landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30163
Landing Approaches on Restricted Landing Fields?

NMERider - 2013/10/22 06:42:04 UTC

Don't believe the rubbish about so-called slipping turns. They do exist and if improperly executed in a tight spot can result in a high-speed sideways impact with the surface or the very object being avoided.

1. Is there some kind of turn that if improperly executed in a tight spot CAN'T result in a high-speed sideways impact with the surface or the very object one is attempting to avoid?

2. Do we have any incident reports on people doing improperly executed slipping turns in tight spots resulting in high-speed sideways impact with the surface or the very objects they're attempting to avoid? It seems to me that the kind of person who will slip a turn into a tight field is highly unlikely to be the kind of person who will fuck one up.

Make every landing an RLF landing even if it's in a great big flat field full of streamers.

That's absurd! If you've got a great big flat field full of streamers you wanna do a really wide approach so you have plenty of time to go upright, move your hands to shoulder or ear height, and adjust your glide to hit the traffic cone in the middle. How else are you ever gonna score a Hang Four?

Set up the scenario in your mind before you get low and then execute your plan when you do land and if it were and RLF. Pilots bug me about flying XC and almost never treat their local landings as mock RLFs.

So? They can just fly with a traffic cone and drop it in the middle of the field before they set up their approach. Then they'll feel right at home and shouldn't have any problems.

You can practice and improve your crisis situation skills in safe environments. Failure to do this on a regular basis lowers your odds of survival in critical XC flying.

Ya know what I don't like about you Jonathan?

You pretty much never say anything that the Jack and Davis Show douchebags will / can / want to disagree with. You get along great with just about everyone 'cause you never do anything in the way of fixing any of the many seriously broken issues in this sport and taking on any of the totally out of control serial killers.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png


When you get your nose pulled back out of Davis's ass you can go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30163
Landing Approaches on Restricted Landing Fields?

Dave Hopkins - 2013/10/23 15:57:51 UTC

Not using side slipping turns is a biggy. Inexperienced pilots...

Don't you mean "young" pilots?

...assume this is a good technique .

Inexperienced pilots after their first one or two training hill or scooter tow flights assume that whipstalling the glider in an effort to stop dead on their feet is a good technique. And after that it doesn't matter how many dislocated shoulders, broken arms, and snapped necks they see happening to people who have wheels but refuse to use them on the putting greens where all these things are happening. They're gonna keep on doing the same thing and hoping for better results until hell freezes over.

It is a killer !

Really? Name someone it's killed - or, failing that, scratched. Compare/Contrast to what we're seeing every weekend with the standard mandated bullshit.

Along with hitting objects with one wing !

Totally with ya there, Jonathan and Dave. Whenever I fly into stuff I try to hit it with BOTH wings.

Getting into a RLF requires precise speed and glide control.

BULLSHIT. Turbulence, thermals, shifts, gusts, windshadows, gradients throw precise speed and glide control efforts straight to hell. Getting into a tight field requires a good pilot ready at all times to radically alter his game plan at any given moment as the situation may change and maintain wide safety margins at all times.

Side slipping removes that opition.

Sideslipping IS an "opition", dickhead. As are:
- extended or shortened approach legs
- 180s
- efficient coordinated turns
- fast low turns
- airspeed/glide adjustments
- drag chutes
- rotating to upright
- mushes
- stalls
- wheels
- runouts
- dead stop whipstalls

I had to do a high speed dive into a steep hill once . As I let the bar out I knew I could over shoot the top. I dug both boot toes hard into the turf all the way up ,picked them up just as I reached the top and settled on to the top of the hill with 2 ft to spare. Forget the sneakers and bare footed flying !

Or we could:
- forget high speed dives into steep hills
- remember drag chutes

But yeah, Dave, if we're gonna do stupid shit as a regular matter of course we probably oughta armor up as much as our max hook-in weights will allow.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30163
Landing Approaches on Restricted Landing Fields?

kukailimoku - 2013/10/23 18:18:47 UTC
Oahu

Slipping turns:
On a single surface glider or soft double surface (Mark IV, Pulse, etc.), might work.
On a rocket ship glider, almost never works.

