landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

zamuro - 2013/07/10 20:42:10 UTC

Rodger Hoyt - 2013/07/10 20:16:47 UTC

I've often wondered about the wisdom of pilots staying on low-perf gliders.

I can't get the logic here at all.

That's OK, there isn't any. (Often the case when you're dealing with global warming deniers.)

Great that it worked out for you but not everybody learn at the same pace.

This is something one is supposed to have learned already.

I'll say learn to do a proper approach consistently in several fields with an easier to fly glider before stepping up. If you are unable to do a good approach in a small field in let say a WW Sport, moving up to a T2 is not going to help you.

This isn't about being wired into whatever glider you happen to be flying at the moment. It's about knowing what to do with it.

zamuro - 2013/07/10 20:49:30 UTC

Something that worked out for me once was going to a place where I could do many approach-landings in one day in several conditions (Morningside) and always trying to land in the bull's-eye.

Yeah, always go for that bull's-eye. Really horrible things tend to happen to gliders that miss bulls'-eyes. That's why hang gliding puts so much focus on them.

Then go to other places and try to land the glider in a predetermined spot.

Yeah, do whatever it takes to nail that predetermined spot. How else are ya gonna learn to win spot landing contests?

NMERider - 2013/07/10 20:58:12 UTC

That's what I'd like to see more of in SoCal. We have the Big O Loop at Crestline which was inspired by Morningside but it seems underutilized for this purpose. I would like to use it a whole lot more myself.

And make sure you nail that spot - EVERY TIME. As one of the country's premiere XC pilots I'm certain you understand the critical importance of that.

Steve Baran - 2013/07/11 00:03:28 UTC

Sometimes S turns on final are the only answer - due to encountering lift on final or a change in wind direction.

1. Sometimes flying into the trees at the upwind end of the field at the end of final is the only answer - due to having been too fucking stupid to have come in as low as possible over the trees at the downwind end of the field.

2. Bullshit. We don't see planes in REAL aviation doing S turns on final and there is ZERO excuse for being so high that you're even in a position to BE ABLE to S-turn - let alone NEED TO.

When these two gliders:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


finish rolling out onto final they're on the fuckin' ground - with the minimum possible portion of runway behind them. And they couldn't care less about any goddam spots in any goddam middles of fields.

I had to do a S turn on my last flight...

BULLSHIT.

...pioneering a new LZ at a new site (to make sure I landed in the middle of the field I was headed for).

Yeah Steve, keep making sure you land in middles of fields. Ya just never know when somebody's gonna put a traffic cone in the middle of one and declare a spot landing contest. And is just one of the fundamental laws of hang gliding that you're never gonna be in a situation in which you're wishing that you had considered putting it down somewhere in the first half of the field.

But, I'm flying a U2 and I kept my speed up. However, my landing kinda sucked (dropped the control bar at end of my flare in a very slight cross wind).

How badly were you injured and was your glider damaged by the large rocks strewn all over the place?

Until I get totally wired into the U2 I'll be putting topless dreams on standby.

Get that landing perfected before you move up. Then you can start learning to perfect it on the topless.

Idiot.

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/11 01:18:59 UTC

Figure 8 turns are a much better choice. You keep runway in front of you.

Sure Tom. How 'bout posting a video of someone doing Figure 8 turns and keeping the runway in front of him.

NMERider - 2013/07/11 06:16:58 UTC

And don't just mechanically DBF by going through the motions.

The way they're taught when they're going for their ratings.

Have your runway visualized and keep your eyes on end of the runway during your entire pattern.

Which end of the runway?
- The downwind end the people who have their shit together have their eyes on?
- The middle end that all of our asshole instructors and mentors wire people to lock on to?
- The upwind end where people who've kept their eyes on the middle end tend to wind up - give or take fifteen yards?

On Tuesday I landed in gusty, thermic conditions and what turned out to be a river-rock strewn field I have never seen before.

Seen one, seen 'em all. And it's a pretty good bet that you, by now, have LITERALLY seen 'em all.

All I could see from the air were the bushes and I had three different runways picked out in advance since I had no idea what the wind gradient would do to my path. It turned out to be a 15 mph shear but my nose was pointed down in a steep descent (utilizing my drag chute)...

Just one more thing to go wrong. And since Dave Hopkins used one once and had bad results I don't know where YOU think YOU'RE coming off using one.

