Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1459
Lockout

Matt Hayes - 2013/12/17 17:42 UTC

Just want to see if I can get this YouTube thing down. This is a video that is floating all over Facebook and numerous other websites. I am quite partial to foot launching off a mountain and this doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about aerotowing.

How warm and fuzzy does THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ


make you feel about foot launching off a mountain? You can fuck up anything you feel like in this game if you try hard enough. And it's pretty goddam obvious that you have to put a lot less effort into foot launching off a mountain to fuck things up than you do aerotowing off a cart.

Granted the pilot did many things wrong, I still like being a "glider" not a "kite".

EVERYBODY prefers being a glider. But the people who don't have their heads stuck up their asses too far prefer being kites for three or four minutes to get to workable altitude to being occupants of trucks for fifteen or twenty minutes to get to setup areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn4cTQH743E


I think I got it!!!

If you did you wouldn't be hanging out with a bunch of Bob Show assholes.

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/12/18 00:24 UTC

Me too. I've been very lucky to be in a part of the country (Southern California) where foot launch sites are everywhere (Torrey, Crestline, Sylmar, Elsinore, Soboba, Horse, Otay, Laguna, Blossom ... and I'm sure I'm forgetting some).

And this part of the country is very lucky to have you in that part of the country.

But I did fly an aerotow tandem with Malcolm in Florida, and it was pretty amazing.

Yeah. They've got this incredible piece of fishing line, which...

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/19

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

...if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), will break before you can get into too much trouble. Maybe you could explain to some of us dregs...

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/31 07:34:26 UTC

But if you want to talk numbers and logic, then start by explaining the laws of physics in terms of differential equations and not your simple 2+2=4 "logic" if you want my respect. Go ahead and explain the first quarter of Newtonian physics for us and see how far you get. We'll let you work your way up to the Navier-Stokes equations.

...just how that works in terms of differential and Navier-Stokes equations.

I wonder if there are any meaningful statistics on the safety of each launching method?

Nah. 'Cause when motherfuckers like Malcolm, Dennis, Peter, Sam get people killed motherfuckers like you have absolutely no interest in what happened - beyond studiously ignoring and suppressing the facts of the matter.

Either way, thanks for being here Matt!!

What's wrong, Bob? Running low on smilies or am I just not seeing them against this obnoxious yellow background you're using for the Rio Grande Soaring Association subforum?

Please contact me any time if you have any questions or suggestions regarding the forum.

I got a few questions and suggestions regarding you and your forums, Bob.

We're trying to build a national association based on open communications, so don't hesitate to ... communicate!!

Sure he is, Matt. Just be real careful not to openly communicate any minority or unpopular positions - especially principled ones.

Bill Cummings - 2013/12/18 04:44 UTC

Matt I do think you gots it.
Here is what I see.
0:14 still in good position with tugs wheels even with the horizon.

0:14+ Tug enters thermal. Pilot my be too low to safely push out to put tug wheels in line with the horizon. USHPA does not recommend a push out in this situation.

Why not? Bob's buddy Malcolm does:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/19

The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

Bob can probably pull some equations out of his ass to explain that to you.

Fish eye lens makes altitude hard to judge here but being he was only off the dolly for five seconds a push out now would be too low. I would have released. (He didn't and it worked THIS time.)

He didn't have a clue what he was doing and the asshole on the other end didn't give a flying fuck.

0:14 to 0:18 (in fast forward) notice PIO (wing angle to horizon changing repeatedly) Recommend using a vertical stabilizer.

I recommend not using that fast forward crap so we can tell what's going on.

0:37 to 0:39 too low behind tug, prop wash and left wing flutter indicating stall at the root. (Near the keel.) Camera mounted left of keel, blocking some view of right wing activity.

Bullshit. If the glider's low and partially stalled that's entirely the tug's fault. There's nothing stopping him from powering on and dropping down other than apathy, incompetence, negligence.

0:45 RELEASE NOW PLEASE!

