I am very sad over the loss of a fellow pilot Zack and for the sad burden on the entire Quest community.
Fuck the entire Quest community - and anyone who's on speaking terms with these pathologically self serving pieces o' shit.
We are pilots...
Y'all fly hang gliders but only a small fraction of a percent of you are pilots.
...and in the end all judgement is the responsibility of the pilot in command.
If by Pilot In Command you mean the guy on the glider - and you do - BULL FUCKING SHIT. I'm not sure just how the atmosphere works on whatever planet you landed from but a guy with full and sole control of the throttle has not inconsiderable influence on the safety of any powered flight - especially when it's within a couple of hundred feet of the runway.
Anyone that has some towing experience should know that there are circumstances and challenges that are unpredictable.
Bull fucking ¸shit. Hang glider towing ain't Vegas and never in its entire history has anybody crashed because of anything unpredictable happening - and Zack Marzec's snuffing couldn't possibly have been...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...any LESS predictable. The problem is that we've had a third of a century's worth of total fucking assholes who've elected to...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation..."
...totally ignore the predictions because they don't fit in with their religion.
...that is way we as pilots need to be focused and ready.
Did you get one of those little red "FOCUSED PILOT" rubber wristbands from USHGA? That should be just about all you need for safe towing.
with a sailplane the tug pilot in an emergency can give you the rope at any time.
And the fucking tug pilot can very easily kill the glider by giving it the rope at any time in an emergency. Need some examples?
We are trained to respond to this at all stages of the tow.
By excellent tandem aerotow instructors like Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Paul and Lauren Tjaden, Arlan Birkett, Zack Marzec.
First 50 foot 100 foot 200 foot etc.
Simulated at two thousand feet in smooth air.
the lesson I take from this tragic event is to have a action ready at every stage of the tow and anticipate as much as I can.
Yeah. That's the lesson that Cloud 9, Ridgely, Lockout, Kitty Hawk, Wallaby, Quest teach. I'm really glad you understand it so well. I guess Zack was just doping off a bit and didn't have an action ready at the stage of the tow when his pro toad bridle didn't allow him to keep his nose from pointing straight up and his Rooney Link didn't allow him to stay on tow the extra couple of seconds it would've taken to get things stabilized. I'm pretty sure he'd have been just fine if he'd only anticipated that.
Of course what a REAL pilot learns and knows is that there's a lot of shit out there that isn't survivable so you:
- can't afford to get into it
- don't use shit equipment just 'cause most of the time people don't have any problems with it
Lauren Paul and Mark the tug pilot my thoughts are with you doing this difficult time.
Nothing would make me happier than to see all three of those motherfuckers doing difficult time - about fifteen to twenty years worth of it in a medium security facility. I can't think of anything that would send a more positive message to the assholes who control this game.
Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all.
The list below will give you a good starting point for attaching an upper aerotow release to our current production gliders. There are a number of other factors that may cause you to want to move it slightly forward or aft of the starting point.
Release point
The primary factors that determine where the tow point needs to be are:
- the tow speed of the tug
- the glider's aspect ratio
- the pitch bar pressure at tow speeds
- the glider's top speed, trim speed and the pilot's weight
The proper placement of the tow point will trim the glider with light but positive pitch pressure while under tow.
Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.
Rob / Wills Wing DOESN'T say that towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is something that one can do as easily / safely as one can with a top release after a certain amount of experience or practice or being at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
Wills Wing says that:
- the:
-- proper placement of the upper tow point will trim the glider with light but positive pitch pressure while under tow
-- "pro toad" method is not as easy as using a TWO point release
- towing without a top release WILL:
-- cause the base tube to be positioned much further back
-- result in increased pitch pressure
-- make lockouts much more difficult to "correct"
- the higher the top tow point the better
Do you really think it's a good idea to be pro toad when you have the possibility of invisible dust devils lurking about...
Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare.
...however rare they might be?
The higher the top tow point the better.
- Isn't that pretty consistent with what I was just trying to tell you about the way the Dragonfly tow bridle is configured to elevate the towline to the level of the thrust line and that it would be a good idea to do likewise with respect to the glider's bridle and center of drag?
- If the higher the top tow point the better what conclusions might one make about a configuration in which there IS NO top attachment point - a configuration which, in effect, moves the top attachment point as low as it can possibly go?
Any of this make any sense, Paul? Ya gonna do anything to encourage people to tow two point? Or are ya just gonna keep throwing them up in Marzec mode and hope that the next guy who tumbles will be high enough to be able to get a parachute out and open?
Yeah. And eleven and a half days subsequent to the initial post which was "a couple of weeks" subsequent to the actual event he (finally) references it:
Would've thunk that little detail, along with the:
- eighty percent VG
- camera mounted on a sprog and a third to half open sprog zipper
- fast tug
would've been mentioned as one of the "companding factors" in the initial post so's everyone gets the right picture burned in at the initial reading. (I had dismissed and forgotten about the dust devil because it seemed to be following the pattern of the Zack Marzec dust devil which was an obvious Industry fabrication only appearing five days after the event and after people had had time to construct and agree on a palatable story.)
