landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4225
Mea Culpa! H@ Syndrome strikes!

Cyndia Klein - 2013/10/12 17:37:50 UTC

Mea Culpa! H@ Syndrome strikes!

Try to let the shift key back up after typing the "H" next time.

On Friday September 25th, I broke my left arm up at Big Sur.

No you didn't. You broke it on Friday September 27th.

Fortunately, it was just a comminuted fracture of the left humerus which reduced pretty nicely on its own so I do not need surgery, however I won't be flying for awhile.

Don't worry about it. Nine days after you ate it a topless overshot the Kagel primary and broke HIS humerus as a consequence of trying to do a standup landing - and, of course, not having wheels. (You had wheels, right?)

Prior to going to Big Sur, I asked Joe...

Greblo, I presume.

...if I could fly if the conditions were good ie: no clouds, reasonable winds etc; since I have flown the site before and had up-to-now showed better sense, he agreed.

On Thursday, Richard showed me the secondary LZ which had been freshly mowed and looked like a landable place to me. We discussed the different approaches, where I should be to make sure I would make it safely with enough altitude, where I should stage, where my numbers should be, etc.

Come in fast and just a bit uncomfortably low over the last downwind obstruction. KISS.

Friday morning, Hungary Joe and Caitlin arrived and I went over my plan with him as well, got a different perspective on the site but agreement on my flight plan.

My launch was ok and I got out over the ridge with a lot of altitude and felt very comfortable with my plan. The other pilots all found lift and were above me. Initially I thought to land in the primary LZ and so informed Richard, but I had a lot of altitude and so decided for the secondary. I did not realize that when I mentioned I would just land in the bigger field, Richard relaxed so when I changed my mind it was too late for him to land ahead of me to check conditions.

As I came over the field, I had a lot of altitude and found my numbers.

Fuck your numbers. Buzz the last treetop as you're coming into the field.

The wind was blowing about sixty degrees cross to my runway at, I estimate, six to eight mph.

My problems started when I began my 360s.

Your problems started on your first day of training - with a bunch of assholes who haven't heard about the invention of the wheel yet.

The rotor or gradient really tossed me around and I got scared and thought the best thing to do was get down. If I would have instead turned to downwind and extended that and my base, I would have at least been on the right path with some room. Instead I lost sight of my numbers...

Did you lose sight of what it was you needed to clear?

...and rounded out in the middle of the field instead of twenty feet from the start of the field as we had planned.

Sounds like the obstruction wasn't all that formidable.

Plus instead of heading into the wind I was going almost precisely ninety cross to it. I rounded out...

Read: slowed down.

...high because I was headed for some tall weeds with my plan to flare hard and parachute down into them.

Of course that was your plan. You've been practicing full flare no-steppers every landing of your career for that very moment.

Regretfully that did not happen.

No shit.

Instead of staying loose, I grabbed on tight pushing out without bringing my hands up. When my feet reached the ground, the weeds stopped me and the glider pitching its nose forward and catapulting me through the control frame.

What would've happened if you had just stayed prone with your hands on the basetube?

I immediately radioed Richard that I was ok, but my arm was broken. Richard landed, some touring Australians took care of me while Richard got Steve. I was bundled into the car to go into San Luis Obispo with the certainty I would be back in time for s'mores! (I have never broken a bone before, silly me!)

I had heard of H2 Syndrome but felt that as cautious as I was, I would be exempt. Clearly that was not the case.

How was this a Hang Anything Syndrome?

I am sure that if Joe thought I would even contemplate it, he would have said no flying until he was there. Richard has apologized to me numerous times but it was not his fault; I truly believed I could handle the secondary site and it was entirely my decision to land there.

BULLSHIT.

Cyndia Zumpft Klein - 89169 - H2 - 2010/05/01 - Andrew Beem - FL

It was Joe Greblo's fault.

The HG gods definitely whacked me for being over-confident...

BULLSHIT.

- You weren't trained how to do an approach.

- Your idiot school hard wired you for always coming in with your hands on the downtubes in arm break configuration so that you can safely land in tall weeds - which NOBODY can.

- There wasn't a trace of overconfidence associated with that crash.

...and are reminding me daily as I will be in a cast at least eight weeks.

Don't worry about it. You can get together with the topless and discuss techniques to perfect flare timing during your downtimes. Is this a great sport or what!

Then I'll start upper body strength building until I can get back to the beach to work with Greg until he clears me to fly high again.

1. Yeah, he'll help you get that flare timing perfected.
2. Greg:
- broke an arm blowing a standup landing attempt at the Manquin Happy Acres putting green
- was the one who cleared you to fly high the first time
Tell me why you're expecting better results.
3. This didn't have shit to do with flying high.

In the meantime, wind to your wings, I will be back.

I can hardly wait.

Fly Safe

Any great insights on how to do that?

Why is your daughter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ


...flying on the downtubes at the beginning and end of this bullshit video?

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30082
No Flare - Partial Flare landing

Dennis Wood - 2013/10/13 15:26:03 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

either spend days on the training hill or go find a scooter operation. both will give you the ability to no longer be a belly-flopper.

Fuck that. If Cyndia Klein had been a belly-flopper on 2013/09/27 she wouldn't have a broken arm and had her flying career irreversibly by shortened at least several months.

not all conditions require the same techniques...

