Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

It isn't based on a Linknife.

That's totally cool too.

- Peter's inspired to develop the Linknife because...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=607
Understanding Tow Releases

Peter Birren - 2011/08/29 18:40:45 UTC

In my 1000+ tows, I've had to use my hook knife three times... the first was on a pulley tow when an old 2-string release didn't work. Sure did need that hook knife... and RIGHT NOW! Though it worked fine and I lost the bridle and release, it gave me the inspiration to come up with the Linknife.

...he's stupid enough to damn near kill himself as a consequence of using a piece of shit two-string that can't even handle whatever chintzy dangerous weak link he's using.

- Peter develops yet another method of dumping the glider off tow at the worst possible time, when it's climbing hard in a near stall situation, using his...

http://www.birrendesign.com/LKOpinions.html
Linknife - alternate setup as automatic release

2002 - Pat Denevan is using a "nose line" as an automatic release with great success...

...miracle mechanism.

- At some point in the past dozen years Pat reconfigures the Birrenator to eliminate the Linknife and directly engage the three-string workhorse of his operation. (No high volume commercial operation is gonna put up with the bullshit of cutting and replacing a weak link every flight.)

- The state-of-the-art three-string that Peter would've been using if his IQ had been up into the mid double digits proves to be...

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png


...too complex a mechanism for Pat's operation to be safely employed.

- So he dumbs it down to the piece of shit...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/10 03:41:02 UTC

They're working on a 2-string release, using spectra line, that really cannot be attached incorrectly.

...two-string that locks up under load and was the near fatal catalyst for Peter developing the Linknife.

Total fucking lunacy. You couldn't make up stuff this good. Reminds me a lot of...

- After half a dozen tows Donnell pulls one G out of his ass as a weak link that will keep the glider from ever getting into too much trouble.

-- Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey:

--- determines that a loop of 130 pound Greenspot installed either on a towline or bridle end with the knot hidden from the tension:

---- single will break at 260 pounds and limit the towline tension to 260 pounds which is about one G which is a good rule of thumb for most solo gliders

---- double - obviously - will break at 520 pounds and limit the towline tension to 520 pounds which is about one G which is a good rule of thumb for most tandem gliders

--- installs an identical good rule of thumb double loop at the front end

--- to give the tug driver the option of forgetting to install a weak link designs a tow mast breakaway which blows at the same load as the front end weak link which blows at the same load as the back end tandem weak link

--- refuses to tow gliders with double loops because they'll endanger him - unless there are two people under the wing

--- after some years figures out that the tow mast breakaway which he designed to break at the same load as either of the double loops is as likely to break as either of the double loops

--- replaces the front end four strand with a three strand to protect the tow mast breakaway

--- leaves the four string on the tandem so there's not even a one out of three chance of the tandem leaving without the rope

--- starts using four-stranders on solos because he can't get them airborne with what he's using as a good rule of thumb

--- retains the designation of Fucking Genius

So anyway...

I can't totally figure out how this version of the Birrenator works or...

http://vimeo.com/68791399


...is disengaged. May not be able to able to distinguish between a deliberate and auto release after the fact.

But I'll tell ya one thing... NOBODY's stupid enough to react to a steep climb by pulling a lanyard - even if he's stupid enough to design, use, advocate devices which do that automatically and/or make good decisions in the interest of some else's safety when he's on the power end of the string.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Ryan Brown - 2013/11/12 03:28:44 UTC

I too, was on the hill, yesterday.
My first sighting of the incident was right before impact, just after I had settled my glider on the launch of the seventy foot. As I looked up, I saw half of a wing falling around ten feet to the ground. Thankfully, the response was immediate. And, as stated earlier, the pilot-physician who was first to respond was Johnny-On-The-Spot!

Important detail. This Mark IV was packed into the pilot's semi cab during transport. From what I got second hand, he would do an extra break-down to fit the glider into the sleeper of his big rig.

Hoping he recovers quickly.

Yes, I can see how a glider handled in such a manner would likely tumble after a whipstall.

Glenn Zapien - 2013/11/12 04:53:46 UTC

Can't remember the kids name.

Or to use apostrophes.

I worked with him on the training hill as an apprentice instructor. He was doing really good, and was on his way to an H-2.

So he probably wasn't pushing the bar out as a reaction to a stall, right?

Bummer... I like what dayhead had to say about towing.

How do you like what...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...Richard Johnson was saying about towing nearly forty years ago? Pretty much the same thing isn't it? How come I never heard you saying that you liked what the guys insisting that the sole purpose of the weak link was to protect against overload were saying when they were dealing with Davis and Rooney and their asshole Dragonfly buddies?

And there was another well known, very experienced pilot...