Would've been nicer had it been just a thermal 'cause people are a lot more scared of getting killed by the much more common and less avoidable phenomenon but, for the purpose of the exercise, it doesn't matter much.
- The dust devil wasn't so visible that either Joel or Matt avoided it.
- What was done to the glider was well within the capabilities of a thermal. (I've personally experienced worse in free flight.)
- Ben doesn't cite it as an issue negatively affecting his recovery.
And we can let Paul, Lauren, Rooney, Trisa, Tim Herr have their invisible dust devil if they really want it. Either way they're saying that a highly experienced, pro toad, Rooney Link protected, Tandem Aerotow Instructor can get towed up in typical flying conditions and not survive the ensuing ambulance ride and there's absolutely nothing that could've been done better to change the outcome.
Yeah, we did have a highly experienced Tandem Aerotow Instructor tumble and die here last February in fairly routine conditions. But the weak links we were using were dangerously and often illegally light and he was towing just off his shoulders with no attachment on the keel to trim the nose down properly.
If he'd been flying with:
- either a midrange weak link or a two point bridle he'd have been fine.
- both a mid range weak link and a two point bridle he'd have hardly noticed the crap he flew into.
We've beefed things up on the Dragonfly's end, mandate mid to upper range weak links, are fully compliant with FAA aerotowing weak link regulations and only permit one point towing for people with arms one and a half times the normal length.
Quest approach...
We've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years but sometimes shit just happens that nothing can be done about and nobody really understands what went wrong with that one. But we've got a huge track record and you'll probably be just fine.
Thanks for the catch.
I'll shortly have a few more comments on this one on the "Releases" thread: http://www.kitestrings.org/post4872.html#p4872
(Had my post numbers messed up for fifteen minutes or so - this one's good.)
I've been meaning to write up something as per your request Davis but I don't really have much to add.
There hasn't been anything to add in decades.
We had similar results on our actual testing.
Meaning Quest, Ridgely, Rooney, Trisa are all full of shit.
We do stationary winch towing (and step-towing). We think it is the best kept-secret in hang gliding (not sure why it is a secret)...
Because it's a big Ponzi scheme - and the more the players can suppress solid information and cultivate doubt, confusion, ignorance, and stupidity the better off they are.
...but when it comes to weak-links, the basics are the same, the pressures...
Asshole.
...are different but the fact that it's a hydraulic-regulated tension on the line, makes weak-links semi-useless as the winch will regulate the tension to the set amount...
It doesn't make them semi-useless. They'll make it physically impossible for the glider to be overloaded by towline tension.
...ie, the weak-link 'should' never break.
Goddam right. The fuckin' weak link should never break in ANY halfway competently run towing operation of any flavor.
It certainly doesn't mean you won't lock out as it can happen very easy but it's rare that the weak-link will get to do it's job (save the glider from failing) in winching.
Make sure there's nothing in front of an aerotowed glider that'll blow at under a thousand bounds. Go way up high and try to get it to fail.
I believe the same would go for hydraulic regulated pay-out towing (which I have no experience with) but does not apply to scooter towing (throttle controlled pressure).
Learn the difference between tension and pressure or get the fuck out of the business.
Dawson - 2013/08/07 21:33:56 UTC
I was once towing behind a hydraulic regulated payout winch, with an operator who firmly believed the same thing.
What? That tension and pressure are synonyms?
I was very careful to always be completely ready to hook onto the tow line - with my weaklink already in place - before he was ready for me to hook on.
What WAS *YOUR* weak link and what were you trying to use it for?
So, then this one time, at about fifty feet up, my weak link suddenly broke. I landed and returned to the start of the runway and waited half an hour for him to return to try again, fully expecting him to be fuming about bloody weak links breaking causing unencessary delays. When he finally came down, he told me it was a good thing that I had a weak link on because the line on the drum had developed a cross-over and locked up.
1. Yeah, 'cause like no fuckin' way did you have a...
...guillotine he coulda used to abort an emergency situation.
2. So you weren't having any problem with the glider and didn't notice any surge in tension but your trusty safe towing system focal point sensed that there was a problem with the winch half a mile away and made a good decision in the interest of your safety. And then when you tried to install the replacement weak link it started whining and tugging on your hand and alerted you to the fact that Timmy had just fallen down a well.
3. If you'd been trying to ride out a Marzec caliber thermal surge with your nose pointed straight up and your weak link had suddenly broken would your asshole winch driver have rushed to the wreckage and told you what a great thing it was that you'd had a weak link in your final moments of consciousness?
What a load o' crap.
P.S. Somebody ask Davis what weak links he's permitting people to use at Big Spring and what percentage of them make it up into the legal range.
That is why I said "semi-useless"! I was kinda comparing it to the scenario of using weak links in aerotowing...
In which the fuckin' Rooney Link can be totally lethal - as Zack Marzec discovered the hard way flying with the people who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years.
