Ken spends every waking minute either flying or working on spacecraft communications research at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. He has been hang gliding since 2000, served as SHGA president in 2005 and 2006, and is the current webmaster.
Kenneth Andrews - 76491 - H4 - 2004/09/26 - Joseph Szalai - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - OBS
Joseph Szalai - 43096 - H4 - 1987/12/06 - Ted Boyse - ADV INST, TAND INST, TUG PILOT
Ted Boyse - 36051 - H4 - 1984/03/17 - Joe Greblo - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Joe Greblo - 15408 - H5 - 1978/10/19 - J. Lake - AT FL TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, EXAM, INST ADMIN, TAND INST
Tandem Instructor Zack Marzec gets killed on a routine aerotow launch at Quest on 2012/02/02 by a horrendous stall obviously caused by his one point bridle and Rooney Link. Incredibly easy and cheap fix.
Many hundreds of posts, many thousands of hits for a good many weeks afterwards in discussions in which The Good Guys win all the battles but the Industry sleazeballs remain in control - only mildly diminished.
Before we can finish cutting Davis and his Little Pet to ribbons he locks down the threads and they get pushed back to Page 16 obscurity by thousands of posts in hundreds of inane topics.
Three months later Tandem Instructor Ben Dunn gets - for the purpose of the exercise - killed on a routine aerotow launch at Luling by a horrendous post lockout stall obviously caused by his one point bridle and inaccessible release. Incredibly easy and cheap fix.
But because he lucks out with altitude and is able to pull out with a few feet to spare the reaction to the incident is damn near nonexistent and most of what very little exists is totally moronic: sprog zippers, VG settings, and full face helmets.
Stunt landings, on the other hand, which:
- serve virtually no useful purpose
- are the leading causes of crashes and injuries and one of the leading causes of deaths in the sport
- are virtually never a fraction as safe as wheel landings
- can never be "mastered" well enough to get to the break even point
are PERPETUALLY center stage.
Davis, who, by the way, is himself something of a wheel landing advocate, has as a sticky - perpetually at the top of Page 1 - currently has 187 posts and 29602 hits.
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
The stunt landing is The Industry's primary tool for distracting its victims away from looking at - and applying the easy fixes to - the sport's REAL problems.
Definitely too much speed and likely way too much tension transmitted to the control frame. But, you (sort of) fixed it, kept your eyes on the prize (well done!), and pulled off a nice landing!
Great!
You might try a more semi prone position- knees bent but feet still in the boot- while maneuvering up until the final leg, but LOOSEN UP/RELAX and don't fly so fast during the approach .
btw wheels can really boost your confidence on the bumpy days-
No! Don't, under any circumstances, even THINK of using wheels. You won't take your landings as seriously and thus you'll never perfect your flare timing.
they allow a last chance option to crashing...
But, of course, don't EVER consider coming in on wheels DELIBERATELY. You'd never survive the endless Sylmar discussions about the size and/or number of your testicles.
...and that field looked real friendly for wheel landings.
Yeah. Find me a video of someone coming into a field that DOESN'T look real friendly for wheel landings...
...and carrying his glider away afterwards.
Red Howard - 2013/08/28 01:44:25 UTC
Henderthing,
I agree with what has been said, but you really want to add one more skill to your bag of tricks. Just when you were almost under control again, less than ten feet high, you climbed up the control bar, to get upright to land.
---- Good idea, getting upright...
Why?
...but a rotten execution.
The amount of force that you put on the control bar then could have started a whole new set of PIOs, and it was only luck that these forces cancelled each other enough to get on the ground in one piece. If just one of your grabs had missed or slipped, things would have become really ugly. Luck and PIOs are a very risky affair.
You need to practice getting fully upright (while hanging in the shop, or a few thousand feet high), without touching anything with your hands. You may need to adjust your harness, if this is not possible now. Climbing the uprights like that is going to cost you one day, on an advanced wing.
So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
See my web page, linked below, for the harness adjustments that you may need. When you have mastered this skill, then you won't be oscillating all over the sky when getting upright.
I am upright because I am trying to lose altitude/add drag.
And you need to do that to get into a wide open primary?
Andy Long - 2013/08/28 12:31:08 UTC
I see so many pilots in the Falcon type glider category using speed (drag) to control their glide slope and get very nervous for them when I picture them trying the same thing on their first double surface glider flights.
So why are their instructors letting them get away with, encouraging, teaching that bullshit?
