And I thought the knife was for After the crash! He sure could have used a hook-knife before.
OR... He could've connected his three-string properly Before the flight.
Dan Barker - 72954 - 2006/07/31 - H3 - 1999/06/19 - Matthew Taber - AT FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
Just kidding.
Deltaman - 2013/07/01 21:29:02 UTC
Davis Straub - 2013/07/01 13:13:45 UTC
Why not a simple barrel release?
Cause a simple barrel release will assume all the towing tension (or a half with a bridle) ..and a bent pin barrel release (Bailey style) has a VERY POOR ratio [Load]/[Actuation effort] = 6.2, not at all suitable with possible high towing tensions.
That's why we have Rooney Links - to make sure that you can't ever see the dangerously high tensions capable of getting a glider up to dangerously high altitudes.
So, in a lockout situation, with a sleeping man at the winch side, the tension will increase badly, and you just couldn't release ..what is particularly insane for a 'release'. (Just have a test on your bathroom directly with your own weight.)
Always prefer a straight rather than a bent pin. Ratio = 20.4 = 3.3 x (bent pin release ratio) !
Numbers... What do "NUMBERS" have to do with hang gliding?
I'm also sure it has it's problems just like any other system. The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.
The minute someone starts telling me about his "perfect" system, I start walking away. It's when somebody starts telling me about his system with a forty percent failure rate that my ears perk up, we get drunk and talk about shock loads and towing muppets we don't trust to release themselves, and then make passionate love until the wee hours of the morning.
Davis says that he saw someone lock-out and be unable to release with a Koch once.
And what Davis tends not to say is that they were foot launching in certifiably insane conditions with dust devils blowing across the launch path every ten minutes and not using ribbons.
So yeah, the Koch COULD be better engineered and it DID hang up and a devastating brain injury WAS a consequence. But you could've dolly launched using the best release on the planet, blown it successfully with both hands on the basetube in minimum human reaction time, and wound up dead anyway playing around with bullshit like that.
Release malfunctions in ANY circumstances ARE deadly serious but if one has the kinds of consequences it did for Mike Nooy or Robin Strid it's almost a no brainer that the operation's safety margins were already paper thin.
I've always wondered if it was a genuine Koch or a copy, as I've always had faith in the genuine article.
ANY release malfunction that happens in the air can be EASILY simulated on the ground. And if it can be simulated on the ground it's a real bad idea to have faith in the equipment in the air.
I also think that throwing the reserve could be the best choice low down as there may not be time for any other action.
1. Fuck the chute. There's no excuse for the person at either end not being able to dump the line. And astronomically no excuse for neither person being able to dump it.
2. Lin WAS NOT *LOW* when things took a sharp turn to the south. He was at a thousand feet. If he HAD been low he could've had the best color hook knife money could buy and a ballistic chute and he'd have been dead.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/01 22:11:10 UTC
Pilot from the Netherlands, so likely it was a genuine article.
How come we don't know EXACTLY what it was? Not a serious enough crash to merit the follow-up?
Of course, the barrel release would have worked just fine for the situation in the video.
How would it have worked in the situation on:
- 2004/06/26 at Cushing Field for Mike Haas?
- 2004/08/02 at Finger Lakes for Davis Straub?
- 2009/01/03 at Forbes for Steve Elliot?
- 2005/05/29 at Manquin for Holly Korzilius?
- 2013/05/0- at Luling for Ben Dunn if he had been fifteen feet lower?
A couple of Davis's favorite tricks...
- Specify "for the situation in the video" and studiously ignore the stuff that happens all the time on and over the runways to people who are configured by the Davis book.
- Count the only malfunction of a conventional two stage he can document as a release failure because it was quickly actuated and hung up but ignore Davis Release shit like Paul having no chance to get to his release in a lockout and Lauren not being able to pry hers open because those were deficiencies only of the "pilot". Kinda like if you build a crappy brake system into a car and have it engaged by a hand lever behind the passenger's seat. There's never gonna be anyone killed by plowing into a telephone pole 'cause the hydraulic system wasn't up to snuff.
