I would like to point out that many times there is an option that most pilots don't seem to understand. If we can pull our selves up to the top of the control bar apex , hang on and break as much of the glider before we hit the ground we can walk away from a very hard hit. This should be instinct . When we have lost control of the wing we must use it as a crumple zone. Break tubing instead of bones.
Sorry Dave, not interested in discussions about what we should be doing after we've lost control of the wing. I'm just way more into not losing and regaining control of the wing.
Some times this is not an option due to position such as hanging of the wing or the force of a spin. But if at all possible pull your butt up and make the glider take it.
It's worked for me 5 times. All situations that could have killed me but quick reaction made them walk away incidents.
Let us know how the sixth one goes. Try to get it on video.
Mike Lake - 2013/11/15 00:42:31 UTC
Sound advice but I think there is a need to backtrack a bit and not be too concerned about what happened after the event. Discussing a pilot's crash technique, their ability to open a parachute or whip-stall recovery procedure is all very well but THE question must be why the whip-stall?
The pilot is being towed the next moment he is upside-down. How much deeper must one look to visualise what could have happened?
There could be some mis-rigging issue but as he managed to climb to a few hundred feet, apparently ok, this is unlikely (not impossible, unlikely).
He could have released normally, flown on normally for a second or two then, once in a perfectly normal flying mode, decided to perform some manoeuvre so severe that his glider whip-stalls. All in the space of a few seconds, possible but unlikely.
Or ...
The glider is climbing and relative to the horizon its nose is high. This is normal and true for every flight.
There is a surge of some kind and the nose becomes higher still, this is also normal and a pilot's reaction is to pull in to ride it out.
That's not what you want to do...
Bob Knop - 2013/11/13 09:11:36 UTC
And be primed to release at any time, versus trying to save a bad situation.
That would constitute trying to save a bad situation.
At this point the worst thing that can happen is the glider becomes detached from the tow force (most usually a weak-link).
Or a good decision made in the interest of your safety.
Even if the glider has some energy its nose is still pointing skyward and a pilot trying to recover will find he is already pulling in with nowhere to go!
Lots of things have to line up and the timing must be unlucky but unfortunately this is the most likely scenario and why I make such a fuss about the dangers of becoming detached from the tow force when you don't want to.
Richard Palmon - 2013/11/15 02:04:07 UTC
Mountain House, California
Speculation, perception, loyalty...? The USHGA and businesses along with paragliding. Is based on the emotions of speculation, perception, and loyalty. These feelings are comforting and give a sense of power. I ask the question! Does perception, speculation and loyalty define the truth? This is a great thread...I know MSC has done everything to make flying safer, funner and easier! It's easy to be blinded by economics and reputation. What are the facts and reality. Flying is dynamic. Like a naval ship...everything is a guess. You only have to be correct! 1 out of a 360 degree guess.
We are all part of making flight a reality for humanity. Do we want to base learning on facts and skill building...or speculation, marketing, and perception?
Skills thrill! Thrills kills!
We need to remove speculation, perception, and loyalty...in order to find the facts and reality.
Think maybe you could spend about ten hours not taking any more of whatever you were taking and then rewrite that?
One hand is removed from the base tube when releasing
Yeah, it's been that way ever since the beginning of the Eighties when Donnell Hewett decided that there was no safety advantage to being able to keep both hands on the basetube at all times.
Maybe he missed the base tube when returning the hand back to the base tube.
No. Nobody's ever missed the basetube when after releasing - or trying to. The damage is done the instant the hand comes off. Or damage continues to be done because the glider jockey has realized that that the consequences of taking a hand off to release are gonna be worse than staying on tow.
I talked also to the...
...still anonymous...
...tow operator and he clarified the pilot released near the end of the tow arc (above the second cattle water trough on the left).
Do thank him for me - but I'd prefer seeing the fuckin' video to clarify things.
