybe he should be putting more stress on stopping it in fields than he puts on his flare timing.

I respect and understand Brian completely...

Big fucking surprise.

...and have never flown a T2. I will leave the T2 for the bad ass top pilots. U2 is all this average pilot needs.

Fuck T2s. They've got a little flatter glide and they like a little longer field. You shouldn't be cutting your margins so close that it makes a measurable difference.

zamuro - 2013/07/10 17:21:40 UTC
New York

Dave's advice is pretty much what I followed when I started flying a topless and before.

Bummer.

Try always to make a long final...

Fuck long finals.

...and avoid having to make S turns at low altitude to compensate for the bad approach and the possibility of overshooting.

Finish your turns before you turn onto final.

Also being upright in the final not only helps by adding drag...

If you need to add drag on final you did a shit job of either:
- approaching
- selecting a field

...but it is IMHO safer than staying prone until the very end.

Yeah.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Right.

With a VG stuck I would certainly avoid having to do many turns to keep within the landing area.

If you're carrying good speed you're not gonna notice whether or not your goddam VG is stuck.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/07/10 17:23:53 UTC

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/10 16:29:33 UTC

Few, but it that does not address the core issue.

Bingo! Never a fan of the S turns on the base leg.

But don't be afraid to extend your base and double back to kill excess altitude if you need - or want - to.

Richard Bryant - 2013/07/10 17:27:09 UTC
New Egypt, New Jersey

I spoke at length with this pilot.

Whom nobody's naming because?

He's an old friend...

If he's a friend of yours he can get fucked.

(flew with him 35 yrs ago). Due to a bad back he always lands on wheels...

Bob Grant?

...so doesn't go upright at all.

And he still can't figure out how to maintain enough speed to keep the glider flying until he's down?

I suggested a drogue chute.

I didn't hear that the field was too short. I heard that he was too high.

He's going to look into it.

Instead of approach and landing basics.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/10 19:18:16 UTC

Many of the LZs I land in would not tolerate slipping in over the trees .

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


1. Maybe many of the LZs you land in would benefit from slipping in over the trees tolerance classes.
2. I don't see anybody slipping in over the trees here. Are you quite sure we're both looking at the same video?

It gets too much speed going and the yawing around as you come out makes it uncertain where you will end up.

And perish the thought that we should EVER come into a field with anything less than one hundred percent certainty of ending up within a fifteen foot radius of the designated traffic cone.

I would setup a little high behind the trees and dive at the edge as soon as I am clear I get out of prone putting on as much drag as possible. Dive it to the ground and drag my toes if I look long. Sometime I get out of prone before the trees if the air was smooth.

I'm a bit confused here, Dave. Sounds to me like you're come into the field with something less than one hundred percent certainty of ending up within a fifteen foot radius of the designated traffic cone.

I have a friend that just started flying a T2c. I explained it to him . After a couple flights he said wow! that is the way to get that ship into the LZ.

And THIS:

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


of course, isn't.

The drag stops us from over speeding...

Overspeeding?

- Once you're down on the deck you're in danger of having your airspeed increase unless you're upright?

- Is that how you stop yourself from overspeeding when you're flying at altitude? By going upright to create a lot of drag?

- Overspeeding...

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/09 13:52:00 UTC

An experienced pilot flying a fusion > topless. Flew in to the LZ a bit high with the VG stuck on , slowed ( WRONG ACTION) Stalled a tip in the gradient and dove , spun in from 20' .

...doesn't seem to be all that big of an issue up in your neck of the woods.

- Show me some landing crash videos or cite some landing crash reports in which overspeeding was determined to be a contributing factor.

...plus being upright is good for longevity.

Of course it is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704


It would be just plain wacko to come in on one of these things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

...leading with your head.

Ellenville has plenty of room for long straight finals.

But come in upright anyway so you can create the megadrag you'll need to get it stopped before you overshoot.

Pilots just don't focus or don't understand the basics of making an approach.

Maybe if you'd shut the fuck up on the issue of making approaches and stick to your specialty - surviving high speed impacts back at launch - they'd do a wee bit better.

As tom said They fly their topless or U2 like it was a single surface.

Yeah, well I can see how they'd make that mistake - seeing as how the owner's manual instructions for landing the Falcon 3 and T2 are identical.

And when you watch the designer landing birds at both ends of the spectrum...

http://vimeo.com/36061800

http://vimeo.com/36062225


...one tends to have a bit of difficulty detecting the discrepancies. And what Steve's doing and saying doesn't look or sound much like what you're describing. But, of course, he doesn't have the background of surviving high speed impacts that you do - so who's to really say?

Training gliders are just for that. Pilots mentoring them need to help them develop habits that will keep them safe when they step up.

What? We don't have an instructional program that's supposed to do that. Don't Greg Black and Paul Voight have schools somewhere up there in the Ellenville area?