Looks great, Davis. So how come:
- we don't see or hear any reference to this crap in:
-- http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/ - the Blue Sky / Wills Wing award winning scooter tow video or accompanying manual?
-- ANY training operation?
- the Koch two stage is virtually universal for everyone - students and up - at all halfway competent stationary winch towing operations and we're not hearing any significant incidents reported?
...not at all suitable with possible high towing tensions.
I beg to differ.
Great. I'd be massively disappointed in him if you didn't.
The possibilities of high towing tensions are the reason we have weak links.
- Get fucked, you twisted little shit. THE reason - the ONLY reason - "we" have weak links is to PREVENT OVERLOAD.
- You might wanna ease off on the first person plural bullshit. There are fewer and fewer people out there who wanna be tainted by an alignment with you.
And the lockouts that won't snap weak links (because they don't create high tensions)...
Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.
There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.
...Ryan is telling everyone. And I never heard you telling him he was full of shit.
...won't bend bent pin releases...
'Specially not if you're not stupid enough to start with them pre bent.
...so I don't really see the issue here...
Hell, you still don't see any issue with the Zack Marzec fatality - or the fake invisible dust devil your Quest/USHGA pigfucker buddies are trying to use to scam everybody.
oh... right, I forgot... I do see the issue... People that don't want to use weaklinks.
NAME and QUOTE one of them - motherfucker.
Oh, but I will agree...
Whatever it is, I'm taking the opposite position.
...go test it for yourself with your own weight and make up your own mind as to if you're happy with it or not.
- Yeah. Hang yourself from a tree and pull it open.
Real professional. And it took your dickhead buddies a decade and a half to do that much.
- And, of course, if you, Joe Glider Driver, are HAPPY with a critical piece of aviation equipment... COOL! You're good to go! It's not like we need any actual engineering standards - along the lines of the ones once endorsed by the USHGA Towing Committee and published in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.
Straight pins do release easier. They have their own problems, but that isn't one of them.
- Shouldn't you be TELLING us what these alleged "PROBLEMS" are so we can weigh the risks and make informed/educated decisions?
- Has anyone actually had a failure in the air? How come you pin benders aren't referencing it at every opportunity the way Davis does with the Mike Nooy Koch two stage incident?
- Or is it just that somebody determined to jam it can do something comparable to what Lin Lyons did with his three-string - 'cept very deliberately and obvious rather than accidentally and missable (by both pilot and driver) - and put it out of action?
As for this guy... yeah, where's his bloody hook knife?
Yep. Whenever you're flying Industry Standard equipment - especially the New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release which is not warranted as suitable for towing anything - you always wanna make damn sure that you have your bloody hook knife. Imagine being on the New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release which is not warranted as suitable for towing anything in a lockout at a hundred feet and not having your bloody hook knife.
BTW, the PG guys make far superior knives to the plastic ones HGs use...
I'll bet they do. Since they don't use airframes they've got all this excess metal lying around and they've gotta do something with it. And they've got this unwritten code that their releases have gotta suck almost as much as ours - so far superior hook knives it is!
...anything beats nothing however.
Did Zack Marzec's Rooney Link beat Lin Lyons' locked up three-string? Pose the question to both incident subjects.
And kudos for remembering his chute instead of panicking all the way to the earth.
Who says you can't do both?
Youse guys' posts, of course, are getting way ahead of mine. But I am keeping up with the reading of course and, I gotta tell ya, you and Davis are looking as pathetic as I've ever seen you. It would probably be as good a time as any to remind everybody that Tad is a convicted paedophile. It hasn't really accomplished what you've wanted it to before but... who knows? And besides... what do you have to lose?
BTW, In both instances I was using an off the shoulders, pro tow type bridle with Bailey release. I've always felt that it was quick and easy to use this type of bridle and release. It was right under my nose and took only a split second to pull it. There was never any delay or anxiety caused by taking my hand off the base tube to reach for it. I quickly had both my hands back on the bar and don't feel it contributed to any loss of control.
