Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Tim Dyer - 2013/06/29 17:03:26 UTC
Las Vegas

Weak links are not for lockouts. They prevent the glider from overstressing. You can lock out all the way to the ground and still have an intact weak link.

Wow.

I mean... BULLSHIT!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Ryan Voight - 2010/09/07 02:50:00 UTC

Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.

There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Wilbur Brown - 2013/06/29 17:24:33 UTC
Northern California

Lots to learn from this one!

Yeah, lemme start writing this down before I forget all the valuable lessons...

- Guillotines on winches aren't really important because you hardly ever need them and, hell, the glider HAS a parachute.

- Never worry about using a release that allows you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube because in a lockout you'll be able to control the glider with one hand much better than you would on a landing approach.

- Run an autorelease line from your nose to your bridle apex so if the glider pitches up steeply the power will be cut instantly, the nose will return to a proper attitude, and the glider can fly back for a relight.

- Never configure your three-string as a locking mechanism.

- If you DO configure your three-string as a locking mechanism make extra sure you have a backup release that you haven't fucked up, a failsafe, and a couple of hook knives.

- Never use a Koch two stage chest crusher because...
-- Mission Soaring Center uses the best towing technology available and they don't use the Koch chest crusher.
-- A Koch chest crusher is much more expensive than a three-string.
-- Since there's no skill involved in hooking up with a Koch chest crusher you won't develop any skill hooking up with it.
-- Since it's a lot easier to slap a paddle than grab and pull a string you won't develop any real actuation skills with a Koch chest crusher.
-- You'll be off tow shortly after your bridle starts pulling your basetube back so the Koch chest crusher doesn't offer much control advantage.
-- It could make it a little harder to get your parachute out - and we've just seen how important it is to get your parachute out on winch tows.
-- If you slam into the ground chest first at over forty miles an hour a Koch chest crusher might penetrate your parachute and crush your chest.

- Stamp your left foot twice to signal your driver that you're safely connected to both your glider and the towline.

- When your release stays locked and you start climbing over the winch signal your driver with your legs to let him know that your release is locked and you're climbing over the winch while he's watching in helpless horror.

- Always fly with a radio so - without using your legs - you can periodically remind your driver that your release is locked and you're climbing over the winch while he's watching in helpless horror.

- Always fly with an appropriate failsafe because that can be counted on to blow if there's still enough tension to keep you in trouble after the driver freewheels the winch.

- Pull your parachute deployment bag out of the container with both hands because at this point it doesn't make much difference whether your hands are on the basetube or not.

- Always:
-- toss your deployment bag through the nose wires
-- use a hose clamps to secure the wheels because one of them will cut towline seven seconds prior to impact
-- endeavor to miss powerlines when you're descending under nylon

- Try to come down on a wingtip so the outboard leading edge will snap and absorb most of the shock.

- If you want your fellow pilots to benefit from an incident report don't leave it to your highly experienced instructors and highly safety conscious flight school to circulate anything.

Check out the 2:07 mark, holding onto one down tube would have prevented the head to the keel event.

- After you throw your chute hold onto one downtube to prevent a head to keel event when/if it opens.

No hook knife?

- If you have a hook knife duct tape it to the winch where it might do you - or somebody else - some actual good.

Thanks for posting.

On no. The pleasure is all mine.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

phantomflier - 2013/06/29 20:02:09 UTC

Hey all, long time, but I still lurk.

Yeah, me too.

This exact same thing happened to me in '05.

At Mission?

The knot was wrong and it cinched up on the tow line trying to feed through after I released.

Did anybody consider using a tow ring instead of a loop tied by a total moron?

I was a new H2, and after a year of no HG, was just getting back into it. I was under instruction, but was not given a hook knife.

You didn't get a tow ring. Why would you expect to get a hook knife?

I waved the legs, and tow operator knew something was wrong...

Something was wrong when you hooked up to a loop instead of a tow ring.

...and immediately cut tension, then cut line, but I did not know this.

How come he was able to cut tension and then the line before the failsafe kicked in?

Instinctively I just did 360's over the winch and then set up a short final, hoping that what happened here did not happen to me. I was dragging a thousand feet of line, but thankfully nothing snagged, and I was down.

I don't remember if I had a reserve chute or not as it was a borrowed school harness. Mine was not nearly as dramatic an outcome as this, but both could have been eliminated by a simple hook knife. I will never fly again w/o one.

Why don't we just retitle this thread "hook knives"?

