landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/24 16:16:32 UTC

But its ok for you to call Ryan Cryin_Ryan

It's OK for ANYONE to call that miserable little piece of shit anything he feels like.

NMERider - 2014/01/24 16:43:55 UTC

Erik Boehm - 2014/01/24 09:46:31 UTC

This thread could just as easily be titled: "A good reason to land on your feet"

If it wasn't for wheels this sport would slowly die.

This sport has been DEMOLISHED by standup landings.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

The primary emphasis is on an impossibly difficult and dangerous landing and - relatively speaking - nobody's flying hang gliders.

Nearly all tandem instruction is done by landing on wheels regardless of whether it was a mountain foot launch or an aero-tow surface launch.

Nearly?

The logic of those whose posts disparage others for doing wheel landings is warped at best.

What concerns me is how pilots may not treat their landing wheels as seriously as they would treat their lower rigging or the integrity of their crossbars.

How has the sport treated landing wheels? For most of its history wheels have been:
- cheap add-ons
- bulky
- draggy
- heavy
- tiny

A.I.R. makes some beautifully engineered, clean, functional skids and people fall in love with them and start using them.

What also concerns me is how pilots may feel that wheels insure or guarantee safety.

How much does it concern you that tens of thousands of assholes are going up on releases that they know for certainties will be one hundred percent useless in emergency situations...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...because they've got this magic loop of fishing line that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

...MIGHT break at just the right time to keep them from getting killed and will NEVER break in a manner that can do anything more than inconvenience them?

They obviously don't do that.

Since when did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...obviousness about anything start mattering in this sport?

Honestly? I feel that wheel landings should be a sign-off. There are many ways that wheels can not only bite you hard in the ass if you land on them incorrectly...

Duh. But not one percent as hard as one tends to get bit by imperfect flare timing or perfect flare timing fucked up whenever Mother Nature feels like making the scene.

...but they can cause a blown launch as well.

Only if people let them. We have such things as crew and locking wheels.

Not all wheel are engineered to be landed on...

...yet pilots insist on landing on them anyway.

Hang gliders very obviously aren't engineered to be foot landed...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...and can't be - yet people insist on landing themselves and compelling others to land so.

In fact you don't even need wheel to safely land on your belly (in the right conditions) if your technique is sound.

Which is exactly what...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

...Steve Pearson is saying.

There is another option to wheels that is very popular in Europe and that is the streamlined, carbon composite skids made by Falko Kruger. These are works of art by very sturdy and aerodynamic.

What was I just saying?

But above all, when coming in on wheels, skids or belly, technique is paramount along with the integrity of the landing gear, and that is where this conversation should be going.

Yes.

Around 1980, I used to land my double-surface glider safely on drilled out hockey pucks on a soccer field. It requires proper technique and wheels that are compatible with the runway.

Name another fixed wing aircraft for which that's not true.

Honestly, I feel that a properly engineered set of skids with a UHMW contact surface may be a viable alternative to wheels.

Bush pilots are proficient in landing (and taking off) on snow skis by using them as skids on grass, etc. But that is a different conversation.

Not really.

This pilot broke and sliced his finger because his valve stems where facing the inside rather than away from him. Why that is I don't know.

Stupidity. Not considering worst case scenarios. SOP for hang gliding.

I also felt his landing was harsh when he bounced and the impact contributed to the failure of his wheel hub. Yes, I have inspected what I believe are the same hubs and what I saw was flimsy. I assume it is the same model as his.

OK then. New rule: Nobody land hard when using these wheels. Add it to:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

Anyhow, I miss landing on wheels.

I miss pretty much my whole career of not having landed on wheels.

It is hysterically fun to grease it in to the deck at 35 mph then see how far I can roll out and then balance the glider on the wheels while standing still as long as I can. Yes, if carelessly done you can break your neck doing this. Wheels are no guarantee of a safe landing.

Has anybody actually broken his neck doing that? You can break your neck a hundred times easier when you come in upright.

Safe landings depend upon proper skills and sound judgement regardless the equipment used; pilot's physical limitations (if any); surface weather; and the terrain.

Use techniques and equipment that minimize the demands on skills and judgment, accommodate physical limitations and micrometeorological problems and surprises. And don't come in on shitty terrain.

Hopefully, there are still a few forum members reading this topic. There is value to be gotten from the OP.