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...when you're playing for keeps!
Except that those seldom fails.
WHY does it fail? 'Cause of the engineering or a misconfiguration of the pilot? If it's something:
- we can fix we need to fix it.
- people are doing wrong we need to circulate advisories.
And I'm not buying that failures are things we're incapable of doing anything about.
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC
Toronto
As someone already posted on this thread, the most appropriate type of release is a two stage like the Koch.
As anyone with half a brain or better knows perfectly goddam well.
What he has here is the rope pushing down on basebar when he gets higher which makes the situation infinitely worse during a lockout.
That IS the lockout.
As far as weak links are concerned they work great for airtow...
WORK GREAT TO DO *WHAT*? How fuckin' great did they work for Zack Marzec or Ben Dunn?
...but are nearly useless for winch towing unless the line is fully snagged.
Fuck this. The goddam weak link does ONE THING - it breaks at its breaking point. It doesn't give a rat's ass what flavor of towing you're doing, whether or not the glider is locked out, rocketing up, barrel looping, being dragged, pulling out line, in static mode because of a winch jam, or doing fine.
If the weak link blows at three hundred pounds towline it'll blow when the towline tension hits three hundred pounds. Any statements, predictions beyond that are crap.
I fly in Ontario...
Yeah. Mike Robertson. I can tell.
...and we use two stage releases for winch towing exclusively. During transition phase, the "snap" pressure is so high that you need about 350 pounds weak link to survive the transition (I think it's like 450 pounds for tandems).
And, of course, why would anybody even CONSIDER doing it like THIS:
I don't think you're going to exceed 350 pounds during a lockout like that, especially if the winch has a pressure...
Yeah. Pressure.
...limiter, which it should. So again, a weak link would not save you in this case.
It's function has absolutely nothing to do with saving you. If it does it does so by accident. And I don't depend on accidents for my safety.
What will save you is a solid two stage release that works every time...
While you're flying the glider with one hand and calculating what you're gonna be needing to do when you start flying with two hands again.
...and will release with no tension.
Yes, but I'm not terribly interested in that capability 'cause we're not seeing a hell of a lot of gliders slamming in because of slack line issues.
I know of guys that tried using barrels for winch towing and they personally testified they were very difficult to release...
Ya know what? Two decades ago when I got my first GLANCE at an idiot fucking Bailey bent pin barrel "release" I knew they'd be fucking useless under tension and how to fix the problems. I didn't in my worst nightmares believe that I'd hafta be trying to explain things to you douchebags for a dozen years and making zilch headway - even with a small handful of sane people helping.
...not to mention you can't drop them instantly if the line has slack in it.
Bullshit. They're not as good as a Koch in that department but if you've got a couple of pounds of towline tension you can lose it.
Looking at the video though I'm amazed what operator was thinking.
I'm amazed that after what they've been doing for decades you'd expect that anyone at Mission was capable of doing any thinking of any kind.
He should have chopped that rope, as our winches are equipped with built in line cutter and operators have two hook knifes within reach at all times and are trained to cut it at first signs of scenario like this developing, which seems to point to lack of training in this method of operation.
Points to something...
The Mission Soaring Hang Gliding school provides professional training on state-of-the-art equipment at our dedicated training site at Tres Pinos just south of the San Jose / San Francisco Bay Area.
Can you give a few more details of this incident?
Mechanical jam, loop around a handle, was it the cause of the accident or was it just the release type he happened to be using at the time?
The possibilities of high towing tensions are the reason we have weak links.
And the lockouts that won't snap weak links (because they don't create high tensions) won't bend bent pin releases, so I don't really see the issue here...
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC
During transition phase, the "snap" pressure is so high that you need about 350 pounds weak link to survive the transition...
So at 349lb the actuation force needed with a bent pin release (+bridle) is: 349/2/6.2= 28lb !!! (8.5lb with a straight pin barrel)
...so I don't really see the issue here...