But all solo gliders for all capacities, flying weights, and bridle configurations require the same Davis Link, right Dennis?

...so practice enough til all are easy.

And hell freezes over. Go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29942
Why I dont fly PG

skyexplorer - 2013/10/07 04:43:57 UTC
SC

Hate to admit it but I was putting my foot out to land in a HG and ended up 20 feet in the air down wind and stalled. on a HG kept it from cartwheeling but couldn't get any air speed in the one wing climb out. hit hard full push and held the nose to full belly landing. Dust devil in vegetation are hard to see.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

[Tad Eareckson]

Picking up from:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5084.html#p5084

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29956
most painless way to learn

Dontsink - 2013/09/17 22:59:38 UTC
Spain

Yes it is hard.

Goddam...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...right.

I'm a newbie to HG too and the best explanation I've found about how to land these beasties is Jim Rooney's series of posts in the ozther forum.

And here's what one of the most effective out-landing flyers you're gonna find anywhere has to say on that crap:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Search for "Jim Rooney on landings" and you will find the how-to...

Try this search:
"Jim Rooney" site:http://www.kitestrings.org/

...actually doing it is another matter, of course

PRE...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

...CISELY.

vxpilot - 2013/09/17 23:12:07 UTC
McKinney, Texas

Thanks for the replies...

I found some website that explained a bunch of different approaches and noticed that everyone of them started with this statement:

'Approach the earth faster than trim (as ALWAYS)'

That stuck out because I don't recall doing this. But I also don't know until which altitude this is supposed to be done...

From where do you wanna risk stalling?

...or for that matter if it applies when I am towing on a rope...

As opposed to towing on an anchor chain.

...and at no point get higher than 30 feet AGL.

As opposed to higher than 30 feet MSL.

Funny on my parachute landing I usually will do a turn of at least 90-270 degrees, solely for the purpose increasing airspeed and pull double fronts to keep the speed up after completing my turn until about 50' AGL to keep the speed up. But this is just for the pleasure of the fast moving grass. It's not necessary on most parachutes for a safe landing.

That's because you've got a parachute open.

Robert Moore - 2013/09/17 23:21:41 UTC

The absolute best way to learn how to land...

Is to start with a good pair of wheels and always use them.

- and likely the most painless - in three simple steps:

1) Get a good instructor.

If you could find one he'd tell you to always land on the wheels - and after that you wouldn't really need one. Which is why you won't be able to find a good instructor - just a bunch of assholes pretending to teach you how to perfect your flare timing.

2) Listen to the instruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

3) Follow the instruction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c

Don't make assumptions that any other aircraft are going to land using the same techniques as a HG.

Yeah, probably not a good idea to hop in a Cessna 152 and try to whipstall it to a dead stop on a traffic cone in the center of the length of the runway - given what we constantly see happening to hang gliders trying to pull this bullshit.

Leave preconceptions about how a HG should land at home before you take your HG lessons.

And then swallow all the preconceptions about how a hang glider should land from all the asshole who make their livings teaching people how to land hang gliders and selling downtubes.

piano man - 2013/09/17 23:29:03 UTC
Georgia

Here ya go VX, also find someone (instructor is best) who lands well every time and offer to be their driver.

Ask to see his...



...x-rays first.

If you're patient and persistent with practice you'll get it.

Yeah, sure ya will.

You can do consecutive untold thousands of landings like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InzYS6tjWCg


and then just get a little behind on ONE:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


and all the sudden the others weren't worth it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28509
"dynamic analysis of a flare" by Richard Cobb

Nic Welbourn - 2013/09/18 01:16:45 UTC
Canberra

Unless you are landing in a tight LZ, you always want to come in fast on your final approach. It's all about airspeed.

Yeah. And if you're coming into a tight LZ you'll be issued an a special waiver which will exempt you from stalling.

If you're coming into a field so tight that you need to slow your glider down on approach to be able to stop it in time...

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


...you have no business coming into that field.

But it's exactly like remmoore says... you need to have proper instruction (and leave behind what you think you know about flying other things).

If you have proper instruction you'll be told that the principles for landing hang gliders are exactly the same as they are for landing anything else - including helicopters.

Re flying over water: water can be just as hard as pavement...

BULLSHIT. It can kill you just as dead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFadjwZgmU


...but if impact is the only issue I'll take water over concrete any day of the week.

...and it also normally drowns HG pilots (about a 95% chance).

Where do you get that bullshit? Yeah, water's dangerous as hell - but there are virtually no solid numbers in this sport. You're not gonna hear about a lot of landings with drowning potential in which nothing happens. Same way you tend not to hear about Rooney Link pops that drop gliders fifty feet unless they start out below a fifty feet.

vxpilot - 2013/09/18 02:01:53 UTC

Thanks all for your responses. Just to not mislead... I am of course working with an instructor and am quite pleased with his instruction...

Yeah, I'll bet he's really excellent at teaching the stuff you've learned.

...but it is midweek and I am at work just thinking about how much fun I had over the weekend and what I can do to improve my flying.

Try this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

Win/Win.

