Weak links

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3665
I'm outta here
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/11 17:28:03 UTC

Head over to hanggliding.org if you would like to see how a forum should be run.
Yeah, let's do that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22212
So long guys
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 17:45:36 UTC

Image
Ok guys. I've had it

I've grown a bit sick of the "Us vs Them" (PGvsHG) attitude around here.
I fly both, along with a bunch of other aircraft, as do many around here. I'm both "Us" and "Them", but in your world, there is only room for one.

So I'm supposed to hate myself for trying to ruin "your" sport.
I supposedly lie about the realities of a sport that you know nothing about (so how exactly am I to be judged?). I just don't get it.

I'm a professional in both.
This isn't a weekend gig for me.
Yet the amount of bile I have to put up with? Image

I came here from the Oz Report Forum cuz this place was initially less of a sewing circle bitchfest. Sadly, it's become just as bad... no, worse. Here the "moderator" takes sides.

So I've decided I'm not putting up with it.
You like my advice about your hobby, but you rail and spew about my other one? Sorry. I'm taking my ball and going home.
Jack Axaopoulos - 2011/06/12 18:20:06 UTC

Have we had enough threads started about paragliding on this HG forum yet????

Ill never understand why people have to start threads they know are going to cause the same old heated debate that comes up far too often, yet they continue to do it.

Cant we all just agree to stop the pg talk? it doesnt belong here.
This is an HG specific site, not biwingal. There is a paragliding specific forum available too.

Now this I dont get:
Youre supposed to hate yourself? Thats what people say here? Image
Youre trying to ruin our sport? Thats what people think here? Image
Bile? Anyone who doesnt agree with you spews bile now?

Sorry Jim... havent seen anyone say anything like the above. Can you quote it?
You seem to perceive anyone who disagrees with you as a hater of pg, simply nonsense. We just disagree. I dont think pg piltos who disagree with me hate hang gliding.

Like ive told others... if you want to go... just go. You dont get a free parting cheap shot at the community to tell us how much we suck. Sorry... no free attack on us while you exit.

Well I see now that you are threatening to delete your account in a PM if I dont delete it for you, which I can only assume means youre going to do what a certain other poster did and start vandalizing and deleting posts, so you force my hand... account banned so you cant vandalize. Well this truly sucks. Threatening to damage the site just because you got pissed off is really messed up dude. You need to seriously chill out.

Accounts cant be deleted. It screws all the threads up. Sorry, I cant let you just start trashing the place, which is your intent.

You could have simply said, so long guys, not enjoying it here anymore, instead of trashing us and threatening to damage the forum, which is why you are in the basement now. A gentlemens farewell would not be in the basement.

If you wish to lunge even more profanity at me, email me directly.
I SO do enjoy watching slimeballs fucking each other over.
My question is this... is this a bar room or a community forum?
It's a COMMUNITY FORUM. And it wants to sell itself as one big G rated happy family where people can hand their kids over to highly experienced professionals who tell them they know what they're doing because they've got huge track records.
Cuz right now, it's a bar.
And now that Tad's gone it's a Sunday school. And the flight procedures and training are all faith based and traditional.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3665
I'm outta here
Dan Tomlinson - 2008/12/12 16:25:29 UTC

I have a great deal of respect for Mark C's tolerance.
Enough to compensate for his total uselessness in the hang gliding competence department?
He's been more than patient.
He should've gutted Rooney halfway through his first paragraph.
Normally I'd say let the rant happen as it may and we can work around it, but Marc and Jim have a point.
Yeah, you make sure you stick with their point.
The function of this website is to contribute to hang gliding and to encourage people to learn about and perhaps participate in the sport.
- Who the fuck are you to define what the purpose of this website is?

- One contributes to hang gliding by knowing what the hell he's talking about and disemboweling dangerous frauds like Rooney, the other dumb fucks at Ridgely, and the assholes who tolerate and enable them.

