Jonathan Slater - 2005/06/22 08:25:52 UTC
Cambridgeshire, England
I've only ever been towed up behind a vehicle, so I don't know if this applies generally to all forms of towing, but my instructors (very experienced people) are very much against releasing the tow line while under tension. Even with no tension the release should only take a brief tug, and there is no chance of upsetting the stability of the wing or of getting struck by a high speed release.
What do your very experienced instructors have to say about the chance of upsetting the stability of the wing or of getting struck by a high speed release when the weak link kicks in and the tension instantly goes from max permissible to zero?
Jim Reich - 2005/06/22 15:00:00 UTC
Woodside Mountain, British Columbia
Try to be there on 2012/04/28 when Jon Orders skips one hook-in check too many and becomes a significant part of the history of hang gliding.
vehicle towing - fixed line! DON'T DO IT!
I have experience behind ATVs using fixed tow lines and even experts can run into problems.
Experts can and do get killed in every flavor of hang and para glider towing.
Payout or pay-in systems offer the ability to release tension rapidly when the pilot "f*ucks up" either by using too much brake or not staying on the tow line.
- Meaning, obviously, that the PILOT on ALL forms of paraglider towing DOESN'T have the ability to release tension rapidly when any kind of shit hits the fan.
- I thought...
James Bradley - 2005/06/21 22:15:17 UTC
You want the weaklink to break in an emergency...
...we had a weak link we wanted to break in an emergency.
-- Are you implying that the weak link doesn't always do what we want it to?
-- Have you consulted an "expert" to get a recommendation for a weak link that DOES do what we want it to in an emergency?
- Just how good an idea is it to release tension rapidly when the pilot "f*ucks up" by using too much brake?
We have successfully towed indoors at the BC Place Stadium in Vancouver during halftime shows at a football game several times using a fast Polaris ATV but I felt out of control most of the time because we had to be off the ground in zero wind and at altitude within 100 yards!
During testing I locked out heading for the bleachers and managed to correct my flight at the last minute.
- If you managed to correct your flight it wasn't a lockout.
- How come your:
-- weak link didn't break in that emergency?
-- driver didn't use his the ability to release tension rapidly when you "f*ucked up" by not staying on the tow line?
We used a Sky Fides L for the tows, easy launch and less likely to surge under high tension releases.
So you'd be more likely to survive your:
- weak link break in - or creating - an emergency
- driver using his the ability to release tension rapidly if you "f*ucked up" by using too much brake
Pat Chewning - 2005/06/22 15:15:44 UTC
Portland, Oregon
Reduce tension, then release from tow
I prefer to reduce the tension in the tow line and then release from tow.
You mean like:
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
Placing a foot at the "Y" junction of the split tow harness (towmeup type) helps to release when there is no tension.
I once released under very high tension and the ends of the tow bridle smacked me in the face. So I really want the tension off when I release.
So...
- You're not a huge fan of weak links increasing the safety of the towing operation?
- Have you considered using a bridle made out of low stretch material instead of that nylon crap Stewie sells?
Another benefit: You don't get as much pendulum motion if you are momentarily flying without tension and then release.
How much pendulum motion do you get if you are momentarily flying with MAX tension and then release - or get released/dumped?
Paul van den Berg - 2005/06/22 15:52:59 UTC
Foot of the eastern Jura, Switzerland
Step towing
I have done some seventy tows in the beginning of my flying career (when I lived in the flatlands). It can be a bit spooky, but then again, it is a comfortable and fast way to get up (the ride up to some mountain sites is much spookier und definitely much less comfortable!
Yeah. All the tow bashers like to pretend that that part of the operation doesn't exist and they're flying just like birds.
...If only the flats produced the same thermals...)
The flats produce good enough thermals for world record XC flights.
I have witnessed one case of a line jam on a step tow (pilot flying away and winch paying out). After the pilot almost made a somersault in the harness (frightening), the weak link gave...
...because, obviously, the "pilot" had no ability to release himself...