But ONLY to forum members. Just the assholes Jack permits to post and see the full content of all discussions.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/24 17:03:53 UTC

Wheels have their place, I've only ever intentionally landed on mine 3 times, 2 of which were tandem/8000 ft/no wind, and one where the passengers leg loops were to tight and she didn't think she could run

That's 'cause you're a far superior specimen of the human race.

if you can run fast enough to get a glider in the air, you should be strong enough to land on your feet.

ANYBODY is STRONG ENOUGH to land on his feet. Anybody's strong enough to pull a loop. Just being strong enough to do something don't necessarily make it a great idea.

its easier on the equipment

Bullshit. Two groups of twenty landers - wheel and foot. Who's buying the most replacement downtubes? And if a foot guy breaks an arm you need to immediately replace him with a fresh one.

too many people land on wheels as a crutch

Carrier pilots, fer instance. Fuck you.

do whatever you want

I will, thank you very much. And I don't give a rat's ass about your take on it.

NMERider - 2014/01/24 17:12:43 UTC

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/24 16:16:32 UTC

But its ok for you to call Ryan Cryin_Ryan

If the shoe fits...

If Ryan stopped being such a sulky, tantrum-throwing cry baby I'd stop calling him Cryin_Ryan. I'd just call him Ryan. He needs to put on his big-boy pants and grow some dignity towards others as well as himself. Otherwise the name sticks. If I were him I'd wear it as a badge of honor, but then I'm not him.

He's incompetent and a liar, saboteur, and USHGA operative. Fuck him.

Side Note: smokenjoe50 is a naturally talented pilot who has progressed very rapidly and is consistently out-climbing a large percentage of the local pilots who have many times more experience.

I don't give a rat's ass. It's not important.

I know this from the pleasure of his company in the air many times. There are others who I have personally seen rise to the top of the stack with their skills in a very short period.

What I don't understand is why some of these naturally talented pilots and many other long-time talented pilots are so outspokenly intolerant of other pilots' errors and shortcomings without first offering constructive input tailored for the individual pilot who is weak in some area.

Like spot landings and snatching goodie bags off of the tops of traffic cones at eighty miles per hour.

I have seen this in every endeavor of life so I guess it is some aspect of human nature. But I have never witnessed anything good ever come of it. I decided to throw down the glove because I don't want it in here.

Yeah?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Mike Lake - 2013/03/05 23:05:17 UTC

So, Zack offers a polite, well constructed argument about weak-links in a thread about weak-links and gets accused of trolling.
Well done Zack I've found your posts to be very clear and credible.

Accusations of trolling, F***off requests? I'm sure the credibility of some others must have shifted a full two places.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/06 01:42:41 UTC

Oh god, I've been offensive to people that I hold in contempt.
How will I ever sleep at night?

Mike Lake - 2013/03/06 02:28:00 UTC

...make that a full three places.

So where the fuck were you when that serial outrage was going on?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

Kissing tug driver ass.

If a pilot really becomes a serious threat to himself and/or a flying site or to other pilots then tough measures might be called for.

Trisa, Matt, Davis, Rooney, Paulen...

And yes there are pilots who don't learn and don't listen and don't follow sound instructions from experienced pilots.

So who rated them and qualified them for being in those environments? Isn't the fucking USHGA Pilot Proficiency System supposed to count for something?

Indeed there are pilots who know all the answers and yet they crash but it was never their error or shortcoming that resulted in the crash.

See above.

This is where I draw the line and the rules of engagement change and I throw down the other glove.

And tell me about all the positive changes that have come about as a result. You only throw down gloves in situations in which you're not gonna get any backlash.

We have had to 'counsel' a number of pilots out of the sport entirely before they became either a basket case or daisy-pushers. Others have been banned from several local flying sites as well.

1. Who were their instructors and what actions did you take against them?

2. How 'bout:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


I called that motherfucker less than a dozen days before he bought it and while idiot Danny Brotto was talking about his girlfriend's unbuckled helmet. And that division of motherfuckers went right back on pulling pro toads on Rooney Links like nothing happened.

Target rich environment, Jonathan. But you're never gonna do anything that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

...has any social consequences - or real value.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

NMERider - 2014/01/24 17:18:28 UTC

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/24 17:03:53 UTC

too many people land on wheels as a crutch

This is where I draw the line--when wheels become a crutch for someone who is otherwise physically capable, but has not made the effort to master safely landing on his feet. I think we can often spot bad habits like this.