- One DOES NOT encourage people to learn rot and participate in a broken flavor of aviation until it's fixed. Stay the hell out of this until you can figure out some way to get up to speed on grade school arithmetic.
Tad's comments are not conducive to projecting the image we want to represent us.
- Who the fuck is "WE" - you arrogant piece o' shit?
- I know EXACTLY the kind of IMAGE "WE" want to project - and it totally disgusts me.
For that reason I, ever so reluctantly, cast my vote with those who would remove him from the list.
I'm sorry, I missed the part in the bylaws in which one or more stupid pigfuckers get to VOTE to silence someone they don't like or disagree with.
Sorry Tad, while you have found a way to draw attention to your cause...
It's not "MY CAUSE" - asshole. It's PHYSICS.
...you've buried whatever legitimacy it may have in your vulgur and inappropriate retorts.
Don't like it? Don't read it. And keep flying those Rooney Links to very clearly provide you protection from high angles of attack.
There is a rule of logic that says you should address an argument on its merits and not those of the individual making it.
Yeah, but this is hang gliding. And rules and logic don't apply - just experience, opinions, and popularity.
We are however all human and are inclined to discount the credibility of an argument when presented by someone who has otherwise chosen to distance himself from our norms.
- You have another fifteen million years worth of evolution to take care of before you make it up to the level of human.
- Again... Who the fuck is "WE" - you arrogant piece of shit? And who the fuck authorized you to define what "OUR" norms are?
You are receiving the hundreds of responses because everyone is compelled to watch a train wreck.
And I guess they appointed you to speak on their behalf because they were incapable of properly expressing themselves.
That doesn't mean we want to be in one.
Do you ever do any sentences that AREN'T first person plural?
In any event I think it's time you leave our site.
- You almost had it there, Dan. You started first person singular but lapsed into plural. Couldn't really contain the delusions of grandeur.

- I don't give a flying fuck what some brain dead piece of shit like YOU "THINKS" and YOU don't get to define it as OUR SITE. You never have nor ever will be able to contribute anything useful to a useful discussion.
You cannot make a positive contribution to the sport with the approach you have taken here.
NOBODY can make a positive contribution to the sport using ANY approach until we can demolish crud like you and flush it where it belongs.
Alternately you could apologize for your behavior, and promise to clean up your language.
Rot in hell, cunt.
If you followed through on both counts you would probably soon find that you have more friends and perhaps even more people willing to listen to the logic of your engineering designs.
I don't want any of you useless goddam pigfuckers as friends and I REALLY hope you ignore me and hang on Rooney's every word while your busy sucking his dick.
I would love to see you do that Tad.
Whatever some cheap piece of shit like you would love I'd love doing just the opposite.
You once pointed out a flaw in my harness that might possibly have saved my life.
Nah. That was at Ridgely. And whenever a fuzzed out line breaks at Ridgely it increases the safety of the operation.
Here in Baghdad we each have a battle buddy, a person who looks out for us and vice versa.
How much would I hafta pay him to frag your ass?
On that day you were my battle buddy for sure.
- I got new battle buddies. I don't know if you bothered to tune into The Davis Show for the Zack Marzec postmortem but if you had you could've watched them continuing the work I started on Rooney - before Davis pulled the plug on them.

- And if I ever see you under a glider on a ramp with your carabiner dangling you sure better hope that you've got a better battle buddy than Yours Truly within shouting distance.
I owe you one.
Keep it - pigfucker.
This is my attempt to repay it as best I can.
I'll add it to the list of things you totally suck at.
You can contribute to the sport as you have, but you must clean up your mouth and your ranting to be heard.
Google:

"hang glider" "weak link"

And DO let me thank you for going over there to Iraq and fighting so bravely to defend the principles of my constitutional freedoms.