He needs to do some SERIOUS pulling in before he does anything else.

0:50 to 0:54 Slack in harness main.

Guess the glider isn't flying for a bit.

(At 0:51 pilot was against the left rear flying wire, here he could have let go of the bar and release late.)

He shouldn't have HAD to let go of the bar...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

If he hadn't been taught that's it's OK to go up with and sold total shit equipment he could've released and flown out of this.

0:53 Separate from tow. (I suspect weaklink is too strong.)

- "Too strong" for WHAT?

- To use as an emergency release if the three-string ices up?

- To break before you can get into too much trouble? By that definition Zack Marzec's Rooney Link was too strong. But only Rooney was enough of an asshole to recommend that SOMEBODY ELSE...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...go lighter.

- Define "too strong". This guy was at 1.5 Gs. USHGA says "too strong" is over twice the max certified operating weight.

- What nasty stuff can you assure us that a one G Hewett Link will prevent happening to a glider that a two G weak link won't?

- You're full of shit, Bill. Shut up.

0:56 Bar should be stuffed or respond with a wing over here to not climb into break stall that happens at--

We're not talking about towing any more. Free flyers get dumped into shit worse than this by thermal turbulence.

0:59 Break stall. (This was close to tucking and tumbling.)

1:02 to 1:04 Bar should be back more to prevent mild stall at---
1:06 Mild secondary stall.
Flare higher on the down tubes. (Flare was low and late)

What's stopping him from landing on his wheels?

There was a time higher up where a push out to get into position behind the tug may have been okay but I wasn't there to judge airspeed so I can't recommend that it would have been safe to do so.

Would it have been safe for the tug to pull in? How come you're not talking about that end of the string?

This is my best guess with only the video for evidence.

There's a lot more evidence than that that's been floating around the web, Bill. But a statement from the tug isn't part of it.

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/12/18 08:43 UTC

This is a flight attitude I hope to never see first-hand:

42-05328
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png

How do you think Terry was feeling about the flight attitude that put him down like THIS?:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg

He was very lucky to survive!

Yeah, sometimes you're better off as a crap pilot on crap equipment in crap air with a crap driver who doesn't fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope than you are with all of the above and some pigfucker like Sam making a good decision in the interest of your safety.

So Bob...

- This guy who you didn't know before from the other side of the planet didn't get so much as scratched and went back up for a totally successful hop on the same glider a short time later that afternoon.

- Terry was one the five significant contributors in your little cult a year and a half ago and he had wanted me silenced and exiled almost as much as you did/do.

So how come you've got two more posts in this Lockout discussion than you did in any of the Terry discussions?

Matt Hayes - 2013/12/18 17:20 UTC

Bob thank you, very glad to be here. Thank you for all your help and support!

From what hell are you emerging?

Bill your analysis seems spot on.

Yeah, sure. As long as you totally ignore the fundamental issues here.

I have aerotowed tandem a few times behind a Dragonfly. Lucky for me I was with a very competent HG pilot, Dustin Martin...

Yeah. The same one Lauren was lucky to be up with...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

...when she got her tandem rating!!!

...and tug pilot Mark Knight with Sonora Wings in AZ.

And Bryan Bowker...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...was very lucky to have Mark Knight as a tow instructor.

While we're on the subject...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Knight - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.

Ask Bill what he thinks of that asshole's recommendation for weak link rating.

Obviously much different in a big ole tandem Falcon over a high performance blade wing. Maybe one day I'll get the itch and try it but for now I'm happy running of peaks.

So was Eric Thorstenson up to the last effort on 2012/07/04 at Chelan Butte. Last I heard everybody was thrilled that he was able to wiggle his toes.

Sam Kellner - 2013/12/19 12:47 UTC

The attitude/bank angle is not the scary part, in normal flight. The slack hang strap is
When learning aerotow, I was reluctant to be aggressive enough and push-out when the tug starts to climb suddenly in lift/thermal.
But when under tow, we have thrust, so it is a bit different than normal flight.