Because he was around eight hundred feet one can deduce he was not pushing out throughout the climb of the tow since doing so would have resulting in a higher altitude.
So why after three hours airtime is this guy only getting about half the altitude he should be?
The conditions were not thermic and the winds were fairly light (between five and ten mph).
The glider wires were intact and the nose wire was still attached to the nose plate.
Wow! Wills Wing CAN get things right every once in a while!
My own personal experience with luft lines being tucked under battens never resulted in unreasonable climb rates.
My (rather extensive) experience with hooking luff lines under batten ends is that you don't notice anything wrong until you've started breaking down the glider at the end of the day.
I agree it was likely pilot error and not equipment failure and most definitely not tow operator or lack of proper instruction.
Bullshit.
- You've titled this post:
One hand is removed from the base tube when releasing
Releases that require a hand to be removed from the basetube...
Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50
Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.
...stink on ice. They're pretty much useless in emergencies and if you fly enough people enough times on one you WILL eventually kill someone who would've been fine if the job had been done right.
- Some degree of pilot error is pretty much always an element of a serious incident. But that pilot error is pretty much always a consequence of crappy instruction - especially at the student level.
- PROPER instruction includes:
-- not foot launching a flyer in a dolly friendly environment
-- telling the student that it is not acceptable to go up on a release that requires a hand to come off the basetube
- Any motherfucker who installs a Birrenator (a word now recognized by Google) in a tow system deserves to be stood up in front of a fuckin' wall.
The pilot had been repeatedly informed about pulling-in in the advent of a weak-link breaking and/or after releasing.
Had the pilot been informed that pulling in in the advent of a weak link blow is no guarantee of survival?
However the pilot might have been a tad bit less attentive to pulling in after the prior days six successful tows. The pilot had already somewhere between four to six days under tow prior to the accident.
None the less the glider would zoom if not constrained after releasing.
- Bullshit. The glider stops zooming after releasing and starts dealing with a dramatically increased angle of attack.
- Was the driver in the habit of easing up on the tension a bit just prior to top-out?
One's ability to restrain zooming from happening is degraded by the fact that to release you are taking one hand off the base tube.
Lemme rephrase that for you:
One's ability to safely control the glider during and after release is degraded by using shit state-of-the-art equipment.
To minimize turning on release since there is only one hand on the base tube and the wing is under increased tension many pilots utilize their forearms for added leverage and support to brace their bodies from swaying to the side of the one arm pulling in.
- REAL *PILOTS* don't go up with shit equipment.
- How do you think that's gonna work in a serious lockout emergency?
Ultimately most of this is conjecture without further clarification from either the pilot or the video footage since he was too far from any eyewitness for there to be a clear idea of the actions that led to the whip stall and tumble.
So how's the tow operator able to make definitive statements about what happened?
Paul Walsh - 2013/11/15 18:51:51 UTC
Richard Palmon - 2013/11/15 02:04:07 UTC
Speculation, perception, loyalty....
W T F are you talking about?
My sentiments precisely.
Please clarify in normal speak for those of us less educated in the telepathic stuff.
Those of us not fucked up on anything from the same batch of defective acid.
You clearly have SOMETHING to say so please take a deep breath and try again.
Not sure that's an appropriate use of the word "clearly".
2013/11/15 18:54:13 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
You don't get to weigh in on this one, Paul.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/11/16 01:04:23 UTC
Mike Lake - 2013/11/15 00:42:31 UTC
Sound advice but I think there is a need to backtrack a bit and not be too concerned about what happened after the event...
Sounds like you have an issue with the weakness of weak links?
Anybody with a functional brain has an issue with the weakness of weak links.
I agree there is good and bad and a lot to understand.
Especially by you.
Good for an other thread.
Good for this thread. Good for damn near any towing thread until we:
- start using them to protect against overload
- stop trying to use them for anything else
- get some heads on pikes
DAMN! I knew that. Got pretty sick the past couple of days and tired, overwhelmed, sloppy, not clicking on all cylinders. Meant to go back and check but...