And, as a Region 9 Director, DO keep up at the national level the great work you started at the local. Great article on weak links in the magazine a year ago, by the way. Hard to beat for its level of civility. Just goes to show what you can accomplish after eradicating every last trace of competence and integrity from an organization.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5702
Fatal accident at Quest
Dunegoon - 2013/02/03 13:32:04 UTC

I think some of you might have known Zach. Condolences to family and friends.
And thanks so very much to all of his family and friends for making sure we got to the bottom of what happened to help prevent this tragedy from befalling someone else.
A hang glider from Illinois died Saturday after crashing on the runway of a rural south Lake County airfield.

The Lake County Sheriff's Office identified the victim as 27-year-old Zachary Marzec. According to Marzec's Facebook profile, he is a hang-gliding instructor and he has several dozen photos of himself hang gliding with friends.
Having the wrong "friends" can have real serious consequences sometimes.
Deputies say something went wrong as Marzec was in flight and caused the hang glider to go down at Quest Air Hang Gliding's airfield.
One moment the glider was going up, the next it was coming down. The experts are totally baffled as to an explanation for this shocking phenomenon.
No one at the business could be reached after the crash.
Did you try Pizza Hut? That's where they usually go after one of these to figure out a cover story good enough for the press, hang gliding community, and FAA to swallow and/or sign off on. Generally takes them about a pitcher and a half / ten minutes - whichever comes first.
The crash happened at about 3:20 p.m. He was taken to South Lake Hospital, where he died.
I don't think he made it that far.
Jim Vachon, a spokesman for the Lake County Sheriff's Office, said an investigation is ongoing into the accident and what exactly happened is unknown.
How's that investigation going, Jim? Any leads? Did the wind suddenly stop blowing? Maybe his arms got tired.
Bacil Dickert - 2013/02/03 18:01:12 UTC

From the Big Walker list, it was reported that he was flying a Moyes Xtralite, got hit by strong lift that pitched the nose up radically and broke the weak link.
- The LIFT broke the weak link? Isn't the whole point of aerotowing to pull the glider into lift? Shouldn't we be using something that DOESN'T blow apart when the flight's going according to plan?

- The Sheriff's Office is conducting an investigation into the accident to try to find out what made the glider go down. Maybe somebody should phone them and suggest that they look into this "weak link" angle.
The glider tumbled and fell to the ground. He was the pilot in the "A Whole New World" video released just over a month ago.
On which I commented:
Tad Eareckson - 2013/01/22 05:21:02 UTC

None of those Quest douchebags has a freaking clue as to the strengths of their weak links or even their purpose.
Tragic. Condolences to family and friends.
Yeah, yeah... Tragic... Condolences to family and friends... So young... But he died doing what he loved.
Mark Cavanaugh - 2013/02/08 04:20:23 UTC

I'm so sorry to hear this news, especially on the heels of that too-fun-and-funny video featuring Zach (I shared it with many!).
And DO make sure to share these two photos:

Image
Image
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

with as many people as possible. They:
- were taken not long after the most important and last flight of his life
- commemorate the flight that made his name a household word throughout the hang gliding community
- depict how dependable the Rooney Link is in very clearly providing protection from high angles of attack
What a loss.
Yeah, yeah... Tragic... Condolences to family and friends... So young... But he died doing what he loved.
And I'm so sorry that you and Paul have the sad task of conveying what happened.
And I'm so sorry that it wasn't one or both of you douchebags who bought it instead of - or, what the hell, in addition to - Zack.
My condolences to Zach's family & friends, and to the two of you.
Don't worry, Mark. They'll get over it in NO TIME. As a matter of fact, this probable-invisible-dust-devil defense the Tjaden twins released yesterday - 2013/02/07 - is the last anybody's ever gonna hear from them on Zack.
I hope that something positive/proactive, something which could help reduce the risk of freakish accidents, might ultimately emerge.
Freakish accident, Mark. What are ya gonna do? Sometimes shit just happens.

Just don't whipstall off of tows into invisible dust devils. You'll be fine.

Why don't you have a discussion? Tad's still sitting out his three month suspension so you can count on it being reasoned, civil, respectful...