Allen Sparks - 2013/06/29 20:41:00 UTC

Raptor Hook Knife. The best. There is an improved 1-blade design.

No totally incompetent tow pilot or operator should ever be without two or three.

http://www.safetyknife.com/Raptor.asp

Aluminum (not plastic) - will not deform or jam.

So it's beyond the scope of human engineering to design a bulletproof tow release... But the infallible hook knife - NO PROBLEM.

I practice reaching for it.

I practice:
- developing tow equipment that doesn't stink on ice
- assembling and preflighting my gear
- demolishing scum like Davis, Rooney, Paul, Lauren, Trisa
so I never hafta reach for anything and stay in maximum control of my aircraft at all times during critical phases of flight.

If you ever deploy a reserve, have it in hand before landing in wind. A retractable leash is recommended.

If you can manage to get a hook knife in hand - or at least use a failsafe - why would you ever NEED to deploy a reserve?

Christopher Albers - 2013/06/29 20:59:30 UTC
Lawrenceville, Georgia

I was trained to ALWAYS use TWO hands to pull the deployment handle...

How many hands were you trained to keep on the basetube...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

...at all times and in all circumstances on tow? Just kidding.

...guess this confirms it.

Yes. Because you've seen ONE video of ONE panicked locked out new Hang Two having difficulty with one hand you have CONFIRMATION that it can't be done - and thus no incentive to practice with one at a clinic.

Why no hook knife?

Yeah, let's keep talking about what to do WHEN you fuck things up and totally omit the discussions about how best NOT TO fuck up.

That would have been the first thing I tried after release failure.

Sorry dude. "Release failure" - like "unhooked launch" - isn't in my vocabulary. I've read enough fatality reports to understand that I can't afford to have either and put my focus entirely on prevention. Discussions about release failures, hook knives, unhooked launches, and climbing into control frames I find to be counterproductive.

Seems like you'd at least want an option before deployment.

NO. I NEVER want an option of using a hook knife. If I ever did enough stupid things to put myself in a situation in which one might be of some use I wouldn't wanna survive anyway.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/06/29 21:02:36 UTC

I get the feeling there are changes happening as we read this..

Undoubtedly. It's a no brainer that Trisa and Tim Herr are going through the SOPs with a fine toothed comb to find and delete any references to surface towing equipment and procedures.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

agila - 2013/06/29 22:02:46 UTC
San Antonio

Hook knife and secondary release is always a must.

- In that order.
- And "secondary" and "backup" are synonyms.

I prefer to release with a secondary release though...

Me too. I get this really cool adrenalin rush while I'm waiting to see if the bottom end of my bridle clears the tow ring. I prefer it so much that I now call my secondary my primary and my primary my emergency release - for obvious reasons.

it's easier and faster.

Yeah, you've got that barrel right on your shoulder and that brake lever is way the hell over on your downtube...

Been in a bad situation and secondary release bailed me out.

You keep doing that, motherfucker. Some day we're gonna gonna get a really spectacular video and a whole bunch of other morons commenting about how he was doing what he loved.

Zack C - 2012/08/19 19:34:07 UTC

Agila is a pilot from San Antonio and a member of our aerotow club. He wasn't interested in learning from you, but maybe he'll learn from me.

I really hope not. I hope he keeps learning from somebody like Lauren Tjaden, Brad Gryder, Sam Kellner...

Harold Wickham - 2013/06/29 22:20:05 UTC
Las Vegas

Hook Knife, Radio, back up release, weak link can be broken with a controlled stall, tow operator release...

1. People on both ends of the line who know what the fuck they're doing, primary release...

2. Shove the hook knife and radio up your ass.

3. Yeah their are all kinds of ways to break the weak link - and every single one of them WILL kill you under ordinary circumstances you can expect to encounter.

"Nobody Plans to Fail.... Many just Fail to Plan"

And a lot of the plans in hang gliding - backup loops, locking carabiners, hang checks, standard aerotow weak links, releases within easy reach, backup releases, tug drivers deeply concerned with your safety, standup and spot landings - are a thousand times worse than no plan at all.

Fred Bickford - 2013/06/29 23:09:34 UTC

The main issue I see is a poor preflight, which the pilot admitted doing wrong in the first sentence of the video description.

I was towing and I'd attached the link to the towline incorrectly.

Bullshit. The main issue is that he attached the LINK to the tow line incorrectly. And if he doesn't know how to attach it correctly he's extremely unlikely to be able to tell that it's incorrectly attached when he looks at it.