So if somebody's got a bad back or knees or is a paraplegic landing on the wheels is perfectly acceptable and safe. But if he's physically one hundred percent and CHOOSES not to foot land he's an incompetent and dangerous flat sacker and YOU draw the line.

Ya know, Jonathan...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png


If that's the best you can do on a simple smooth air dolly launch, if you're a goddam passenger sixth in line behind:

- Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey
- Davis Meet-Head Straub
- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney
- the Dragonfly:
-- tow mast breakaway
-- tow mast breakaway protector
- the Sacred 130 Pound Greenspot focal point of your safe towing system

in the Chain Of Command then maybe you should shut the fuck up with respect to drawing lines for other people.

You were flying a pro toad bridle with a Rooney Link EXACTLY like Zack Marzec was and the ONLY REASON he's dead and you're not is because he was on the cart on 2013/02/02 at 15:20 EST at Quest and you were somewhere else.

The question for me is how and when do we intervene or do we let the chips just fall where they may?

Do whatever the fuck you want. You're not gonna do anything at policy level or take on the instructors who are putting these accidents waiting to happen into circulation - mostly Greblo and his operation would be my guest - so it doesn't really matter all that much.

Has anyone here had to personally deal with another pilot who just relied on his wheels and was too (fill in the blank) to master reasonably safe foot-landings?

Yeah. The last rating I ever signed - Frank Sauber, Hang Two. Mentored him for eight years. Got him foot landing just fine and then he reverted to rolling his PacAir Mark IV 17 in on his big ugly orange Bennett training wheels.

No effort to flare whatsoever until the glider had almost rolled to a stop. Drove me absolutely nuts - although even back then I was starting to take the position of: "So fuckin' what?"

He flew that way for damn near all of an extremely unremarkable seventeen year career and, as far as I recall, never got so much as a skinned knee.

Then on 1996/04/28 he went out with Santos Mendoza and his scooter rig to relearn foot landing and fatally locked out with an inaccessible truck tow release on his second effort.

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/24 17:58:46 UTC

Thanks for the kind words. I often say rude shit and this is why. This is aviation and pilots should be held to a higher standard.

1. Than whom?

2. We've got clearly defined standards in the USHGA rating system. Are you saying that USHGA instructors aren't holding their students to proper standards before signing them off?

3. Does the USHGA rating system preclude people who can't or don't want to foot land from obtaining ratings?

I take flying very seriously.

How do you take this standard?:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

I don't believe I've heard you piping in after any of the recent unhooked launch disasters and near misses.

I would never put down someone who is truly trying to progress.

Progress to what?

The problem with this community is people get their beginer rating and think their done learning.

Speaking of done learning.

I don't belive that some people are naturals.

Maybe not. But I do "belive" that there are plenty of people who have total zilch in the way of aptitude for flying. Some can work extra hard and overcome it, others should definitely - or should have definitely prior to getting really trashed - move(d) on to other hobbies.

The pilots the performe well work very hard to get there and when they get there they work even harder to perfect it. When I see the same pilots over and over with the same shity techniques with the oh well I got away with it attitude I take it personally.

Bullshit. When a technique for fundamental, basic, critical task:

- takes tons of hard work to learn and perfect

- accounts for the overwhelming percentage of serious injuries in the sport

- is routinely:

-- botched by highly experienced flyers, often with serious consequences

-- tossed by professionals at the top of the game - like Steve Pearson and Mike Barber - with a hundred times the experience of your average recreational flyer

then there's something seriously wrong with the technique and no amount of work is gonna change that - regardless of how personally you may take things.

Felix Cantesanu - 2014/01/24 18:09:04 UTC

Well said.

And so well written, proofread, spellchecked. And that usually tells you quite a bit about the individual to whom you're listening and the legitimacy of what he's saying.

I think the expression of being "a natural" at anything means some things come by a little easier - however even a "natural" pilot is one that works hard, is serious and is interested in progressing every time.

Jock stuff. Hang gliding is oozing with it.

NMERider - 2014/01/24 18:09:41 UTC

Thank you for the honest explanation. Your words ring true to me.

Wanna say anything about the Horganesque quality of the writing?

Obviously it's a tough call for anyone to make as to how to respond to what we perceive or know as unsafe and/or irresponsible conduct.