So Sam... What tends to happen when...

http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/index.asp
WW Scooter Towing Resources

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...that thrust is suddenly and totally cut. Oh yeah, the nose drops gently and you pull in and land. Never mind.

Keep the tug on the horizon.

Thanks for the video Matt. Again welcome to US Hawks.

Fuck you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Joe Greblo - 2013/12/19 22:54:37 UTC
Grebloville, California

Gosh there's a lot going on in that video, and it's probably a wonderful learning tool for everyone.

If this sport were capable of learning anything shit like that would never have happened.

So glad you're ok. In watching a few times, it seems clear that you were spared much harsher consequences when your nose wire severed the tow bridle near the nose of the glider.

Great job doing your homework on this one, Joe.

Up until that point, things were getting awfully bad, awfully fast.

Any comment on the fact that he was equipped with a release that's totally useless in ANY emergency situation? Just kidding.

It's also tremendously helpful to so clearly observe how the upper tow bridle gets dangerously close to the glider's nose wires when the tug got high above you.

No Joe. You just don't get this aerotowing scene. The tug NEVER gets high above the glider. It's always the glider's fault for getting low behind the tug. Dr. Trisa Tilletti, the Towing Committee Chairman, has that on the written test. Anything the tug does is right.

Your control loss seems consistent with the bridle pushing against the right front flying wire.

He was fucked at 0:48 - regardless of any wire contact.

Trying to get out of a left turn might not even be possible when... 1) the right wing is being lifted from the nose wire;

You CAN'T lift a wing with a bridle on a nose wire. Any effect is dwarfed to nonexistence by all the other shit going on.

2) when the high wing is under a large load and the glider is not allowed to adverse yaw to the left to allow a right turn, and...

Save it. The glider's stalling and locking out because the people on the ends of the string totally failed to keep things together. Discussing the fine points is like discussing the best why to fly into the side of a barn when after you've overflown the LZ.

3) when the pilot is restricted from lowering the angle of attack because the nose is being lifted near the nose plate.

Bullshit. THIS:

40-05322
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/11414135356_a7c2e0ee74_o.png


is one frame prior to the pop, that's as high as the tow angle ever gets, there's nothing very significant going anywhere other than to the pilot's shoulders and trim point on the keel. If the upper bridle were capable of passing though the nose wire the results would be pretty much the same.

I'll leave it to the tow experts...

Name some tow experts, Joe. We're informed that we should be listening to assholes like Bobby Bailey, Russell Brown, Dennis Pagen, Steve Kroop, Jim Rooney, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Instructor Tjaden ferchrisake... How much of their crap have you read and what have you stumbled across that's made any sense?

...to discuss the methods of preventing the tow bridles or tow line from coming in contact with the flying wires, but at least now we have a clear video as to why it's important.

Bullshit.

- You need PILOTS * on BOTH ends of the string to keep things under control as best as possible.

* 'Cept for aero, the pilot on the pulling end of the string doesn't need to have any experience off the ground. He just needs to know how to manage the glider's thrust.

- You need equipment which allows the glider to be controlled as safely as possible at all times during and at the termination of the tow no matter what's going on.

These guys were running on empty on all of the above.

I'm sure others will add to your own observations in an effort to help you and others prevent this from happening again.

Sure Joe. Hang glider towing culture is gonna do something to fix a problem.

All the best,
Joe

How 'bout you run along back to Windsports and see if you can come up with any ideas for reducing the number of broken arms and unhooked launches amongst your students and graduates.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=811
FTHI

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/10/25 06:28:43 UTC

Joe knows far more about hang gliding than I probably ever will.

Yeah Bob. Totally.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Angelo Mantas - 2013/12/19 23:42:18 UTC
Chicago

I've read all the posts in this thread, and the issues that have only been slightly addressed are what happens AFTER he's released.

Right Angelo. We've got all the problems leading up to the lockout and separation satisfactorily dealt with.