So, the thing to do is practice your approaches while keeping your speed lower and very constant.
Why does it hafta be very constant?
And you achieve your desired round out point in the LZ by where you fly, not by how much speed you pull on to create drag. And if you find yourself a bit high at any point, you have to plan where you can fly a bit more over here or a bit more over there to compensate.
Yes.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/08/28 13:32:12 UTC
Hitting the ground while on the base tube may result in a quick death. If hands are on the uprights at least we can grab one and protect our head.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...SHIT.
Brad Barkley - 2013/08/28 17:11:50 UTC
You also need to move the spreader bar on your hang strap to up under the keel. You aren't supposed to let it sit low on the strap, as shown in the screen grab. Moving it up will give you more control.
You also need to move the spreader bar on your hang strap to up under the keel. You aren't supposed to let it sit low on the strap, as shown in the screen grab. Moving it up will give you more control.
But of course if he'd had more control in that particular instance he'd have probably killed himself.
First landing was 12:30 PM in the Big T Wash after suddenly getting flushed off of the base of Big-T. The air went dead in the wash and I drifted over the shallow gully that separates the two graded strips where we land. Once I was stuck traveling down the shallow gully (screwed) the primary thing was to keep my wings level so I could flare hard and try to stop the glider without having to take any steps. I used my drag chute to prevent a possible overshoot into the big tree at the end of the gully.
There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.
Bring twenty Hang Fours into that bailout in those conditions and what results do you expect to have?
By contrast, the second landing was in the LZ at 5:20 PM and wouldn't you know it but the surface air also was dead calm and I was in jeopardy of overshooting and my wings were not level. I moon-walked (ran) this landing while controlling the glider's bank by applying sideways foot pressure during the run. At the end I simply let the glider flare itself as I stopped.
Although neither landing was even remotely perfect, they both were relatively safe and used radically different techniques for the conditions during each event. I hope aspiring XC pilots find this useful. Not my best editing but it illustrates what can happen and how one pilot dealt with it.
Hey Jonathan...
Wow. That was very hairy. Thank God for Greblo's patented moonwalk technique.
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
Why was it necessary to stop that one on your feet?
Paul Edwards - 2013/09/06 17:29:13 UTC
Great example of when AND how to do a moonwalk. I need to spend some time learning that style. I've never tried it.
Good luck.
AndRand - 2013/09/06 17:37:48 UTC
Poland
Cocoon looks bit creepy for moonwalk.
NMERider - 2013/09/06 17:50:58 UTC
Thanks Paul. The moonwalk is my secondary landing technique because I often land on minefields and bear traps so to speak. In gusty winds the moonwalk is essential for me.
I have been meaning to make some videos on the technique. It's useful as well on days when our coordination is poor and a full flare is not a good idea. Essentially you just need to come into ground effect with good speed and hands already low on the downtubes or one downtube and one basebar and with your body upright. Start taking light steps before even reaching trim speed. You can use your feet to help keep the wings level rather than weight shifting. You can also apply back pressure with each step and slow the glider faster to avoid hitting an object.
It's tricky to do with a cocoon harness and I have learn the hard way (having tripped on the boot) to keep the glider high and away from me until it comes to a full stop.
I timed my flight to take advantage of the nice evening air for my landing. But even in the calm air, I manage to whack with a classic take it back flare. If you witness this unholy event, please watch a lot of good landings to purge it from your mind.
Yes. EXTREMELY brave. Posting a video of a blown standup landing and risking a lifetime of personal attacks, marginalization, ostracism by the fine upstanding people of the hang gliding community.
And yeah, once you flare ya gotta hold it. That little piece of wisdom revolutionized my landings. Coincidentally it was given to me by a Hat Creek pioneer, Phil "Big Bird" Sergeant.
I wonder if sailplaning has gurus of that caliber telling people how to land.
michael170 - 2013/09/07 04:34:13 UTC
Is that LZ smooth enough for a wheel landing?
Is there any primary LZ that ISN'T smooth enough for a wheel landing?
Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC
Crestline
Wheel landings are for girls!
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Michael Bilyk - 89463 - H4 - 2012/01/15 - Rob McKenzie - AT FL ST TFL 360 AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - TAND INST
Fuck you, Rob.
Brian Scharp - 2013/09/07 17:19:19 UTC
Is that LZ smooth enough for a wheel landing?
Maybe, but take care to avoid the new crater.