How 'bout a fifty to one fiberglass sailplane?

Assuming nothing significant going on with the air below treetop level (and taking ground effect out of the equation so I don't hafta quibble) ANYTHING we do other than flying max LD is gonna reduce the amount of field we eat up.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30163
Landing Approaches on Restricted Landing Fields?

Steve Seibel - 2013/10/24 01:22:30 UTC

slipping turn challenge / new thread

Re 2 posts above-- I have a response but I do not want to hijack a practical flying thread. If what you say is full assessment of the situation though, you should be able to put the glider in a 45 degree bank at the min sink angle-of-attack, then smoothly and steadily pull in the bar over a 5-second interval, causing a steady acceleration over those 5 seconds. As long as the glider is accelerating, weight is not fully supported by either lift or drag. So by your assessment, if I understand, the yaw strings should blow markedly sideways as the glider falls through the air, falling earthward under gravity's pull.

If so you can film this and win the "slipping turn challenge". I will eat humble pie and buy you a beer.

HANG ON I will re-post this content in a new thread so we do not trample on the restricted landing thread any further. Because this will turn into a physics discussion.

New thread:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30177
Slipping turn challenge/ discussion

If we want to take the short hand that we will call a diving turn a slipping turn, that's one thing, but the comments above seemed to be going further than that.

Yeah Steve, I was pretty confident you'd turn up here with this. And I've skimmed your stuff before and I'll happily defer to you.

But...

If I come over the treeline, pull in, and roll hard I'm doing the opposite of what I'd wanna do to maximize my glide and time in the air. I'm dumping energy I'm not gonna get back.

And then I'll level the glider - and I'm gonna have a crisp response 'cause I've got a lot of speed - then wait until it's starting to feel like not flying any more.

Tim Ward - 2013/10/24 13:49:11 UTC

From a practical point of view, whether you call it a slipping turn, a diving turn, or a recovery from a semi-stalled turn, it's not often useful for tight LZs, because while it does lose altitude, it doesn't lose much energy. You wind up rocketing along near the ground needing to slow down before you hit the other side.

Within a half span or so of the ground, you're in ground effect, and so you're not losing energy as fast as you would when higher.

If it's that tight it's not an LZ - it's a FIELD. And it's a field you shouldn't have come into. And if you're gonna come into fields that tight then toss a drag chute.

Paul Edwards - 2013/10/24 19:16:47 UTC

I'm not really qualified to comment here as I am a total wimp about low turns.

You just made a valuable comment. Being a total wimp about low turns is an excellent disqualification for being able to handle tight landing situations.

NMERider - 2013/10/22 06:42:04 UTC

Make every landing an RLF landing even if it's in a great big flat field full of streamers. Set up the scenario in your mind before you get low and then execute your plan when you do land and if it were and RLF. Pilots bug me about flying XC and almost never treat their local landings as mock RLFs. You can practice and improve your crisis situation skills in safe environments. Failure to do this on a regular basis lowers your odds of survival in critical XC flying.

I love DBF approaches with long high finals.

I never had the slightest doubt.

Stay close to a field that's big enough I say.

And never use it as an exercise to enhance your ability to handle a tight field. You certainly wouldn't want to raise your odds of survival in a critical XC situation.

However I did witness a pilot flying a Pulse turn tight 360s all the way to the deck, then level out with just enough speed to glide a short ways and flare. He landed it right on the frikkin cone. It was a couple of years ago but if memory serves the whole approach could have fit into a 75 foot diameter circle.

Memory does not serve.

Too risky for my taste, but it's good to see what's possible sometimes.

Very little is gonna be possible if you don't practice anything. You don't hafta duplicate what you saw - just do a mild version of the same thing and keep pushing your comfort level a little each time.

Jason Boehm - 2013/10/24 19:39:37 UTC

75 feet or 75 yards?

Yards. And that would hafta be the radius - not the diameter.

Paul Edwards - 2013/10/24 19:47:23 UTC

I mean feet, but I really can't back the number up.