...and the glider continued with just a little surge. If you step tow, have a good weak link...
What's a "GOOD" weak link? Define that in Gs.
What's a "GOOD" weak link when you're at fifty feet and standing on you tail because of a gust, thermal, tension surge?
Lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker...
- The purpose of the weak link is to...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...protect your aircraft against overloading - not to blow the glider off when the winch locks up.
- A weak link MAY or MAY NOT blow when a winch locks up - and there is no G rating you can specify for it to reliably do that job.
- If the winch locks up there's supposed to be a PILOT to use his RELEASE to RELEASE.
...and the winch man should be able to cut the line immediately.
- Why? Don't you have a good weak link that you want to break in an emergency?
- Right. The guy on the ground a couple thousand feet away - who's in no danger of getting so much as scratched - is supposed to be able to abort the tow more quickly and effectively than the asshole along for the ride on the glider.
- Not even a hint of a mention of the glider releasing.
The last time I towed was more than seven years ago so some info might be outdated.
No - unfortunately. It's now been well over fifteen years since the last time you towed and absolutely none of this bullshit is outdated.
Michael Dufty - 2005/06/23 04:33:45 UTC
Western Australia
The tricky thing is that it is an unstable system, as soon as you get a little bit out of line, the tow forces will pull you more out of line, so constant attention and corrections are needed to keep straight.
Goddam right.
It's not difficult, and with practice you don't even notice you are making corrections, but let your attention wander for a couple of seconds and things get out of line really quickly.
But, otherwise, don't worry. I mean, what could possibly go wrong flying an unstable system in thermal conditions close to the ground with no ability to blow tow while you're trying to make a "correction" as long as you're paying attention?
I believe the tow assist systems reduce this a lot as they add an element of self correction, but I've never tried one.
No they don't. They trim you faster but if the towline is pulling to the right the wing is gonna roll to the left.
While it is preferable to release with reduced tension, I've never found releasing under tension to be a drama, the surge is a lot less than you encounter in everyday thermalling.
Of course it is - 'cause YOU'VE never found releasing under tension to be a drama.
I use a foot release so don't get whacked in the face.
Try using a Dacron bridle.
I did get caught out once when the mild surge from releasing coincided with a big one from falling out of the thermal. Quickest turn downwind I've ever done, but could have done without the flying straight down part.
Well, at least you weren't still on tow. If you had been you'd have undoubtedly locked out and died instead of being subjected to the mere inconvenience of the quickest downwind turn you've ever done and flying straight down for a bit.
Roger Wolff - 2005/06/23 07:41:11 UTC
the Netherlands
I find looking at the cable way more effective in finding out whether I'm going straight. I'm also reasonably successful in getting students to tow properly by teaching them this.
I am mostly alone in thinking...
You can follow that with just about anything on a glider forum and be right.
...(but convinced I'm right) that you cannot stall a wing by applying too much towforce.
You're right.
Because of the stall risk, we don't like people braking below fifty meters.
Because of the stall risk, how do you feel about people breaking good weak links below fifty meters?
Here in Holland we have tow-releases that will automatically unlock when the towforce becomes abnormally high, or not straight. I dislike them.
Really? Peter Birren loves them 'cause they take the pilot out of the equation. And in 1990 Brad Anderson and Eric Aasletten demonstrated just how well they take the pilot out of the equation.
Like any safety system in towing (like a weak link) when it releases at the wrong point in time, you're screwed.
Sorry, I don't see the logic in trying to save a couple bucks on equipment that I am litterally entrusting my life to. "Pacifier"? may be... but there's an old saying out there... "You never need the backup, until you need the backup".
I know of at least one pilot out there that flies with two caribiners. His logic makes more sense to me... you can't have too many backups.
You just can't have too many strings making decisions to dump you off tow just in case you're an adherent of this crappy argument that it's safer to be on tow than to be inconvenienced.