Precisely.
michael170 - 2013/09/07 20:24:54 UTC
I did not know that "wheel landings are for girls!". That gold nugget of information wasn't on any of the written tests, I don't see it on USHPA's web site, it's not in any of my owners manuals or even in Jim Rooney's magnificent magnum opus on the OZ report forum!
It's phenomenal what one can learn here! Thanks for the education, Mike!
It's time now for pilots everywhere to come together, unite, form a coalition if need be in order to get this information in the magazines, on local club web sites, club forums, USHPA's web site, HGFA's web site, BHPA's web site, owners manuals, and on the tests!
I think, for all practical purposes, we're pretty well covered on all of those fronts.
But let's not stop there! An international ad campaign must be launched with television and radio advertisements! And let us not forget bumper stickers and T-shirts as useful tools to get the message out!
WHEEL LANDINGS ARE FOR GIRLS! - (With the exclamation mark)
Well as it turns out "wheel landings are for girls!". And you're not a "girl" are ya Brian?
Flyking - 2013/09/07 20:57:19 UTC
Ogden
Did the same thing on my T2 a week ago but those topless gliders are not as forgiving If you call that a whack then mine was a power whack. Thank God for helmets
And also note that the largest cause of death from impact in hang gliding is head/neck/chest injuries. You don't die when you hit your legs and/or hips...
Yet another reason to have feet down and moving (or ready to move.)
Why would anyone need a helmet when he's coming in with his feet down and moving (or ready to move)?
Brian Scharp - 2013/09/07 21:14:38 UTC
I think wheel landings are for anyone who wants to do them...
With, of course, the approval of his instructor.
...and I don't mock people for choosing to do so.
Might as well. I mock the crap out of people crashing in putting greens like the Hat Creek primary solely because they're trying to stop it on their feet.
I'm an old man and if I choose to do wheel landings my not being a girl won't stop me. Landing on my feet is rewarding to me.
So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
...sure better be.
It's mostly about technique and not brawn. I used to do it fairly well, and I'm not ready to give it up yet.
Right...
Brian Scharp - 36128 - H4 - 1983/11/29 - Jeff James - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Give it another thirty-five years. I have every confidence that you'll get it eventually.
Bill Taylor - 2013/09/07 22:31:29 UTC
Willows, California
Hat Creek LZ 2
It is always exciting landing at Hat Creek. Even when you don't take back your flair. Makes for a great spectator sport.
Yeah, keep 'em coming, dude. I never tire of the videos and x-rays.
I can't remember how many times Page would say there was wind in the trees but none on the ground, come in fast!
gluesniffer - 2013/09/07 23:12:23 UTC
Who teaches wheel landings in California?
Who teaches - or even allows - wheel landings ANYWHERE?
Fine on the training hill but one shouldn't leave the hill until landing on feet is learned.
So what you're saying is that Brian - who scored his Four a bit shy of thirty years ago - has no business leaving the hill?
Mountain pilots don't land on wheels, that's crazy talk.
1. Chris Starbuck.
2. You are totally full of shit.
Far more dangerous to land on wheels on anything but flight park grass. Cray cray.
I repeat: You are totally full of shit.
- It is virtually ALWAYS fifty times safer and easier to belly in than to foot land.
- And, furthermore, it is virtually ALWAYS a hundred times easier to find a brain dead easy strip of flight park quality grass than it is a thermal to take you out of range of the flight park grass.
P.S. Kinda interesting the way people tend to obsess about the surface used for getting the glider INTO the air...
...but pretend that they have or can develop the skills and technique for getting it out of the air where the hell ever.
michael170 - 2013/09/08 01:05:13 UTC
Well this is just not working out well at all for Doug Prather! He's a "mountain pilot" and to the best of my knowledge not a girl!
However there is some ambiguity in Mike's statement! Note that Mike didn't write (for all the world to read) that wheel landings are only for girls! So perhaps there's still hope for Dougie!
I do hope someone has warned him of the terrible dangers he's facing each time he lands on those wheels!
And Carm... Really admire the way you and your Jack Show chick buddies are sticking up for your gender on this one.
Hey Michael, I see you're from norcal, and you haven't flown two of the most fun ridges that nor cal has to offer. Hat and funston.
How do you know?
You should try both they are nice. Unless you're strictly for the boomers, which I fukn respect. Do you roll in your landings? How many people do you see intend roll ins.