Make sure it's a knowledge versus a perception thing before you wade in too deeply. In hang gliding:

- light weak links are perceived as safe and heavy weak links are perceived as dangerous

- hang checks and Aussie Methodist practices are perceived as reducing the risk of unhooked launches and hook-in checks are perceived as totally useless

And it's certainly true as well as irritating or insulting to work your ass off to develop a skill and then have others come along and say something insensitive like, "Oh, that looks easy. It must have come naturally to you (blah, blah, bullshit...)".

Dune soaring and thermalling skills require a good bit of work to develop and hone. The penalty for mediocrity is sinking out. Big fucking deal.

We can't have the skills for a technique of landing - with is mandatory for every flight everyone makes - requiring the working off of asses. As an instructor I can take a first lesson student and have him wheel landing as safely and flawlessly as I can and will ever be able to before the session's over

I know I resent it when I hear underhanded insults like that. I have worked like an MF to develop what little skill I even have.

Yeah, you've worked like a motherfucker to be able to pull off XC landings in dangerous environments. And...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26847
Landing Out

NMERider - 2012/08/10 17:09:10 UTC

Be glad you don't fly XC where I do. It really sucks here in the LA Basin and I'm tired of all the hazards.

- you're not enjoying it
- throwing a dozen average recreational flyers into that can of worms is a recipe for disaster

BTW - Your recent nil-wind Marshall launch video shows what you and I are talking about. How many pilots do you think watched it and said to themselves, "I want to develop strong launch technique like that for myself!". Probably too few, unfortunately. Strong technique through hard work and effort is a tough sell.

I hope a bunch of pilots watched it and said to themselves, "I'm not likely to be able to pull that off twenty times without a high risk of something ugly happening. If I don't have a little bit of air trickling in it's not worth it."

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Davis Straub - 2014/01/25 03:55:48 UTC

Why wheels? A health insurance policy:

Bullshit.

- Wheels are landing gear. Landing gear is something you use EVERY flight. If you try to use the landing gear as a backup for a blown foot landing your arm may be broken either before they come into play or because they do/can not come into play.

- Health insurance is something you never wanna use and may not do you much/any good. Helmets, parachutes, weak links are health insurance.

http://ozreport.com/18.018

http://ozreport.com/18.018
2014 Hombres Pajaro Colombia

Davis Straub - 2014/01/25 02:25:33 UTC

Fourth task (Roldanillo)

http://hombrespajaro.blogspot.com.au/

Zippy reports that he won the fourth task just ahead of Pedro and Daniel. He also reports that, Unfortunately, Wolfi landed hard and dislocated his shoulder.

Meaning that his hands were on the downtubes.

I now use wheels to help keep that from happening to me.

Bullshit. Wheels would have done him no good whatsoever. In fact he would almost certainly have been killed if he'd attempted a wheel landing because he was undoubtedly landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

http://danielvelezbravo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/wpid-20140124_190439.jpg

NMERider - 2014/01/25 04:25:08 UTC

It's been over five years since Wolfi had an injury landing that I know of. Here's a case where wheels would have made no difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0aPubhci8
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0aPubhci8[/video]

Here's another case where wheels would have made no difference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ[/video]

Equally relevant to the discussion. Fuckin' idiot.

Wolfi's VG rope stuck on full. He broke his wrist and Dr. Chris Wills tended to the injury.

Right, Jonathan. That happened because his VG rope stuck on full. Probably neglected to buckle his helmet as well. Five Cs. Just can't emphasize those enough.

And listen to all the total assholes cheering and clapping for that stupid bullshit.

NMERider - 2014/01/24 01:56:04 UTC

You defecate on the hang gliding community that I pride myself of being a member of with virtually everything you post.

You can take pride in it if you want. It totally disgusts me. People should have their ratings yanked for doing and encouraging totally moronic crap like that.

Another problem with wheels is that if a hang glider lands on them in soft ground and they stick there is a likelihood that the pilot could have a worse injury from swinging through and the glider nosing over than if there were no wheels.

Yeah, conventional fixed wing aircraft also tend to have big problems when they try to come down on crap surfaces.

Wheels effectively make the control frame that much taller and this creates new issues. The pilot is also that much higher off the deck and is now freer to swing through rather than sliding on his belly.