Who's name you don't even know - and can't be bothered to look up.

...that was killed recently...

2013/02/02

...while towing with an older glider (TRX?)...

Xtralite

...had an aero tow line break...

Right. The aero TOW LINE broke. Couldn't POSSIBLY have been the focal point of the safe towing system that precipitated the whipstall.

...and low alt tumble and something mentioned about luft lines...

What are "luft lines"?

...and sail shrinkage.

Bullshit. Nobody said a freakin' word about luff lines and shrinkage.

Phil - 2013/11/12 12:53:12 UTC
Ireland

Could a sudden pitch-up immediately on releasing the tow line be caused by one or more of the luff-lines being wrapped around a batten end?

The pressure from the tow might overcome the exaggerated reflex until the pilot released, then... pow!

This is really only a possibility if this was the first flight of the day on that glider and the looped luff-line wasn't spotted. My old K5 is notorious for this and is something I consciously look out for during my Daily Inspection.

I'm not familiar with the Mark IV or the tow operation in question but the other possibility in my mind is that the hang loop may have slipped all the way back to its rearmost possible position. The pilot wouldn't notice anything funny on tow (if being towed from chest loops) until he released.

This is all rubbish. The glider behaved and responded exactly as would've been expected.

Red Howard - 2013/11/12 13:55:34 UTC

Phil,

I can't comment on this incident, or the towing set-up...

Then don't comment on anything, red. 'Cause this is ENTIRELY about towing and what actually happens...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...when you abruptly STOP towing.

...but NOBODY should have a hang loop that could slip from the correct position, towing or not.

Don't worry. Nobody DOES.

There is an easy, bolt-on and bulletproof set-up that you can use to secure the position of any hang loop (main or secondary) which attaches to the keel. I see a lot of HGs that depend on some friction-tape to keep the hang loops in position, and that crappy set-up is just bogus.

The sandpaper shit - fer sure. Absolutely moronic.

Here's how:

http://user.xmission.com/~red/#cg

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/12 16:06:37 UTC

I believe it was his first flight of the day, although I'm not completely certain.

Well, you can be completely certain what his LAST flight of the day was. Unless you count the chopper - then it would have been his second to last.

Usually the day starts with people setting up on top of the training hill and taking a short flight down to the tow area. I really like this, by the way. In his case, he set up down by the tow rig, so no initial warm-up flight.

He had flown the day before. I think I heard he'd had a half dozen successful tow flights.

Plus this one. Totally successful while it was a tow flight.

I recall flying with him several other times this summer at Tres Pinos, so I know he had some experience.

Sometimes all the experience in the world ain't good for shit.

By the way, if I remember right, the event occurred between 10AM and 11AM. Wind was pretty steady, in the 5-10MPH range. /jd

Probably an invisible dust devil or bullet thermal.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/12 17:42:57 UTC

I've personally towed there with nearly 200 tows without an major issue. Highest I've released would be around 1700, 600 would be a disappointment.
Perhaps the glider had a structural issue not caught during preflight?

- No. It didn't have a structural issue until it tumbled and broke the outboard leading edge sections.

- Right. A symmetrical structural issue not caught during preflight which had no effect during tow and resulted in the glider tucking and tumbling after a whipstall and was unidentifiable by anyone at Mission when they packed up the wreckage.

1978/04/06 - Bill Flewellyn - 31 - Hang 4 - Moyes Stinger - Toowoomba, Queensland

Vehicle tow during exhibition. Rope broke at a hundred feet. Dived in.

Hang gliding was so much simpler, saner, more fun before it decided that a rope break was actually a GOOD thing and Rooney had a keen intellect.

The rope broke. The glider dived in. The guy got killed. OK, let's try it a again with a rope that won't break.

[Steve Davy]

I can't totally figure out how this version of the Birrenator works or is disengaged.

The release lanyard is split at the release with one leg going to the shoulder strap the other to the nose. A small barrel (plastic tube and cotter pin) disengages the nose line.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, that makes sense. So then it would be known how the glider was blown off - Hewett Link, deliberate, Birrenator. My money's on C.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Jerry Furnell - 2013/11/13 01:45:43 UTC
Canungra

Sudden high line tension can happen aero towing too.

Aero is the towing flavor MOST conducive to sudden high line tension.

In big air at Dalby a few weeks ago I was behind a Dragonfly when it rocketed up in a strong thermic bubble, then I rocketed up (VG on half / Rev topless), but as I went to release...

Yes. As you WENT TO release. Notice how nobody driving a car or riding a bicycle talks about how he WENT TO hit the brakes when the kid ran out into the street or the truck backed out of the driveway.