...as that is what was being discussed here.
There's NOTHING of substance being discussed there. As soon as things start getting on a positive track Davis starts threatening people and locking threads down.
That is the only time we have weak-link breaks as well... when the line suddenly gets over loaded - tangled line, line digs, etc.
The goddam weak link isn't there to keep the goddam LINE from getting overloaded. It's there to keep the goddam GLIDER from getting overloaded. Try saying that five or ten million times like I have. See if you can get that concept to sink in.
It is, or should be, rare or impossible for line crossovers to happen while under tension. Unless the line was crossed over while reeling it in after the last tow and then while paying it out for you, it suddenly came unlooped and shock loaded.
Sorry, I missed the part about shock loading. If I recall correctly he didn't detect anything whatsoever amiss.
And lemme tell ya sumpin', asshole...
A weak link that'll blow when the guy on the glider doesn't feel anything amiss can kill you in a New York minute - and WILL do so if/when you find yourself in a Zack Marzec situation.
That would be similar to us on our stationary winch where we release the first stage of our two stage tow bridle under too much tension...
Define "too much tension".
...and it gets shock loaded and the weak link breaks prematurely.
February, when most of the country is suffering under the ravages of winter, is the time for thought and discussion about our sport of hang gliding. Ideas which lay dormant in the rush of the flying season have time to mature. Such an idea is towing. Seeds that have been sown in the past through independent efforts and distributed through our publications in the forms of letters and articles are now sprouting in the minds of many pilots. Wills Wing provided the fertile ground with their dealer seminar for '83. Dealers from across the country came together in a forum to learn and exchange ideas. One of these ideas is Skyting, a new way to attach a rope to a flex wing glider to tow it aloft. The skyting system centers around a bridle which appears to have eliminated the "lockout" phenomenon. By pulling from the "center of mass" of the glider and pilot instead of from the control bar, the system simulates gravity. The pilot retains full and normal control over pitch and roll, at least in theory.
I came from Chattanooga with the idea that this bridle could be used to tow flex wings behind ultralights but I was still in the gearing-up phase of my efforts. I had studied the Skyting literature and bridle from Donnell Hewitt and produced my own bridle with an alternate release system. I brought these to the seminar to show and discuss with other pilots and dealers. In Chattanooga, a center for Eastern U.S. hang gliding, I had already found great interest and good reports from pilots with experience in using this bridle system. Even the arch-conservative Florida gang was showing interest.
During breaks and in the evening after seminar business, I broached the subject with many of the other dealers. Rather than resistance or the skepticism I expected to have to overcome, I found that the mood was completely open and ripe for action. In fact, Mark Airey from Kitty Hawk Kites was there and had already been doing some towing with the system. And there were others with towing experience such as Michael Robertson from High Perspective, in Canada.
The logic of the "center of mass" bridle sells itself. When I explained the concept to Rich Pfeiffer and Roger McCracken, they were ready for me. Towing had already appealed to them and they had gone so far as to acquire a truck-mounted winch.
Pfeiffer wants 200 miles and his reasoning is that it will happen over flat land. You have to start early as soon as it's soarable, but you risk burning out and wasting time. Roger sees the same advantage for his test flying program. We decided to go for it as soon as the seminar was over and invited the other dealers to come out and watch and/or participate, hoping that their experience would contribute to the effort. It was decided that we would meet at sun up (groan) at Lake Elsinore on Tuesday, February 15.
Talk about deja vu. We had all seen the unveiling of the artwork by Rod Stafford for the new Wills ad. That was the drive to Elsinore captured perfectly and my expectations were riding high.
As the sun came up over the sand flats, we began setting up the equipment. We were extremely fortunate to have Michael Robertson's expertise on the winch to get us started and Mark Airey was to be our initial test pilot as he was experienced with the Skyting bridle. Attachment points for the bridle were secured to the keel and Mark's harness and he elected to use Donnell's bridle as he was used to it. We would try mine later.
The first few flights were unimpressive and a couple were aborted by release misadjustment. The bridle is designed such that when the lower release is activated, the top release is tripped by an auto release line. The length of this line is therefore critical. Rich, Roger, myself and some others felt and expressed some doubt at this point but as our truck and winch crew got their act together and the bridle adjustments were made, we started seeing good smooth climbouts and pilots landing with big grins on their faces. Phil Lee had gotten a turn by now and he was ecstatic.
Rich decided it was his turn so we rigged his Bulletman and up he went. After that there was a continuous stream of flights made from 600 to 1,000 feet and pilots landing with grins, muttering about "cake". We had switched bridles when Rich flew because he and Roger liked my three-ring releases better than Donnell's. Some thirty flights were made during the day. We used a 187 Harrier I and Betty Moyer's 147 Harrier. I hung back, adjusting harnesses and bridles and observing the tow truck in action, until most of the others had flown at least once and decided it was my turn. I crowded to the head of the line. The wind was light all during the day and was at max about seven mph. I was nervous mainly about the start. The climb outs were, to me, very steep in many cases, and felt that way to me as I went up but that phase was over quickly. I got into my cocoon and soon found the top bridle in my way as the tow angle steepened so I naturally released from the top line. My only concern was that the oscillation in yaw that I could not dampen out. This was expected, as previous pilots had noted it and Donnell had reported this in his late experience with high aspect gliders. I estimated my altitude at 1,000 feet as the truck stopped and I let go the lower release from my harness.