I have an issue with becoming dumped from the tow when I don't want to and it might kill me. The weak-link (strength) is the major culprit as far as I am concerned because we introduce it deliberately and at the same time recognise that (say) a line break is bad for you, even though the outcome is the same.
I'm not sure if you are suggesting that I am straying off topic but even if this incident turns out to be nothing like my speculative scenario it remains the most likely cause of a pitch up and stall for a tow pilot. This must be as on topic as most of the posts on this thread.
If you are not suggesting that I am straying off topic then please forgive my misinterpretation and ignore those bits.
Here lies the double edged sword. The Aerotow weaklink is designed to break before a glider can lockout in roll. This usually is a good thing. Roll lockouts can happen so abruply that a pilot can not release before the situtation goes out of control.
Huge pitch ups are very rare in my experience. But it is true that having a weaklink break during a pitch up close to the ground is a terrible situation. It puts us in a hammmer head stall needing lots of alitutude to recover. This is why we should fight pitch-ups. I think we have much greater control of the pitch axis then the roll axis.
I believe stronger weak-links would greatly increase the number of roll lockouts which would create many more serious accidents.
Nope.
I would be delighted to see a weak-link thread just as long as it remains factual, friendly, doesn't accuse people of trolling for not having a mainstream point of view and doesn't turn into a "f***-off-you-weekender-we-know-best-'cos-we-get-paid-to-ferry-people-into-the-sky-and-you-others-can't-possibly-know-s***".
With Rooney Banned from and Davis not terribly popular on The Jack Show, Jack unable to open his asshole mouth...
OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!
I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???
...in the wake of the Zack Marzec fatality, and a lot of really damaging quotes from this thread our chances are looking the best they've ever been.
Also it must be in no way responsible for starting World War III.
It's gonna take World War III. And when it's over there are gonna be a lot of sleazebags who really need to be dealt with - permanently.
There was a comment that this is where I deployed my parachute earlier this year. First, I was not at the field a week ago, and did not see the crash. However, having had some experience with crashing, I do have a comment or two.
Not interested in the crashes. They were byproducts of what went wrong with the tows. In your case the problems were:
- your failure to properly connect the release
- Mission's failure to have systems for:
-- checking the connection before launching students
-- the emergency dumping of tow tension
One description said that it took six seconds for the crash to occur.
And about one for the whipstall to occur.
And that the pilot might have been up around six hundred feet. I was far more fortunate. I was about a thousand feet and had more time.
Yeah. We saw the video.
I descended more than six hundred feet before my parachute deployed. In addition, I wasn't tumbling. Clearly a parachute would have been nice in this case, but I really think he didn't have time. Also, tumbling, the situation was likely too confused to provide him time to do that. I think many of us have seen the whip stall video:
Once the tumble starts, it appears that it's not fixable. It's way faster than I'd thought.
Yeah. That's why we need to not have the whipstalls that progress into tumbles.
I think he's been flying for a year or two, probably working on his Hang Two.
Why does somebody need to be working for a year or two to get a Hang Two? I got mine in an extended holiday weekend.
...does short pack his glider so he can take it with him - he's a fairly young long haul truck driver.
Not for a while he won't be.
(His cab is till parked at the training field.) When the sky-divers, who also use the field, told me, my first thought was that since he does short-pack his glider, maybe he didn't set it up correctly.
A very special error that only shows up when the glider comes off tow.
However, from what I was told yesterday, and reading the description, I think that's less likely the cause.
As when I crashed, because of a stupid...
...human...
...mistake I made, there is again some effort to blame the tow operator.
Well let's be very careful to keep his identity a secret then.
The truth is, I'm still not over the crash, I'm now using the cart to launch...
As EVERYONE at that operation should be.
...but have not held onto the tow long enough to get as high as I did several times before my crash. However, I still prefer to have Harold tow me if I'm going to tow.