...the Dragonfly rocketed down in the adjacent big sink. Him going down fast, me going up fast - thirty meters of line - pro release was very suddenly loaded and heavy to pull, but I managed.

Congratulations on managing to pry your bent pin piece of shit PRO release open after you got to it - asshole.

My glider pitched up big time with one hand off.

No...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...shit.

I quickly pulled in with everything I had...

You mean you quickly pulled BACK in after your glider pitched up big time with one hand off because you were too good to be flying with an AMATEUR release system with a keel attachment to trim the nose down and a basetube mounted actuator?

...to avoid the impending whip stall...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 17:26:52 UTC

Other thing I know: a lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand form a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad. It's a delusion. At least one second we have. It's more than enough to make a release and get back the hand on the bar.

...and got a bit of bank on the glider too, so it pitched over into a semi-side slip and I recovered it as I too flew into the huge hole (sink) that the Dragonfly had hit.

It all happened very quickly - one minute happily on tow - next minute, fighting to save the ship!

The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
by Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

Point is...

You don't have a fuckin' clue what the point is.

...that towing (ground or aero) can lead to a sudden unexpected high angle of attack.

Especially if you're totally fucking clueless and use total shit for equipment. No, wait...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1149
aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates

Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:08:32 UTC

Hey Tad.

Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.

It's 'cause your brain hasn't been trained well enough. Try taking some tandem Cone of Safety instructional flights with Dr. Trisa Tilletti.

I believe pulling in and banking is the best out from a whip stall situation.

Yeah, asshole. Let's talk about your BELIEFS and the best course of action AFTER you whipstall the glider. And let's totally ignore the fact that unless you're nice and high when you whipstall the glider it won't matter what you do.

I was told by a very experienced certified GA pilot/instructor that a banked delta wing is virtually tumble proof, better a side slip than a tumble - I'm no expert, but it seems right to my understanding of delta wing flight/aerodynamics.

Yeah - IF you have the altitude.

Hope this helps others who tow.

Sure. That'll help.

Did you kids all catch that? What you've BEEN doing is fighting to keep the glider level and in position when you're dealing with a difficult and potentially dangerous control situation. What you SHOULD BE doing is rolling away from the tow to reduce your chances of a whipstall and tumble.

Diev Hart - 2013/11/13 02:30:04 UTC

Jerry, why not release as soon as you saw the tug rocket up?(and bank it) if high enough....

- Hell, Diev... He was using one of those bent pin pro releases that everyone and his dog knows have...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...potentially lethal issues under load. So...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

...just how good an idea would it have been for him to try to release it under the kinds of loads you get whenever you stupidly stray out of the Cone of Safety the way he did?

- There's no fuckin' point to towing hang gliders in sled conditions. Our goal is to get these goddam gliders up in really nasty towing conditions which translate to really awesome soaring conditions.

We WANT to see tugs being kicked around and blasted up in front of us and we want to stay on tow as long as we're not locking out and we need the equipment that allows us to do it safely. That means a two point bridle with the proper trim point on the keel, a weak link in the upper half of the legal range on the glider and a heavier/legal weak link on the tug, a release that can handle the maximum possible load effortlessly that can be blown with both hands on the basetube in order to be able to safely abort the situations we can't handle without making them worse, and a tug pilot who knows what the fuck he's talking about and doing.

And if you don't have all that then don't fuckin' fly unless you enjoy rolling dice and get your rocks off by taking stupid risks in the most inherently dangerous flavor of flying that we do.

We DON'T want stupid bullshit like idiot fuckin' Jerry just described or THIS:

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Rooney Links that override the PILOTS' decisions to stay on tow and dump them off at random forcing emergency landings and multiple relaunches DO NOT increase the safety of the towing operation - they commonly crash gliders and occasionally injure and once in a while kill people.

But it's this know how and experience that make towing safe...

Except, of course...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...for those stupid enough to fly in thermal conditions.

...and why I scratch my head when I keep reading these reports of new H1/H2 students towing and having issues...there is just so much going on...for a new to flight student....is it really worth it?

Was it worth it for one of Kitty Hawk's Hang Four tandem aerotow instructors who didn't have a fuckin' clue what he was doing - while, by the way, feeding these Hang One and Two students the same crap he'd incorporated?

(For the student that doesn't even know what they are getting into, AND Is it fair to that same student?)

Shut the fuck up, Diev. You can count the number of people who understand hang glider towing on your fingers - and you are no way in hell ever gonna be close to being one of them.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Jerry Furnell - 2013/11/13 05:12:30 UTC

When I learnt to tow, the first twenty tows were in non-thermic air (early or late) on beginner to intermediate gliders only (even though I flew a topless).