Why don't you just take his advice...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

...and come in upright using your body and open harness as a drag chute?

...and the glider accelerated nicely when I passed the gradient and rounded into ground effect with enough speed to set up a decent flare with enough steps to not stumble on the rocks. Had my drag chute failed...

Astounding that it didn't.

...I would have set down on the next imaginary runway.

What about the imaginary spot you'd been targeting? Wouldn't that have cost you all your imaginary points and the imaginary six-pack you were about to win in your imaginary spot landing contest?

Ya know, Jonathan...

You've got your shit together pretty well on XC landings and reasonably well on landings in general. But when you let total idiots like Dave Hopkins get away with spewing crap that's pretty much the precise opposite of what you're saying then what you're saying - for your target audience - just gets lost in the noise. Your target audience is just hearing a din of conflicting opinions that cancel each other out.

You need to hammer that motherfucker - and you need to hammer the asshole instructors who are sending these spot landing accidents waiting to happen out into the real world. But you probably wouldn't be all that thrilled with the social consequences so just keep on doing what you're doing and hoping for better results.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Bob Knop - 2013/07/11 09:56:37 UTC
Holland

Tom Galvin - 2013/07/11 01:18:59 UTC

Figure 8 turns are a much better choice.

But in midday thermal conditions you still might eat up your runway...

You can eat up runway fucking up any approach in any conditions (unless the wind's so strong that you're coming straight down or going backwards).

NMERider - 2013/07/10 20:30:39 UTC

Even the Sport 2 and similar gliders are capable of extremely tight patterns and very steep final legs...

Below is a DS wing and capable of tight stuff.

Everything's capable of tight stuff. It's all primarily designed to fly slowly in little circles in order to exploit all the thermal lift it can get.

This is at Greifenberg, Austria:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2CQQLMPdYU

Usual putting green, wide open, runway to burn.

It is a handy skill to be able to make a tight DBF.

And again we see that by the time the glider's fully rolled out onto final it's on the fuckin' ground.

Here a PG got in my way and I had to speed things up so I would not interfere with his plan.
On downwind you feel the air in which you will land. When a thermal breaks off you can more easy react upon it.

Erik Boehm - 2013/07/11 10:38:44 UTC

I'm also going to throw in my two cents, and say I don't see a problem with making low turns, provided you maintain sufficient speed.

If you're determined not to maintain sufficient speed being level won't necessarily do you a whole lot of good.

Starting a long final with the intention of coming in not very high over the trees gives a lot of room for sink or a stronger than expected headwind to turn that into an approach that puts you in the trees.

Seen it happen plenty of times. Totally stupid. And we already KNOW we won't have an engine to bail us out.

Trees can also cause rotor, and I'd generally like to stay in front of them.

If there's a rotor behind them there's lift in front of them. It's pretty tough to get in trouble being close to the upwind side of the treetops with a bit of speed.

Of course, coming in from a steep angle will help greatly, and yes, an upright body position will reduce the speed build up...

1. No it won't. It'll just steepen / increase the rate of your descent for any degree of pull-in.

2. We don't have a problem with "speed buildup".

- We're having this discussion in response to a glider that STALLED.

- Speed is supposed to be bad because some people get into PIOs on final. PIOs are Pilot Induced Oscillations. Speed is not the problem - pilots inducing oscillations because they haven't learned how to fly the glider fast is the problem.

- Assuming that you haven't eaten up all your runway because you wasted it by targeting a spot in the middle or didn't have enough to begin with SPEED is GOOD.

...but I still prefer the low-ish turn.

1. Right. You prefer not to waste runway and maintain maximum control of your glider.
2. The turns we're seeing in these videos aren't "low-ish" - they're ending low in ground effect.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29479
Crash at Ellenville

Dave Hopkins - 2013/07/11 14:08:44 UTC

Erik Boehm - 2013/07/11 10:38:44 UTC

Starting a long final with the intention of coming in not very high over the trees gives a lot of room for sink or a stronger than expected headwind to turn that into an approach that puts you in the trees.

You are right . That is why I don't do a long final over the trees. I stay close doing figure 8s then turn in and get straight before I come over the trees into the LZ.

See this guy?

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png


He doesn't even have to come in over the trees.

I DON'T LIKE SIDE SLIPPING INTO AN LZ.