So what's Harold doing different from what he was when you almost got killed?
Both Harold and Pat do that well...
So what's Harold and Pat doing different from what they were when you almost got killed?
...intently watching the flyer being towed, and releasing pressure when the flyer is in trouble.
- Releasing PRESSURE from WHAT? The winch trailer tires?
- Is releasing PRESSURE always the right call when the flyer's in trouble? Sounds to me like Tumble Guy was doing fine as long as he had pressure.
My personal concern is not about their ability, but about what happened to me.
What happened to you is a reflection of their abilities - as instructors and tow operators.
There was a comment about taking a parachute clinic.
Fuck it.
Although I don't think it would have helped in this case, it's a really good thing to do.
Yeah, if you're planning on doing a lot of stupid shit in the course of your hang gliding career. Otherwise they're colossal wastes of time and resources. You'll get a lot more bang for your buck taking clinics on how to not get into situations in which a parachute deployment is required.
Part of the reason I'm still around and flying is that I had just taken the clinic.
Pretty much all of the reason you're a viral video star is because you went to a parachute clinic instead of a release connecting clinic.
Making sure that participants have their hook knife tied to the harness, and know how well they work, should also be part of the clinic.
They work great - until you're in a situation in which you're gonna die if you don't get off tow before thirty seconds have elapsed.
As should a discussion of when to use a parachute, and or hook knife, and when not to use one.
Stuff it.
When towing, most of us push out some, to get extra height.
Yeah, that's the idea.
This might be a drawback of a static tow, as compared to an aero tow - you have a limited time under tow, and there's an understandable tendency to try to get as high as you can.
Duh.
In fact, yesterday I had the weak-link break (again) but I wasn't towing as aggressively.
- One of those weak links that protects your glider from overload? Or one that keeps you from getting into too much trouble?
- So you've had at least two weak link pops - one under normal tow tension the other under subnormal tension. Tell your Mission buddies to go fuck themselves.
An interesting discussion might center around how much to push out when towing.
Yeah, let's not discuss towing for max gain - let's discuss towing in a manner to avoid incurring the wrath of our fishing line.
The problem with weak-link line is that it gets weaker with use, and breaking is not at all unusual.
The problem is that you're being taught by and towing with total fucking douchebags.
So, is the safety that the weak-link provides...
The weak link doesn't provide safety. It keeps the tow tension from exceeding a predetermined limit - and, whatever you determine for that limit, you can die as a consequence of the weak link doing it's job.
...greater than the risk of a tumble when it breaks unexpectedly worth it?
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... Tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
It might be of some value to replace all of the weak-link line on a regular basis, even if not broken.
To what target strength?
I don't know what the appropriate interval should be though.
- Mission only uses state-of-the-art towing equipment - so how come they didn't teach you what the appropriate interval should be? (Ten tows or three months - whichever comes first. That'll ensure that the weak link performs in accordance with your expectations.)
- Fuckin' morons.
Some other comments: "NOBODY should have a hang loop that could slip from the correct position, towing or not." True, but:
- (a) That wasn't the problem here, or in any of the tumble videos that I've seen.
- (b) In addition, I'm not sure that I want the sharp edges of a hose clamp anywhere near the fabric of my wing, whether flying or packed.
- (c) I've not seen a hang loop slip.
They don't. Hang glider people are all experts on solving totally imaginary problems and totally suck at solving real ones.
The ~red link is a good read though.
Take stuff from red with a block of salt.
"They should get rid of the keel attach point, and stick with the two stage chest release. Whether or not it had anything to do with this accident or not, I just don't like the system they use. Just look at the release failure last year". That would be me. And it was because I did the link incorrectly.
It's not a fuckin' LINK - it's a fuckin' RELEASE. I'd so love to live in a world in which assholes incapable of learning the appropriate one and two syllable terms for the shit we're dealing with had their ratings and instructor certifications revoked.