I have used a drag chute only once. Bad result.

1. Well then, what possible chance of using one successfully could anyone else possibly have?

2. I seem to recall that you've used hang gliders more than once with...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20542
Crash survival wisdom

Dave Hopkins - 2011/01/18 04:52:12 UTC

In my 30 plus yrs of flying I have had a bunch of terrible crashes.

...less than stellar results.

I watch a friend side slip his litespeed into the ground and destroy it and almost himself.

And nobody's ever...
- done that - or worse - WITHOUT a drag chute
- tossed a reserve that didn't instantly solve all of his problems in a manner acceptable to all
- kept his neck from getting broken by using a drag chute to prevent an overshoot
- gotten his neck broken because he needed that option and didn't have it

I have found that good judgement and skill will get us through the tight landings.

Great. Then we really don't need to be discussing drag chutes, wheels, skids, helmets, or skills like low turns that you've deemed to be of no value.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Rodger Hoyt - 2013/07/10 20:16:47 UTC

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/10 16:01:21 UTC

When they end up high over the LZ, then they throw in low turns. They learn that habit in gliders that let them get away with it.

EXACTLY!

I've often wondered about the wisdom of pilots staying on low-perf gliders.

Me too. And I've often wondered how anyone ever managed to muddle through until late 1979 when the UP Comet - which is a piece of junk compared to today's superships - appeared on the scene.

Such forgiving gliders indulge the worst flying habits and allow them to become deeply engrained.

ANY aircraft can indulge the worst flying habits and allow them to become deeply engrained. Didn't you just read the crap Dave Hopkins just wrote about bringing a topless in by rotating up early behind the treeline for a long straight final? And it's a no brainer that he's gonna try to whipstall it do a dead stop instead of letting it gently settle to the ground when it's finished flying and roll to a stop.

I've watched it happen many times.

Yeah, you'd think that an instructor's name on a card should actually mean something.

After a few hours airtime I jumped on a hi-perf glider. Best move I ever made. It trained me to have good fundamentals.

The way the guy who signed your Two was supposed to have?

Might not work for a lesser pilot than myself however

Drogue chutes: just another thing to go wrong.

1. But you're totally cool with Zack Marzec's Rooney Link and Lin Lyons' Birren Pitch Limiter? I'm guessing you are 'cause I didn't hear you comment during any of the discussions.

2. How 'bout Lin's reserve chute? Those things have a HUGE record of going wrong.

An upright pilot pulled in with an open harness will drag you down fast.

1. An upright pilot pulled in with an open harness and drag chute will be dragged down faster.
2. A prone pilot with or without a drag chute can pull in a lot farther and is about a hundred times less likely to break a downtube, arm, or neck.
3. Show me a video of someone landing who needs extra drag to get his glider safely stopped in the available field.

NMERider - 2013/07/10 20:30:39 UTC

It's possible to learn good fundamentals on entry level hang gliders but how often does that even happen?

About as often as you see you see a Hang Two who's been signed off by a competent instructor. Never.

What I see too often are pilots who make long, airliner style approaches on Falcons.

Exactly the way they were taught to so they could hit the cone in the middle of a mile wide training field.

Or they get away with using S-turns to bleed off excess altitude.

Don't wanna have them doing low turns onto final. Those are dangerous because many of the LZs Dave lands in would not tolerate slipping in over the trees because it gets too much speed going and the yawing around as you come out makes it uncertain where you will end up.

Then they move up and the fun begins. Yet, a Falcon can be used to set up a tiny little DBF that would easily fit inside a standard football field (ignoring the goal posts)...

(Probably not a good idea to ignore the goal posts.)

...but I don't see that happen very often before the pilot moves up.

It shoulda happened EVERY SINGLE TIME *BEFORE* the pilot gets his fuckin' Two.

Even the Sport 2 and similar gliders are capable of extremely tight patterns and very steep final legs but again, I rarely see many pilots do this before moving up yet again...

And thanks so much for confirming that the LA area instruction controlled by Joe Greblo and Rob McKenzie totally sucks.

I asked the question earlier and never got an answer. The question is: How do we encourage pilots (who we know personally) with poor landing approach technique to improve their technique?

By spending more time denigrating the Rube Goldberg release systems T** at K*** S****** has spent years developing and making available to people who are fed up with the cheap shoddy bent pin shit Rooney permits them to use.

And: What has successfully worked to this end in the past?

I always find you can get people's attention a lot easier in the two to three week period after somebody's been separated from the wreckage and hauled off in a body bag.

I want to know because I have pilots asking me to help them go XC like I do and when I ask then to demonstrate safe and consistent out-landing technique on strange (but nearby) fields I'm met with silence.

Accept Darwinian evolution as a normal, natural, positive element of hang gliding and allow it to take its course.