The problem is that we live in a wet (low!) country. Large areas are not meadows because the Dutch dug canals every sixty meters or so. So the fields are often nine hundred by sixty meters. This means that we have a problem with crosswind. With the proper technique it is still quite possible to launch and fly safely. However, the winch will be pulling at you at 45 degrees at one point in time. Those "safe" release systems will then unhook you when you're two or three meters above the ground flying crooked. Auch.
Idiots who deliberately advise configurations which auto release at high pitch attitudes to protect against lockouts - like Peter Birren - should be shot two or three times to make sure.
I once accidentally released under high tension (I was the passenger on a tandem ride). I still have the mark on my leg to prove it.
Don't use nylon.
I've had a cable break at one meter from my tow-release. That smacked me in my face. I lost the glass in my glasses on that one.
Don't use nylon.
I've had a cable break at five meters from my tow-release. It smacked my passenger in the helmet.
Don't use nylon.
Lessons: Use a helmet with a chin protector, wear sturdy glasses if you can, keep your head outside the area where the cable would go if it would break. I now sometimes place my feet on the cable to make the cable hit my shoes if it should break at that point in time. (I do this especially when I feel vulnerable because it is aimed straight at my head at that point in the tow.)
Don't use nylon.
And stop using shit that accidentally releases and blows up - 'cause while recoil can take an eye out and otherwise fuck you up the resulting stall can kill you - and your student or passenger.
Crap. I'd already chewed this thread up before a bit over sixteen months ago starting at: http://www.kitestrings.org/post1886.html#p1886
so there will have been a lot of redundancy. Sorry 'bout that. But James Bradley is such a gold mine that I got a bit off balance.
And, what the hell, find a glider discussion that ISN'T oozing with redundancy - and maybe I got a newish idea or thought out of the effort.
I'll review, maybe edit a little, and see if I can find anything that could stand a bit more dissection.
Mads Syndergaard - 2005/06/23 10:36:16 UTC
Denmark
When towing, higher wing loading means higher stall speed - but in my (limited) understanding still at the same angle of incidence, which should translate to the same brake position. So as long as you aren't towing with your hands down around your seat plate (higher if your wing has short brake travel) you SHOULD be OK.
Yes.
Can't work out why one would want to though...
Might not be a matter of choice. Shit happens.
More than ten years ago there was a comp in Sweden where a bunch of hangies were employed to tow the paragliders up for their tasks. I have seen photos of the launches, and they were hectic to say the least. Not once did a wing stall due to the (very) excessive tow forces employed at lift-off - but I do remember seeing an APCO Xtra or Supra where the lines had been pulled almost out of the sail...
That's what the fuckin' weak link is there to prevent. And if you're using a two G weak link and getting damage to the glider then there's something seriously wrong with the glider.
Such a launch is very uncomfortable, but provided you keep on the right track (and have airworthy gear)...
...including a safe weak link...
...it isn't dangerous as such.
We always release under tension, not a problem when you're familiar with the things that may go wrong. I much prefer textile releases to metal ones, for same reason.
Don't use nylon.
Daniel Walker - 2005/06/26 03:14:55 UTC
Ann Arbor
Finally, while I understand that this is controversial, someone needs to explain to me just exactly how a weak-link makes towing paragliders safer for anything other than step towing. One of the most dangerous things I have witnessed is a weaklink break in the first 30 feet of a tow. THE REAL danger on a tow is a lockout, but a properly rated weaklink WILL NOT BREAK IN A LOCK-OUT (otherwise they should be impossible with regulated tow force systems like pay-out winches or hydralic winches, yet they are certainly possible on such systems). If you have a system that regulates pressure, and an operator who is not asleep, what does a weaklink do except increase the chance that a momentary surge in tow force causes an inadvedent release close to the ground, right as you have gotten wacked? I have towed hangliders for well over a decade, and EVERY SINGLE CLOSE CALL I HAVE EVER HAD WAS FROM A WEAKLINK BREAK. I have NEVER seen a weaklink "save" anyone from anything. When aerotowing, it is a must to protect the tug pilot, but even then I have known tug pilots ( I am one) to release a glider too far out of whack much more often than the weak link does it for them.