Here, in order of appearance, are the participants from the "Weak link question" thread that Tad turned into the hang gliding Jerry Springer Show:

Kirk Lewis
Kevin Carter
Jim Rooney
Tad Eareckson
Mark Cavanaugh
Brian Vant-Hull
Matthew Graham
Janni Papakrivos
Danny Brotto
Chris McKee
Marc Fink
Gary Devan
Dave Bodner
Cragin Shelton
Jeff Eggers
Shawn Ray
Bacil Dickert
Lauren Tjaden
David Churchill
Jim Rowan
Gene Towns
Steve Kinsley

That's a lot of talent and passionate concern you have assembled all in one place.

And then you have this resource from the "I'm outta here"/"We can't beat Tad so let's lynch him" thread:

Marc Fink
Tad Eareckson
Jim Rooney
Gary Devan
Cragin Shelton
Dave Bodner
Allen Sparks
Hugh McElrath
Janni Papakrivos
Jim Rowan
Danny Brotto
Matthew Graham
Dan Tomlinson
Shawn Ray
Gene Towns

And then youhave the highly experienced aerotow professionals right across the Bay. I have no doubt whatsoever that once they recover from the shock of losing a beloved colleague and get their grief under control they'll wanna spend every waking moment working with the community until this issue is properly dealt with.

And down towards Richmond there's Blue Sky and Steve Wendt. And Steve Wendt is EXCEPTIONALLY knowledgeable...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Hell, he's the one who signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating.

And Dennis Pagen - author of the excellent book, Towing Aloft - is just up the road near State College. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to conduct a seminar on the relationship between 130 pound Greenspot and angle of attack for a very reasonable fee.

Peter Birren could undoubtedly show you how to rig a Linknife in a system to autorelease a glider that gets too far out of whack so you have some redundancy for the Rooney Link.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti and the USHGA Towing Committee... Never had much off a problem getting a conclusive and unanimous finding out of that crowd.

Wills Wing... THEY sure know what an appropriate weak link is and could probably determine whether or not it was 1.5 inches or less. And are forever pushing their dealerships, schools, customers to get a handle on this safety thing.

Just keep plugging away. I have no doubt whatsoever that something good will eventually emerge from this tragedy.

Just a suggestion though - if you'll permit me...

This thread is currently on back on Page 8 with five posts and 341 hits. You might wanna give it a bump and get it back up there with all the plans-for-the-weekend threads on Page 1.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks
Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
An excellent tug pilot, Kinsley, DOES NOT...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.
...tow people he doesn't trust - even if they ARE equipped with the best lockout protector the aerotowing industry has been able to develop in the course of a couple of decades.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."
A couple weeks ago it dawned on me that there's a HUGE dynamic going on in this third-of-a-century weak link war we've been having in the wake of Donnell Hewett's lunatic reinvention of aviation.

Donnell's approach was - and IS...

- Use a magic center of mass bridle so the farther out of line the glider gets the more effective the autocorrection force becomes.

- Don't bother with an expensive constant tension winch system because a nylon parachute shroud towline with a tension gauge will accomplish pretty much the same thing and if the tension gauge is reading low and steady the glider COULDN'T POSSIBLY be in any kind of trouble.

- A really light weak link will also keep the glider from getting too far out of whack and ensure that a pop will never be anything more consequential than a mild inconvenience.

- Put somebody on the back of the truck, give him a machete, and tell him to err on the side of caution in fixing whatever's going on back there. (The bad pin man doing the single thing most likely to kill you is now a good pin man doing the single thing most likely to save you.)

- Use whatever cheap hardware store crap you feel like to concoct a release with an actuator anywhere but on the basetube because you've already got such huge safety margins and so much redundancy that it would be absurd to waste the time, effort, and expense to pursue the matter further.