1. Who, besides you, is saying anything about SIDESLIPPING? We're seeing crisp coordinated turns.
2. Cite a crash precipitated by somebody sideslipping onto final.
3. Who gives a flying fuck what you like and don't?

Most here are too small and rigids and topless get too much speed eating up field plus yawing a round .

BULLSHIT.
- The people doing low turns onto final are landing shorter than everyone else.
- Speed doesn't translate to yaw instability.

This has done me well for many yrs here on the east coast.

And Zack Marzec's Rooney Link and pro toad bridle did him just great on all but one of his tows at East Coast flight parks.

I use the time doing F-8s to eye ball my intended path and spot really well.

I'm so happy that you keep hitting your intended path and fuckin' spot. Me, however... I don't give a rat's ass about intended paths and fuckin' spots. All I'm interested in is dropping it down into the field and eating up as little runway as possible.

The Ellenville LZ is 3 times as long as wide .

And it's five hundred feet wide and for a Hang Three, if your instructor isn't a total asshole, you're supposed to be able to hit a two hundred foot strip or, if - as is almost always the case - he is, a fifty foot spot.

It has tall trees on the long axis> NW , SE and no trees on the short axis.> SW and NE . This mean on the short axis we have good approaches but need to be more accurate in our setup. Meaning diving at the edge of the field and bleeding of speed in ground effect.
Either way , this place gets small quick with a topless or rigid. But by the time you are flying these wings we should have short field landing figured out.
Instructors and observers ,mentors giving ratings should demand pilots understand and practice short field landing before giving advanced rating. Different areas have their special skills to fly safe .

I'm massively unimpressed with the assholes we have for instructors, observers, and mentors.

Jerry Furnell - 2013/07/12 12:22:11 UTC
Canungra

Picture a paddock that is long but narrow and the wind is across it (along the breadth).
A low turn with speed during ground effect is also possible if you do it right.
I do this in my REV at a local paddock in LIGHT winds where the wind comes across the short side rather than down the long side.
I set up DBF for crosswind approach and enter the paddock with max speed travelling crosswind, then as my speed bleeds off I turn into the wind or close to it, level the wings and flare.

Of course, if the wind is strong, then it's possible to simply land directly into it with a normal DBF as you don't need as much 'runway'.

I've also landed the REV into this same paddock with the VG jammed on 3/4 and it was fast but the flare was easy and it turned into one of my better landings.

Yes, the VG isn't anywhere near as a big a fucking deal as worrying about it is.

Back to the paddock mentioned above, a few topless pilots and several beginners have collected the perimeter fence because they came in too high and too slow. Not enough height nor speed to turn. They just mush in and too often flare onto the fence resulting in nasty injuries from the barbed wire and posts.

Glad to have more data on how much the instruction sucks down there as well.

I used to do figure 8's downwind to lose height, but then I learnt to do DBF approaches flying trikes. I must say, it really is much easier to judge your entry point to a paddock this way.

Set up high behind your chosen entry point then dive at the entry point so that you just clear it with speed... then enjoy the rush of ground effect.

Do a fast low turn onto final. It's safer, more efficient, and more fun.

I used to fear landings because I stuffed so many up, but now love to land, it's one of my favorite parts of any flight.

Jerry Furnell - 2013/07/12 21:14:40 UTC

The key to most inland landings is speed, speed, speed. Counterintuitive but true.

And if you want speed (as well as control) do you fly off the basetube or downtubes?

[Tad Eareckson]

From:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post4888.html#p4888

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZJdXcbO8Bo


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC
Toronto

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11

I was practicing my spot landings at Andy Jackson Airpark...

Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
HGAviator - 2013/08/11
dead

...and had on decent landing ane really UGLY landing...!

So on the average you had an average day.

0:00 - Spot Landing Practice, Andy Jackson Airpark

Yep, gotta keep up with that spot landing practice. You just never know when you're life's gonna depend upon your ability to land on a traffic cone. Might mark a five foot radius circle that's the only safe area in a minefield.

2:17 - Not perfect but it is on the spot!

GREAT!

2:31 - Let's see that again!

Might as well. After the next one it's gonna be a while before you feel like practicing spot landings again.

2:54 - That's right, within one foot...!

Super! If that had been a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place you'd have been in pretty good shape!

3:01 - WARNING!!! This is going to be UGLY!