I am convinced that the lockout phenomenon does not occur in this system so long as the bridle never touches the flying wires or control bar. The oscillations we experienced in yaw sometimes exceeded 45 degrees from the direction of tow but always tended to reverse themselves. The pilot's overcontrol was the element that aggravated them. I was annoyed and embarrassed but never threatened by these oscillations.
Pitch control was, however, not what I had expected. The bridle makes a pulley system such that the tow force is divided between the center of the glider's mass and the pilot.
The bridle line runs from a release at the keel just ahead of the heart bolt, through a ring (tied to the tow rope), to (and through) a ring at the release on the pilot's waistband and back to the apex ring where it is tied to the tow rope. This forms a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage which preserves the pilot's pitch authority in theory. The problem comes with the changing geometry of the bridle when towed from a surface vehicle. It is necessary to route the lower bridle below the control bar base tube to achieve a higher tow. In the initial stages of tow-up this has a tendency to pull the base tube forward, increasing the climb angle. The slower the tow, the less this is apparently a problem. In the case of an aero tow behind an ultralight, the lower bridle could be above the base tube as the glider would always be towed straight ahead, and pitch control would be preserved.
As the day went on there was an increasing mood of confidence which ultimately led to a rather grim end to the day's flying. It seemed to me and some others that the climb angle was steeper than desirable but everything was working so far. Matt Wagner observed some flights and expressed concern over the possibility of a tow line failure at extreme pitch attitudes. His counsel, based on experience, provided prophetic within minutes.
In our eagerness to accommodate everyone who wanted to try the system, we were constantly changing harnesses and lower release attachment points. When Howard Haig's turn came, the auto release line to the top release had become too short for the harness which he had borrowed.
Something of a carnival atmosphere was prevailing as more and more people arrived. The UP Arrow came gliding in from a tow-up by an MX. There was even a Nomad ultralight there whose owner wanted a tow on our winch.
As Howard's flight began, I noticed what I thought to be one of the steeper climb angles of the day, however, conditions had not changed much and the truck crew thought that things on their end had not changed. At about 75 feet the upper release tripped and allowed an even steeper climb and as momentum carried him up another 25 feet, the upper ring on the bridle slammed into the apex ring, shearing the perlon rope and bending the ring. The bridle thus became detached, leaving Howard at 100 feet with his keel vertical and zero airspeed.
What happened next was predictable. By most accounts, Howard pulled in hard. The 187 Harrier rotated through and tumbled. When it went over on its back, Howard lost the control bar. In the second rotation, he went for his chute in the most graphic demonstration of the Right Stuff I have ever witnessed. The glider failed in the third rotation. The sail split from the trailing edge to double surface on the left and the right leading edge failed, causing the glider to fall off on the left and hit the ground on a wing tip. It is to his credit that the chute of that borrowed harness hit the ground first! Howard hit hard on his left side and was unconscious when we reached him. He revived after about two minutes and is recovering with a broken left femur.
After a lot of thought, the consensus seems to be that human factors accounted for Howard's accident and no fault can be attributed to the Donnell system, though what we learned that day will certainly lead to improvements in both systems, human and mechanical.
It should be made very clear that what we did was not "Skyting" as that term applies to a system defined by Donnell Hewitt's Skyting criteria. These are guidelines to assure safety while towing. They are available in the "Skyting" publications along with a wealth of experience published by Donnell. If you tow or are considering towing you own it to yourselves to take advantage of this information. Had we observed all, instead of some of the eight criteria, our experience would have been more pleasant. As it is we are shocked into a sense of cautious optimism.
I am convinced that the "lockout" is history and that the era of towing and flatland flying is at hand. As Rich Pfeiffer says, "I'm tired of driving up mountains."
For more information on SKYTING, contact Donnell Hewitt at: 315 N. Wanda, Kingsville, TX 78363.
1983/02/05
Howard Haig
Wills Wing Harrier 187
Lake Elsinore
truck mounted winch
tow angle: low (six degrees)
bridle: one point
max tension: 1 G
rope break: 100-150 feet
whipstall/tailslide
tumble rotations: 3
final flight of hang gliding career
on site:
- Mark Airey
- Phil Lee
- Roger McCracken
- Betty Moyer (Pfeiffer)
- Rich Pfeiffer
- Tom Phillips
- Mike Robertson
- Rod Stafford
- Matt Wagner
asshole percentage: 44 minimum
cause: http://www.kitestrings.org/post2631.html#p2631
Skyting
Donnell Hewett - 1983/03
In my opinion, the most glaring mistake made by the group was their failure to use a properly designed weak link. When the perlon bridle broke at 500+ pounds or so, a whipstall with its corresponding loss of control was inevitable. Had they been using a weak link that broke at 200 pounds, the pilot could have easily flown out of trouble.
rope didn't break soon enough
2013/02/02
Zack Marzec
Moyes Xtralite 147
Quest Air
aero - Dragonfly
tow angle: low
bridle: one point
max tension: 1 G
rope break: 150 feet
whipstall/tailslide
tumble rotations: 2
final flight of hang gliding career
on site:
- Mark Frutiger
- Lauren Tjaden
- Paul Tjaden
- ...