And hang gliding culture, after a brief period of hesitation, ate this up with a spoon because it was EXACTLY the sort of thing it wanted to hear. Step right up, ladies and gentlemen. Let's get AIRBORNE! No engineering, expensive equipment, tedious preparation, aviation theory, or thinking required. And DO make sure to studiously ignore anything inconsistent with this approach...
Mike Lake - 2011/03/02 01:11:45 UTC

In the early '80s we were given a demo of a fixed line tow system complete with spring gauge, spaghetti bridles, rings, string and chunks of metal at longbow tensions positioned in front of the pilot's face.

The release was some kind of boat shackle that required about same continual tugging to actually release as it does for me to untangle my mobile phone charger.

After release the line had to unthread itself from various rings before the glider was actually free from a rather pathetic tow launch.

This was utter, utter crap, the whole setup and we (rather unkindly) laughed.
...because Skyting Theory predicts that it'll kill you in a heartbeat.

But a lot of this evolved or re-evolved without / in spite of Hewett's best efforts... constant tension payout winches, Spectra (zero stretch) towlines, one and two point bridles, two stage release, launch platforms and dollies, ultralight tugs...

Areas of stagnation and reverse evolution...

- Outside of Russia with their bite controlled one point aero releases and whatever dent Joe Street has made with his two point aeros there's zilch in the way of that can be blown safely/survivably - or at all - in most emergency situations, particularly lockouts. And most of the cable, velcro, bent pin crap used for aero is actually considerably worse than Hewett's second generation stuff - at least he ensured that they'd handle his magic one G weak link / stall and lockout preventer limit.

- The vast majority of towing is aero, virtually all aero is limited to Rooney Links, and Rooney Links hold the vast majority of gliders to well under the one G that Hewett was so happy with and insistent upon. And a huge number of gliders - mine fer instance - are held below the 0.8 G minimum. And it's virtual heresy to suggest that a weak link should scale with either flying weight or glider capacity.

TUGS, on the other hand, are EXREMELY well protected:
- excellent, built-in, no control compromise releases
- illegally light weak links on both ends of the towline
- tug weak link commonly lighter than the glider weak link
- illegally light tow mast breakaway just in case a glider or two figures that they're being scammed and fucked over and tries to reform anything

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
This is - and, since very early in the game, has been - a war between glider pilots and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.
...bad pin men, drivers, tow park operators, meet-heads, clubs, commercial interests, national organizations.

They don't give a flying fuck if you get killed by their crappy training, equipment, towing, negligence. They just wanna do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to make sure you don't get killed ON TOW. Because if you're killed ON TOW they were supplying the power that killed you and that opens up HUGE responsibility, legal, liability issues for them and everybody up the chain of command.

But if they can cut you loose or your - or the tug's - Rooney Link blows two or three seconds prior to impact...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Brad Gryder - 2013/03/06 22:17:31 UTC

In my opinion, because we hang glider pilots are more exposed, have little crash protection, and can land almost anywhere in an emergency, then we would be better served to be near or below the lower end of the suggested weaklink strength spectrum.

Any hang glider pilot who is fearful of having a weak link failure anytime during tow is in need of additional training. He's either towing over areas where he shouldn't be, or he's flying wrong, or both.

I'd rather have my weak link serve a dual function (as both a safety fuse and as an emergency back-up release), than to be so strong that it continues to pull me into the ground should I impact while on tow. A good well-practiced aerotow pilot can manage his line tension and keep it reasonably low, then break the weak link to come off tow if he wishes to do so. When the hang glider pilot breaks a "weak" weak link, the tug pilot just feels a little nudge, and that's it. Nothing scary happens on either end of the line, and both pilots fly away as normal.
...it's because you were a crappy pilot (and ain't around anymore to present an alternate perspective). Or, if necessary, you were a good pilot...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
...who apparently just had some bad luck with an invisible dust devil.

Summary...

The instant WE'RE off the hook EVERYONE ELSE is off the hook.

And that's why we're never gonna be able to fix this problem on any satisfactory scale or higher level. If Hewett hadn't handed us this insanity freedom loving commercial interests would've invented it on their own.