Most beginners survive the learning curve because of good instruction.

There IS NO good instruction. If there were the good instructors would be involved in some of these discussions raising absolute hell about the global state of affairs and scum like Trisa, Davis, Rooney being in positions of influence and control.

Some by luck, and one or two will pay the price of inexperience.

Under good instruction luck isn't part of he equation and one learns by theory and gradually develops the muscle memory responses through experience to safely implement the theory.

Not all instructors or schools are equal. Most are good, a few are average, and one or two should be outlawed.

Have you checked the math on that statement.

I think this applies the world over.

Lake Wobegon anyway.

Most beginners have no idea whether their instructor is good or bad, the usual reason for choosing an instructor is because they are the closest/most convenient.

- They're all bad.

- When the students are no longer beginners they all think that their instructors are great because they will have learned whatever total crap their instructors have taught them.

- If you wanna do some real good name and rate the instructors/schools you consider, good, average, in serious need of shutting down and tell us the reasons behind your assessments.

Same applies to many other sports too - but air sports can kill you. Hopefully there are one or two people who read this forum prior to learning to fly who are smart enough to shop around before jumping in with the 'convenient' flight school.

That's a stupid statement. Prospective students, pretty much by definition, have zero understanding of what they're getting into. They can't shop around because they can't identify total crap when they hear it. If they buy a copy of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden they're gonna go with the operation that uses the lightest weak links.

We already know hard it is for the 'system' to root out a rotten instructor.

It's a system OF rotten instructors. Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Cloud 9, Matt Taber, Lockout Mountain, Towing Committee, SOPs, need I say more. Whenever an instructor kills someone he gets an Instructor of the Year or NAA Safety Award for the excellent work he's done in not killing more students.

Tom Lyon - 2013/11/13 07:27:26 UTC
Michigan

Diev Hart - 2013/11/13 02:30:04 UTC

...But it's this know how and experience that make towing safe....and why I scratch my head when I keep reading these reports of new H1/H2 students towing and having issues...there is just so much going on...for a new to flight student....is it really worth it? (For the student that doesn't even know what they are getting into, AND Is it fair to that same student?)

I have had similar thought. No doubt, towing can, and is, done safely nearly all the time.

BULLSHIT. It's virtually all being done on dangerous crap theory using dangerous crap equipment and the only reason it's not a total bloodbath is 'cause the deadly shit considered routine almost always happens high enough for people to get away with it.

But in transitioning over from flying sailplanes, towing is the one area that I'm just not quite as comfortable with in hang gliders.

Why do you think that is, Jackie? Anything to do with being able to release in an emergency situation without having to throw whatever control you have left to the winds and using certified and legal weak links that protect your plane from overload, never break, and aren't geared by total morons for use as emergency releases?

Having said that, I don't like winch towing in sailplanes, either. There have been so many accident over the years, even with experienced flight instructors. That very high attitude instantly becomes an extremely high angle of attack if towing power is removed early for any reason. It just happens so fast.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

Towing Aloft - 1998/01
---
A weak link is required that will not break needlessly in response to moderate thermals, or pilot inputs, yet will break at a low enough point to avoid disaster or excessive pilot panic.
---
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Have you told any of these Rooney Linking motherfuckers they're totally full of shit and deserve to be stood up against walls?

I'm a newly-minted H2, and I'm not in a hurry to tow.

Sounds to me like the only part of towing - sailplane or hang glider - you don't like is suddenly NOT towing.

Bob Knop - 2013/11/13 09:11:36 UTC
Holland

We do a lot off winch towing over here.
But with sailplane and also HG the main thing is to have a ,,level,, phase after leaving the ground, before assuming a steeper attitude.

With a sailplane, fer sure. But with a hang glider...

Jerry Furnell - 2013/11/13 01:45:43 UTC

Point is that towing (ground or aero) can lead to a sudden unexpected high angle of attack. I believe pulling in and banking is the best out from a whip stall situation.

...you always wanna be a little banked to one side or the other - just in case the focal point of your safe towing system kicks in.

Management of airspeed (AOA) is critical.

Just how well can you manage airspeed / angle of attack when some fucking douchebag like Davis or Russell...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

...is forcing you to fly on a loop of fishing line that breaks six times in a row in light morning conditions.

And be primed to release at any time, versus trying to save a bad situation.

Go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Mike Lake - 2013/11/13 13:15:20 UTC

Climbing under power is always going to result in a glider with a nose high attitude (relative to the horizon) if not it would not be climbing. The angle of attack remains exactly as the designers intended and is relevant to the airflow.

During a tow this nose high attitude is already there by default and can get even higher if the glider is subject to a gust a thermal or an increase in power.