The whole airspeed issue has become interesting. An experienced, non-instructor pilot was talking about increasing airspeed before every turn and then when I read online that every landing should increase airspeed higher than trim... that made me start wondering if that was all I was missing for more pleasant landings.

What kind of wheels have you got?

I will be sure to bring that up with my instructor when I get out there again.

Cheers All

"All" means only the idiots Jack tolerates because they're all in agreement about 130 pound Greenspot and play nice with each other.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29956
most painless way to learn

Dennis Wood - 2013/09/18 02:18:35 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

your problem with landings is probably you.

His problems with landings are DEFINITELY you assholes who take off and land exclusively at wide open airports and teach landings as if they're gonna be exclusively at narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

you want to see your feet when landing, and this is exactly wrong. you have been standing upright for most of your life. if you look straight ahead, you know if you are standing in a hole or on a box by comparing your view of the horizon and relating that to your height when standing. as long as you look for your feet or the ground, you will continue to purchase downtubes.

If you land upright throughout your hang gliding career you can count on continuing to purchase downtubes and you'll have a very good chance of breaking an arm or dislocating a shoulder.

discuss this with your teacher.

Fuck his teacher. Whoever he is we know he's teaching standup landings which he doesn't need to do at all and not teaching hook-in checks which he really DOES need to do.

Ken Howells - 2013/09/18 02:25:43 UTC
San Bernardino

They say it's usually harder for pilots of other types of aircraft at the start of HG lessons than for those who've been groundbound all their days. That said, we have airline pilots and supersonic jet jockeys in our ranks so it's doable.

Andy Long - 2013/09/18 03:27:02 UTC

Looking at your feet won't work. Why? Because as you level off with your toes a couple feet above the ground, you want to be looking at the horizon and maintaining your altitude above the ground by slowing down (slowly letting the bar out).

You keep on doing this until you notice the horizon rising up in your field of vision, something you can only see when you are looking at the horizon. This horizon rising up is from the glider starting to settle as the root of the glider begins to stall. As you start to fully settle, flare up past your ears.

Good luck.

The process you describe of coming in hot in your small canopy then bleeding off your speed while you skid is really no different than rolling in on wheels in an airplane. If you try that in a hang glider, you'll whack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

With hang gliders, you fully flare on landings unless it's windy on the ground. This fully flaring is similar to when you go as deep as you can with the brakes on a larger ram air canopy when landing.

'Cept with a seventy pound wing that might not stop when you want it to and your hands trapped on a couple of metal tubes that often hold up a lot better than your humeri will.

Do as the pilots above have suggested. Forget about what you do to land your very small ram air canopy. Your instructor knows what you need to do. Listen to him.

Yeah, sure he does...





USHGA only permits the best of the best to become instructors.

You'll get it eventually.

Yeah? Name somebody who eventually got it.

Good luck!

Why does he need good luck? He's gonna get it eventually, right?

Mark Selner - 2013/09/18 04:02:44 UTC

use your finger tips on the bars.feel the pressure as you pull to stay in ground effect.then it switches to nothing.and get ready to flair as you start to feel the glider drop.this worked for me.but im not a vary good glider pilot...

And your writing could use a bit o' work as well.

...so good luck

Yeah, good luck. (See above.)

Jim Rowan - 2013/09/18 12:22:13 UTC

Great suggestions here already, but one thing I might add that helped me get better at landing is to think about kicking the keel with your feet when you flare (in lighter wind). That moves your weight aft of your CG and helps make your flare more effective.

Yeah, there's just no possible way to land a glider without a really effective flare.

Also, having a light touch on DT's allows you to feel feedback from glider and helps in deciding when it's time to flare.

In nice smooth textbook air. Out in the REAL world, however, the feedback might be telling you things like:
- Two seconds ago.
- Two seconds beyond when the one you're in the middle of.
- Bummer you didn't stay on the basetube and belly in.

Steve Forslund - 2013/09/18 13:23:49 UTC

If you are going to go once every five years don't bother with landing just cut away and use your chute.

Or land on the fuckin' wheels.

Red Howard - 2013/09/18 14:57:51 UTC

Bruno,

You want to bleed off speed by slowing down, six inches high, until you are either at the speed of a slow walk or run.

In zero (head)wind you're gonna be going at least the stall speed of the glider. That's a pretty good clip with a lot of damage potential.

Hold the bar in as you descend, level out with your feet six inches high, and let the glider slow down. It's just like pulling your toggles here, except it's all automatic, and you just need to wait for it to happen.

When the glider is flying six inches high, with no input needed from you, then count to ONE and push the control bar out and UP. Take a step or two if needed, when your feet come down. If you did this correctly, your feet will be under you, and it's all very natural.

What if you just stayed prone and skipped the counting and pushing the out and up?

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/13962618245_163eb65caa_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png

Wouldn't that be even more very natural?

Sliding to a stop is not safe, because your feet will stick rather than slide (as I expect you have found out).

But putting your hands up on the downtubes where they'll stay trapped if the glider suddenly stops and you don't is, of course, perfectly safe.

Take a running step or two if needed, because that's what works. Check this out (way easier than doing a slider):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjHqdmUAAFo

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Right.

Stand on a stair step, and look, really LOOK, at the world around you. That is the height that you want to be, as you level out. If you correctly carried some extra speed to the field, it will be no problem if you get a little too low, because you can cruise back up to the correct altitude, and continue with a normal landing.