- ...
- ...
- ...
- ...
- ...
- ...
asshole percentage: 100
cause: http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.
This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.
You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
You have a plane taking off at, to some extent by necessity, a steep climb angle and always, as a consequence of problems at the other end of the line and/or the air, with the possibility of an extremely steep climb angle. If there's a catastrophic and instantaneous loss of thrust as a consequence of a defect in the power transmission system there's a very high risk off things getting ugly. Common fucking sense.
Tom Phillips - 1983/05
The first few flights were unimpressive and a couple were aborted by release misadjustment. The bridle is designed such that when the lower release is activated, the top release is tripped by an auto release line. The length of this line is therefore critical.
As the day went on there was an increasing mood of confidence which ultimately led to a rather grim end to the day's flying. It seemed to me and some others that the climb angle was steeper than desirable but everything was working so far.
People are seeing the potential for disaster but they keep on pushing their luck.
Mike Robertson is there and he's published his fucking...
...Charts of Reliability well over three years prior but apparently there's nothing in them about routinely standing gliders on their tails below a hundred feet on crappy Rube Goldberg tow equipment.
Matt Wagner observed some flights and expressed concern over the possibility of a tow line failure at extreme pitch attitudes.
Duh. Every last one of those motherfuckers KNOWS they have a big problem.
His counsel, based on experience, provided prophetic within minutes.
Big surprise.
The bridle was a two point two to one with the bottom end unquestionably routed under the basetube but at 75 feet when the top connection autoreleased (in a manner not all that dissimilar to what went on with Eric Aasletten's idiot three-string configuration) he was towing one point with the bridle pushing up on the basetube. The final 25 feet would've looked a lot like the top of this one:
If Howard Haig had been using a two point one to one bridle routed under the basetube, a downtube mounted Wallaby release, and a one and a half G or over or no weak link he'd have had some tow tension trimming the nose down, less force pushing the bar forward/up, and no danger of blowing off tow.
But ever since...
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one. I want to know without a doubt (1) when I am pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when I push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because I push too hard."
...common sense has been down the toilet.
And somebody find me a comment from Mike Robertson...
And there were others with towing experience such as Michael Robertson from High Perspective, in Canada.
...from High Perspective in Canada on this tumble from a hundred feet.
Com'on this start to feel like troling... you sound like EVERYONE is going to DIE from winching That winching only works the Tad-way...
Just chill out and ease off on the capitals, or do you really mean to shout?
Tad just likes to go from forum to forum starting shit.
He was been banned from the hangliding.org, and this same shit has been hashed out on the OZ report.
From what I have read, he is no longer flying and has all this free time to drum shit up.
I had him ignored here, but I come here today and I was logged out and I see all his posts.... it will never end........ ever.
Check those groups, you will see the same frustration there also.
Mike Bomstad - 2009/12/12 06:46:44 UTC
I know Tad causes some to think, but all the "your going to die...." gets old.
Mike Bomstad - 2010/01/17 05:31:44 UTC
this is still going....... I tried to tell ya it would never end
Recommended breaking load of a weak link for surface-based towing is from 100% to 120% of the towed weight. This will usually be approximately 90-135 kg (200-300 lb) for solo operations.
Experienced pilots flying in turbulent conditions may prefer weak links at the higher end of the range, while less experienced pilots and students (at the discretion of their instructor) should be at or below the low end of that range. A single loop (two strands) of #205 leech line should be adequate for solo flights, and three strands should be good for tandem flights.
Four strands of 130 lb test braided dacron kite string (a single loop folded through the tow line loop with sides on or through the release, resulting in an actual breaking strength of about 230 lb), is sufficient for average solo pilots. 150 lb test can be used for tandem flights and larger pilots. The total strength of the weak link does not equal the sum of the strengths of the individual strands because of the effects of the rings.
Aerotowing operations should use weak links which will break at a tow force of 80% to 100% of the total towed weight (usually 90-114 kg or 200-250 lb). Since two-point bridles are usually used, if the weak link is at one end of the bridle rather than at the end of the tow rope, the weak link itself must break at less than half of the maximum allowable tow force. A single loop of 60 kg (130 lb) braided fishing line, or a single loop of #205 leech line slightly weakened by an extra overhand knot, should give an acceptable 55 kg (120 lb) breaking strength, limiting the tow force to 109 kg (240 lb).