And we have this main issue because the dumb motherfuckers at Mission KNOW...

Glenn Zapien - 2013/06/29 16:34:21 UTC

When I was towing, I volunteered for catching the line and helping hook the next pilot up for tow. One out of ten would hook that release wrong.

...that - due to their shitty "training" - there's gonna be a ten percent failure rate on that attachment. And if the dumb motherfuckers at Mission are incapable of training people to connect a three string at a zero percent failure rate I have no idea what makes them think they're competent enough to train and qualify people to pilot hang gliders on tow.

And the fact that he's referring to that piece of equipment as a "LINK" should be setting off really load alarm bells. You DO NOT TOW with someone who refers to:
- a release as a link
- a release as a bridle
- a secondary release as a backup
- a release actuator as being within easy reach
- a release as being anything less than one hundred percent bulletproof
- a hook knife as an item of tow equipment
- in-flight radio communications as having any safety value
- a standard aerotow weak link
- weak link strength in terms of numbers of strands of 130 pound Greenspot
- a weak link as the focal point of a safe towing system
- the precise tolerances of weak link material
- a weak link blow as an inconvenience
- one point as protow
- two point as three point
- Center of Mass towing
- tension as pressure
- a hang check as a hook-in check
- his depth of experience
- accepted standards
- himself as we
- anyone as a test pilot
- a lockout victim dying because he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over
- accidents - particularly ones of the freak variety
- speculation as a deplorable activity
- the feelings of some Darwin case's family
- reality trumping theory
- a concept which can only be understood by highly experienced professional pilots
- anyone's opinion
- a tug driver as being excellent
- the safety of the person at the front end of the string
- a towed hang glider pilot as a muppet
- his ability to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope
- Jim Gaar as anything other than a stupid sleazy scumbag
- Jim Rooney having a keen intellect
- Bobby Bailey as a fucking genius
- Towing Aloft as an excellent book
- Donnell Hewett as being well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Jerry Furnell - 2013/06/30 02:08:07 UTC

Check out the power lines next to his 'arrival' spot.

Yeah. There are a lot of them stretched out across the countryside. Probably best not to get into a situation in which you're coming down under nylon. With a hang glider you almost always have a lot more say about where you're gonna come down.

Lucky.

Yeah. We coulda fried TWO Hang Twos in the space of nine days.

Perhaps problem avoided with a mandatory pre-flight/pre-tow check?

What do ya mean, "PERHAPS"? Preflights ARE mandatory for every flight for Hang One and up.

Jerry Furnell - 2013/06/30 02:19:43 UTC

I might add that more time was probably spent ensuring that his Go-Pro was on, than that his hook-on was right.

I might add that it wouldn't have made any difference. If he couldn't see the problem when he was hooking up then the chances of him seeing the problem by looking at it were shit.

In fact I will venture to say that NO pre-flight was done.

I would venture to say that it probably WAS. This guy appears to be pretty conscientious to me. Hell, he went to a parachute clinic just two weeks before he found himself going live.

Priorities all wrong.

His priorities are a thousand times better than those of any of the pigfuckers at Mission. He's the one who posted the video and detailed report. Go to Mission's website and nothing happened. They're still talking about their state of the art equipment and paramount dedication to safety.

At our recent aerotowing training day, we severely chastised novices who were busy nattering on about their cameras rather focusing on their pre-flight.

What were they missing? It's almost impossible to set up a modern hang glider with any errors that matter. And virtually all of you motherfuckers down there run off launches minus the one check that REALLY matters...

Hang Gliding Fail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
andyh0p - 2011/04/24
dead

02-0325

05-0511

09-0919


...and you're rabidly hostile to anyone who suggests you do it.

This video is a good reminder of the importance of pre-flight checks.

This video that we wouldn't have if this novice hadn't:
- dedicated a lot of time and focus to his camera
- posted it on Vimeo - instead of removing the memory card and swallowing it
- come down so far away from the tow strip that Harold wasn't able to remove the memory card and swallow it

Whether it's a 747 or a hang glider, it's always a must do.

This IS NOT a Preflight issue. This is a Wasn't-Trained-How-To-Use-The-Fucking-Equipment issue.