Daniel Walker - 43911
- H4 - 1999/07/25 - Tracy Tillman - AT TFL TST CL FSL - TUG PILOT
- P4 - 2005/09/01 - Kenneth Munn - FL ST TFL TST CL FSL RLF RS TUR XC
Mark "Forger" Stucky - 2005/06/26 04:11:50 UTC
Palmdale, California
A weak link is there to help you for the very rare mechanical failure such as the tow rope geting tangled on the drum or something "downstream" of the disk brake, the tow pressure somehow getting cranked too high, disk brake locking up, etc.
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.
Depending on the winch, a weak link may save your ass at extreme lateral rope angles where there is a lot of tension but it isn't parallel to the winch drum so the brake isn't releasing (I know, a good operator should dump it before it gets that far).
A weak link is just another layer of protection, it should not be a hazard.
Yeah. I SHOULDN'T be a hazard and...
James Bradley - 2005/06/21 22:15:17 UTC
You want the weaklink to break in an emergency but you don't want it to break too easily.
...we WANT it to break in an emergency but DON'T WANT it to break too easily. Wouldn't we be just as well off removing the weak link and substituting prayer?
If surge from a low altitude weak link break is too severe then you are launching with too much tow pressure. If you really need that much pressure then wait until 200ft agl before you crank it up to the "full" pressure.
My issue with weak-links is that they typically fail at the worst possible moment. I don't tow with a lot of pressure down low, but on tow you are anchored to a system with some inertia (not the same as free flying). It is not that hard to be pitched up relatively steeply by a sharp gust.
Even with a hydraulic winch, the mass of the drum, and the drag of the line lead to a delay in the sytem's relieving of the added tow pressure. This short burst of increased tow pressure doesn't present a danger unless the damned weak-link breaks (which it is very likely to as it has no "delay" to match the lag in the system) and you are low to the ground.
How many times have you had the pads lock-up on your pay-out winch? How often have you seen the line catch on some part of the winch -WHILE IT WAS UNDER TOW. I have towed hangliders a lot more than paragliders, but I have had two low level weaklink breaks on paragliders, and TEN on hangliders, about half of which very pretty exciting (just getting upright in time in the hang glider required fast reflexes). These always happened right as I got wacked by some gust/ thermal, and the sudden, unexpected release of tow pressure didn't make the situation easier to deal with, quite the contrary.
As I stated earlier, in my entire flying career (towing for about 15 years) I have NEVER SEEN A WEAKLINK SAVE ANYONE FROM ANYTHING! I have seen a number of crashes, and the weaklink didn't break till they hit the ground (by which point the tow pressure was off already).
In that same period I PERSONALLY have been endangered a dozen times by sudden, unexpected, total release of tow pressure right as I am being pitched up by a gust/thermal. If you can control your wing, the line is your friend. If it is so bad you can't, release! If you can't release, there is some small chance that the weak link MAY release for you (but not in a "normal" lock-out), but I personally would much rather rely on the winch operator in such a rare occurrence, than the random release of the line provided by a weak link.
For a weak-link to provide the critical measure of safety, you have to have:
- 1) the kind of mechanical failure described, combined with
- 2) poor/ inadequate response from the winch operator, AND
- 3) somehow be unable to release yourself. HAS THIS EVER HAPPENNED IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF TOWING PARAGLIDERS? Would using a release system that included a secondary means of release make such an occurence almost impossible?
I have twice had a "mechanical" failure of the pressure system. Once, static towing a PG with my dad, he simply floored it when " the pressure needle kept bouncing around so I ignored it", and again- static towing- when the line hooked uder a runway light, and the pressure suddenly shot up. I RELEASED.