After a high speed dive, the pitch stability on the glider kicks in, the glider levels off, then pitches up as it recovers. He comes really close to a whip-stall, everything gets real quiet before the nose drops through and regains flying speed. Lockout, you appear to be barely more than a passenger as all this is going on...

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

So?

...you need to make the correct motions to stabilize the wing instead of just going along with whatever it's doing. When the wing started to pitch up, you need to pull in once you get level. You're lucky you didn't tumble.

Did better than Zack Marzec, didn't he? Any thoughts on why?

You also seem to be cross controlling, moving your shoulders one way but letting your lower body swing the other. This really reduces your control authority. You might need to go back for some more tandem training...

Yeah, where would we all be without tandem training.

...you have to be able to handle situations like this if you solo aero tow.

- He needs to be able to not get into situations like this if he's gonna solo aerotow - 'cause they're way south of survivable down low no matter how well and quickly one reacts - and to deal with tugs like this one.

- He solo aerotowed just fine almost immediately after this one without any assistance from any goddam tandem instructors.

- If someone can't learn to effect proper roll control one has no business doing any kind of flying solo.

- If the Industry can't reach any actual conclusions with what went wrong with THESE two:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

if:
- one-size-fits-all 130 pound test fishing line increases the safety of the towing operation
- "pro towing" is a skill that can be learned and mastered
- Jim Rooney has a keen intellect
then nobody has any business doing any kind of towing.

- I'm guessing you're totally cool with all the crap that's been spewed out previously in this thread 'cause I don't hear you calling anyone on anything.

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/20 00:39:04 UTC

Joe Greblo - 2013/12/19 22:54:37 UTC

Gosh there's a lot going on in that video...

First post in almost six years. You are too cool.

Yeah, start thinking about all the people who've had lives destroyed and ended in that timespan because the organizations and commercial interests won't tolerate any fixes of any problems...

Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.

...and how much help Joe and his products like Bob Kuczewski and Orion Price have been helping to clean things up. Too cool.

Red Howard - 2013/12/20 02:18:36 UTC

Brian,

Maybe until now, things were going along well enough.

Yeah...



Right.

Joe,

Welcome to the party! I can't add to the tow discussion...

That's OK. We just got enough clueless crap from him to last us quite a while.

...but it's good to see you here. Don't be a stranger!

Don't worry. No one will ever accuse Joe of being a banworthy member of The Extremist One Percent.

[Steve Davy]

Just when I think the Jackass show can't get any more ludicrous, along comes Greblo with:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Joe Greblo - 2013/12/19 22:54:37 UTC

In watching a few times, it seems clear that you were spared much harsher consequences when your nose wire severed the tow bridle near the nose of the glider.

Thanks Joe.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/20 06:14:49 UTC

Red Howard - 2013/12/20 02:18:36 UTC

Don't be a stranger!

But I'm not gonna hold my breath.

After reading that "contribution" why would anyone with a double or triple digit IQ bother?

It could be 2020 before post #2.

Well, actually it was a real gem for Yours Truly - given the Bob/Joe relationship.

Erik Boehm - 2013/12/20 10:40:54 UTC

Nobody has commented on the mild "cross controlling"?

Plenty of people have commented on it. Mother Nature was commenting on it while it was happening.

It seems to me that there was still room for stronger control inputs.

Really?

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


Do ya think?

Don't move up to a higher performance glider, that could get you in a lot of trouble.

But keep right on using that piece of shit release which was one of the major reasons you just about got killed and that one G weak link that dumped two gliders before your first flight and was the primary factor that got Zack Marzec killed early this year. Or was that a line break? It's getting hard to remember now.

And get your hands up higher on the downtubes for the flare.

Asshole.

Dustin Martin - 2013/12/20 15:41:11 UTC

toss the weaklink and go for the full barrel roll?

Yeah, Dustin. There's no fuckin' way you can do a barrel roll on tow with a two hundred plus pound limit on transmitted thrust.