No. You can't. Because for the glider to be turning inside of a 75 foot diameter circle the inside wingtip would hafta be nearly stationary.

What I remember the most is how astonished I was at how narrow the whole pattern was. Before that evening I would have said it was impossible. It couldn't have been more than 100 feet from where he rounded out to where his feet touched earth.

But don't experiment any and work your way up a bit towards what he was doing. Just assume that you're never gonna hafta land in anything tighter than the Lockout Mountain Happy Acres putting green.

And keep working on your flare timing. You never know when somebody's gonna come in and strew large rocks all over the place.

Jonathan Boarini - 2013/10/24 19:49:52 UTC
Miami

I always come in on final with plenty of speed. But I do wonder, would it be a valid tactic to come in slow to avoid overshooting and hitting a hazardous obstacle? Has anybody ever done this in a RLF? My thinking is that by coming in slow on final you have less energy and maybe in certain cases mushing in and pounding into the ground might be preferable to hitting say, powerlines on the other side.

NMERider - 2013/10/24 20:03:27 UTC

It is very irresponsible advice to suggest to newer pilots that it is ever o.k. to come in to an RLF situation with low airspeed without going into details of the ramifications of hitting turbulence or a gradient, etc.

Or...

http://www.flyatos.com/bill_landing.jpg


...suddenly finding yourself looking at powerlines straight ahead and not having the maneuvering speed you need to be able to survive the situation.

It's a good way to lead someone who is naive into the morgue or the ER.

1. Shouldn't his USHGA certified instructor schooled him enough in the basics to make him invulnerable to crap advice?

2. Yeah... So's THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

But you're not gonna get in any trouble with anyone for speaking out against newer pilots using low airspeed on landing approaches.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30163
Landing Approaches on Restricted Landing Fields?

Tom Low - 2013/10/23 05:04:14 UTC
Belmont

I started a similar thread. Please take a look.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11673
Consider unconventional use of emergency chute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49D_NBLXnwg


Throw your chute.

If you're gonna do stupid shit on a regular basis consider conventional use of a drag chute.

Chris Valley - 2013/10/25 22:27:52 UTC

With all due respect my fellow Bay Area pilot...

There aren't a lot of your fellow Bay Area pilots who are due any respect - and you yourself are far from an exception.

...been chewing on this concept for a while...

Took me about a quarter second.

...and have to say that I disagree.

I think throwing your emergency chute hoping it will act as a drogue chute is a really bad idea, and could lead to far worse consequences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegD4QeAc58


(Note: I had most of this post - including reference to the above video - composed before more pressing discussions kicked it to the back burner. So I came up with this delightful example of what can happen when two "safety devices" kick in simultaneously when not needed or wanted well before AndRand's 2013/10/26 12:19:58 post on that thread.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHrTWih0rnE


Do ya think?

You are at a point in your flight where you are navigating a tight landing area...one's focus should be on flying the glider at this point, not removing a hand (or two) from the control bar to toss a chute.

1. How 'bout...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704


...to grab downtubes - so's you can practice for landing in narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?

2. But it's perfectly OK to remove a hand from the control bar in the course of a low level lockout...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...to try to pry open whatever piece of crap you're using a release 'cause...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Doug Doerfler - 2012/03/13 21:19:59 UTC

I still can not understand, if you get to the point its gone real bad and you need to release, what you need both hands on the control bar for

The control of these things is weight shift....if you are locked out it means weight shift doesn't work any more

...any control effort you're exerting is totally useless. Besides...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

You can just pitch up, break the weak link, and fly away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9fQuDzFuCE


Instant hands free release.

A pilot should be focusing on some precision flying, and get the glider on the ground as safely as possible...besides you might need the cushion of your chute for impact.

What? Precision flying on a hang glider near the surface? Where are you getting this crap? Hang gliding is built on a foundation of compromising control to the maximum extent possible in all critical phases of flight - foot launch, landing, low level lockout. Precision flying is reserved entirely for dune skimming, thermalling, and intentional aerobatics.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29126
Put big wheels on a Sport 2??