But, hell, let's keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for better results. We're about all we've got.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing
Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

Mark Knight and Jim Rooney put the loops through the wringer
(Francisco Grande, Casa Grande, Arizona)
Weak Link loops breaking test - April 2013
All knots tied with single fisherman's unless specified.

Breaking Lbs - Material

463 - Spectra Line used for Aero-towing (taken from used tow line, NOT NEW)

000 - (http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html)

330 - White with Black striker 300 lb.
308 - White with Red Striker 250 lb.
253 - White with Purple Striker 200lb 1knot
255 - White with Purple Striker 200lb 2knots

220 - Black Dacron fishing line 160 lb.
330 - Actual Tug Weaklink (Doubled Black) Black Dacron fishing line 160 lb.
286 - 205 Leach Line
154 - Courtland Greenspot 130 lb. (From Quest Air Florida)
099 - Cabellas Greenspot 130 lb.

187 - Double Loop Cabellas Greenspot
077 - Cabellas Greenspot No Lark's head
198 - Tandem Knot Cabellas Greenspot

(Cabellas (Cabela's) Green spot did not give consistent results) Not recommended

Image
Image
Mark Knight

My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.
Davis Straub

His tug's weaklink is 330 pounds (see chart above) also on half the load, so it is 50% stronger than his weaklink.
Mark Knight

We tried to simulate how the rope is pulled while on aero-tow.

My experience in weak links breaking during lock out is that it does not happen very fast. The line is pulling and pulling and pulling and then it snaps. It takes about two or three seconds. I have induced a lockout purposely and not on purpose several times with the tandem glider and students above me in the harness. It may seem like it's very fast but if you analyze the whole thing from start to finish it takes a few seconds.

So with the come-a-long I would put the tension on the loop over about a two to four seconds before it would break. The weak link material really stretches a lot before it breaks. If you stop the test before it breaks, you will see your loop has now stretched and will be longer than it was originally. If you then do the test again it will break much sooner than the rated breaking strengths. What this would suggest to me is, if you have a close to lockout or old link that has been stretched many times, replace it with a new one.

I really like the links being sold at towmeup.com. They test every spool at different areas to assure consistent product is being used. The:

http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html

website has good information. I recommend everyone go read it.
Davis Straub

Regarding knots he writes:
The knots do not matter so much for just one tow to how they break or the breaking strengths. A double fisherman's knot or a Tandem multi-wrap knot will not give better strength but wears less on the weak link and therefore last longer.

Double knots put less wear on the weak link material. Doing twenty to fifty tandems in a week, you see the weak link material starting to fray. More were it makes contact with the carabineer than were its tied, but never the less a wider contact point were its tied gives you a little better durability of the knot.
Davis Straub

From:
http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html
Image

A popular misconception uses a very common 135 pound test green spot trolling line. In fact the myths associated with this product are so strong we no longer carry it. If you wish to obtain some, it can be easily found at any decent fishing store as Dacron Trolling Line made by the Green Spot company. Here's how the myth goes - Look at the knot tied link shown in the picture above.

Many, many pilots believe that if you take a 135 pound weaklink line and tie it in a loop that it will break at 270 pounds. The logic is that there are two parallel load paths sharing the load, each one capable of withstanding 135 pounds. They miss the fact that any properly tied weaklink will ALWAYS fail at the knot. The line is pulled tighter and tighter at the knot and should break right at the knot every time.

Depending on the knot used the line will break at 40-60% of its rated strength. Typically a weaklink tied with a double grapevine will break at slightly over the rated strength of the line. The only way to tell for sure is to break test it with a calibrated tester. There have been many inadvertent weak link breaks caused simply because pilots ASSUMED that the link was stronger than it was. This has led to the asinine belief that if one loop is good 2, 3, or 4 is even better.