So where the fuck were you in the Zack Marzec discussions? Why is this one worth commenting on and the other not? Is it just that it's more socially acceptable to go after this guy 'cause you can point to all kinds of real and alleged pilot incompetence/error stuff and use it to obscure the business-as-usual contributions?

[Tad Eareckson]

Ya read something halfway intelligent that somebody's written in a magazine, posted, been quoted as saying and ya start thinking the best, making assumptions, going into optimism mode, dropping your guard.

Tad Eareckson - 2011/03/07 18:58:32 UTC

I think Joe's a very smart guy. I don't know if he's got everything right but if someone held a gun to my head he'd probably be my top instructor recommendation - at least for free flight.

No way in hell. This sport's got NOTHING in the way of brains, competence, integrity at its front end.

See the spreader?

06-01602
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/11414264713_1fa67f5689_o.png


It's fixed at that position by the manufacturer. The assholes who "design" and build these things don't have any more of a freakin' clue what the purpose of the spreader is supposed to be than...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doe_sNB1wbg


1504
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2831/9623912388_98cf582742_o.png


...the assholes who fly them - along with assholes in the middle who sell them and teach other assholes to fly them. I guess they just install them because people are used to seeing them reducing the pressure on their carabiners and would feel cheated if they didn't get them.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Dustin Martin - 2013/12/20 15:41:11 UTC

toss the weaklink and go for the full barrel roll?

2013/12/20 20:49:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

19-03703
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Fuck you, Jonathan.

Cool Breeze - 2013/12/20 19:46:24 UTC

Me thinks that there should be a bicycle like tow release...

Of course it's getting so that nobody can imagine blowing a release with anything other than a bicycle brake lever 'cause that's what Bobby used to flood the market.

...that only keeps you on tow when you are actively holding the lever in.

- That sounds like funky shit to me and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's general rule is "no funky shit". Always better to stay with Industry Standard stuff that's tried and true...

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


...than completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforeseen ways as it tries its damnedest to kill you.

- Don't you think that if something like that were really a good idea:
-- Dr. Lionel D. Hewett would've included it in his Skyting Criteria for safe towing operations?
-- it would be mentioned as being advantageous in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?
-- everybody would be using it already?
-- such a device would take precedence over a loop of fishing line as the focal point of a safe towing system?
-- the glider manufacturer's would have developed them and made them available?
-- Bobby Bailey and the people at Quest would've perfected it by now?
-- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney would be refusing to tow people with second and third rate equipment?

- So what's wrong with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JjtEnudT8Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8316357172/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306164803/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312402264/

As soon as you stop applying pressure, bingo bango, you are released.

Why bother? If you just wait an extra second or two...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

...the weak link will kick in and do its job.

The problem is how to move to the side of your base tube after release.

- Yeah, brilliant. It's only gonna be a potential problem AFTER release. No fuckin' way there's a possibility of a bridle getting snagged BEFORE release.

- What if you didn't use some shoddy overbuilt piece of crap for an actuator?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/

Red Howard - 2013/12/20 21:23:23 UTC

I do not tow, so maybe my idea here needs a grain of salt. Just for discussion, then:

If you need to slide a bicycle brake lever (being used as a tow release) to the side of the basetube after a tow, I think you could mount that brake lever on a short tube that slides easily over the basetube. You would hold the basetube, not the sliding tube, during the launch, with the lever compressed in your hand. Let go of the lever, and the towline is released. Then, just slide the lever assembly off to one end of the basetube. The sliding sleeve should be large enough to shed dirt, meaning it will not get jammed by a grain of sand.

And TAD'S engineering is Rube Goldberg.

Ya know, as soon as everybody gets this towing stuff all figured out, I wanna go towing!!

Yeah, Red. Let's wait until EVERYBODY gets this towing stuff all figured out. Let's not just go to the people who DON'T have shit for brains and listen to what THEY'RE saying.

With everybody doing different things right now, I'm really not sure who has the best answers.

Of course you're not. You're too goddam stupid to listen to and focus on the handful of people who are and have for years or decades been doing things right.