Tough shit.
- elects to land on crap surface with zilch headwind
- can't stop it on his feet
- can't rotate upright enough to drag his feet/legs to prevent a free swing

I worry about this bullshit like I worry about Darwin cases who fly with aerotow release actuators within easy reach and Rooney Link emergency releases.

That increased freedom of swinging carries its own risks and may lead to a broken neck even without the nose of the glider hitting the pilot in the back of the head.

1. So?
2. Has it?
3. So what are you recommending?

Our very own Skydog had a bad one where he missed his flare and his wheels dug in and made the situation much worse.

Whereas he'd have been fine with a bare basetube.

Case in point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4XbeBamKY

Yeah, that's a really excellent example of the danger of flying with wheels.

Don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to wheels. I am opposed to pilots allowing themselves to develop a false sense of security because they have wheels.

1. And Tom Galvin is so opposed to the false sense of security given by a hook-in check that...

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

...he doesn't teach them and gets his pigfucker Colorado club buddies to ban me and delete all my posts on the issue.

2. So tell me about some of these Grebloville buddies of yours who are flying with wheels and getting in trouble because they think that makes them bulletproof. Gimme some quotes, show me some videos.

3. How concerned are you about all the assholes who go up with absolutely no ability to release in an emergency and are banking everything they own on the chance that their Rooney Links will blow at just the right moment and won't blow at just the wrong moment? Not a whole lot - judging by the total crap you fly with.

In the wrong situation wheels can end your flying career.

And every once in a while some asshole not wearing a seatbelt will get thrown clear of a car just before it goes off of a cliff. And then ten million other assholes will latch onto that incident like grim death and tell everybody how in the wrong situation a seatbelt can end your driving career.

But you can't even give us anything analogous to that absurd freak scenario to support your position.

You sound mostly intelligent about half the time but the fundamental truth of the matter is that you ain't wrapped real tight.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0aPubhci8
Wolfgang Siass Landing at the Lake Elsinore Marina

David Aldrich - 2008/11/29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D0aPubhci8


Wolfgang Siass Landing at the Lake Elsinore Marina

You call that "LANDING"?

Wolfgang Siass puts on a bit of a show at the 2008 E-team turkey meet.

http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51877518821_f629dd8595_o.png

Jellolion1

Do you get an award for crashing on the spot?

Just a little harder and you get a Darwin Award.

I hope it's monetary. He needs the cash to fix his glider.

He needs the cash so he can buy a small sailboat. In this sport he's obviously working with more dimensions than his brain can properly handle.

This is why I hate spot landing contests.

Maybe hang gliding could initiate a tradition of good landing contests.

I don't want to see people end up in wheelchairs, for want of winning a spot landing contest.

Maybe if we saw more people ending up in wheelchairs as consequences of doing stupid shit we'd have fewer people doing and applauding stupid shit.

That move by this "professional" was sheer stupidity.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.

"Sheer stupidity" doesn't begin to scratch the surface.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893
Fingers

Gordon Marshall - 2014/01/25 00:36:13 UTC

Am I being silly but is landing on the wheels the norm now?

1. Gawd I hope so.

2. You got a problem with that?

3. When you see movements made as a result of individual flyers making decisions you can bet they're gonna be in the forward direction of evolution.

- Changes imposed on flyers by national organizations, schools, instructors, flight parks, tug drivers, meet heads, Aussie Methodist enforcement gangs are always gonna move things backwards.

- That's MOVEMENTS - like a million comp pilots insisting on doubled up Rooney Links and not idiot ideas cooked up and adopted by an individual or three (e.g. checklists clipped to glider noses à la Greg Porter).

Angelo Mantas - 2014/01/25 01:30:53 UTC

For a lot of folks with rigid wings it is.

Goddam right.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

Rigids can't afford to have foot landings...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/24 17:03:53 UTC

if you can run fast enough to get a glider in the air, you should be strong enough to land on your feet. its easier on the equipment

...making things easier on the equipment.

Brad Gryder - 2014/01/25 03:06:22 UTC

If glider weight + pilot age exceeds 120, yes.

And/Or if the pilot IQ exceeds half that.