Tandem operations should use weak links of 100% or less of the towed weight for surface towing, usually approximately 175-180 kg (385-400 lb), and 80% or less for aerotowing.
3.4.2 - Weak Link Specifications For Paragliders
Recommended breaking load is 75% or less of the towed weight.
Knots used in tieing weak links:
To tie the weak link line to a metal ring, an "improved clinch knot" is a good choice, since it will not slip and does not weaken the line.
To tie an end of the weak link line to itself, a "grapevine knot with safeties" is simple and effective. The "blood knot" is also good.
Alan Maguire - 2010/01/17 10:38:46 UTC
We know the recomendations. The point i am trying to make is the recomendations are misguided! They are to weak and break to readily. If they break for no reason they are putting pilots in danger. You say novice should use even weaker ones. Why? Do you want them to climb 15ft off the ground weak link break? Watch to see if they can handle the resulting pendulum into the ground?
James Bradley - 2005/06/21 22:15:17 UTC
Moderator
New York City
Towing safety
Pick one.
Paraglider towing really unnerved me at first.
If you're smart (and you're not) it'll keep unnerving you 'cause you dumb fucks don't know any more what you're doing and talking about than the hangies from whom you plagiarized your SOPs.
I have done enough of it now to feel confident with it and to get my USHGA towing signoff...
Good. There's nobody more likely to kill himself than someone with a USHGA towing signoff...
James Bradley - 81591 - P4 - 2005/06/22 - Chris Santacroce - FL ST TFL TST 360 CL FSL HA PS RLF RS TUR XC - OBS, TAND INST
...and a feeling of confidence.
...but my experience is still limited to 35 tows and it still feels a bit spooky to do it.
Relax and enjoy yourself. You have a USHGA towing signoff.
Here are some things I think I know about towing.
What? You lack confidence in the fine USHGA instruction and training you underwent? Can't you just check anything on which you're a bit fuzzy against the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?
Please chime in with corrections, amplifications, better information, or just your own experiences.
Why? What would you do differently?
Almost all my towing has been with "payout" winches on vehicles or boats. (A "payout" winch is not a winch in the usual sense, rather it is a spool of lightweight line with a brake that controls the tension on the line as it pays out from the spool. The spool is always mounted on a vehicle, like a car or a boat that drives while you climb behind it. There are many variations and little standardization, but this is the basic idea.)
There are also winches that tow by pulling in line. In some cases it is simple, winding the line up on a spool, across a big field and upwind from where you start. Another model has a down-and-back loop of line on the ground going around a pulley at the other end of the field, with a leader attached to one point on that loop.
You want a winch operator who either has a lot of experience, or who is being assisted by someone with a lot of experience.
Yeah, if your winch operator or the person assisting him has a lot of experience...
While you are learning, or if you have not towed for awhile, look at the glider OFTEN during a tow. Once a second is not too much. At the same time do not stare at it, because you need to keep your horizon reference. So looking forward to see the horizon and the line direction in front of you, then looking back at the glider, and repeating about every second, is a healthy approach. (If the sun is overhead this is really hard on the eyes, so you might want to do your first tows under an overcast or not at midday.) Looking at the glider will show you when the it is going to one side or the other so you can correct quickly, while you learn the feeling so you do not need to look so much.
Right after takeoff is the most dangerous time, of course, because you are close to the ground. If you use way too much brake...
...or experience too much break...
...and/or if your winch operator uses way too much tension, you could stall without room to recover.
Bullshit. Nobody ever stalled without room to recover because a driver jerked him up with too much tension...
Just as with launching from a mountain midday, it is good to have in mind the possibility of a turbulence-induced collapse right after you leave the ground. Be mentally prepared to weight shift and add a little brake to the flying side, to maintain your heading while the wing reinflates.
Once in the air, you normally want to aim your glider straight down the towline. If there is a crosswind, the line will not lead straight toward the boat or truck, it will lead down to the downwind side and then curve over to the vehicle. That is ok, continue to aim straight down the line. This will give you the highest tow and the best control and safety.
Having a competent driver and the abilities to stay on and, without control compromise, instantly blow off tow will give you the best control and safety. And you're screwed on all counts.
An exception is after you are high on a boat tow, the operator may direct you to fly to one side or the other so you can follow a turn a bit to the outside. Cutting the corner on a turn will cost you a lot of altitude.
Steering is best accomplished with as little brake as possible. Generally you should never have brake applied on both sides after you start to run (perhaps just a tap to lift off). When one hand comes down, the other goes up, if it is not up already. Try to feel the glider and anticipate rather than react. Remember that "as little brake as possible" can still be a lot of brake on one side, if you get turned away from the towline by inattention or a wind gust.
Oh! So a WIND GUST can turn you! And here I was thinking that you could only get turned as a consequence of being inattentive or making wrong corrections. I'm not entirely sure that this is as entirely safe as I originally believed.
You MUST get back on track quickly, and that can take a pretty big pull for a moment.