I sure do like the idea of a "dead-man" tow release system, though.

Fuck you, Red.

I don't think anybody has a better tow release than Peter Birren's LinkKnife.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC
Salt Lake City

There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.

Neither does NASA.

Yeah, and NASA's got totally awesome solid rocket boosters and heat shield tiles. Let's put them on our gliders.

Peter has done a lot of towing.

Fuck Peter. He's done about 65 aerotows and damn near killed himself on two of them. He's the leader of a tiny little cult in Northern Illinois that does virtually nothing other than foot launch static tow on a thirteen thousand foot runway using Hewett Bridles. The only reason that they get away with that crap without a lot of really ugly crashes is because their volume is nonexistent compared to the stationary winch, platform, and aero done out in the real world. Quest will pull more people on a good weekend on their crappy equipment than Peter's operation pulls in a decade on their crappy equipment. And you've gotta do A LOT of iterations before everything lines up right at a low enough altitude for the crappy equipment to matter.

The LinkKnife only works better, under the heaviest possible loading.

Yeah red. The heaviest possible loading being AT MOST...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G).

...the extreme bottom end of the legal weak link range and about half of what it's reasonably safe to tow with.

And it works GREAT when you pull it!

So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

But the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop at maybe two hundred, one hundred, fifty feet. See any potential problems with that?

If load capacity were such a big fuckin' deal how come:

- Pat Denevan is using two-string releases rather than bothering to teach his students how to use three strings?

- the universal aero pro toad release is based on a bent parachute pin?

- Quest perfected its two point release by drilling and rotating the spinnaker shackle ninety degrees so the force pulls from the middle of the gate instead of the hinge/apex?

Great, Red. This motherfucker:

42-05328
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7309/11414153476_3ca8cc4036_o.png


for the purpose of the exercise, got killed but good. That's a closed three-string at the bridle apex recoiling from the weak link pop. The problem wasn't that it couldn't handle the capacity. The problem was that he had zero safe opportunity to pull it. You tell me how he'd have been one heartbeat less dead if that had been a goddam Linknife instead.

Two parachutes. One will safely stop you in a hundred and fifty feet, the other needs twice that. What the fuck difference does it make if you can't pry either one out of the container?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

michael170 - 2013/12/20 22:01:57 UTC

http://www.getoffrelease.com/

Very short track record.

Helen McKerral - 2013/12/20 22:13:49 UTC
South Australia

Hi All

Not "All"...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...Helen. And I don't recall you making a lot of noise about the shit that motherfucker pulled. And THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18876
Hang glider Crash

Helen McKerral - 2010/09/07 00:16:04 UTC
South Australia

There have been numerous threads in the past about unhooked launches and ways to prevent them. One constant poster, Tad, had an unfortunate brow-beating style that flooded threads and got him banned, but IMO his point was nonetheless valid; people simply got so annoyed by his style, they stopped listening and his message was lost.

is total bullshit and you know it.
- I was NEVER a CONSTANT poster who flooded threads over there. 251 post over 195 days. Do the math.
- It was ONLY because of Tad's unfortunate brow-beating style that you're now doing effective hook-in checks.
- Your FRIEND Jack sabotaged, locked, and banned me because I was winning battles and making him and his buddies like the assholes they are.
- My hit counts were ALWAYS high. 11811 hits on "Welcome / About This Forum" over here as of this post.

Just popping in - nice to see many old friends (Hi, Red!) still around!

Those stupid motherfuckers aren't your friends, Helen.

Seeing the discussion this has generated in my local club forum and elsewhere highlights the ENORMOUS value of sharing incident and accident reports with other pilots.. and videos take that to yet another, even more helpful, level. So great kudos to Lockout for allowing the vid to be shared to help others avoid his mistakes.

- Did the tug make any mistakes?