And it was also a Crappy-Equipment-For-The-Job-Issue.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Janica Lee - 2013/06/30 03:30:41 UTC

Pilots who take time to thoroughly pre-flight should be applauded, not made fun of (cough..dd..cough )

Preflight this guy's towing assembly:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


He's gonna be dead the afternoon after he uploads the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0


...from which I pulled the frame. I see seven serious defects which CAN and HAVE killed people. Two of them will combine to kill him.

Take all the time you want. The professionals and experts have been working on the problem for two days shy of five months now and come up totally empty, but... Who knows? You could get some flashes of insight, lucky, whatever...

I'll narrow it down for you. It's not the tow ring.

And if you're still totally stumped a after a couple of days... Fuggetaboutit. Spend three hours checking all of your safety rings and batten profiles.



Just make sure you have a good quality hook knife and you'll probably be just fine.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/06/30 03:39:07 UTC

It's probably been said a few times already...

But let's make sure we keep saying it a few more hundred times.

but really: HOOK KNIFE.

Felix Cantesanu - H3 - 2012/10/08 - Adam Elchin - AT FL

Tell Adam and the rest of those sleazy Ridgely assholes to go fuck themselves.

I only aerotow, recently started pro-towing, only behind a Dragonfly...

So far, so good. Sure don't see any problems with that.

...in both cases there's two releases and a weak link.

- Like this?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


- Why are you using TWO "releases" and ONE weak link? You only need weak link protection BEFORE a bridle wrap?

- Or is Ridgely now ALSO warning people that when weak links detect other weak links on other ends of bridles they double their strength and become ineffective lockout preventers?

- What's the purpose of the weak link? To keep you from getting too far out of whack?

- What are you using for a weak link? (Just kidding.)

- How many pounds of towline tension does it limit you to? (Just kidding.)

- You're flying a U2 160. Max certified operating weight: 328 pounds. Your Rooney Link puts you at a tiny bit south of legal. How good an idea is that?

- You're hooking in at 215 to 220 pounds. 0.9 Gs flying weight. Is that a good idea?

This kind of towing doesn't use a weak link or two releases??

- So the purpose of a second release is to work after you fuck up the primary?
- If you fuck up the primary aren't you almost certain to fuck up the secondary as well?
- What's the plan if you fuck up connecting your carabiner to your hang strap at McConnellsburg?
- At want point was a weak link supposed to sense that Lin needed the safety of his towing operation increased and increase it?

Glad to hear the pilot is OK. Looks like he went down head first?

What's it look like Ben Dunn is doing?



- Pick one. Go down head first like:
-- Lin Lyons under nylon
-- Ben Dunn whipstalled and hoping his glider will pull out in time

- Why are you talking about Lin's situation and totally ignoring Ben's?

Are we not worried about Zack Marzec because he landed...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...right side up after whipstalling, tailsliding, and tumbling a couple of times?

Here's your ENTIRE contribution to the Zack Marzec postmortem discussion:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28243
I Hope This Isn't So :-(

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/02/03 05:42:41 UTC

This is tragic. So very sorry for his family and friends, so much suffering.
Huge eye opener, the sport is safe(er), but not that safe...

How come you weren't advocating more releases and safer Rooney Links on that one?

Which scares you more? Not being able to hook your primary/only release up without converting it to a locking mechanism and ending up like Lin Lyons did or doing everything "right" with your pro toad bridle, two Industry Standard bent pin releases, and Rooney Link angle of attack limiter and ending up like Zack Marzec did?

I dunno about you but fucking up my release connection is one of the mistakes in hang gliding I'm LEAST afraid of. I'm only scared shitless of the stuff over which somebody else has control.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Tom Low - 2013/06/30 04:13:47 UTC
Belmont, California

If you can. better if you can throw the chute behind the control bar rather than in front. Lucky the bridal wasn't cut be the side wire the way it was done.

Bridle, by, and flat webbing tends not to be that vulnerable to wires, but... Yes.

Joel DeWitt - 2013/06/30 04:22:23 UTC

I was out there the day after that event, and it was all the buzz.

Not enough of a buzz to be worthy of a public report however.

This particular scenario has always made me nervous when towing.

Then I would spend less time practicing your foot landings and more time learning how to hook up with a three-string.

There is in fact a weak link in the tow system...

Wanna say anything about pounds, Gs, purpose? Just kidding.

...but I've never seen one break in the maybe dozen days I've towed at Tres Pinos.

Must be...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...using really dangerous stronglinks then. How many fatal lockouts would you estimate occurred over the course of that period?

I have rehearsed using my hook knife to escape a stuck release.