I had an incompetent tow operator + no observer the first time (STUPID), and my weaklink DIDN'T release as I locked out as I let go of the brakes to reach for the release on my "standard" style "v" bridle (the weak-link was probably a lttle too strong, but with a static line, it simply snapped every time as you pulled up the glider otherwise). The second time, the tow car was just reacting to the problem as I released (but static towing paragliders sucks no matter what).
Again, I'm not talking theory, I'm asking other pilots to recount how often they've been dumped off, low, in a "tight spot" by a weak-link break, vs. the number of times they've PERSONALLY WITNESSED, or have experienced being "SAVED" by a weak-link break. I figure it has to have happenned somewhere, somewhen, but does it remotely compare to the DAILY OCCURRENCE (if you are launching in thermals), of unneccessary, unneeded weak-link breaks that actually add to the danger if they happen close to the ground?
If you are using a decent tow system (not static line) with a competent operator isn't it possible that it is safer to tow without a weak-link? This has certainly been my personal experience and observation. What about other pilots?
Missed your comments on the:
- weak link article by Dr. Trisa Tilletti's in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine
- 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec fatality at Quest
- deletion of all references to AT equipment and standards from the USHGA SOPs on 2013/02/07
Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.
Let me see if I can clear up a few things for ya.
A lot of this I sent to Steve btw...
The "purpose" of a weaklink is not in question. Your semantics are.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
There are many ways in which it accomplishes this.
You're nit picking over what you call the "true purpose"... but all you're griping about is a definition... and an erroneous one at that.
Again, The weak link increases the safety of the tow.
Now, how it does this also provides a telling answer to one of the most hot button topics surrounding weak links... lockouts.
People will rail up and down that weaklinks do not protect against lockouts... which they don't.
But this is a half truth.
The whole truth is that while they don't prevent them, they help.
Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.
This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
So think about it.
How is this accomplished?
Simply put... lock out.
So, in a lock out, the forces can very rapidly get so high as to destroy the glider?
So then, weaklinks do not help in a lock out situation?
You can see what I'm getting at here can't you?
Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.
See, we're not confused.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.
This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.
Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.
While I understand the theoretical benefit of weaklinks for towing a PG, my practical experience is that it actually raises the risk by dropping all line pressure just as you are being pitched up by a gust/thermal (pretty exciting near the ground), and I have never witnessed an occasion where it "helped". What are other pilot's real world experiences with added safety versus added problems with their weaklinks?
As usual, we're not hearing anything about ->| Gs |<- in zillions of references "the" weak link because, as usual, there's no real understanding that the purpose of the weak link is to prevent overload and it's only being conceived of as an emergency release.
And if one is thinking of and trying to use a weak link as an emergency release - which is pure unadulterated Hewett/bullshit - OF COURSE you want it as light as possible. If I'm:
- running downwind on a step tow and the winch jams
- in a low level lockout
- being dragged after a blown launch
I don't give a rat's ass how bulletproof my release is - I want the damned fishing line to have blown two or three seconds ago.
So as soon as you start talking about beefing them up to towards the point at which you're using them as overload protectors the average glider asshole, who, at some level, understands that he can get killed even using a Rooney Link as an emergency release, tunes you right out because all he can see are the ranges of conditions in which he can die widening - more violent pitch response when the winch jams and longer lockout and blown launch drag durations.
The Great Stuart Caruk - who's pure unadulterated emergency release / bullshit - wades into the later stages of this one and sheds his brilliance, all of which he derived from most reliable sources who believe that a weak link should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the in-flight load, on the benighted masses and ends any hope of productive discussion.
My assessment of the motherfucker... He's:
- a big commercial operator
- had some success using light weak links as emergency releases to compensate for some of the pooch screws resulting from his useless releases and shoddy operation
- gotten away with light weak links as emergency releases for a long time without killing anyone - probably because he does all of his serious towing over water
- never in a million years gonna admit that Tad and other overload protectors are right and that what he's been teaching and stating on his website for twenty years is half of what it should be so he's gonna go after Tad.
Most reliable sources believe that a weak link should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the in-flight load.