In some situations this nose up attitude can be dangerous BUT ONLY WHEN COMBINED WITH A SUDDEN REMOVAL OF ALL POWER.

That's totally contrary to everything I've been taught.

It is not the nose high attitude that is a threat it is the COMBINATION of a nose high attitude AND a sudden removable of all power.

The glider will recover (or not) in exactly the same way as it would from any other manoeuvre resulting in an abnormally nose high and stalled situation.

I think people are digging too deep looking for a divergent glider or a mis-rigging issue. Tailless gliders can tuck if pushed hard enough (as said by others here) and a dangerously nose high attitude is achievable with any tension (note tension and not pressure) able to give a reasonable rate of climb.
Even experienced pilots are not immune and...

As was so graphically and conclusively demonstrated at Laurenland on the afternoon of 2013/02/02.

...despite popular belief, a 300 pound weak-link does not put a limit on these nose high situations.

If 300 doesn't work...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

...we should probably try 250, 225, 200... (with total disregard for far legal minimums, of course).

Therefore all must be done to avoid the sudden loss of power.

No. We should be putting a very low limit on the amount of power we're capable of suddenly losing.

A sudden loss of power can be due to a line break, a premature release, some other equipment failure, a weak-link break...

A weak link SUCCESS!

...or an automatic pitch limiting device.

Birrenator.

Most tow groups will rigorously try to avoid the first three but are happy...

...or forced...

...to include the last two by design, even though the disastrous results can...

...will...

...be exactly the same.

I would bet on one of the latter two being the culprit in this instance.
I doubt if the pilot released normally, flew ok for a few seconds and then deliberately whip-stalled his glider!

Let's wait until we see the official report prepared by Pat, Trisa, and Tim.

Bob Knop - 2013/11/13 18:54:47 UTC

We are trained to put the nose down and reduce AOA, when weak link breaks or loss of power.

Duh.

Otherwise it would be inherently unsafe.

It IS inherently unsafe. Get that through your skull and use it as a starting point.

Think angle of attack, sufficient airspeed means the dive recovery system will work.

Yeah. Dive recovery. It's a Fundamental Law of the Universe that if you do things right you're always gonna have enough air in which to recover. It'll be physically impossible for the ground to interrupt that process.

In a low energy situation because of lack of circulation the pitch stability system will not function.

The glider's stalled - it's not flying.

So when winchtowing, don't slow down (or climb too steep) too much.

And use a three hundred pound weak link to make damn sure you don't climb too steeply - for very long anyway.

It's the same with powered aircraft; as soon as the engine quits on takeoff...

That's a BAD thing - not at all like a weak link pop or a tug driver making a good decision in the interest of your safety.

...push the nose down (but you must have excess energy to do so= AOA or airspeed.)

Thanks Bob. I'll bet there are a lot of people towing who don't understand this.

Mike Lake - 2013/11/13 19:14:21 UTC

...as soon as the engine quits on takeoff push the nose down (but you must have excess energy to do so...)

...and of course hope you have enough height to recover!

Of course you will. It's in all the training manuals and courses...

Mitch teaches weak link break strategy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U


If you take this away that angle goes from there to now there and the... You're stalled. (Raises right forearm up to 72 degree angle.) You're stalled.
You know... You're plowing through the air.
And no longer can you...
So you immediately... When you lose this coforce you have to adjust the angle of attack, gain speed down...
'Cause you've got plenty of speed this way, right? 'Cause you're actually going up.
You're...
You bet. It's like a parachute. So what you have to do is establish and angle of attack such that when you're going down...
So... Immediately...
And it's not a STUFF... It's a good... Put...
Then you wait, gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and...
But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.

Just smoothly pull in, wait, gain some speed, push out and land. Pretty simple basic stuff.

Bob Flynn - 2013/11/13 19:36:29 UTC
San Diego

I'm glad to hear the pilot survived and will recover.

- Me too. It always makes it so much easier to avoid admitting and fixing problems when the pilot survives.
- We don't know shit like if or how well he will recover.

I know it must have been a truly scary if not terrifying event.

Go with terrifying. What have you got to lose?

Does anybody know if he was actually flying with a chute?

- Read the fuckin' thread before you ask stupid questions.

- Who the fuck cares whether or not he had a chute? If the whipstall had happened low the issue of the parachute would've been totally irrelevant. We need to be dealing with the whipstall and why it happened - or COULD HAVE happened. Hardly anybody's done shit about the Zack Marzec fatality and there's no doubt whatsoever about exactly why that one happened and what needs to be done to prevent a rerun.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Don Arsenault - 2013/11/13 20:40:33 UTC
Toronto

Mike Lake - 2013/11/13 13:15:20 UTC

Climbing under power is always going to result in a glider with a nose high attitude...

to all of this.