- What did you think about Lockout's decision to drop back down from the 1.5 G weak link that James Freeman uses...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Helen McKerral - 2009/06/29 06:32:32 UTC

Of the two thousand plus flights I've had, less than ten percent are footlaunch ground tow, but they account for fifty percent of the six times I've genuinely thought I was going to die or be seriously injured in this sport, and was literally inches away from doing so. Of the three towing instances, two were not my fault, one was. All three involved hurtling at extremely high groundspeeds very low to the ground with insufficient airspeed to climb, where "STOP STOP STOP" would have seen me plough in headfirst.

The three times I narrowly avoided injury when car towing were purely through luck, not skill (stopping was not an option - I could only screech, MORE TENSION MORE TENSION MORE TENSION and hope the vehicle had enough oomph to get me up).

...to the 1.0 "standard" that Lockout watched pop on two normal tows before he flew?

- How many people and/or operations do you estimate will switch to safe releases as a result of seeing this video and participating in or reading the discussions it spawned?

Unfortunately, we've all seen other (less emotionally secure?) pilots who are unable to be as generous and, although we inevitably hear about their incidents on the grapevine, if the pilot doesn't raise it him or herself, everyone pretends it hasn't happened.

So...

The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

Where's THAT video? All we've got from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney are repeated statements that unhooked launches can happen to anybody and the only hope we have is to hope our friends will notice our dangling carabiners.

This is counterproductive not just for the pilot community, but for the pilot who may not get thoroughly debriefed, and who is then doomed to repeat their mistake.

What we have from Lockout is that he's gonna us a light weaklink to keep from getting into too much trouble and be certain of the exact lanyard location so's he can safely and reliably make the easy reach in an emergency. Think that'll do it? It certainly appears that that'll be plenty good enough for his aerotow operation.

In fact, I think it's incredibly ironic that we feel embarrassed about sharing incidents.

Watch what happens when you present solutions.

Perhaps if our culture genuinely changed from "Ooops, I f***ed up," to "Hey, at least I can prevent someone else from f***ing up," we'd save more of our friends' vertebrae, brains and lives.

"Our" culture IS genuinely changing - but it's just an incremental thing in the reverse direction.

Anyway, thanks again to Lockout and LordHairyBalls (Harrison Rowntree) who - despite their... unfortunate... tags - will, with this exceptional video contribution, most likely save a body or two.

Just like the very similar Hang Glide Chicago double fatality did well ever eight years ago.

Get back to me six months from now and tell me how a single goddam thing is gonna be better in response to this one. And, no, Lockout learning to effect weight shift control doesn't count.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

Diev Hart - 2013/12/20 22:14:30 UTC

Red Howard - 2013/12/20 21:23:23 UTC

I don't think anybody has a better tow release than Peter Birren's LinkKnife...

My problem with it is you have to let go of the basetube to grab your linkknife line and pull it to cut the weaklink.....that letting go of the basetube when all goes to hell.....compared to just sliding your hand in an inch....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14663
Aerotow Incident

Diev Hart - 2009/12/02 06:45:13 UTC

I'm Tad...

..."well now if you had my mouth release this would have never even been an issue"...

The same goes for the finger string on the basetube release for that matter...

Fuck you, Diev.

(Just get off as soon as you don't like it...and set your limits...it's not really an issue until you TRY to be superman)

lockout - 2013/12/19 04:17:30 UTC

However, my main problem, which no one has alluded to because it is not obvious from the camera angle, is that when I wanted to release I couldn't see the release line. The release was tied high on my right shoulder strap and in theory all I had to do if I couldn't see it was to locate it by feel and pull it. However in such a situation (and I have gone over the video which was filmed in thirty frames per second), things were happening literally frame by frame, there is no time to work out whether the release is on the right shoulder or the left shoulder and then start feeling for it.

Yeah, all these people are getting mangled and killed 'cause they're trying to be superman. Terminally stupid sunavabitch.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', ASSHOLE...