Bruce Parker - 2013/11/24 16:28:44 UTC

I prefer to land with wheels because I have a torn ligament in my left knee. I can't afford even the slightest mistake without painful results. I see a lot people who land great most of the time end up hurting themselves and/or their glider sooner or later because of a slight error foot landing. I used to be self-conscious about being one of the only ones still landing on wheels but the longer I fly, and the more I see others have occasional bad landings, the more convinced I am that it's the easiest and most consistent method. I don't fly cross country and I can land on my feet when I need to, but I don't risk it unless I have to.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30403
Saved by the wheels

Dontsink - 2013/12/02 21:38:22 UTC
Spain

An "almost bought it" landing.

Winter soaring conditions in Pradales, a small hill topped by eolic generators.

We had a really nice flight, 40-50 kph on the takeoff and about one hour soaring with thermals cycling through. We went to land because it was very cold.

Landing field is long, uphill from the road to the lone tree and then slightly downhill. My friend wanted to try an uphill landing but he found some turbulence.

I decided to aim at landing just before or at the tree but I caught some sink and then rotor put my right wingtip down just before rounding into ground effect.

I had planned on a runout landing but those Icaro wheels saved my day!

The right wheel took quite a big sideload with no damage at all.

http://vimeo.com/80829495

And good job setting that spreader to keep your carabiner from getting crushed.

mrcc - 2013/12/02 22:11:54 UTC
Auckland

WHEELS are your friend

But when you're being pulled up your fishing line is the focal point of your safe towing system - so wheels aren't really all that important.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guwuxyttd5w
Mike Barber - Part 4/4 (Final)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guwuxyttd5w

Safe Landing

Airspeed is your friend. You can fly without airspeed or you can fly without altitude, but you have to have one or the other. You can't fly without airspeed AND altitude.

Don't be low and slow. You WILL get hurt. It will eventually bite you. You'll get away with it fifty times in a row and it'll eventually bite you.

Don't you lose a lot of upper speed range when you rock up to vertical and grab the downtubes at shoulder or ear height? Isn't it a monumentally bad idea to throw that speed range away in conjunction with moving your hands to positions at which Steve Pearson says he can't control the glider when you're on final?

Don't be afraid to walk. Land out in the open safe area.

So can I put you down as being of the persuasion that landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is stupid?

Almost everyone who crashes on landing is... for convenience. To land close - close to the road, close... They hit the wires, the trees. Whatever.

Bullshit.

- People who are confident enough to sacrifice runway for convenience aren't flying into wires or trees. They ARE fucking up - but virtually never to that extent. They're overshooting and crashing into the occasional parked glider or fence - especially the ones who've been trained to aim for traffic cones in the middles of fields (i.e., pretty much everyone).

- The OVERWHELMING cause of landing crashes is...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

Even very good pilots. And it's almost always 'cause they didn't wanna walk. So pick larger, safe, opening areas... you know... open areas to land in. 'Cause if you don't you're gonna eventually get hurt.

So then what's the point of the spot landing requirements USHGA has for ratings? Nobody can do them consistently, they're not safe, and they don't give a skill that you've got any business needing to use.

It WILL catch up with you.

Goddam...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29126
Put big wheels on a Sport 2??

Bruce Parker - 2013/11/24 16:28:44 UTC

I prefer to land with wheels because I have a torn ligament in my left knee. I can't afford even the slightest mistake without painful results. I see a lot people who land great most of the time end up hurting themselves and/or their glider sooner or later because of a slight error foot landing. I used to be self-conscious about being one of the only ones still landing on wheels but the longer I fly, and the more I see others have occasional bad landings, the more convinced I am that it's the easiest and most consistent method. I don't fly cross country and I can land on my feet when I need to, but I don't risk it unless I have to.

...right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs
Mike Barber - Part 3/4

2:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs

Risk Taking

One thing I do with my students is... Over the years, I've learned the hard way. I've been on the cold hard x-ray table. I've seen a lot of my friends get hurt or die - and it's just a game. So you have to realize this.