Yeah? So what do you have to say to THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JByP6Crvrx4

Mike Robertson

And we take off with this... We call it a weak link - many people would call it a fuse... And that fuse is all we need to tow us up. And if anything ever happened that got us overtensioned that would just break - and we'd be free flying, which is just what we like.

crap from your asshole instructor?

They should get rid of the keel attach point...

That's not a keel attachment point. It's not transmitting tension to the system. It's a Birrenator. It has no effect in normal operations. It only kicks in when you least want it to.

...and stick with the two stage chest release.

Bullshit. They only use...

The Mission Soaring Hang Gliding school provides professional training on state-of-the-art equipment at our dedicated training site at Tres Pinos (near Hollister, CA)... just south of the San Jose / San Francisco Bay Area.

...state-of-the-art equipment at their dedicated training site at Tres Pinos. If the two stage chest release were state-of-the-art equipment they'd be using it.

Whether or not it had anything to do with this accident or not, I just don't like the system they use.

Goddam right. Birrenators...



...HAVE killed people in the past and this last one is totally consistent with those scenarios. Get rid of the idiot piece of shit.

Just look at the release failure last year!

That wasn't a release failure. There was nothing wrong with the release and it's a good mechanism. That was a failure of the student to hook it up properly and a failure of the operation to check it and have a procedure to deal with a release failure. Yeah, the two stage is a much better piece of equipment for this application and more idiot resistant - but there's a weight and drag tradeoff involved.

I wish the pilot a full and speedy recovery!

Don't hold your breath.

So what does your asshole instructor have to say about this one and how come he's not participating in this discussion?

"Safety in not a word, it's a book."
Michael Robertson

Still too busy writing his book?

Tom Lyon - 2013/11/13 21:02:21 UTC

Bob Knop - 2013/11/13 18:54:47 UTC

We are trained to put the nose down and reduce AOA, when weak link breaks or loss of power.

Everybody is. Drilled into you by the instructor. Get that nose down instantly.

Who the fuck NEEDS to have this drilled in by an instructor? This is instinctive for everyone who makes it to the Hang 0.5 level.

Be prepared for it.

And make sure it always happens when you're high enough to deal with it.

Don't let it surprise you.

Don't worry about that. Everybody who's flown a Rooney Link more than three times is surprised when it DOESN'T happen.

But then, over time, see how many winch launch accidents...

There's no such thing as a winch launch ACCIDENT.

...occur with even with very experienced pilots.

Fuck very experienced pilots. Gimme a properly equipped Hang Two over five hundred hour pro toad any day of the week.

I know one who is a very safe pilot. I had flown with him and have great respect for him.

Undoubtedly too much.

He was involved in a winch accident that resulted in a fatality.

So he was driving the winch, right?

Everyone was shocked.

Shocked.

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03

Yesterday at Quest we lost our good friend, Zach Marzec, in a hang gliding accident. We are all in shock and heartbroken here and are all pulling together to support his girlfriend, Clara.

Shocked!

Even he couldn't understand how it happened.

That's undoubtedly WHY it happened.

So tragic.

Yeah. So how 'bout you telling us - for whom you have much less respect - what this one was and give us a shot at explaining how it happened?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?

So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.

Sometimes you can get better assessments from people whose incompetence and/or negligence...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

...weren't major factors in the disaster.

This is total bullshit. We've got this unnamed winch fatality that's supposed to be a total mystery and we're not talking about it and identifying the issues.

I'd say that winch launching can definitely be done safely...

Not by people who'd say that it can be definitely be done safely.

...but the margin for error has been completely removed. If a rope breaks under aerotow...

When was the last time you heard about a ROPE breaking under aerotow, motherfucker?

...the pilot may have a few seconds to get his/her wits together...

BULLSHIT. Any time anything happens that matters the pilot's got about one second max to start dealing with it.

...(although it's preferable if the appropriate response is totally automatic, of course).

Name some people who've graduated from ground skimming scooter tow who don't have bar stuff as a totally automatic instant response to stall or impending stall.

Where is there any indication...

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/11 18:22:43 UTC

I saw the nose fall, and the glider entered a near vertical dive. It looked to me like the sail was positively loaded and I thought things might work out OK. But then the nose tucked and the glider tumbled.

...that this guy didn't react to the stall appropriately?

With winch launching, it's not like that.

Bullshit. At low tow angles the glider doesn't have a fuckin' clue whether it's hooked up to a tug or a winch. And, furthermore, a winch operator is in a lot better position to regulate tension than a tug driver is.

The slightest delay in a response can be catastrophic...