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC
I know of guys that tried using (bent pin) barrels for winch towing and they personally testified they were very difficult to release...
...so I don't really see the issue here...
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
...so I don't really see the issue here...
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
...so I don't really see the issue here...
Just have a look how easy it already is with low tension:
Forget the 30sec Hook Knife's magic power but worry about reliability of all your equipment before to go.
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC
As far as weak links are concerned they work great for airtow...
Please don't say that (if you refer to a 130lb Greenspot) in respect of the memory of Zack Marzec.
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/07/02 05:12:06 UTC
With a dolly and the line under the base bar from the start, a koch or similar release and viola!
Yes, dolly or platform launch ..and Preflight (for the release system too), all for safety
Jim Rooney - 2013/07/02 11:31:40 UTC
Macsucks... please look again. You're jumping to conclusions.
That's bordering on speculation. I think you've got reasonable grounds to refuse to tow him now.
I wasn't advocating weaklinks for truck towing.
Really? I was pretty sure you'd advocate weak links for just about anything - including balloon drops and glider suspension. And all the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot by virtues of the precision of its manufacturing, identifiability, and huge track record.
Deltaman was advocating straight pin realeases because "high tension" tows can bend curved pins. I was merely pointing out that any time we have the possibility of high tension we use weak links.
Yeah. Especially at...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
...the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation.
Of course we don't have this during truck towing, which is why we don't normally need weaklinks.
But you NORMALLY *NEED* weak links on aerotow. If you're breaking fewer than...
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
...six in a row in light morning conditions it's definitely time to dumb them down about ten percent. If you're not breaking one in the course of a flight you might as well not be using one.
Aaaaaand here we go with Deltaman not reading what I've actually wrote.
Trust me, Jimmy. There are people hanging on your every word - and comparing it to every other word you've actually written. And Deltaman and Yours Truly are twenty of them. And you've got a record of so many contradictions, gems of stupidity, and despicable lies that there is NOTHING that you can say that can't be used to dismantle you.
You've had lotsa fun with you're little Ponzi scheme over the course of the previous decade but it's collapsing now and there are gonna be prices to be paid.
By the way... You might wanna try either what I actually wrote or what I've actually written. But hell, you're the one with the keen intellect. What do I know?
I was NOT... I repeat NOT advocating weaklinks for truck towing.
Oh, go ahead. You've fucked aerotowing to the extent that things can only go north at this point so you might as well work on truck towing for a while. But be advised of this...
- The guys who build, maintain, own, drive truck tow rigs tend to be hang glider - not powered ultralight pilots - and they don't get paid to or enjoy pulling hang gliders up all day. They swap off with the guys they're towing so they can get towed.
- They don't have stupid egomaniacal little johnny-come-lately shits pretending to have Keen Intellects and deep insights into towing dictating one-size-fits-all Rooney Link lockout protectors.
- Anybody who tells them they can't use homemade equipment is gonna find his head on a pike real fast because ALL the equipment - winches, hydraulic systems, retrieval chutes, releases, weak links - is homemade - which is why it works and evolves FORWARD.
- Weak links are understood to be of virtually no use and a major threat if they increase the safety of the towing operation so they use ones that don't break.
- Truck towing has a longer history than aero and the people in it tend to know what it is because it evolved with individuals, partnerships, and clubs and wasn't controlled by a bunch of high priests running a cartel from the get-go.
But keep running your mouth and having a bit of fun while you still can.
Deltaman was scaremongering about breaking bent pin releases.
Yeah Deltaman. Stop scaremongering about Industry Standard releases locking up and Rooney Links doing the opposite and start scaremongering about invisible dust devils. Demand that Quest rototills all of its turf and converts its airport into another Santa Cruz Flats so we can see the invisible dust devils and prevent more Zack Marzec freak accidents.
I was pointing out that if we use bent pins in a high stress environment, we also use weaklinks, so they NEVER see those kinds of loads.
- And when you find that your tow mast breakaway is breaking away at the tension it was allegedly designed to break away you use weak links three quarters of the strength you originally found ideal for tandems.