Or, if you're so inclined...

4:45
Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
HGAviator - 2013/08/11
dead

...you can just fly the glider into the ground.

drgpoppy - 2013/10/19 19:39:53 UTC
Cedar Rapids

Learning to land

There are a lot of suggestions. I also fly planes like you do, and actually I got better at landing by focusing on how I was landing power planes.

1. No shit.

2. Bit of a contradiction to:

Robert Moore - 2013/09/17 23:21:41 UTC

Don't make assumptions that any other aircraft are going to land using the same techniques as a HG.

don't ya think?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29956
most painless way to learn

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2013/10/19 21:33:17 UTC
Alexandria, Virginia

Looks like you got lots of good advice. The only thing I would add is it helps to video record your landings.

Please do. Videos of people working on perfecting their flare timing are endless sources of amusement for me.

You can do it onboard with a GoPro or just have a friend video it from the ground.

Hell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4XbeBamKY


Who says you can't do both?

It always seems some obvious from the third person perspective.

Ya know what's incredibly fucking obvious? Never mind.

Have your instructor or a good pilot review the video with you.

And then ask them what the rationale is for doing dangerous standup landings on the putting green you're coming down on.

Stick with it.

Yeah...

You'll get it eventually.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


You'll get it eventually.

Learning to land on your feet is the most difficult...

...dangerous, unobtainable, useless, stupid...

...part of hang gliding. It takes skill and muscle memory.

And a massive suspension of any hint of any rational thought processes. Lemme tell ya sumpin', asshole...

Landing is THE most dangerous phase of hang glider flight - it's a lot like takeoff 'cept you don't have a whole lotta say about when it happens. That's not a point at which you wanna be doing some stupid stunt that's dependent upon a lot of skill and muscle memory. You want to be using procedures that have as few demands and the widest safety margins as possible.

Landings will also be different depending on the conditions.

Not in Rooneyworld.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Just in the real deal.

Landing into a nice laminar breeze is quite easy and doesn't even require a flare; landing at higher density altitudes in nil wind requires precise timing, good technique, and an aggressive flare.

And...

Andy Long - 2013/09/18 03:27:02 UTC

Good luck!

Mark Selner - 2013/09/18 04:02:44 UTC

...so good luck

Good luck!

Somebody name some other facet of flight training...

- launch:
-- slope
-- flat slope
-- cliff
-- wire
-- tow
--- foot
--- dolly
--- platform
- soaring
-- ridge
-- thermal
- approach

in which the candidate is constantly warned about how much skill will be required and wished luck to get him through the process.

Sorry dudes, I don't engage in critical aviation practices as heavily dependent the kinds of unbroken runs of luck as the one you're advising.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/10/19 22:12:53 UTC

I was teaching a skydiver a while back. I notice that whenever they feel threatened they tend to move their hands up to grab the toggles. This is the opposite of what we should be doing on a HG. Keeping hands comfortably low gives us the most leverage and control.

So that would be on the basetube...

http://vimeo.com/26210217


...right?

...A few seconds before flaring raise hands to shoulder height, open palms push up and don't grab the dts.

So at the most critical/dangerous moment of the flight you should move your hands to a position at which...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...you can't control the glider. Got it. (Will this be on the final?)

As soon as I pointed this out the student did much better.

At what? Whipstalling the glider or landing it?

Looking out as we ground skim allows us to focus on the bar pressure, wings level and feel for back pressure and also notice the glider settling. Staying a couple feet off the ground is very important. This gives you time to settle during the flare.

If it gives you time to settle it also gives you time to get fucked over by the whims of Mother Nature.

If you're gonna do foot landings... I often came in fast with a toe skimming the grass, would transition when the glider slowed to trim, then punch it, pop back up a little, and stop on a dime. Found that very effective and kinda fun.

Rick Cavallaro - 2013/10/21 06:30:48 UTC

Whether hang gliding, paragliding, or kitesurfing, I tell prospective students that they should commit to getting out at least once a week until they're really getting the hang of it. There's plenty of good advice in this thread - but there's simply no substitute for regular practice.

Yeah there is - using a really safe and easy landing technique that doesn't require regular practice. For a safe flawless landing I'm always gonna put my money on the guy who hasn't flown in two years but comes in on the wheels over the guy who works on perfecting his flare timing half a dozen flights every weekend.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.

anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30131
Can't get my landings right

Yaro Posada - 2013/10/17 02:28:53 UTC
Deerfield Beach, Florida

Can't get my landings right

Of course not.

Yaro Posada - 73045 - H2 - 2012/06/08 - James Tindle - AT

You've got total fucking morons for instructors.

The approach was smooth, but the landing just got me confused.

Big surprise. Try using a less confusing landing technique.

I need a constructive critics on this one plz.

You need to totally rethink the basic game plan.

Here is the video:

http://vimeo.com/77096520

Whoa! Dude! You're landing on a putting green! I thought everyone in hang gliding landed in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/10/17 02:42:34 UTC

I think you came in standing pretty much straight up...

Ya think?

- it's better to come in pulled in, plenty of speed to bleed off in ground effect - head forward, legs trailing behind.