But you:
- WON'T be locked out because you weren't inattentive and didn't make any wrong corrections
- WILL be able to get back on track quickly
so don't sweat things.
If you use weight shift it should be very responsive and alive.
Like Zack Marzec was for a couple of minutes after he hit the runway.
Again, try to anticipate.
Bullshit. You're giving us the usual crap - which is what you were taught by your asshole instructor - that just as long as you're not a total moron you can fly with an inaccessible release and a chintzy piece of fishing line between you and the towline and there will be nothing that can hit you that you won't be able to handle and come out smelling like a goddam rose.
You wanna anticipate something useful? Read some fatality reports and think of some worst case scenarios in which you'd need:
- both hands on the controls at all times
- uninterrupted thrust under full control of the two pilots in the operation
- ability to terminate the tow the instant of your decision
In my experience I am better off with no weight shift than with sluggish or late moves, especially at the beginning of a tow.
You need to think beyond your experience. Nobody who's been killed on a tow launch ever before experienced the set of circumstances that killed him. And only a small fraction of a percent are smart enough to consider what would've happened to them had the shit hit the fan a few hundred feet lower. And only a small fraction of a percent of those are smart enough to do something to give them better odds in a similar situation a few hundred feet lower.
If I am really on it then it works well. Once I am high, if I am following a boat around the outside of a turn, I may be able to use a sustained weight shift for a couple of minutes until the boat straightens out.
At the end of the tow, I prefer to release as soon as I see the car or boat stop, because there is still tension on the line and it is easy to release.
Ever think about how easy it would be to release if you were at hundred feet, had no say about the tension, and were using both hands to fight a lockout?
Staying on for the last twenty feet of altitude means the line goes slack, and my bridle suddenly requires two hands or a hand and a foot to release. By then I am normally high, so I have time to deal with it, but I don't like it when I have any trouble disconnecting, so I prefer to release a few seconds earlier. Your bridle may be different.
But let's not discuss our ability to release in a worst case scenario. That might frighten the children.
I use a split bridal...
You were doing OK on that up to this point.
...from towmeup.com.
Fuck towmeup.com.
Split means when I'm not actually on tow the bridal does nothing to impede me getting in or out of the harness, it is just two extra straps hanging down.
Ain't it just great the way Stewie engineered that thing so as not to impede you getting in or out of the harness.
The bridal attaches to the top of the biners under and around the risers, sitting tightly enough that it should never fall down and load a biner gate.
Who the fuck gives a rat's ass whether or not it loads the goddam biner gate to two or three percent of its capacity?
It also has an "accelerator" option, which will pull on your speedbar a little. When I have towed DHV 1 wings I found the accelerator made the gliders much easier to fly on tow. A DHV 2 wing needs it much less...
Kinda like a Moyes Xtralite hardly ever needs a keel attachment to keep the nose trimmed down.
...though some people still swear by it and there doesn't seem to be a downside.
Ever consider a possible downside of NOT having it?
The only problem I've had was switching back and forth between accelerated and unaccelerated. The wing comes up differently and the tow starts a little differently in the two configurations and I blew one launch expecting it to be like the last one.
With a fixed winch or a loop winch, some people do "step" towing. You get pulled up across the field, then without disconnecting you turn and fly back downwind while the operator freely pays out the line, then you turn back upwind and get towed up again going upwind. One risk is if something jams the line while you're flying downwind, you could find yourself in a strong downplane without a lot of room above the ground.
That's why you don't turn downwind until you HAVE a lot of room above the ground.
Seems like it would be prudent to fly downwind with one hand on the tow release, but if it's thermic you might not want to put the brakes in one hand to do that.
Seems like it would be a no brainer for you fuckin' douchebags to develop a release - or just hijack the one the Russians developed for one point hang glider aerotowing - that would allow you to blow tow with both hands on the basetube. But why fuckin' bother? There are no mistakes that a fine pilot such as yourself and/or the experienced winch driver on the other end that will make and is nothing that Mother Nature will be able to throw at you that you won't be able to easily deal with using the equipment you have now.
Some very experienced people refuse to do step towing. I have not done it and I think if I can't find a thermal and get away from a one pass tow, I'm ok with not flying that day, but I'd be interested to hear your experiences.
Something a little similar but without similar risks is to wait up high while a vehicle turns around far below you and then tows you back downwind so you can climb some more. For this you are normally already high and the line drops vertically below you, and if something happened, like the rewind motor sticking on, you'd have plenty of time to disconnect as the slack tightened up in the line.
You will have a "weak link" between your bridal and the towline...
Why?
...a loop of line that is designed to fail at a certain amount of load.
What "certain" amount of load? What happens at this "certain" amount of load that will or won't at some other "certain" amount of load?
Get some advice from an expert about weaklinks...
You're tow rated. How come you feel pretty confident commenting on:
- payout and stationary winches
- turnaround pulleys
- monitoring the canopy
- brake use
- lockouts
- turbulence-induced collapse and recovery
- crosswind technique
- circuit towing
- releasing at altitude
- speed assist bridles
- step towing
- thermal towing
but we need to get advice from an "expert" about weak links?