In use the weaklink material will stretch well over 60% in length before it fails at the knot. Adding a multitude of loops makes it impossible to spread the load evenly, and the link will likely bind up causing it to fail in an often unpredictable and unrepeatable manner. To ensure consistent breaking strengths, stacking equal length weak links works, using a single appropriate strength link is the best, and multiple wraps should never be used.
Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

We did similar tests with a tester and the same weaklink material from towmeup.com as well. It's nice to see others doing the same. Too many people (myself included prior to testing) just took other people's word on this. I read towmeup.com's info and decided to get their weaklinks and test it myself.

In general, I find one loop tied with the fisherman's not adds 20%. People are blown away by this as they have that same misconception listed here. I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

Instinct Windsports
http://instinct.pro
Ontario, Canada
Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 21:46:08 UTC

More on testing tomorrow.

I would love an article from you on your testing and how you use weaklinks at your place.
The good news...

These motherfuckers just opened up a big can of plutonium dust on themselves, Bobby Bailey, Bill Moyes, the Flight Park Mafia, Trisa, Matt, Peter, Pagen, CHGA, USHGA, HGFA, BHPA, you name it.

The bad news...

This is so much ammunition I'm gonna hafta hire a big staff to keep unloading it on deserving targets. And I can't afford to hire a big staff. And the work load is probably gonna kill me.

This is fuckin' historic. Do what you can with it.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Assuring Consistent Weak Links

Attach the link to the same size and kind of quick links, rings or ropes every time.
Image

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Looks like we'll all be flying with eighth inch quick links between our weak links and bridle ends now so our breaking points will be very consistent and our tug drivers will know exactly what to expect and make the appropriate carburetor adjustments.
Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/05 00:16:28 UTC
Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 21:46:08 UTC

I would love an article from you on your testing and how you use weaklinks at your place.
Who, me?
Sure Mark, you have the most important qualification: you're not Tad.

So come on, tell us how you use weak links at your place. What's the best test strength fishing line to meet your expectation of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence?

I myself have always found a single loop of Cortland 130 pound Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and placed at one end of a shoulder bridle to hit the sweet spot - but what does a muppet such as myself really know?
Davis Straub - 2013/07/05 00:23:39 UTC

Who else?
Go fuck yourself, Davis.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

I know what's going on.

- These pigfuckers have just seen one of their cool dude, hotshot, tandem aerotow instructor, pro toad buddies get snuffed in a heartbeat on a normal tow that started out in mild conditions.

- They finally figured out what I finally figured out about half a dozen years ago - that every flight in thermal conditions with a Rooney Link lockout protector on the back end and/or a Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector on the front end is a dice roll with one's life.

- They can't start towing two point - which would make the vast majority of Rooney Link pops at least survivable - because all the Industry two point equipment is dangerous draggy junk and nobody with a half decent glider will tolerate it within a half mile of his eight hundred dollar control frame.

- If they kill a weekend warrior next time it's gonna be extremely difficult to write him off as a clueless muppet after what just happened to Zack Marzec and if they kill another Zack Marzec it'll be totally impossible to invent another invisible dust devil.

- And as of thirteen months ago everybody knows we're supposed to be operating under FAA sailplane aerotowing regulations - and it's gonna be extremely impossible to find a closet big enough to hide that Trisa article skeleton in.

Zack Marzec was the beginning of the collapse of this third of a century long Hewett based Ponzi scheme.

And I'm gonna go out on an optimistic limb and predict that as these dangerous two hundred pound stronglinks start becoming a lot more the norm...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
...bent pin crap barrel releases are gonna start becoming a lot less the norm.

Fuck you - Trisa, Matt, and Tim.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing
Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

Mark Knight and Jim Rooney put the loops through the wringer
Hey Davis...

Wanna see one of Mark's Hang Two towing students/victims get put through the wringer by a Davis/Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

---
http://www.kitestrings.org/post1476.html#p1476
http://www.kitestrings.org/post11958.html#p11958
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing
Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

Mark Knight and Jim Rooney put the loops through the wringer

Image
Image
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.
Fuckin' assholes.
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