- What kinds of loads? Can we get something in pounds? (Just kidding.)
- 320 pound solo glider. When you use a Rooney Link to protect your two and a half dollar bent pin from the high stresses of that extremely hazardous environment in which you brave lads operate, how much overlap do you have available at the bottom end of the FAA legal range (if any)?
- How much more dangerous are these highly problematic straight pin releases than all the forced landings and extra relight launches the Rooney Links required to protect these Industry Standard pins precipitate?
- Obviously the only people who ever crash and get hurt as a consequence of inadequately managing the inconvenience of Rooney bent pin protector pops are muppets with no towing and mediocre landing abilities but - seeing as how the Ridgely tandems flew for years with pairs of my problematic straight pin barrels with no reported problems - I'm guessing that it's also muppets who are turning my high capacity barrels into locking mechanisms. Right now:
-- ALL the aerotow launch crashes are consequences of muppets unable to handle Rooney bent pin protector pops.
-- NO aerotow launch crashes are consequences of muppets being locked out with dangerous Morningside stronglinks requiring problematic high capacity Tadpin releases.
Wouldn't it make sense to add Morningside stronglinks and Tadpin releases into the mix until we achieved a balance of stall and lockout muppet kills? The fatality rate would remain the same but the line would move faster and you'd save gas and wear and tear on the Dragonfly.
But then, some people read to understand, while others read to respond.
Unfortunately what we have here is the latter.
Oh, GOD! I get so turned on when you talk all profound like that! How much does Davis pay you to suck HIS dick? I'll TRIPLE it! Quadruple if I don't hafta use a condom.
A truck tow has NO weak-link! Am I reading this correctly?
Really hard to tell when Rooney's the author if you check back to see if you can get a handle on things you'll find that he's flatly contradicting himself every other post - sometimes over other paragraph.
What happens if there is a winch foul up, what part of the system is going to break or jam first?
Yeah, sorry Jim, I went and re-read your original post and just the way it's worded is rather confusing and sounds like you're advocating weaklinks as solution for this.
His entire existence is totally dependent upon maintaining states of confusion. When the waters start clearing a bit people start understanding that he's totally incapable of comprehending grade school arithmetic. And that thought totally terrifies him.
And I am one hundred percent totally serious about that.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 14:37:14 UTC
Just a tad bit.
Get used to it, Davis. You can threaten and ban people, kill productive discussions, and wall your cult "forum" off from the public... But the more you do that the more of an empty boring wasteland The Davis Show becomes and the more people looking for something substantive come over here.
And the more people come over here and read the farther your empty facade gets flushed down the toilet where it belongs.
And tell Gerry to go fuck himself too.
Davis Straub - 2013/07/02 15:08:42 UTC
I thought it was pretty weird to have a high winch tow setup where there was the tow line over the top of the bar. Seems like it led to the obvious situation of the nose going down when there was a problem.
Duh. That was pretty fucking obvious to people like Mike Lake who were there at the birth of modern hang glider towing and actually put solutions into the air.
A few years ago I showed a picture of Steve Wendt's set up with the two stage release with the three ring circus below the bar and a shorter barrel release/bridle above the bar that was released early.
How 'bout linking to a video of someone actually using it?
I understand the point of having a three ring circus that works under high pressure (although not under no pressure).
So at a depth of fifteen hundred feet it would work fine but up at the surface it would be almost impossible to pry open?
I haven't winched towed high with just a barrel release and bridle over the bar, just low and slow, and that worked fine.
Great. No telling where a data point that valuable could take us.
I have aerotowed with plenty of force on the line with just the barrel release and bridle and there was no problem releasing.
Quest pulled tens of thousands of protoads with Davis Link pitch and lockout protectors with no problem getting away from the runway.
Mission pulled tens of thousands of students and Twos on their stationary winch with no guillotine or hook knife available on the winch for an emergency tension dump without coming close to locking out an killing anybody.
Jonathan Orders did thousands of tandem launches in British Columbia without hook-in checks without dropping anybody a thousand feet to her death.