- What do THE OTHER of these mysterious anonymous "reliable sources" BELIEVE? And what are the bases of these BELIEFS?
- Is 0.75 to 1.00 the middle of the sample of "most reliable sources"?
- Or is there nobody in the 0.00 to 0.75 and 1.00 to 1.50 ranges and are all the reliable sources that you're excluding from your selection running from 1.5 to 2.0 - and, considering people who know what the fuck they're talking about are doing max certified operating weight, a good bit up?
"Most reliable sources" / Smoking freakin' gun. Some RELIABLE SOURCES don't fall into that range, NOBODY is advocating going under 0.75, therefore some RELIABLE SOURCES are over 1.00 - and, undoubtedly CONSIDERABLY over 1.00. Even under idiot BHPA regs really light hang and para gliders can fly at reasonably hefty G ratings. We've got the sleazy lying sonuvabitch.
Matt Christensen - 2013/08/19 03:27:27 UTC
Vienna, Virginia
Now that I have been home for a few days and am just about caught up on things after being gone for ten days, I wanted to give a very brief report on my experience in Texas for the 2013 US Nationals. Since I intend to do an article for the magazine, I am going to keep this short.
First of all, let me start by saying that it is absolutely amazing how the town of Big Spring welcomes us. They have a committee dedicated to preparing for this event and they love us! Davis and his wife Belinda took over the monumental task of running this event and I have to say that they did a phenomenal job! The organization and structure of this competition were second to none.
Texas lived up to all of my expectations and then some. I moshed with some MONSTER thermals and danced with some light lift, flew over countless oil fields and landed in the middle of nowhere. I made some great new friendships and had an absolute blast. After seven days of flying, I was tired, sore, ready for my own bed and looking forward to next year.
I learned a TON in my seven days of flying in Texas. Everyone I met was super friendly and happy to help or share any advice. When we weren't flying, we were talking about flying, getting ready to fly or packing up from flying. We flew everyday, and each day brought unique challenges for me and a new learning opportunity.
We had eight people in the Sport Class, including tug pilot extraordinaire Jon Thompson; one of the nicest guys you will meet. The guy has literally been flying hang gliders for forty years. If you love to fly, are comfortable towing in mid day conditions, are comfortable with your ability to select a safe landing field and execute safe landings (there are great fields everywhere); then I would ask you to consider joining me next year at Big Spring for this awesome week of flying.
When I get a few minutes, I will edit some of the footage and post a video. Until then, here is a shot from my first flight over 10K, on my way to 11K.
(Big Spring State Park - 32°13'55.69" N 101°30'41.26" W - below aft area of his harness, Big Spring McMahon-Wrinkle Airport main runway fore of and parallel to his right upper arm.)
Matt Christensen - 2013/08/19 03:27:27 UTC
Vienna, Virginia
Matt Christensen - 90918 - H3 - 2012/04/01 - Steve Wendt - AT FL PL ST
Since I intend to do an article for the magazine...
USHGA's color glossy brochure for showing everyone in and out of the sports just how great everything is.
I am going to keep this short.
Yeah. Save the unabridged version for the paper stuff. Since they don't do fatality reports any more they'll need something to be able to use to pad the pages.
First of all, let me start by saying that it is absolutely amazing how the town of Big Spring welcomes us.
It doesn't know you guys the way I do.
They have a committee dedicated to preparing for this event and they love us!
I hate your fuckin' guts.
Davis and his wife Belinda took over the monumental task of running this event and I have to say that they did a phenomenal job!
Compared to WHAT? Those slimeballs ALWAYS take over the monumental task of running these events so you really have no fuckin' clue how somebody who knows what he's doing and wants to do things right would handle things.
The organization and structure of this competition were second to none.
Just like the Communist Party in China.
Texas lived up to all of my expectations and then some. I moshed with some MONSTER thermals...
Using the EXACT SAME EQUIPMENT Zack Marzec was using on 2013/02/02 when HE flew into a monster thermal.