Bob Buxton accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeb0nNIKs
Scott Buxton - 2013/02/10
dead
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5902.html#p5902
016-04308
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/13746342624_c9b015f814_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
022-04610

People are getting mangled and killed 'cause they're on crap equipment that The Industry has sold them and told them is state-of-the-art and they're in situations where if they:
- stop flying the glider they're fucked instantly
- don't release they're fucked a couple of seconds later than they would have been if they had stopped flying the glider

DO THE MATH.

These guys don't feel like Superman did when he was able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. They feel like he did when he was going over the jump with his hands caught in the bridle of his horse who wasn't.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30483
Aero-Tow Lockout Violent Pitching & Near Tumble

NMERider - 2013/12/21 00:08:52 UTC

Note to the community:

Who's the "COMMUNITY", Jonathan?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 14:21:38 UTC

But what we have in excess here on the Org is generally referred to as a mutual masturbation society. That's where pilots get together and sit around and just jack each other off. That's what I see here in spades.

Your brain dead, Tad-free, little mutual masturbation society composed of hundreds of assholes who wouldn't lift their gliders to check connection status two seconds before launch with guns to their heads?

I started this thread for the sake of the pilot community with the intention of having pilots become aware of several avoidable errors...

- Pretty much all the fucking avoidable errors were well known well over forty years ago. But now there's no such thing as a bad pin man, there's no problem whatsoever with taking your hand off the bar as long as you know which shoulder your release lanyard is tied to, and rope breaks and premature releases increase the safety of the towing operation and fix whatever's going on back there.

- So how come Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Instructor Tjaden didn't start this thread for the sake of the pilot community with the intention of having pilots become aware of several avoidable errors? How come the only time she bothers to weigh in on anything is...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

Lauren Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:56:42 UTC
Groveland, Florida

It is a great tragedy to lose someone so young and vital. We are sick about it, and our hearts go out to his friends, family and loved ones.

...to tell us what a great tragedy it is to lose someone so young and vital, how sick about it the wonderful people at Quest are, and how their hearts go out to his friends, family, and loved ones after the focal point of their safe towing system that they've been perfecting for twenty years has blown him off tow into a tailslide, whipstall, and tumble?

...that can put any one of us in a wheelchair or a pine box in short order.

Particularly members of the Axaopoulos Mutual Masturbation Society.

Let's stop the editorializing and keep the topic focused on how each of us can avoid repeating any of Lockout's major errors that could have ended disastrously.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/20

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

I'm just not seeing the problem here, Jonathan. He got into a lot of trouble because he used the equivalent of the Tad-O-Link that didn't break when it was supposed to and almost killed Paul Tjaden over five years ago. He's now realized the error of his ways and gone back to the equivalent of the Rooney Link that did break when it was supposed to and killed Zack Marzec early this year. What more do we need to discuss?

Thank you from a Self-Moderator

You don't need to self moderate, Jonathan.

19-03703
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png


You have a Rooney Link to keep you from getting too far out of whack.

K C Benn - 2013/12/21 07:25:15 UTC
Ogden

Great advice NME. When in doubt don't push out.

Yeah?

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2013/12/17

The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

So who the fuck are you...

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round. This primer will teach you the basics of AT theory and technique. Our instructors have fine-tuned this system over the course of many years, while teaching thousands of people how to aerotow hang gliders. Careful study of this material will make your transition to AT faster, easier, less expensive, and safer. When done properly, AT is your gateway to longer, higher, hassle-free flights, and more airtime with less effort than ever before.

...to be giving advice on aerotowing?

Roll and pull in. Doing rad wings at Crawfords this summer...

How many hands did you have on the basetube?

I ended up upside down and weightless. I pulled in and held on to base tube with a roll.

How many hands were you using?

I swear my glider flew upside down for a second.

How many hands were you using?

Thank God it flipped over and rolled out of it.

So what do you think God was doing when Zack Marzec was tumbling to a fatal impact?

Im sure if I had done what that pilot did the glider would of gone backwards and folded up.

So what was it you think Zack Marzec failed to do properly? This guy flew out of it and hopped back on the cart a short time later. Zack was killed. Are you sure you have your priorities straight?