Kinda like the way we fly the rest of the flight when we're more concerned with control than doing dead stops on our feet?

Once in ground effect you pushed out a bit then pulled back in, this got you disoriented and a bit even more pushed back, making a flare very hard to do - glider outran you and nosed in.

So...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/02/07
12. Standard Operating Procedure
02. Pilot Proficiency System
07. Novice Hang Gliding Rating (H-2)
-B. Required Witnessed Tasks
02. Demonstrated Skills and Knowledge

-j. Demonstrates three consecutive landings that average less than 100' from a target, safe, smooth, on feet and into the wind.

...how come you need to be telling him this?

Speed is control, control is our friend

No shit. And you can't get any with your hands on the downtubes.

It's very good that you film your stuff, a very useful learning tool.

Be real careful about what it is you're learning in this sport, Yaro.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/10/17 02:50:01 UTC

Can't feel the glider when you grip.

Yeah...

http://vimeo.com/26210217


Right.

Aircraft approach gets your speed you need onto final, gets you into ground effect, allowing you to get your landing gear down...

Or you could just have your landing gear...

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png

...ready to go at all times. Yaro has his ready but elects to land on his feet instead.

...transfer...

And you need to transfer because?

...and have time to bleed remaining speed to approaching trim and light touch at this point is critical for flair timing.

If a light touch is critical for "FLAIR" timing and flare timing is critical to the most dangerous phase of the flight might not it be a good idea to take a good look at the way we're doing things?

If "FLAIR" timing is all that fucking critical to landing - the way line pressure is so fucking critical to towing - then can't we at least spell it right?

I think.

Bullshit.

Yaro Posada - 2013/10/17 03:10:47 UTC

Thanks for your advise, speed on final got it!

Get a refund from your asshole buddies at Florida Ridge. That's something you should be learning and doing on your very first training hill, dune, scooter flights.

Brad Barkley - 2013/10/17 03:39:10 UTC

Where your hands are on final, at shoulder height...

...where he was trained to put them...

...makes pulling in for speed impossible.

Goddam right. And it also makes it impossible for your body to swing through the frame without breaking and/or tearing something.

It's fine to have your hands on the downtubes...

No. It is NOT.

...but you need to keep them much lower down, so you can pull in.

Keep them were they're supposed to be. Put them on the downtubes and you're no longer flying a certified glider.

Then, when you are at trim and it's almost time to flare, you can slide your hands up to shoulder height.

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...

Good luck!

You'll need it - a long unbroken run of it.

J ball - 2013/10/17 03:55:34 UTC

What they said. How much do you fly around completely upright with your hands at your ears? I know I don't much, cuz it's awkward and you don't have much control over anything. So why would I fly the most demanding...

...and dangerous...

...part of my flight like that?

Pull your feet out just a little and rock up a little. Try one hand up, one down if you don't want to do both on the base.

If you're just willing to risk breaking ONE arm.

Fly down to your round out like u f'n mean it! Then rock up as you start to slow, transition hand(s) as you get close to trim, ease up your grip to feel it, flare...

Why? Does he NEED to be doing any of that?

Keep at it, you'll get it.

No he won't. If that were a realistic goal then Brad wouldn't have been wishing him good LUCK.

Landing gets a lot easier when you enjoy it instead of stress over it.

And it gets a lot more ENJOYABLE...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...when you eliminate as many as possible of the elements that contribute to stress.

Tom Low - 2013/10/17 05:00:28 UTC
Belmont

You were having some yaw issues in the final moments. Try to fly perfectly straight for at least five seconds before you flare to let that damp out. More speed into a longer ground effect run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqLanafKz1o

Harold Wickham - 2013/10/17 05:12:45 UTC
Las Vegas

Also follow through on the flare... Hold it high until you come to a complete stop or run it out still holding the flare depending on the conditions...

Or skip the fuckin' flare altogether.

Most important, keep trying and focus on the techniques as you do... Video yourself often you can really pick out the fine details yourself... Good luck...

Yep. Good luck.

Nic Welbourn - 2013/10/17 06:00:20 UTC
Canberra

Thanks for posting...

Why does he NEED to post? Didn't he already pay a USHGA certified instructor for this?

...it's good for all of us in our lifelong pursuit of perfecting landing (and launch).

Which is another way of saying that a safe consistent standup landing is AN UNOBTAINABLE GOAL. This CANNOT be done.

And I disagree about the "(and launch)" part. Yeah, a running slope or tow launch is the most complex, demanding, dangerous thing we do that we HAVE TO do if we wanna get airborne in a lot of situations. BUT... Unlike the standup landing, you:
- are dead certain of the environment at which it'll be taking place
- get to:
-- time it for optimal conditions
-- recruit people to assist you
- always have the option of not doing it

Pulling off an unbroken stream of perfect foot launches is a perfectly attainable goal - and notice you don't hear anybody wishing anybody else "good luck" in their efforts.

Asking for help bodes well for your character and a long life of flying.

Where do you think Zack Marzec would be right now if he had asked people who knew what the fuck they were talking about for help in understanding weak links, releases, and bridles instead of just going along with all the bullshit his dickheaded Flight Park Mafia buddies were doing?