They now use a two-stage, not a three-stage release, so, if you have a new link, it's not a problem. I still use the three-stage release...
These are two and three STRING (or RING) RELEASES - not two or three STAGE LINKS.
...but you can bet that I'm really careful attaching it.
That's OK. You went to a parachute clinic in the time you could've learned to be really careful attaching it - so things worked out equally well.
Also, it's not a keel attachment, but a hip attachment. And, when there's sufficient wear on my three-stage link, the next one will undoubtedly be a two-stage release.
Good job, Lin. And don't ask yourself why other operations have been using three-strings for decades.
"Was the pilot every flying normally before the whip-stall?" Again, I wasn't there, but my reading is that the release triggered the stall.
So...
- What's your take on THIS:
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
comment from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney?
One comment said six another eight hundred feet. In my experience, more often than not, there's some stall and dive when releasing.
That's odd. When I release my airspeed increases and I start climbing faster.
- By your reading who triggered the release: the victim or the Birrenator?
Also, if he'd been clawing for altitude, it's quite possible that a weak-link break could be involved.
- Oh. So you're saying a weak link break could've killed this motherfucker. But nobody really understands what went wrong with Zack Marzec's flight.
- So what do the douchebags at Mission have to say on the issue?
- So he only made it to six to eight hundred feet but he might have been clawing of altitude - all at once in the final two seconds before he came off tow.
Seeing the video would be interesting. And enlightening.
And extremely legally sensitive.
I do hope it's posted.
Since there's no criminal investigation going on with this one Pat's probably bought it an swallowed it already.
"That a Tuck will result in a Tumble unless corrective action in the form of getting as much weight as far forward as possible is taken immediately. That pulling in while the glider is nosing down may seem counter-intuitive but is the corrective action required in this scenario."
I'd be interested in why pulling in is the correct action.
It's not. Push out as hard as you can.
And, for that matter, a description of all irregular actions, why they occur, and what is the appropriate corrective action.
Thanks for chiming in here Lin. You should be towing at trim, NOT pushing out.
After you've gotten a bit of air under you, you should be maxing out your climb.
That may be part of the problem with the recent accident there.
No.
Mike Lake - 2013/11/18 23:27:35 UTC
Lin Lyons - 2013/11/18 18:30:29 UTC
That would be me. And it was because I did the link incorrectly. They now use a two-stage, not a three-stage release, so, if you have a new link, it's not a problem. I still use the three-stage release but you can bet that I'm really careful attaching it. Also, it's not a keel attachment, but a hip attachment. And, when there's sufficient wear on my three-stage link, the next one will undoubtedly be a two-stage release.
The above is a good example of why I go on (and on and on) about using the correct (or at least consistent) terminology.
"They should get rid of the keel attach point, and stick with the two stage chest release."
Now I interpret "two stage chest release" as towing from the body only, one point of thrust no attachment to the keel. An under/over system. I think this is what the poster intended. (Please confirm psilyguy.)
Lin interpreted the above as something to do with the number of strings on a 2/3/4 string release and seems to miss the whole purpose of a keel attachment, two point, pilot AND glider system.
There are also references to "tow pressure". In this instance it actually works because you could say you apply "pressure" to the mechanism that brakes the drum. However in all other instances the use of 'pressure' is nonsense because we don't normally squeeze or push rope, we pull it, so the correct term is 'tension'.
Fuck "pressure" in all circumstances. Even when hydraulic pressure is being used to regulate braking resistance or winch power what's going to the glider is tension. And I'm so fucking sick of the near universal application of that term.
Sorry to go on again and everyone please feel free to correct mistakes in my sometimes dyslexic posts.
It might be of some value to replace all of the weak-link line on a regular basis, even if not broken. I don't know what the appropriate interval should be though._
There is a widespread belief that the weaker the weak-link the better.
Perfectly true - for the asshole on the Dragonfly.