I don't risk safety any more. I'd say... the absolute hardest I would push it is on a thousand to one chance of getting hurt - and that's pushing VERY hard. It's pushing it TOO hard. Because, I do this more than a thousand times a year. You're really pushing the envelope at a thousand to one chance of getting hurt. It should be more like one in a HUNDRED thousand - which is probably the same as driving your car.

So Mike...

Average recreational hang gliding participant. What are the odds of him making it through his first thousand standup landing attempts in putting green environments without...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30178
USHPA Politics

oldhgpilot - 2013/10/24 02:59:43 UTC

He is selling Wings Over Wasatch, any buyers? He didn't do @$&! to promote safe flying in Utah (ask him about the shoulder incident) and believes that he can always say he's right and everyone else is wrong.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...one or more of them resulting in a serious injury?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27421
Mike Barber flies with wheels

Davis Straub - 2012/04/17 12:19:33 UTC

I spoke with Mike after he out flew everyone (Mike has the longest flex wing flight at 437 miles) here to the Florida Ridge. He talked about flying with wheels (I'm flying with wheels). He stated that if things got dicey on landing he stayed on the base tube and landed on his wheels.

Name some instructors, schools teaching this. Show me where in a Wills Wing owner's manual...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...that's presented as an option.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30393
I feel quite sick

Steve Corbin - 2013/12/03 03:20:01 UTC

While there are many varying dynamics in HG accidents, and no one fix will work for all, I suspect that there have been many necks broken simply due to a lack of decent sized wheels on, or connected to, the basetube.

I've only been landing on wheels for a few years, previous to that I had the same arrogant attitude as many fliers, that it was somehow less than manly to have big wheels, the bigger the wheels the smaller the balls.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Orion Price - 2013/03/11 15:12:28 UTC

Final bit of troll food, I read about Tad's reputation this morning.

Tad Eareckson is a generally discounted crackpot and internet troll. He doesn't fly and has been perma-banned from most everywhere: .org, oz report and all the local club websites with discussion forums like ours.

He has two main speaking points. 1. All HG landings should be done prone as belly landings using wheels. All other foot landings are suicidal, he will say.

Mike Blankenhorn - 2013/03/12 03:57:34 UTC

Suicide is highly under rated, Tad should try it, but no wait he's lost his balls!

Orion Price - 2013/03/13 05:52:48 UTC

Tad really has no testicles. He says he had one surgically removed. However we all know they took both out.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

Practically every HGer whacks sometime. It's luck, and luck alone, that stands between you and a broken neck.

Usually just a broken arm or dislocated shoulder.

It's like Russian Roulette...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs
Mike Barber - Part 3/4

Mike Barber - 2007/12/25

Risk Taking

One thing I do with my students is... Over the years, I've learned the hard way. I've been on the cold hard x-ray table. I've seen a lot of my friends get hurt or die - and it's just a game. So you have to realize this.

I don't risk safety any more. I'd say... the absolute hardest I would push it is on a thousand to one chance of getting hurt - and that's pushing VERY hard. It's pushing it TOO hard. Because, I do this more than a thousand times a year. You're really pushing the envelope at a thousand to one chance of getting hurt. It should be more like one in a HUNDRED thousand - which is probably the same as driving your car.

...most times it's a downtube and bruised ego, but other times...

I have compassion for those seriously hurt doing something I love to do myself.

We all wear helmets and carry reserve chutes. But because our gods don't have wheels we are reluctant to use them for fear of the kidding from our buddies.

Those AREN'T our BUDDIES. Those are total fucking douchebags like OP, Mike Blankenhorn, Jason Boehm, and Jack Axaopoulos.

Our club requires the helmets and 'chutes, why not the wheels?

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Looking fwd to your input, whatever it may be.

Here's mine...

HAVING them is a good start but USING them - for every landing in which you're coming in with significant groundspeed, the way you're doing now - is what would knock the crash and serious incident rate to a fiftieth of what it's always been.

[Tad Eareckson]

This is kinda cool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQutxzHb_8


Have a hard time breaking an arm by being a bit late on the flare timing.