That's OK. I've seen hundreds like this.

4:56 - Here comes the U G L Y...!

Cool!

5:29 - For you sickos, here it is again in slow motion

Thanks for keeping me in mind dude.

5:48 - Moral of this story is?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest?

Flair timing is crucial...!

Oh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

Right.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29701
Flair timing is crucial

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11 02:55:45 UTC
Long Beach

I was injured and thought I broke my right arm. Turns out I'm OK, though in pain.

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2013/08/11 03:19:04 UTC
Alexandria, Virginia

What happened?

He wasn't trying to do a safe landing. He was trying to do a spot landing.

This wasn't a flair timing issue. You still had a lot of energy and never really rounded out.

Yeah. He flew it into the ground.

piano_man - 2013/08/11 03:53:42 UTC
Georgia

Ice it - arm, elbow, shoulder, etc. 20 min. on then 20 min off - all day long or as much as you can. Do this for at least 2 days. Then reassess.

Sounds like fun.

You more than likely do have some torn soft tissue. I speak from experience.

I had a "hard" landing that didn't hurt me much or so I thought. Even flew the next couple of days. Then on the 3rd day while relaxing in hot tub, my arm "slipped" out of its socket with a lot of pain. Long story short, small tear to the labrium. Took a year to heal it. Healed it with some Chi Kung, Yoga, and swimming.

Lockout Mountain primary?

On another note, it's not considered a spot landing if you even CRUSH the cone but then let your base tube or wheels, nose of the glider touch the ground. GL

Yep. Keep those wheels off the surface no matter what the cost.

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11 03:59:11 UTC

Hence the title 'Spot Landing Practice".

Keep practicing. You'll get it.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/08/11 04:07:50 UTC

The more you fly, the better you get. The more you fly, the better you get. The more you fly, the better you get. The more you fly, the better you get.

Yep. Keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

piano_man - 2013/08/11 04:16:21 UTC

I'm glad you didn't break your neck.

Yeah, let's reserve that one for Davis and/or Rooney.

Looking at it again several times I'd be really surprised if you didn't injure your left labrium. I have a theory that goes a bit like this. Our biology (bodies) have evolved so that we can hunt, fight big animals and if or when we are injured there are mechanisms that help us get back to the cave. Namely, swelling.

Usually not a good thing but for short term it helps stabilize the joints so that we can get back to our cave or home. Once there and after awhile the damage will be revealed. If you're interested in knowing more about how I "recovered" just ask. Most (if not every one) here are eager to help.

Yep.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

AFTER someone slams in. (Hey Jason... Any smart ass remarks you wanna make?)

Ice it brother, and maybe some ibuprofen; helps keep the inflammation down. Also, no dynamic movements for a few days. Take it easy.

Tons of great medical advice.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29701
Flair timing is crucial

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11 04:59:13 UTC

I never raised my hands on the downtubes and didn't push out soon enough

Did you NEED to have your hands on the downtubes?

IdeFly - 2013/08/11 05:02:42 UTC
Arizona

As far as the impact goes, there's a lot more to it than flair timing.

How 'bout we learn to SPELL "flair timing" before we get too far into discussing it?

You need to discuss it with your instructor...

Mel Torres - 93654 - H3 - 2013/07/20 - Rob McKenzie - FL 360 FSL HA TUR

I thought he was supposed to be proficient in this before he was signed off on his Three. This is Day One stuff.

...and/or fellow trusted pilots.

Instructors and other qualified pilot fiends.

Take what you read on this forum with a grain of salt.

I mostly read it for laughs.

Though the "virtual" pilots on here may mostly have good intentions, they may not know what they're talking about. ( including myself )

Yeah. Stick with Ryan.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 07:01:39 UTC
Why would CSS want that when his last landing clinic resulted in a broken arm to one of his students?

Hard to go wrong.

Thanks for posting the vid.

Certainly a welcome addition to MY collection.

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11 05:28:09 UTC

That was my intent. To practice approach, downwind, base, final and "spot Landings.

You should probably practice the one of those that got your glider damaged and your arm nearly broken a lot more - or a lot less. This is so confusing. See what Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release or Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has to say on the matter.

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11 05:34:53 UTC

I think we need to get over our egos and own up to our mistakes in order for all of us to learn, so as help others avoid these mistakes.