If this is the case then replacing a weak-link (one weakened by age/use) with a stronger one on a regular basis would actually DECREASE safety.
Nope. A single loop of 130 pound Greenspot installed on one end of a bridle with the knot hidden from the main tension is the sweet spot. Anything heavier and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney will be visiting you in the hospital. Anything lighter and the situation becomes manageable - sometimes fatally so.
As daft as that sounds this is the only logical conclusion if you concur with the weaker the better.
This was determined by a physics professor. How could anyone NOT concur with it?
The sad truth is once you get past the point where a weak-link can get you a decent climb rate you are already in pitch up/stall territory.
Once you get to the point where the weak link can get you off the ground.
Having said that it must be remembered that a tuck & tumble is an extreme consequence and highly unusual, or we would be running out of tow pilots about now.
Not as highly unusual as a weak link increasing the safety of the towing operation.
Somewhere between a mild nose down and a full on dive recovery is the norm and in nearly all instances the pilot misses the ground.
I'd be interested in why pulling in is the correct action. And, for that matter, a description of all irregular actions, why they occur, and what is the appropriate corrective action.
I'm surprised this stuff was not drummed into Linlyons on week one of his lessons!
I'm surprised nobody's staked any of those mission assholes to ant hills yet.
Referring to you Linlyons as a 'third party' is not intended to be impolite.
Who give's a flying fuck? We've busted ass to try to get through to him and where are we?
Don Arsenault - 2013/11/18 23:58:30 UTC
Yes, I mean two stage chest release (Koch style), pilot only.
Two point - 'cause the Koch has two ends that you connect to the harness.
nice work adding to the speculation and miss information PUD
Nice work on the English language - CANUCK.
the reference to tow pressure is because this system uses a hydraulic motor (toyota truck engine driving hydraulic pump, driving a hydraulic motor) and the tow opporator runs the system by hydraulic pressure
There are THREE previous references to tow PRESSURE in this thread:
Tim Dyer - 2013/11/11 18:39:41 UTC
tow pressure too high?
Phil - 2013/11/12 12:53:12 UTC
The pressure from the tow might overcome the exaggerated reflex until the pilot released, then... pow!
Lin Lyons - 2013/11/18 18:30:29 UTC
Both Harold and Pat do that well, intently watching the flier being towed, and releasing pressure when the flier is in trouble.
All of them are inappropriate, two of them extremely so.
This is not a payout winch, so it does not use a brake to limit payout speed
Who gives a flying fuck? We've had two extremely serious incidents here less than five months apart - one because tension couldn't be dumped, the other occurring when it was. Tell me how the manner in which the tows were powered matters.
No one tows from the chest...
Except, of course, the people who tow from the chest.
...everyone tows from around the hip area depending on harness, can be leg loops or where harness mains attach to harness
And this is a significant element of information with respect to either situation how?
There is no keel tow point...
Yeah. We know.
...there is a line from release that attaches to nose to release glider if angle to tow line gets too extreme
Too extreme to WHAT - asshole? What's a good angle to have a Birrenator kick in, kill your thrust, and have your angle of attack sent through the ceiling?
-This did not work for mr lyons as it was his release that was not releasing
So how well did the other end do at dumping tension? Which is worse: having a plan to release but fucking up the connection or having no plan whatsoever to begin with?
They do not use an over/under
Right. An over/under isn't considered state-of-the-art equipment at Mission.
you run tow line above the control bar for foot launch, this is for newer students...
'Cause it's easier and safer?
...and everyone knows it will limit the height
AND more efficient! Really gotta love this state-of-the-art equipment.
more experience and you tow off the cart with line under control bar
Total bullshit operation.
On this system its generally accepted you get a few hundred more feet towing off cart
The way it's generally accepted that it's a good thing to have your Birrenator kick in when the angle to the towline gets too extreme?
but go ahead and continue to comment on others incorrect speculations....thats always useful
Look, motherfucker...