And there's no fuckin' way that a pilot who responds appropriately in the blink of an eye can get scratched. It's in the training manual. It's just in slope launching that a glider can get overwhelmed by a gust, thermal, dust devil...

...and I would submit that this is because the high attitude instantly becomes a high angle of attack when power is lost.

Bullshit. If there was the slightest bit of validity...

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."

...to that argument then how could a weak link be the focal point of a safe towing system?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/13 22:13:51 UTC

Don Arsenault - 2013/11/13 20:40:33 UTC

They should get rid of the keel attach point...

This tow operation uses a harness attach point.

Yes, for tow tension transmission. And a keel attachment point for the insane autorelease device these total fucking morons...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7066
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Peter Birren - 2009/05/10 01:33:31 UTC

If you want a truly foolproof release, it's got to be one that eliminates the pilot from the equation with a release that operates automatically.

...use to eliminate the pilot from the equation.

Greg Laabs - 2013/11/13 22:17:08 UTC

He was flying with a chute. As my report said, we can't be sure why he didn't pull his chute, although most speculation pointed to simple panic.

We're all OK speculating that he whipstalled and tumbled because he was too clueless to stuff the bar immediately but it's a total mystery as to why he didn't get his parachute out when he was tumbling and breaking up.

His chute pouch was open when we got to him, but it was unclear if he had opened it himself or if that just happened because of the impact or in-air trauma.

- If the pins were out that would indicate that it was open as a result of the handle being pulled.
- Had his Birrenator been disengaged?

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/13 22:38:50 UTC

They've used harness-attach (two point attach, on either side of your hips) in all the years I've flown there.

ONE point. Pilot only. And, by the way, was the bridle anchored to the harness at his hips or were the port and starboard halves routed through guides and extended to the carabiner? Would the former installation be two point and the latter one point?

No keel attach. There is a string to the nose...

Yes, that's what he was talking about.

...but it's part of an autorelease...

...suicide...

...system rather than a tow point.

Did you wanna address the issue of what's gonna happen to the glider when that thing works?

I don't know what change was made after Lynn's incident this summer.

Why not? Didn't you read Mission's detailed report?

I'm still flying with the same system I've used for years.

Hard to beat state-of-the-art.

I'll ask about this for sure the next time I'm out there.

Why should you hafta ask? These motherfuckers almost killed that guy. If it was in part due to this state-of-the-art equipment they've been using for a decade or two how come they're making changes and haven't put out an advisory?

And everyone and his dog knows about this one and there've been several long hot-button discussions about it on the forums. So how come there's been absolutely nothing in the magazine? Not enough room after all the crap about what great sports these are and what great people we have running things?

Maybe they're phasing out the 3-loop release in favor of a two-loop release (what I have)?

What weak link are you using, why are you using that rating, and how much pull does this piece of shit require to blow at weak link tension?

Mike Lake - 2013/11/13 22:47:36 UTC

Unless we are discussing the cosmetics of the various tow configurations, and we are not we are discussing the flying qualities, please use one point (pilot only) and two point (pilot and glider). Two and three point is a complete nonsense and their use only serves to confuse.

It is quite refreshing that at least some here can agree that a sudden removable of all power (usually a weak-link break) can be dangerous.

Yeah, people are really painting themselves into corners on this one.

Perhaps the myth...

...damnable lie...

...that this is no more than an inconvenience, a non event, no big deal, might at least be open to question.

Good time to call out Davis and Rooney and drive stakes through whatever they're using for hearts.

Greg Laabs - 2013/11/13 23:07:45 UTC

Joel DeWitt - 2013/11/13 22:38:50 UTC

Maybe they're phasing out the 3-loop release in favor of a two-loop release (what I have)?

Ah ha, that sounds familiar and may be what he told me. My main takeaway was a 3 changing to a 2, as unhelpful is that is

I'd go with that. Nobody in the hang gliding industry has ever missed an opportunity to implement more dangerous crappier equipment in lieu of addressing the actual problems.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/14 02:23:53 UTC

I spoke with the operator for a while about this incident.

Has he got a name? Why does he need his identity protected?

Here are some points:

1) The injured pilot is still in the hospital, under care for his injuries.

Big surprise.

2) The pilot had about 3 hours of flight experience, without incident. He had towed fine the day before.

So why do you think he shoved the bar out in response to coming off tow?

3) The pilot released ok after towing at about 800 feet altitude.

We know that HE released?

Being a new pilot he was foot launching...

Yeah, being a NEW pilot Mission forces him to use a launch method that a lot of advanced pilots never use and wouldn't with guns to their heads.

...so his AOA on tow wasn't that extreme.