What is this "expert" gonna be able to communicate to us about weak links that he failed to communicate to you?
If you don't understand as much about weak links as an "expert" are you more likely to get killed as a consequence of a weak link related issue than the "expert"?
If you under expert guidance came through your certification program unable to understand weak link issues well enough to explain them to us then what makes you think that we'll do any better after consultation with an "expert"?
Shouldn't we be able to thoroughly understand weak link issues by studying the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden? That text is a distillation of the best opinions of the top experts on the face of the planet.
Shouldn't there be solid information about weak links in USHGA and BHPA SOPs? Since USHGA has an upper limit for aerotowing weak links about twice as high as BHPA's shouldn't we be easily able to find something that meets our expectations?
Is there a website we can check out on which an "expert" has explained weak links in terms we muppets might be able to understand if we studied them real hard for a couple of months?
Can you give us a reference or two to help us find an "expert" with whom we'd be comfortable?
Would Stewie be considered an "expert"? I would think so but Stewie tells us that...
Most reliable sources believe that a weak link should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the in-flight load.
...most reliable sources believe that a weak link should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the in-flight load so wouldn't it be best to fly a weak link that blows at 87.5 percent of the in-flight load and get Stewie to tell us who one of his reliable sources is in case we wanna delve deeper into the subject so we can become better and safer pilots?
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
...Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey? Think of what we could learn about weak links if only he would condescend to speak to us!
...and if you can, get a couple of meters of weak link line...
Better get more than a couple.
...make your own, and keep extras with you.
On the other hand... On the afternoon of 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec launched with...
...enough 130 pound Greenspot on the starboard end of his pro tow bridle to last him all but a few minutes of the rest of his life.
The one that is on the towline may have dragged a lot on the ground.
So what idiot fucking reason do you have for not incorporating something into a bridle?
You want the weaklink to break in an emergency...
OF COURSE YOU DO! There's just no emergency situation that's not gonna get totally defused by...
NEVER CUT THE POWER
...a piece of fishing line popping.
...but you don't want it to break too easily.
Well yeah, obviously. That could lead to excessive inconvenience.
If you get a strong wind gust just as you take off, and say the operator has the tension a little too high, your wing will rock farther behind you than usual and put more pressure on the weaklink.
Put so much pressure on it as to crush the fibers. And then they could break more easily under more tension. And then you could be inconvenienced.
If the link brakes while you are still in this attitude and very low, you could get a pitch rotation and surge that you can't catch before you hit the ground.
That's why you want an 87.5 G weak link - which is dead center in the middle of the range of what most reliable sources believe. That'll break - sorry brake - before you can get pitched up that far.
Usually an early release or weaklink failure doesn't mean an accident...
And...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...usually an inaccessible release or skipped hook-in check doesn't mean a fatality.
...but with other contributing circumstances a frayed weak link that is now too weak could cause an accident...
So as long is it's not frayed, regardless of the selected G rating of a virgin loop of fishing line, it's physically incapable of causing an accident.
...so it is worth taking responsibility for your weak link the way you do for the rest of your gear.
- "We" who, motherfucker? You're not taking any responsibility for any of your towing gear - you're just using whatever junk some total fucking asshole like Stewie has handed you and regurgitating the moronic crap you've been fed.
- Wanna say anything about Gs? Or even what you've been flying in terms of pounds? Just kidding.
When towing in thermic conditions, you will tow through thermals.
When else is it a good time to tow?
It is usually better to release in a good thermal...
But...
...not always. Sometimes that's about the last thing you wanna do. But, of course, that option will be at the sole discretion of your fishing line.
...than to tow another quarter mile for slightly more altitude. I learned this lesson on my third tow, in the Utah desert, when I towed on through a strong thermal, rocking around like crazy with the vario screaming. When I released a little later I flew back downwind looking for the thermal and found only 1000 fpm (5m/s) down, all the way to the deck. I had to land and get towed again. That time I went into another strong thermal and released, and was going up at 1200 fpm (6 m/s).
Be aware that when you're on tow a gust of stronger wind will feel like lift. You will suddenly climb faster because the line is pulling you and your airspeed just went up. Even experienced pilots get fooled and release, only to find no lift.
That's about it from me
It's brain dead easy to engineer inexpensive hang glider one and two point aerotow releases that allow the pilot to blow tow with both hands on the basetube. Yet, outside of eastern Europe there are hardly any in circulation.
It would be even easier to do the same for paraglider towing and yet there's absolutely nothing in circulation.
The culture won't tolerate releases that don't stink on ice because for over three decades all the people in power and control have been pushing fishing line as the only sure fire emergency tow release and if participants started experiencing the feeling and results of towing with bulletproof releases and heavy weak links the reputations of THOUSANDS of assholes would go down the toilet.
I was kinda comparing it to the scenario of using weak links in aerotowing...