- The official report from Mission is totally nonexistent - as is the one on Lin Lyons.
- ANY discussion on ANY incident is a helluva a lot more useful than NO discussion.
-- No new ways for people to kill themselves are being invented so if we pick a possible scenario for the current one out of the list of Golden Oldies that doesn't pan out discussion participants will still be better off.
-- When Rooney caliber shits go on the record they flatly contradict previous statement and we can use the catalogue to marginalize them
-- When you've had USHGA marketing the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden for over a decade and a half there's really not much point in getting real bent out of shape about misinformation being injected into an incident discussion.
Don Arsenault - 2013/11/19 00:28:54 UTC
How is the pilot doing anyway? Anyone in contact with them?
What? Did he hit hard enough to break in two?
Mike Lake - 2013/11/19 01:29:41 UTC UTC
Doug Doerfler - 2013/11/19 00:06:12 UTC
nice work adding to the speculation and miss information PUD
You're welcome but I suspect it was not meant as a compliment.
If it had been I'd have taken it as an insult.
There's nothing wrong with speculation or any opportunity to discuss accidents/incidents how they happen and how they might be avoided in the future.
As long as you don't identify the actual causes, I suppose.
I am not sure if you regard my post(s) as mis information or the fact I was commenting (and think I am propagating) other posters' mis information.
I thought I was correcting some general stuff in a vain attempt to be helpful.
And you expected a positive response for your efforts?
the reference to tow pressure is because this system uses a hydraulic motor (toyota truck engine driving hydraulic pump, driving a hydraulic motor) and the tow opporator runs the system by hydraulic pressure
I did say:
In this instance it actually works because you could say you apply "pressure" to the mechanism that brakes the drum.
I could have added "or any other device hydraulic or otherwise that the winch operator uses to increases/decreases the rotation of a drum or other rope carrying equipment that might use levers pedals or some hydraulic connectivity, be it powered, un-powered, electrical or mechanical in order to increase/reduce the tension on the line" but that would be a bit verbose.
Ask him why Lin references a release as a link.
I'm sure you know what I was getting at. In aerotow, for example, although often used I can see no use for the term 'pressure' when referring to the towline etc., 'pressure' being a nonsense and the exact opposite of the correct term.
Like referring to the weak link as the focal point of a safe towing system.
No one tows from the chest, everyone tows from around the hip area depending on harness, can be leg loops or where harness mains attach to harness
If you mean no one as in no one at the tow site in question then this might well be the case, if you mean no one as in no one, nowhere, ever, then there are hundreds of tow pilots using this method all the time, including me.
I do understand this minor ambiguity, it's so easy I do it myself all the time as you quite rightly pointed out.
There is no keel tow point...
Thanks for clearing that up. The beauty of a forum is that it can...
...could...
...be a nice friendly place to discus things and correct other people's misunderstandings or have your own misunderstandings corrected. I'm delighted you find this useful.
Dan Johnson - 2013/11/19 01:36:57 UTC
I thought "Miss Information" was the title of the secret class all the girls in sixth grade attend, but then I'm just being a semantic prick with no additional information to add.
Mike Lake - 2013/11/19 01:41:15 UTC
Corrected. Thanks (and I mean that).
Dan Johnson - 2013/11/19 01:45:34 UTC
Wasn't your mistake, you just propagated it, and I just had to open my mouth because I am bored, lonely, and have no actual insight with this topic.
Interesting and unfortunate! We are all still thinking WTF happened with no real info.
Peace out!
We have TONS of real information - no thanks to Mission.
- The fact that the information we have is no thanks to Mission - again - is excellent information.
- We have tons of information that the Mission assholes running that program are totally fucking clueless and are turning out totally fucking clueless students.
- We know that Mission is deliberately introducing two devices - the Hewett Link and Birrenator - which have blown gliders off tow and into fatal whipstalls. And whether or not one was a relevant issue really isn't all that important. We still have two critical problems we can fix.
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