...and danced with some light lift, flew over countless oil fields and landed in the middle of nowhere. I made some great new friendships and had an absolute blast. After seven days of flying, I was tired, sore, ready for my own bed and looking forward to next year.
Glad you got to go home.
I learned a TON in my seven days of flying in Texas.
Then maybe you can tell us all what went wrong on Zack final flight on 2013/02/02. Nobody from Quest seems to have the slightest clue - and the rest of us aren't allowed to speculate.
Everyone I met was super friendly...
See how wonderful life is when you just go with the flow?
When we weren't flying, we were talking about flying, getting ready to fly or packing up from flying. We flew everyday, and each day brought unique challenges for me and a new learning opportunity.
What were you using or a weak link and why?
We had eight people in the Sport Class, including tug pilot extraordinaire Jon Thompson; one of the nicest guys you will meet. The guy has literally been flying hang gliders for forty years.
What was HIS take on the Zack Marzec fatality? I don't believe I caught it in any of the discussions.
If you love to fly...
Not with the plane I'm on under the partial control at under three hundred feet of some Quest, Kitty Hawk, Ridgely trained shithead.
...are comfortable towing in mid day conditions...
Anybody who's comfortable flying a pro toad bridle with a bent pin barrel release and a Rooney Link stall and lockout protector in midday conditions...
...is off the scale stupid beyond all description.
...are comfortable with your ability to select a safe landing field and execute safe landings (there are great fields everywhere);
Are there any narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place? I prefer to whipstall my landings in those to make sure I don't lose my edge.
...then I would ask you to consider joining me next year at Big Spring for this awesome week of flying.
No way in hell, dude.
When I get a few minutes, I will edit some of the footage and post a video.
I can hardly wait.
Until then, here is a shot from my first flight over 10K, on my way to 11K.
-- nobody's said anything about being required to use the new orange fishing line that's now an accepted standard at Morningside
-- while none of you total morons would have the least concern about using the bullshit "Wrap and Tie" configuration which is supposed to double your breaking strength to 260 you'd all wet your pants flying "Pre-Tied" 200 which is supposed to - and does - blow at 200
If/When heavier weak links start getting into circulation the pin benders are gonna start having problems. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has made the mistake of admitting on the record that...
As I said before, the guys seeking these straight pins are doing so because they want stronger weaklinks.
...bent pin releases can't handle any load. One of my dream videos would be one recovered from the smoldering wreckage showing a currently deceased pin bender - preferably Davis or Rooney - attempting in vain to pry a Davis Mini Barrel open in a lockout. There'd need to be a video to neutralize the usual "just froze" write-off. A folded pin jammed in the barrel - à la Weghorst - would work pretty nicely as well.
And you're either not using wheels substantial enough to do you much good or at all. But, hell, the meet heads have you going up on a Rooney Link so the safety box is royally checked already. No need to go totally nuts in that department. Besides... If you used functional wheels to substantially reduce the probability of you snapping an arm or neck you'd be at a competitive disadvantage.
The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
So no rules on wheels is, in effect, a rule for no wheels for anybody who really wants to play the game.
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2022/06/11 15:30:00 UTC
We actually have enough pixels in this still to confirm that he's a pin bender.
Entrance fee was $300 and tow fees were $400. There are no hang gliding operations based in Big Spring, so the tugs and the tug pilots need to be brought in for the week. We had four tugs. I believe I had twelve tows, so that is $33 a tow, which I think is very reasonable considering the cost/logistics of bringing in four tugs and pilots. I split a hotel with a buddy, which was around $45/night before the split. We hired a driver that was a local who has several years experience, four of us each paid him $25/day. He was great, helped pack up, brought carts, brought water, ran to the truck to grab miscellaneous items during launch prep, very helpful. We split retrieve gas for the week, which was a little over $100 per person.
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25
Airborne Gulgong Classic
New South Wales
Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).
and:
...what would you estimate to be the REAL cost to a participant...