It seemed as though your flare motion was looking good, but then you brought your legs forward at the last moment (perhaps in apprehensive anticipation of contact with the impending ground. Maybe come in just a little higher so you don't stress about the ground as much?).

Think of anything else we can do to remove stress from the equation?

You might try 'kicking the keel' as you flare to get your legs trailing rather than moving forward, this leaves your body CG at the rear. If your CG moves forward at this time it will cause the nose to drop as in your vid.

Whatever you do, hold your flare (unless you are 20m in the air).

Why did he need to flare? He's supposed to maybe come in just a little higher so he doesn't stress about the ground as much and then whipstall the glider just off the ground and hold the flare unless he rockets up to twenty meters? Are you seeing any logical incongruities here?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30131
Can't get my landings right

Rodger Hoyt - 2013/10/17 06:46:01 UTC

Your were a quarter second from a perfect landing - just hold your flare next time.

There isn't a flare in a PERFECT landing.

Your form is excellent. I like how upright you are and I like your hands high on the downtubes - both promote good flare leverage.

The only thing that being upright and having your hands high on the downtubes are good for - putting your glider into a dangerous whipstall.

But at the very last instant you look down in anticipation of your feet touching down, allowing the glider nose to drop and it falls ahead of you. Just hold your flare and the downtubes will come down on your shoulders!

Just stay prone and the wheels will come down on the putting green!

piano_man - 2013/10/17 09:40:34 UTC
Georgia

IMO all pretty good advise posted thus far - from what can be observed from a vid. I'd only add that you should maintain a constant speed - more speed - throughout your whole DBF approach (not just final). In other words, more speed on DBF. Learn to hit the spot you want by altering your track but keep the same speed.

Fuck that. Learn to let the glider hit the spot IT wants by flying it until it does.

Paul Edwards - 2013/10/17 14:53:59 UTC

On a different note, remember that we are always students.

On what? I overcame my training and figured out what a weak link was and what G rating it should be about half a dozen years ago. You wanna direct me to something that or someone who can improve my understanding?

Your video is titled landing fail... which I know is just for fun, but it belies an underlying mindset that is both omnipresent in our sport, totally bogus, and makes people progress more slowly. It's a negative place to start from and it adds mental stress to the process which in turn is going to slow down your learning progress.

Think about your early days on the hill. No one gets upset when they botch a landing.

They should. Then they should start questioning why they're being forced to do dangerous landings and whether they should be trusting the asshole they've got instructing them.

It's just fuel to try harder next time.

Yeah. Keep at it.

J ball - 2013/10/17 03:55:34 UTC

Keep at it, you'll get it.

You'll get it eventually.

Nic Welbourn - 2013/10/17 06:00:20 UTC

Thanks for posting, it's good for all of us in our lifelong pursuit of perfecting landing.

Probably after he's been dead a couple hundred years.

How is it any different now? Staying positive helps you stay relaxed, and staying relaxed will make a huge difference in the quality of your performance.

And keep improving your performance on two point towing. When you get really good you can graduate to pro tow.

Also, the only way to learn good landings is to practice over and over again on the same day and then do it again for many days. Training hill, scooter tow, whatever. It's repetitive positive reinforcement that gets the job done.

Which is why you got into the sport, right? Ever since you were five years old you were constantly dreaming of nailing spot landings on your feet.

Here's an example landing on a Wills Wing Eagle in no wind. Note the speed on approach. One hand is on the base tube, one hand on a down tube. If the flare was half a second sooner it could have been a no-stepper.

http://vimeo.com/7728233

Well, the important thing was that you stopped it well enough to keep from being injured by any of the large rocks strewn all over the place in that narrow dry riverbed you were coming down in.

I found the Eagle to have a very narrow flare window. One second too late and you are going to be doing a belly slide.

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png

Oh, the humanity!

You can practice every aspect of a landing right up to, but not including the flare, at altitude.

You can practice the flare at altitude. Just pro tow with a Rooney Link into a monster thermal - and make sure you have enough altitude to get your chute out and open.

Practice your approach pattern, hand position and transitions at altitude.

Focus on keeping your wings perfectly level while bleeding off speed in ground effect. It sounds easy but it's not! Most landings you see will feature the pilot gyrating around, wobbling on transition, and getting turned or dumped or lifted by responding too slowly to stuff coming at them while in ground effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGn7ITFfHc

Jack Barth - 2013/10/17 14:58:53 UTC

That wasn't a fail! Wasn't the prettiest, but by no means a fail. It would classify as a whack though. Looked squirrely at the end like you weren't directly into the wind. I'd say you were doing most things right. If you do this on every landing then maybe there's a technique issue.

Shut the fuck up, Jack. You don't fly anymore so nothing you say could possibly have any validity.

Good smart landings every time was something I could never master.

Correct. So why try?

No tubeage or boneage (no fail).

Switchy winds will cause stuff like this to happen especially if you encounter them towards the flare window. Like PJ said some wings just don't have much of a margin for error once trim is reached.

So maybe you should use the type of landing that has the widest margin of error - the one the former flight school director...

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

...for that park where Paul was coming down advised.

Karl Allmendinger - 2013/10/17 15:47:36 UTC
Silicon Valley

Another aspect of this is that skills newly learned and not practiced decay, as when new pilots go from multiple launches and landings a day on the bunny hill to one or maybe two launches and landings flying higher sites. 'Back to the bunny hill' is not what they want to hear but it can be very helpful.