But for some odd reason these flights tend not to be the ones we have big discussions about and burn themselves into our memories for the rest of our lives.
I have yet to hear of or see any actual experience with pilots winch towing with the barrel release above the bar and having any problem with releasing under pressure.
I have yet to hear of or see any actual experience with pilots aerotowing without a keel attachment and without a midrange weak link capable of holding the glider on tow through a steep thermal induced climb blowing off into a fatal whipstall.
Has anyone?
Fuck no. Whenever anyone starts suggesting these things threads get locked down and forums wall themselves off from the public. And we never hear any hints of such things in the magazine or in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden.
We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.
It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.
So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
...theoretical. And hang gliding isn't based on THEORY - hang gliding is based on REALITY. And...
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb., greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
...as my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?" Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot.
Yep. Deltaman's unfortunately allowed himself to be a tad bit of a mouthpiece for someone else.
Just a tad.
You stupid pigfuckers had a shot at him. He came over to you guys looking for help to fix some problems a couple years ago.
But he quickly figured out you frauds didn't have the slightest clues what you were talking about and that I did.
And then all I had to do was get him pointed in the right direction, walk him through a little math, theory, history - and he was off and running on his own in no time with little further need for me. To anyone with a reasonably functional brain this ain't all that tough or complicated and it's totally consistent with eleven decades worth of conventional aviation.
And I'm happy 'cause now I can go off and die somewhere knowing you slimeballs won't be able to bury all the work I did, keep passing yourselves off as having any kind of substance, and keep the sport moving down the sewer.
But let's rewind a bit as it seems that I've lost a few people on this one.
You haven't lost anybody who knows what your game is. And there are A LOT more people now who know what your game is than there were a couple of years ago. Hell, even Kinsley went from:
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
And that should scare more shit out of you assholes than anything else we've accomplished.
Do remember however, that allowing yourself to get wrapped up by hot button topics will only help you to miss my point.
You've got NOTHING. You and Davis are PATHETIC. Do yourselves favors, slink back to where you came from, and stop humiliating yourselves.
Well... Don't - 'cause I'm enjoying this way too much. But that's what I'd do if I were you - if I hadn't ALREADY slashed my wrists.
Simply looking for an argument (Hi Deltaman!) will do the same.
Back to the original question...
Davis Straub - 2013/07/01 13:13:45 UTC
Why not a simple barrel release?
And the proposed answer to which I disagree...
Deltaman - 2013/07/01 21:29:02 UTC
Cause a simple barrel release will assume all the towing tension (or a half with a bridle) ..and a bent pin barrel release (Bailey style) has a VERY POOR ratio [Load]/[Actuation effort] = 6.2, not at all suitable with possible high towing tensions.
This is nonsense.
Sorry to be so blunt, but it quite simply is.
You're trying to fight grade school arithmetic. Davis has got his cult culled enough for you to maintain a few supporters but the laws of the universe have preordained your defeat.
Why?
Because your barrel release will not see those loads...
Not behind YOU they won't - but anybody stupid enough to get behind you deserves whatever happens to him.
...the loads high enough to damage it.
Yep. Your Rooney Link will very clearly provide you protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for that form of towing.
If you load anything up high enough and you will damage it.
Especially if it's some cheap piece of shit slapped together by some douchebag like Bobby Bailey, Matt Taber, or Steve Wendt.
That's why we put in failure points...
Oh yeah. No argument there. You assholes are all national treasures in terms of...
...can happen to you. Makes perfect sense. Got it.
So lockouts are significantly different between aerotowing and platform towing.
In platform towing, the forces are (normally) pressure regulated... so lockouts happen at the same line tension as towing.
In aerotowing, the forces are not limited and increase exponentially during lockout.
But we know this.
I'm restating it because if I don't, people jump up and down screaming about the differences between the two. The conversation stops and spirals out of control.
OK, let's keep things under control then and make sure we're on the same page on this exponential thing...
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
So think about it.