I think you need to question some of your - and hang gliding's - basic assumptions.

Steve Morris - 2013/08/11 05:39:39 UTC

Hey flex wing experts, is Mel's harness adjusted properly?

You mean the one he used to nail the spot on the previous flight?

Something looks funny when he kicks out of prone. His torso seems to stay horizontal.

He flew the fuckin' glider into the fuckin' ground.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!

Mel Torres - 2013/08/11

I was practicing my spot landings at Andy Jackson Airpark and had on decent landing ane really UGLY landing...!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

I'd say you got this hang gliding thing pretty well figured out, Mel.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.flytandem.com/accident/index.htm

7-9-13 6PM Local novice hang glider pilot is on approach and overshooting the field. In order to mitigate this problem the pilot decides to turn to a heading that has him landing with a quartering tailwind. The result is a very hard impact that would have been far worse if there weren't wheels on the glider. Still even with wheels there was an injury to the pilot's knee that kept him from flying for several weeks.

The far better option would have been to land into the wind off field. Placing priority of hitting the field downwind over a landing into the wind in 2' to 3' of brush?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29701
Flair timing is crucial

Mel Torres - 2013/08/12 02:29:36 UTC

Just read the article and viewed Jim's videos.
Awesome read and videos.

And lemme share with you Jonathan's take - along with several peripheral posts - on the above:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

Fletcher - 2012/03/14 13:11:24 UTC

Most of us (me included) don't land as well as we should
Confidence in our abilities makes a HUGE difference
Solution = Ryan Voight or Rob McKenzie landing clinic

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.


[video][/video]

In that case I would need to use the Big O Loop and do about ten reps in a single day.

Andy Long - 2012/03/14 17:28:04 UTC
California

I never use a one-size-fits-all approach to my when and where hand positions because by doing so I'm leaving out valuable tools in my bag of tricks.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I never use a one-size-fits-all approach to my when and where hand positions because by doing so I'm leaving out valuable tools in my bag of tricks.

<rant> January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone. </rant>

What a breath of fresh, sane air you two are.

And Jonathan is as experienced and accomplished at coming down in injun' country in real XC conditions and circumstances and surviving as anybody you're gonna find.

And Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney spends what little time he doesn't devote to:

- landing Dragonflies on well groomed airstrips

- telling us how:

-- the Rooney Link is the single greatest safety device ever developed (through quite literally hundreds of thousands of trail and error tows by brave tug drivers such as himself (but before he arrived))

-- much contempt he has for:
--- the muppets he tows
--- anyone who engineers anything that isn't based on a bent parachute pin and a loop of 130 pound test fishing line

- waiting in line to kiss Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's ass

- figuring out how to cover his old obvious and outrageous lies with new obvious and outrageous lies

to parking gliders after short flights on aero and scooter tow environment putting greens very similar to the one in which you almost broke your arm over the weekend by flying your glider into the ground.

Tom Emery - 2013/08/12 02:55:39 UTC
San Diego

Hope everything heals okay. I'm not here to give advice, just to wish you a speedy recovery. If I were to give advice... I would say... spend an afternoon doing some remedial training... with the man... Rob McKenzie.

If *I* were to give advice... I would say...

Mel Torres - 93654 - H3 - 2013/07/20 - Rob McKenzie - FL 360 FSL HA TUR

he's already spent some time doing some training... with the man... Rob McKenzie.

And I'm of the position that if you keep doing more of the same thing you're highly likely to get more of the same results.

And if Rob The-Man McKenzie is such a super professional conscientious instructor than why the fuck isn't he in this discussion about this student of his who went a solid three weeks after his Hang Three signoff before flying his glider into the ground in the middle of the Andy Jackson Happy Acres putting green in nothing conditions and nearly snapping an arm in half?

As far as I'm concerned a crash like this is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT the fault and responsibility of the instructor.

And a GOOD instructor would've informed his student to never under any circumstances attempt to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

...spot land a hang glider. If spot landing is what floats your boat get a fucking helicopter.

And I was nearby at the fly-in on 1989/07/03 when Dave Collins was trying to do the fucking goddam spots for his fucking goddam Three signoff when he did in the Hyner View Happy Acres putting green pretty much exactly what Mel did, folded his Mark IV control frame back, got his neck broken, and - for all intents and purposes - ended his hang gliding career.