Why would they not want to hear that? The reason they got into the first place was to practice foot landings on bunny hills. Fuck that thermalling thousands of feet up with vultures, hawks, eagles a few feet off your wing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30131
Can't get my landings right

King David - 2013/10/17 17:23:11 UTC

I'm no expert by any means, but have watched a lot of students from the bottom of our training hill.

In harnesses that force them to "fly" upright dutifully learning everything wrong.

What everyone else said: HOLD THE FLAIR - at 2:17 your elbows bent as you pulled the nose down, which immediately led to a bonk. If you held your arms straight out it would have been a nice landing.

Holding your arms straight out through the flair is also a safety thing: if you bonk while holding your arms out, you're less likely to swing through the control frame and smack your head on the keel. Also, if you flare too early and zoom up, then pull in like you did, you're going to be kissing the dirt nose first very quickly. The flip side is if you flare too early and hold it out, you'll parachute down, maybe hard, but land on your landing gear and absorb the impact with your legs and downtubes instead of your helmet and face.

As always, if anyone disagrees with my advice feel free to correct me. Here to learn.

OK. If you're coming in upright with your hands on the downtubes you're obviously not all that concerned about safety. You're priority is foot landing. So how 'bout not muddying up the discussion?

Brian Scharp - 2013/10/17 18:07:07 UTC

Careful, trying to restrict yourself from swinging through on impact with arms locked is the best way to break your arms. Now we're talking about the best way to crash.

Yes. But the single best way in hang gliding to set yourself up for a crash is to go upright and put your hands on the downtubes - so these discussions always get rather confusing.

Either let go just prior to impact, or some recommend holding onto one down tube and letting that pull you out of line with the keel. (But not with straight locked arms!)

Any chance we can focus on the best way not to crash? It's pretty win/win. You're flying in a manner that both minimizes your likelihood of crashing and of getting injured if you do.

King David - 2013/10/17 21:40:07 UTC

While you should hold the flair when landing, crashing is another story. I stand corrected.

So what good is that distinction? The person who's just broken an arm still had his hands on the downtube because at the moment he was doing everything he possibly could to avoid the crash or, failing that, minimize the severity. Is there some flavor of aviation in which the pilot behaves differently?

What's different about hang gliding is that there aren't any other flavors of aviation in which the pilot on approach switches to a vastly inferior control mode in order to be better able to whipstall his plane as an exercise to safely stop in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

King David - 2013/10/17 18:40:06 UTC

Ah, that's a good point, I remember now. It's been a while since I've gone over the Everything-Has-Gone-Wrong crash procedure.

Which really shouldn't have anything to do with a:

Can't get my landings right

thread.

I recall reading about grabbing one downtube with both hands before impact and saying 'If I'm thinking quickly enough to remember to do that before impact I'm probably thinking clearly enough to not need it', but always good to refresh.

Do you recall saying "And if I were REALLY thinking clearly...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...I'd have never been on the downtubes to begin with because I had absolutely no need to land on my feet."?

Although I'm sure someone will drop in to say it's better to break your arms than your neck.

It's better not to get into a serious crash situation to begin with.

http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions

Majo Gularte - 2013/10/16

It was my second tow of the day, I had my doubts to take off, something told me I shouldn't, when I mentioned my insecurity, my instructor told me: it's nothing! Don't worry, go...!

I should have never listened... I was hooked; I loaded the glider and shouted "LIBRE!" Then the cable tied to my harness yanked me and I started running, a few strides were enough and I was in the air, but this time something was wrong, for some reason the glider was across to my right and although I was attempting to correct the course of it... I couldn't.

A few seconds later I was about to crash into a wooden fence that was just besides from where we were practicing. In the few seconds I had to react I thought that the trunks could hurt my stomach or my chest so hard that I decided to hold on very hard to the glider and hit the obstacle with my feet...

...still don't know if it was the best decision... I want to believe that it was.

Who the fuck knows if that was the best decision? If she'd let go she might have come out just badly bruised or she might have come out quaded.

But I one hundred percent guarantee you that if she'd launched off a cart she wouldn't have crashed into those posts and my guess is that she wouldn't have crashed as a direct consequence of the tow at all.

Casey Cox - 2013/10/17 18:59:19 UTC

I learn best by reading, hearing, doing and seeing, or seeing then doing. I had some good advice that was being told to me but I'm a visual learner. What helped me the best was a GoPro on my keel.

Bummer we didn't have a camera on Zack Marzec. That would've helped us a good bit when we were busy beating the shit out of the pro toad Rooney Link deniers.

I think some instructors don't want any kind of distraction to their student like a vario or camera.

They don't want solid evidence of their incompetence and negligence showing up in court. (Jon Orders' trial is supposed to (have) start(ed) today, by the way.)

But like I said, I'm a visual learning and I could not land on my feet for several years and once I got a video of my landings, I hit them right off. I'm not a fast learner and I wish I had the GoPro a long time before I got it.

Anybody who denies or downplays the value of video in advancing individual students and the sport itself is a liar and/or total moron.