- entrance fee
- tow fee
- hotel
- driver
- airfare
- vacation time
- tug turnaround
- glider turnaround
- cart retrieval
- glider hookup
- diminished or missed soaring opportunities and comp standings for everyone in line...
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
...of the two and a half cent length of fishing line that constitutes the focal point of your safe towing system deciding to abort a tow for a flyer?
What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!
At an event like this and considering how it affects the efficiency of the operation and damn near everyone involved during prime time I'd guess that...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.
- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.
- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.
- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.
- Always use the protective steel sleeve.
...three hundred bucks a pop would be a very conservative estimate.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
So there's the addition of those two is... you know... actually goes like this. The addition of the two is a vector like that.
So... The angle of attack on tow is angle between the force, the glider, and the wind. All that stuff.
If you take this away that angle goes from there to now there and the... You're stalled. (Raises right forearm up to 72 degree angle.) You're stalled.
STALLED?! Are you SURE?
- I read the entire fourteen page Higher Education article on weak links by Dr. Trisa Tilletti in the 2012/06 issue of Hang Gliding and he didn't say anything about STALLS.
- A stall sounds...
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
...Keen-Intellect Rooney a weak link break can only increase the safety of the towing operation. At the very worst it a manageable situation - a mere inconvenience.
You know... You're plowing through the air.
Nah. You don't stop flying. You just experience a gentle dip...
Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.
Not ENTIRELY like a parachute.
So what you have to do is establish and angle of attack such that when you're going down...
You're going DOWN already? Just a fraction of a second ago you were...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...going up.
So... Immediately...
But don't worry. This is all manageable so you'll be able to manage it.
And it's not a STUFF... It's a good... Put...
Right. Just make sure it's not a stuff. Don't pull it in any more than you need to.
Then you wait...
Any idea how long? Can I do some other stuff while I'm waiting? Check my helmet buckle? Adjust my VG? Flip up my instrument pod? Radio for a fresh Rooney Link?
...gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and...
But if we're flying properly and using a standard aerotow weak link we're always gonna have enough altitude to gain enough speed to be able to pull of a nice crisp no stepper, right Mitch?
But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.
It's not like there's any possibility that we'll be compromised so much that we'll have to settle for anything as tacky as a...
So there's the addition of those two is... you know... actually goes like this. The addition of the two is a vector like that.
So... The angle of attack on tow is angle between the force, the glider, and the wind. All that stuff.
If you take this away that angle goes from there to now there and the... You're stalled. You're stalled.
You know... You're plowing through the air.
And no longer can you...
So you immediately... When you lose this coforce you have to adjust the angle of attack, gain speed down...
'Cause you have plenty of speed this way, right? 'Cause you're actually going up.
So what you have to do is establish and angle of attack such that when you're going down...
So... Immediately...
And it's not a STUFF... It's a good... Put...
Then you wait, gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and...
But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.
Hey Mitch, ol' USHGA Hang Gliding Accident Reporting Committee Chairman and Committee...
When we're going up in midday thermal conditions and our Bailey/Quest standard aerotow weak link vaporizes when we're straight and level behind the Dragonfly on takeoff and instantly sends our thrust vector to zero and stalls us we:
- immediately pull the bar back to waist position to adjust our angle of attack
- wait a little while
- gain some speed
- recover from the stall
- push out crisply to land on our feet
So how come when we go through training to ensure that we can execute this properly...
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/02/07
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-D. Aerotow
05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...we've gotta make sure the air is smooth and go up to a grand or two? Can't we safely practice this drill with our tandem instructors in trashy air and propwash at twenty feet or so?
If we practiced weak link drills just off the deck think of all the time and gas we could save! For the price of one simulation at altitude we could do four or five on takeoff and get a lot better feel for standard aerotow weak link breaks at the kinds of altitudes at and in the kinds of conditions in which the overwhelming majority of them actually occur.
How 'bout running that by Paul and Lauren and getting their takes on this proposal?