How is this accomplished?
Simply put... lock out.
So, in a lock out, the forces can very rapidly get so high as to destroy the glider?
So then, weaklinks do not help in a lock out situation?
You can see what I'm getting at here can't you?
Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Should be able to rip the wings off a six G glider in four seconds of lockout, right? We need the weak link because we can't react quickly enough - muppet on glider or rockstar on tug - to manually blow tow and if you can't manually blow tow in four seconds I have no fuckin' clue how you were able to react quickly and appropriately enough to get off the ground and high enough to blow the glider in a lockout.
300 pound glider blows at four seconds when it's feeling normal load plus five Gs - 1500 pounds - towline.
- And we'll pull in to zero the tension to start at zero seconds to make the math easy then push out and roll away into the lockout.
- And we'll also work backwards to make that math easy too.
So we've:
- hit normal towline tension 125 pounds - between a quarter and a half second
- blown a one G weak link at a little under one second
- blown a two G weak link at about a seconds and a half
So the cost of an extra G is about two thirds of a second and I just want a half a G over Donnell Hewett's Sacred One G Limit under which no evil can befall us. I just want an extra half second before my weak link blows but we've gotta have a thirty year war about it because the fucking idiot tug driver wakes up screaming in the middle of the night over the terror of what that half second could do to him?
I'm rather sick of that.
Well, there's nothing that concerns me more than your continued good health because the magnitude of the disaster of losing a national treasure of your caliber is simply unimaginable.
So.
With that in mind...
Back to the proposal that bent pin releases are inappropriate for platform towing due to failure at extremely high line loads.
Can you please quantify what you mean by "extremely high line loads" in pounds?
Hopefully, it's clear already why I consider this argument to be nonsense.
- Not until you quantify what you mean by "extremely high line loads" in pounds - pigfucker.
- I think you're gonna find fewer and fewer assholes who give a flying fuck what YOU do and don't CONSIDER to be nonsense.
Before you start typing btw...
WAY too late.
...please note how I did not say that they were appropriate. I'm not saying that they are or that they're not. That's a totally different discussion.
What I am saying is that this notion that they're not suitable BECAUSE they can fail under loads that we quite simply will not see is nothing more than scaremongering.
I hope that clears that up.
I know it won't, but hey, one can hope right?
In actuality, I know that there are people here that will actually read that and understand... that's why I bother.
I have no illusions though that people like Deltaman will not.
This will merely serve as food for that as****... er, I mean troll, and I'm sorry for that.
When was the last time you were scanned for a brain tumor?
Because your barrel release will not see those loads... the loads high enough to damage it.
I think you should read better.
I think this motherfucker is such a disaster area that it's ABSURD to encourage or expect to do anything better. And, anyway, it's much to our advantage that he continues to do things WORSE.
It's not a question about damage but about actuation force to become uncomfortable or so hard that it's really not appropriate for any emergency situation (not always at 1000ft).
Of course you're always gonna be at a thousand feet. How else are ya gonna use your Rooney Link as an instant hands free release?
I won't explain you again, juste re-read this (there is AT and TOW), that's REAL life :
Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/02 05:23:39 UTC
I know of guys that tried using (bent pin) barrels for winch towing and they personally testified they were very difficult to release...
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Just have a look how easy it already is with low tension:
PS: Macsux and Pudpud didn't understand you on weaklink. Please help them too.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney doesn't wanna make anything easier/safer for the glider. He wants to keep the load to actuation ratio as low as possible.
- If people can't get to and/or pry their releases open before they're on their ears he gets to keep telling them that they're a bunch of incompetent muppets who can't be trusted to blow themselves and thus in need of Rooney Links to maximize the increase in the towing operation for all concerned - particularly the guy with the 115 horsepower Rotax 914 who just got three hundred pounds lighter and gets to have fun doing go-arounds and extra takeoffs and landings instead of subjecting his middle ears to all those punishing rapid pressure changes.
sure !!?Dan Barker - 2013/07/01 20:57:35 UTC