How many people do you see:
- doing hook-in checks?
- towing with the ability to abort in an emergency?
- aerotowing with:
-- something heavier than 130 pound test fishing line?
-- straight pin barrel releases?
- fucking up wheel landings?
- landing in situations in which a standup landing is safer than a wheel landing?
At what sites? I ask because I have never seen anyone intend a roll in at any site I have flown out hur.
Your point being?
I wonder if anyone at the hull flyin today will intend a roll in?
I wonder if anyone at the Hull fly-in today will trash a downtube solely because he elected to do a standup landing?
I doubt it.
I totally agree with your assessment. So, again, what's your point? That if everyone does something a certain way it must be right?
Judging from the videos that Mr scharp has posted, there is no reason why he needs to roll it in.
How 'bout the last video he posted?
Does Mr Prather roll in at bumpy mountain sites...
Does Mr. Prather have a choice?
...and teach his students to do the same?
Who gives a rat's ass?
I respectfully disagree with his method if this is the case.
Who gives a rat's ass?
I love launching and landing on my feet.
Zack Marzec loved pro towing with a 130 pound test pitch and lockout protector.
I would suggest that no pilot leave the training hill until they love it too.
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
And I would suggest that as a sole consequence of totally unnecessary standup landings:
- before this weekend is through there will be:
-- countless whacks
-- a lot of downtubes trashed
- within the next few:
-- weeks someone will be significantly injured
-- months someone will break an arm or dislocate a shoulder
Roll on Michael
And keep expecting people to be able to...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...master the standup landing to the point that it becomes a POSITIVE aspect of the sport.
This is my write-up of my hangliding accident on 5/9/2010 at Quest Air in Groveland, FL during an attempted foot landing which resulted in shattered arms, bilateral humerus fractures, and radial nerve trauma. I could not write this up before now as I am just getting enough motor control in my right hand to type very slowly...
IIRC Doug aka Rotor has no choice but to wheel land.
You do. And that that would make Doug...
gluesniffer - 2013/09/07 23:12:23 UTC
Who teaches wheel landings in California? Fine on the training hill but one shouldn't leave the hill until landing on feet is learned. Mountain pilots don't land on wheels, that's crazy talk. Far more dangerous to land on wheels on anything but flight park grass. Cray cray.
...totally wacko for ever thinking about flying out of range of a primary.
Point is.
You need your head examining. Why would you relate this?
Obviously not because there's any hope of getting people to question the way they're doing things. If this were a halfway sane culture nobody would be towing at anything under a five hundred pound capacity post Marzec. But it will be fun to say toldyaso in another month or so when the next guy snaps an arm on a putting green while practicing his narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place technique.
Very messed up guy.
In a terminally messed up sport why does that bother you?
I think wheel landings are for anyone who wants to do them, and I don't mock people for choosing to do so. I'm an old man and if I choose to do wheel landings my not being a girl won't stop me. Landing on my feet is rewarding to me. It's mostly about technique and not brawn.
IMHO if someone thinks you need guts to flare it means he is doing it wrong - guessing flare time or loosing speed steeply. Then it results with whack (too soon) or ground loop (too late, stalled).
I can say it because I never whacked or ground looped (with no-steppers and run-ins, should learn moonwalks) and want to stay it that way
With wheel-ins it is bleeding speed off leveled with flare on touchdown so glider has no energy to pick nose down. Therefore I see it as safest landing and cant really see what possibly can go wrong.
Watch the videos, do the math.
I would not recommend it only on the rocks or hard gravel.
Don't land in any environment where bellying in - either deliberately or as a consequence of a blown standup landing - is likely to result in unpleasant consequences.
I learnt not to withdraw from flare hard way - posted one of my landings from beginner course on Condor-like rogallo where you can easily move back-forth bar on flare to steer parachuting glider... and the hell arose on forum...
1. That's not the only way to fuck up a standup landing and bend something and/or get hurt.
2. And the fact that a few individuals can never blow a standup landing over the course of an entire hang gliding career doesn't impress me any more than the fact that many individuals can get through entire careers without serious consequences:
- skipping:
-- preflight sidewire load tests
-- hook-in checks
- flying:
-- Quallaby and bent pin releases
-- pro toad bridles
-- Rooney Links
Standup landings are extremely demanding and dangerous and necessary only when people are pushing their luck.
If you call that a whack then mine was a power whack. Thank God for helmets 