Oh. So your angle of attack is a function of whether you foot or dolly launched. And it's less extreme if you foot launch. That would help explain the Zack Marzec incident. And at eight hundred feet the glider still remembers how you launched and maintains its angle of attack accordingly.

4) The problem occurred after release...

Yeah, we know that. How long after?

And what's your source? According to Greg none of the witnesses were within fifteen hundred feet and it would be a lot more convenient for Mission if this had nothing to do with the tow and their student just suddenly went insane.

...his nose popped up and he whipstalled back onto his tail. It sounded like he inverted. Both leading edges broke but fortunately were intact from the crossbars to the nose which slowed his descent at about the rate of old parachutes - which is why his injuries didn't kill him.

Bullshit. Hang gliders never used parachutes which set them down abruptly enough to break pelvises and require helicopters.

5) I personally know both the winch operator and the site operator.

And being a good friend of theirs you're not identifying them.

One is a safety officer at another site...

Kagel? Mount Woodside?

...the other has a long history of being extremely safety conscious and is actually recognized nationally for that.

But we're not gonna let him be actually nationally recognized for this. And it's a bloody shame that we don't have the benefit of someone actually recognized nationally for being safety conscious participating in this discussion - or the one about the Lin Lyons incident at his operation less than five months ago. People actually recognized nationally for being safety conscious are MUCH too important to be squandering their time with us muppets.

They have towed well over 10000 times there safely.

Bullshit. Just 'cause people routinely get away with doing stupid dangerous shit and come out smelling like roses doesn't mean they're towing safely. There have been untold tens of thousands of pro toads launching with Rooney Links in thermal conditions who have had no problem whatsoever (outside of a bit of inconvenience every third flight) who all would've been totally fucking dead if they'd been plugged into the Zack Marzec scenario.

A flight completed with a partially engaged carabiner was not a safe flight. And a tow flight with a Birrenator can kill you just as dead as a flight with a partially engaged carabiner that doesn't stay partially engaged.

6) The glider although used was inspected recently.

All gliders are used before they're shipped.

7) There was nothing unusual or challenging about the weather conditions at the time of the accident.

This wasn't an accident.

So this unfortunately points to pilot error.

ALL reports from instructors and tow operators unfortunately point to pilot error - and nothing else.

Hopefully he will decide to fly again one day.

- I guess we're not talking about a speedy recovery then - are we?
- If this were indeed just pilot error why are you hoping he will decide to fly again one day?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/14 03:14:49 UTC

If that is all true then We have to ask the pilot > What to f#ck happened ?

Or we could just watch the video.

Did he decide it was time to do a loop ? MK4s don't just stand on their tails from a push-out at normal speeds. There is something that is not being said or asked .

I think you can bet the farm on it.

Seems the air conditions were OK ? Maybe a wave rotor?

Or an invisible dust devil. We've had a big problem with those at tow operations this year.

s*** happens and young pilots are often deer in the headlights

I missed the part where he was identified as a YOUNG pilot - asshole.

I've had wave rotor try to rip my arms out of my shoulders. That could easily flip a young pilot.

Like Zack Marzec - but not an old pilot like Lin Lyons.

Just throwing s*** out there...

Yeah Dave, you've never been the least bit shy about just throwing s*** out there.

...because what I'm hearing does not add up.

Not in the least.

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/11/14 03:33:14 UTC

I was reflecting back upon my flights when I had around three hours accumulated. I vaguely recall times when I had brain farts, as you still don't have the experience to make it just motor control. Maybe he had a brain fart and pushed out instead of pulled in.

Bullshit. Pilots from conventional aviation sometimes go the wrong way for pitch control on the first lesson or two. But not beyond that - and this guy didn't have a conventional aviation background or we'd have heard about it.

Or maybe he dove and zoomed before the whipstall.

I totally doubt that.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/14 03:55:21 UTC

Yeah , We had a h2 practicing stalls . He seemed to have missed the part about pushing out slowly and just whipped it up to a whip stall. That was the same day the pilot tumbled his U2 doing whipstalls. Some skill is required!

Steve Morris - 2013/11/14 16:09:17 UTC

Anyone know how long "after release" before "the problem occurred"? Was the glider ever in trimmed stable flight before "the problem occurred"? I can't tell from this information if the incident was related to the tow or not.

No, we can't. And the fact that we can't should be setting off some alarm bells.

Brian Scharp - 2013/11/14 16:45:53 UTC

Is the camera in the pilot's possession? The video could provide answers to many questions for everyone.

It would almost certainly show us exactly what happened and why.

Just curious.

Are you curious as to why we have reports from Mission patrons but nothing more from Mission itself than we did after Lin Lyons?