landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Brad Barkley - 2013/09/09 12:18:18 UTC
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 21:13:37 UTC

Point is.
You need your head examining. Why would you relate this?
Very messed up guy.
and once again, just a tad bit suspicious....
Yeah Brad, somebody making the same kinda points Tad does. Probably Tad. Better ban him just to stay on the safe side. You stupid pigfuckers sure don't wanna have your discussions contaminated by individuals with perspectives outside of the mainstream. That's one can of worms you definitely don't want opened.

(Anybody got any comments on THE SUBSTANCE of what he's saying? Just kidding.)

P.S. Your shift key's down.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Andrew Vernon - 2013/09/09 16:23:30 UTC
Bay Area

Three years later, how is Shannon doing?
Crappy. She did serious and permanent damage to her arms.
Back in the air?
Yeah - on sailplanes - but never again on hang gliders. For the latter you need two arms in pretty good shape.

Start looking at the real costs of these damned landings to a lot of the less than perfect people who get involved in this sport and ask yourself just how much good they're doing and whether or not it's worth it on the balance.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
michael170 - 2013/09/09 22:37:05 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Paul Edwards - 2012/10/19 12:53:11 UTC

The crew, and for that matter every pilot standing around that has a pair of eyes should be on the lookout for red flags. We owe it to each other to speak up. If we adopt this attitude the whole affair becomes safer for everyone.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack
Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!
Seeing any red flags, Paul?
Not with his degree of color-blindness.
2013/09/10 00:13:25 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Edwards
Paul Edwards - 2013/09/10 00:15:36 UTC

You're hilarious my friend. Image
Keep up the great work, Paul...

Image

You'll get along just fine with the Jack Show crowd.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
This is the asshole who:
- rearranged your face
- pronounced Jim Rooney the ultimate authority on aerotowing
- had no comment whatsoever on a tandem aerotow instructor getting fatally splattered at his flight park
- is USHGA's Accident Review Committee Chairman

And none of that raises any red flags?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 21:16:09 UTC

Michael 170 seems to think it cool to dredge up accident posts from 3 yrs ago. He is indeed a very sick individual.
1. Ya know who the REALLY very sick individuals are, motherfucker?

Assholes who don't think about a lot of this pathetic bullshit every time they go flying - regardless of whether it was three hours, days, weeks, years, decades ago.

2. And do ya think you've made this point quite enough yet? Here's the entire record of your Jack Show posting history:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 18:32:41 UTC

Possibility Mr Sniffer was unaware of Dougs situation. Michael however should be ashamed of himself. Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 18:35:50 UTC

Michael 170 you are a very sick individual. Go get some help before its too late. Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 20:37:39 UTC

The post is over 3 yrs old.
I repeat.
You are a very sick individual. Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 21:13:37 UTC

Point is.
You need your head examining. Why would you relate this?
Very messed up guy.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack
SkyTribe - 2013/09/08 21:16:09 UTC

Michael 170 seems to think it cool to dredge up accident posts from 3 yrs ago. He is indeed a very sick individual.
...over the course of the two days since you registered.

3. So...
- Who the fuck are you?
- What game do you think you're playing?
- How come all these Jack Show assholes are letting you get away with it?

P.S. 2013/09/10 16:20:10 UTC

Those posts were made over a span of less than two and three quarters hours - 02:43:28 for you really anal types. Something EXTREMELY suspicious is going on here.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4182
Broken ankle
Jim DeLear - 2013/09/16 17:01:39 UTC

My landing resulted in broken ankle bones Sunday, 2013/09/15. The wind was about two mph and the flare was a little early. I have two landings with my new glider, a Litespeed S (my old glider is the CXS), and both times the wind was light and I flared a little early. They both looked ok, but this landing I hit a rut or a gopher hole and twisted my ankle enough to break the bones.
Good thing you weren't rolling it on the wheels headfirst. You'd have probably broken your neck.
I might toss my drogue chute next time when the wind is light.
Yeah. That'll help you get down before you get to the rut or gopher hole.
Thanks to all that helped me, when I am ready to drive I want to give you a ride up the hill.
James DeLear - 37949 - H4 - 1987/05/21 - Luigi Chiarani - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
And keep working on that flare timing. You'll get it down eventually.
Jay Devorak - 2013/09/16 17:01:39 UTC

In my opinion drogue chutes don't change your speed.
So you don't really KNOW. This is just your OPINION.
They only decrease your glide.
In your OPINION?
The less the airspeed the less of an effect they have.
In your OPINION?