Aspiring Pilot for LIfe and Focused

You're not focused enough to notice that you've got too many letters capitalized in the fourth word.

AndRand - 2013/10/17 18:59:58 UTC
Poland

If you are fast enough on impact to hit the keel you will probably hurt your hands trying to hold.

How 'bout we start a discussion on CPR?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30131
Can't get my landings right

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2013/10/17 19:40:02 UTC
Alexandria, Virginia

My two cents: The 2-step flare

I still struggle with landings from time to time and was literally practicing landings yesterday.

1. Foot or wheel?

2. Where were you practicing them?
- the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place where you've never landed and never will
- the Happy Acres putting green where you've always landed and always will

3. Here's your rating:

Dan Lukaszewicz - Alexandria, Virginia - 88871 - H3 - 2012/08/23 - Steve Wendt - AT FL PL ST 360 CL FSL

If you still struggle with foot landings from time to time at this point in your career (like everybody in the sport does at all stages of their careers) that means it's not safe for you to go down in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place, right? So...

- When do you anticipate you'll be good to go?

- If you don't anticipate ever being good to go what's the point in perpetually struggling with them? Wouldn't your focus, time, energy be better spent on devising strategies for not landing in narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?

Gliders can have vastly different landing characteristics and when you change gliders it will take some time to get your timing back...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

Not really seeing a timing issue here. Maybe you can help me out.

The air is different in every LZ...

Bullshit. Just assume it totally sucks wherever you're coming down and you'll be fine.

...and your level of fatigue or fear plays a larger role in landing than you may think.

No it doesn't.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world X/C flying. I have had the wind due 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an groomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights w/ sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just flying into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on. Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the ORF has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Anybody with half a brain or better knows that when you're using a technique that demands a radical all or nothing response inside of a precise one second window that a little bit of fatigue or fear can very easily translate to a lot of bent and broken aluminum.

I always land best when I'm confident and come in with speed. When I'm fearful I tend to stay in ground effect too long and miss the flare window. Then the glider doesn't have enough remaining energy to rise into a flare.

And you think that makes you special?

Most pilots flare late, and for good reason. When you flare early it's possible to balloon up and end up stalled several feet above the ground. But try to be early and flare early with a two-stage flare. When you flare late there are not many options left and it's tough to consistently wait until the perfect moment and just pop the perfect flare.

So why flare at all?

Make a long straight final approach with good speed and round out into ground effect.

Assuming that at this point you've cleared the trees and/or taxiway signs doing your long straight final.

Begin to flare as soon as the glider is settled into ground effect and before you think it's time. Just small test flare... maybe 25 percent and be sure to hold it; taking back your flare will cause a whack. If you balloon up it will be just a little and when you "crest" it's time to let out the rest of your flare. If you do your test flare and nothing happens just continue into a full flare.

Or... Just roll it in on the fuckin' wheels.

Be prepared to run in any case.

I don't need to - I'm rolling it in on the fuckin' wheels.

If you are a little late you may be able to save it by running as you continue to flare. If you are really late and the glider has passed you just do the best you can to land on your wheels.

You can't. The whole reason you're trying to stop on your feet is because you're landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Be sure to post an update.

Yeah Yaro, keep those videos coming.

It looks like you are very close to making some great landings.

Sure Dan...

Nic Welbourn - 2013/10/17 06:00:20 UTC

Thanks for posting, it's good for all of us in our lifelong pursuit of perfecting landing.

Whatever you say.

Yes. He undoubtedly WILL be making SOME "great" landings. But if he's anything like most of the rest of us mere mortals he'll also be making some spectacularly bad ones as a sole consequence of always attempting make "great" ones.

He will NEVER be good enough to safely land in...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3858
Landing in the Big T wash

NMERider - 2013/04/05 21:09:27 UTC

There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.

...narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and there's a real good chance that he'll break an arm in this absurd unobtainable quest to do so.

hgflyer - 2013/10/18 02:58:17 UTC

As usual. Your feeling the Love from many great sources and experienced pilots.

Just not The Extremist One Percent.

Here's my 2 cents...Make sure your wing and equipment is set up so as to make flying easier, safer and more noticeably controllable or obvious.

Yeah, put pneumatic wheels on the basetube.

Make sure your wing is tuned to PERFECT TRIM SPEED!

There's no such thing as "PERFECT TRIM SPEED". There's just an adjustment that an individual pilot makes in an effort to best suit the kind of flying he anticipates doing.

You can check it yourself while at altitude or ...have an experienced test pilot (as close to your same hook in weight) find perfect trim. If the wing is balanced perfectly for your skills and weight. It will make tuning into your wing physically and mechanically, easier.

Bullshit. It doesn't have shit to do with skills and weight. The hook-in weight goes up and so does the airspeed and stall speed. Slow it down if you're gonna be flying in thermals and light lift, speed it up for strong ridge lift.

I know my response adds a whole new question? How do you find perfect trim speed or know where perfect trim speed should be?

Same way you find the perfect helmet. Know all the specifics of the crash you're going to be in.

Put the fuckin' trim anywhere you feel like and recognize that you're gonna trim closer to stall if it's back but it'll be less tiring to fly slow. It's not gonna change shit about WHEN your glider stalls on landing or what you need to do in the course of that process.