I'm guessing you've also rehearsed climbing into your control frame to escape a fatal plummet after an unhooked launch?

I think I'd need to cut three ropes to get away: each side of the bridle, and the release cord itself.

I think you need to spend three times as much time practicing cutting ropes then.

The actual tow line is out of reach.

What if you just focused more on taking off with releases configured to work? (Just kidding.)

Every harness should have a hook knife...

And every glider should have a backup loop.

...which is tied to the harness so it can't get lost at the moment of need.

In a moment of real need you're gonna be dead five seconds before you can even start thinking about your idiot fucking hook knife.

Anyone who flies near the ocean should probably have a blade too, in case you need to cut through your sail or out of your harness to avoid drowning.

Yeah, but don't expect to survive going down into the ocean no matter how well armed you are.

I'm really glad this guy came through OK.

I'm really unhappy that Mission's coming through this smelling like a rose.

He actually came out the next weekend with the intent to fly.

So why didn't he?

That's really bold!

Just what we need - more bold pilots.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

itttem - 2013/06/30 06:42:30 UTC
San Francisco

I am happy student of Harold...

How would you rate him in comparison to the other instructors you've had, particularly the ones using Koch two stage releases?

...and I just wanted to voice a couple of opinions.

A happy student of Harold's who wants to voice a couple of opinions. Who'da thunk.

I do not disagree with the recommendations given by other pilots here like:

1)hook knife
2)triple release

- Big surprise.

- Any comments on the recommendations given by other pilots NOT here, particularly the Extremist One Percent who...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site.

...are not allowed on that site?

3. Where are you with respect to the recommendations given by Jack?

4. What's your disagreement with using the best equipment for the operation and making fucking sure you know how to use it and fucking doing so?

But there are a couple of things that are not obvious to most people.

No shit.

1) That the tow cable is VERY long, even if Harold or anyone sees a pilot with legs out of the harness its still not easy to gage the situation, actually the reaction time seems fair given the distances.

Lin Lyons - 2013/06/20 18:38 UTC

I kicked my feet out of the harness to indicate that I had a problem. (But they already knew that.)

Also, note that the pilot release the quick release which in this case would have safe the whole thing.

I'm sorry, could you make that sentence a little less coherent so it blends in more seamlessly with your other statements?

2) Agreed that radio would have been useful, but in HG once you leave the training hill or tow instruction, you are on your own, and Mission Soaring is really good at teaching people how to take responsibility for their actions and become a pilot.

I'll bet they are.

- It's amazing how well they dump their own responsibility for doing a shit job equipping, training, and checking him and ensuring that the equipment on their end of the string is properly geared for emergency situations.

- And I really like the way they're doing absolutely nothing in the way of reporting or participating in this most valuable "Hook Knives" thread and thus getting us to work our way towards an understanding of why Lin hasn't mentioned them and they had no way of zeroing the tension at their end.

Not a radio puppet.

A puppet... That's a little person at the end of some strings entirely under control of someone else who pulls on them?

No disrespect to instructor that use radios, both methods work, but no radio from day one IMHO is the way to go.

What the fuck does radio communication - or absence thereof - have to do with this discussion?

- "Harold, this is Lin - Lin Lyons, the guy on tow right now. My release is locked up, I'm locking out over the pulley, and I'm still under a lot of tension."

- "Yeah, I copy. I'm watching you in horror now. SOP at Mission. Do the best you can, we've got your emergency contact info on file at the office. Try to be careful about the powerlines in the neighborhood where you seem to be going down. We got a lot of complaints a couple weekends ago the last time this happened."

This is a productive discussion to further the sport appreciate this website tremendously

Of course you do. It's specifically tailored for happy students of Harolds'.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Tom Lyon - 2013/06/30 06:58:26 UTC
Michigan

I saw a hang glider winch launch set up once and expressed surprise that their wasn't a guillotine. That's standard with sailplanes.

Yeah, well sailplaning is for FAGS. This is hang gliding - and the greater the risks...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...the greater the attraction. That's why we use releases that don't work on the rare occasions we can get to them and weak links that put our stall recovery and emergency landing skills to the test on one out of two or three flights. Sailplaning is one step up from checkers - if that.

The pilot still would have been in a dire situation dragging that much line, but his situation might not have deteriorated to a dive toward the ground so quickly.

What's next? STRAIGHT release pins? Hook-in checks JUST PRIOR to launch? Go fuck yourself, dude.