In your opinion, what's the leading cause of serious hang gliding injuries...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2211.html#p2211

Image

...in the Greater Grebloville area?
Jay Devorak - 56361 - H4 - Donald Quackenbush - 1994/03/20 - AT PA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Always wondered if that was the same Don Quackenbush from my grade school class in Connecticut in the early Sixties.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4182
Broken ankle
Joe Greblo - 2013/09/17 02:27:05 UTC

But they do reduce the risk of unintentional climbing during the flare.
The flare that we're never supposed to take back.

So who has a worse day? Brian...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=399NZcSUprE


...who, even with nothing in the way of wheels, takes back the flare, or Jim, who doesn't?
Jim's climbing flare was followed by his tail sliding back to earth with a 75 lb. glider above him.
So should we all land with drag chutes to mitigate the danger of an early flare?
Drag chutes also reduce the amount of time spent in ground effect, waiting for the time to flare.
Was he coming in someplace at which he NEEDED to flare? Nobody's bothered to specify where this incident occurred but, seeing as how no one's talking about how things would've probably gone with a wheel landing, I'm guessing it was a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.
And most importantly, they allow landings in significantly smaller fields.
So was this a significantly smaller field? Or was it one of the wide open brain dead easy ones that people actually land in.
The only penalty I have found using drag chutes over the past 35 years is the additional preparation, training, and discipline they require. I wouldn't suggest they be thought of as toys, but as effective tools for those willing to learn how to use them effectively.
What are your thoughts about wheels?
- Is there no possibility that a pair can be an effective landing tool?
- How much additional preparation, training, and discipline they require?

So this early flare / rut / broken ankle landing is worth commenting on but this unhooked launch:

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4127
Failure to hook in
Robert Burgis - 2013/08/22 16:52:39 UTC

Yesterday I launched unhooked from the Kagel launch. I fared much better than the glider did with only a bruised left hand and wrist. I don't think anything is broken but I might get an x-ray if the swelling and bruising gets worse. The glider, although repairable, is trashed with a broken leading edge and keel along with lots of other smaller damage. I consider it "spare parts" for the new one I ordered a few hours after its demise.

My routine is to hook in before going to launch and then check my hook in by turning around and looking at it or asking a wire person to check for me. In this case I didn't do either one; my head was thinking beyond launch, taking it completely for granted.
less than three and a half weeks prior, by a guy who uses the technique you teach, isn't?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29956
most painless way to learn
vxpilot - 2013/09/17 22:32:38 UTC
McKinney, Texas

I'm very new to hang-gliding, have just been out twice in a five year period. Last time was this past Sunday. The landing technique has me a bit confused and that makes me wonder because I have about 2000 landings on very high speed parachutes. My fastest parachute when not in a turn nor pulling the dive loops had a foward speed of 70 mph, such that with my parachute open, I could stay with a guy in a wingsuit... I'm also a licensed pilot with 200+ hours. But in my short time hang-gliding I've broken a couple of down tubes.
Wild guess... Foot landing on a wide open putting green?
As I continue to replay these landings in my head, I keep thinking, if only I could see my feet out in front of me like I do with my parachute landings.
And I keep thinking... If only you'd land this thing like the weight shift controlled sailplane it is - instead of the goddam parachute it's not - and put it down on wheels or skids while focused on the landing instead of worrying about looking at the goddam wheels or skids.
On my parachute, I could be screaming it so fast that I'd very easily get seriously hurt if I touched down at that speed, but by pulling on my toggles just enough to keep my feet six inches off the ground bleed off airspeed, until it's safe drop the next six inches and drag my feet to start transferring weight from my harness to my feet.
You'd be astonished at just how seriously hurt you can very easily get trying to stop a glider on your feet in light air...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA


...at about a groundspeed of about a dozen miles per hour.
If the ground is slippery enough I can usually even slide to a complete stop. But doing this on a hang-glider seems so much more difficult even though I'm coming is so much slower.
Try rolling the fuckin' glider to a complete stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png
Image
Image
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

You can come in like a bat outta hell and the ground don't gotta be slippery.
My biggest issue is the position of my feet and the visual of at what height I need to be leveling off at.
Try to level off a little higher than Mel here:

Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
HGAviator - 2013/08/11
dead
46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png
Image

Hard to go wrong leveling out BEFORE you fly into the ground.
I'm wondering if I could try this with floats and practice swooping water. Could this could be an easier way to learn how to judge that height of where I need to be leveling off and flairing at?
Sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFadjwZgmU

05-4321c
Image
07-4625c
Image
08-4923c
Image
10-5024c
Image
Is that possible...
Yeah. In hang gliding just about anything is possible. Just read the fatality reports. Just seven and a half months ago we had a guy who was able to tumble his glider through two rotations from just 150 feet and maintain a pulse for an extra fifteen or twenty minutes.
...and if so? How much would that cost?
Depends a lot on how fast your rescuers can get to you and how well they're able to keep your face out of the water. If things go well maybe just your ability to foot launch and land.
While on that topic, do hang-gliders ever purposefully swoop water, like a pond, with the intention to lift up and come to a complete stop past the shoreline?
Fer sure. Everything we do in this sport is done with...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704
Image

...the very best of intentions.
Cheers all,
Bruno
Cheers, Good Luck, Enjoy.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Shannon Moon - 2013/09/18 13:35:03 UTC

Thanks for asking. :) It took five surgeries, lots of titanium, and two plus years of physical therapy, but I have made a fairly decent recovery. I am back flying airplanes and sailplanes. I even added on a seaplane rating relatively recently. (Boy was I nervous when I went in for my flight medical!)

However I am sad to say, it is highly unlikely that I will be able to fly hang gliders any time soon (if ever). My left arm and shoulder suffered such severe nerve damage that it took me many months to be able to even twitch a finger on my left hand.

Although my left arm is fairly functional, I still have ongoing weakness and minor nerve issues with my left side which are unlikely to improve further according to my orthopedist. It is not severe enough to stop me driving or flying fixed wings, but would be problematic for a more demanding sport like hang gliding. I've been tempted to head over to Quest a few times to try a tandem flight, but knowing that I would be a "tourist" on the flight rather than a "pilot" is a bit depressing.

It does makes me sad to think I may never get to see the shadow of my hang glider racing across a cloud outlined by a glory ring. However, it could be worse; I was very lucky to survive the crash and recover as well as I have. I am not completely grounded, and for that I feel very grateful.
2013/09/18 13:36:48 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Rowan
Fuck you...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3167
Freak accident at Highland
Jim Rowan - 2008/04/16 12:41:56 UTC

Tad, if you want to land prone on wheels and lead with your head, by all means I would encourage you to do so, but I suggest you make sure all your landings take place on mowed grassy fields or some other surface suitable for rolling in on wheels. I think I would prefer to land upright and take my chances of a broken arm as opposed to a broken face or neck, but hey, that's just me.
...JR.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post2490.html#p2490
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Shannon Moon - 2013/09/18 13:35:03 UTC

Thanks for asking. :)
1. Did you wanna thank michael170 for bumping this disaster of yours in this culture of three day attention spanners?
2. Any comment on:
- all the flak he got from all the Jack Show assholes?
- his suggestion that you shoulda stuck with wheel landings?
It took five surgeries, lots of titanium, and two plus years of physical therapy, but I have made a fairly decent recovery.
Put a dollar figure on the cost of that totally unnecessary standup landing attempt.
I am back flying airplanes and sailplanes. I even added on a seaplane rating relatively recently. (Boy was I nervous when I went in for my flight medical!)
Tell us how much you'd pay to hop in my time machine for a do-over on the wheels.
However I am sad to say, it is highly unlikely that I will be able to fly hang gliders any time soon (if ever). My left arm and shoulder suffered such severe nerve damage that it took me many months to be able to even twitch a finger on my left hand.
Any comment...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
...Jonathan?
Although my left arm is fairly functional, I still have ongoing weakness and minor nerve issues with my left side which are unlikely to improve further according to my orthopedist.
God's will. All part of His plan.
It is not severe enough to stop me driving or flying fixed wings...
A hang glider IS a fixed wing aircraft - at least...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJV_t4L92pE


http://ozreport.com/forum/files/having_a_bad_day_178.jpg
Image

...if it's not too much goddam trouble to do the fuckin' preflight sidewire load test.
...but would be problematic for a more demanding sport like hang gliding. I've been tempted to head over to Quest a few times to try a tandem flight, but knowing that I would be a "tourist" on the flight rather than a "pilot" is a bit depressing.
Look on the bright side...
It does makes me sad to think I may never get to see the shadow of my hang glider racing across a cloud outlined by a glory ring.
This:

Image

happened to another one of Quest's victims. (Drawing on your conventional aviation background... Any thoughts on what the problem was there? We in the sport are at a total loss to understand it.)
However, it could be worse; I was very lucky to survive the crash and recover as well as I have.
It IS worse. You probably set a world record for the ratio of damage done to your body to the available energy you had to work with in the most benign environment imaginable.
I am not completely grounded, and for that I feel very grateful.
Good job. I'd feel as bitter as hell - especially after I figured out just how much I'd been fucked over by the sport in general and my Quest instructors in particular.

Speaking of which... What is it you think the assholes running this game are doing any differently to prevent something like this...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck
Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.

anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.
...from happening to the next student?
---
Edit - 2013/09/20 15:44:00 UTC
This:
You probably set a world record for the ratio of damage done to your body to the available energy you had to work with...
is wrong. Shoulda reread her report before posting.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair
Paul Tjaden - 2010/05/10 23:49:50 UTC

Curious who crip2 is and where he got his info but it is ALL incorrect.
Yeah Paul. And Quest Air has always been such a STICKLER for the accuracy of info circulated...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
...following serious crashes at its facility.
The injured pilot learned how to hang glide and tow at Quest several years ago...
Not very well, did she?
...and at that time had numerous flights on a Falcon 140 before she purchased a Sport 2 which she flew and enjoyed before taking a break from HG for several years for personal reasons. Several weeks ago she came back to Quest where she flew tandem several times with two very experienced instructors before she was allowed to solo again on a Falcon 170 and eventually on her Sport 2 again. Her last several flights were uneventful. I know because I towed her.
In strict accordance with all FAA and USHGA regulations, requirements, guidelines, and recommendations of course.
As Jim...
...Keen-Intellect Rooney...
...has shown, conditions were SFI at around 8-10 from the north and there was no thermal activity and little turbulence. The tow went fine and no one knows why she seemed to pull in hard and dive right before touching down although possible explanations have been brought forward...
Has anybody suggested it was because her instruction and training sucked?
...Channel 9 news showed a tandem flight which occurred a couple hours later and it is obvious that winds were not strong and tandems were NOT parked.
So we should probably be focusing more on shit instruction and training.
One more thing, the injured pilot was also an experienced GA pilot and sailplane pilot.
How very odd that she never seems to have had any incident worth mentioning in all that experience with those toys. Reminds me a lot of carrier and airline pilot John Simon flying into a taxiway sign on a lovely day at Ridgely and breaking both arms after all his superb training from those assholes - who, big surprise, are the same assholes who trained and certified you and Lauren.
She was a very experienced airman.
Only in fields of aviation in which people aren't trained to take their hands off the controls during landing approaches and whipstall their planes to dead stops.
So crpi2...
Try to spell it right, Paul. It's only five characters.
...do you have an axe to grind about Quest?
If he doesn't I sure do - motherfucker.
What's your problem?
Compared to taking an experienced General Aviation pilot and demolishing her in the course of a no brainer approach and landing solely because you encouraged her to land on her feet, he doesn't have any problems.
BTW, Quest management just recently took heat for stopping free flying when we thought it too windy.
I don't think too windy is your problem area down there Paul. I'd be WAY more concerned with soaring conditions.
We don't fly in dangerous conditions.
Yeah? So please explain to me...
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light southwest wind. It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for. Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.
...just how it was that this tandem aerotow instructor:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
Image

...went up on a typical central Florida winter day with sunny skies, moderate temperatures, and a light south west wind and wound up in a terminal heap less than a minute later.

If you really don't know what happened on this one...
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.
...then how the fuck can you know whether or not you fly in dangerous conditions?

It's pretty goddam obvious to me that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC

Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
...that NONE of you motherfuckers is able to identify dangerous conditions. So until you get things sorted out a bit better than you have them now how 'bout easing up on the crap about you not towing in dangerous conditions and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.
...having been involved in perfecting aerotowing for twenty years on the basis of having selected a cheap hardware store keychain carabiner as the ultimate wrap resistant tow ring - right after you've managed to weld your bridle to it...

ImageImageImageImage

...in the most moronic fashion imaginable.
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