Davis Straub - 2014/01/25 04:47:17 UTC

Pat O'Mara via davisstraub.com
2014/01/24 19:35

Davis,

Update on finger... I actually broke 1/3 rd of the bone off... had an operation to screw it back. Infection put me back into the Hospital with sweats and convulsions. Healing better now but it will take 4 more weeks to get into rehab. Total cost will be close to $10,000.00

Great job, A.I.R and the good people at Quest who've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30681
Wheel landings are for F@*'s .. NOT FTW

Terry Strahl - 2014/01/24 17:07:54 UTC

Wheel landings are for F@*'s

Well yeah... And for...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

...g@#$s.

Let us not forget ... without wheels some pilots would never be able to get back in the air.

Without wheels:
- some people would never be able to get into the air in the first place
- no aerotowers would be able to get into the air safely
- no platform launchers would be able to get into the air at all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

Hey Terry,

If I recall correctly your daughter Ashley is a girl...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oyDBpMKomw


...who's rolled it in once or twice in the course of her hang gliding career. Great job standing up for her and the other half of the human race.

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/24 17:11:15 UTC

yes, his is the exceptionally rare case where there is no other option

Get fucked.

Chris McKeon - 2014/01/24 20:37:32 UTC

GOOD pilots, where are they?

Hi Guys:

This is great, it is just great to see Rotor back in the air. I knew Rotor from way back. Hell, Rotor was one of my first instructors. Rotor is not what I would call a GOOD pilot, but he loves to go flying. And that guys counts for a ton.

Good By The Big Guy

Tommy Thompson - 2014/01/24 22:02:18 UTC
North Carolina

Maybe anyone who thinks landing HG's on wheels is not a good idea or not macho should also consider the negative image of the "crash" helmet as well

It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and to forget his own.

- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Dave Hopkins - 2014/01/25 03:10:31 UTC

I have to admit I landed on my wheels with my VR all but one flight this year.That one I didn't want to mess up a bunch of corn. The rest of the time I flew for so long, so far and was so tired and always had a really smooth grassy LZ I said screw it and flew it in on the wheels always ready to flare if needed.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:43:09 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

I flew flexi XC for 25 yrs and never thought of putting wheels on, except for areo towing.I was probably a no wheels snob. But here I am landing on wheels with a 140 lbs of gear and don't really care who thinks what. I flew without wheels for my own reasons and I land on them for my own reasons. It's all good ! I don't believe I ever told anyone they shouldn't fly with wheels I had my own reasons why I shouldn't.

xchawk - 2014/01/25 04:01:03 UTC
SE Minnesota

Wheel Landings

Hey just a thought I have been flying Hang gliders on and off for 30 years and have had my share of good landings and a few bad. During that time I also flew Sailplanes, a Superfloater and a Millennium The last 3 I never had a bad landing the only difference landing on wheels. I know lots of 55yo-60yo and older sailplane pilots that never have a problem with landings. My 58yo shoulders still work and I still want to fly Hang Gliders but no way do I want to risk another shoulder injury because of one mistimed landing. There has to be a safe and friendly way to land a Hang Glider without dragging your harness in the dirt and without the risk of nosing in. Just my 2 cents worth...

1. Design and/or amend the fuckin' harnesses with fuckin' skid plates. That should be the case anyway. The way it is now and always has been the asshole manufacturers are designing harnesses on the assumption that no one's ever gonna deliberately or inadvertently roll or belly in.

2. There's ALWAYS gonna be a RISK of nosing in - just as is the case with Cessnas. But it's always gonna be minimized by wheel landings. Go to any flight park and watch what happens with the tandems and solos if you don't believe me.

Dave Hopkins - 2014/01/25 05:38:38 UTC

Flare timing is probably more critical on a HG then most aircraft.

Bullshit. It's just that no other aircraft use a whipstall to a dead stop as a routine/standard landing technique.

all aircraft have their flare signals.

Fly them until they decide to stop flying.

I think the intensity of foot landing makes pilots so tense they miss the subtle clues , and are usually too late or inefficient in their flares.

Yeah. It's a difficult, dangerous, scary technique and the psychological issues are fuckin' HUGE. And that's NEVER gonna change as long as you have humans flying these things.

Good understanding of technique and practice with a good instructor can help make us more relaxed...

Yeah. Go to one of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 07:01:39 UTC
Why would CSS want that when his last landing clinic resulted in a broken arm to one of his students?

...Ryan's clinics. You'll be fine.

...and focused.

And get one of those little red rubber FOCUSED PILOT wristbands from USHGA. Can't miss.

Most modern gliders land really well.

If you let them.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30681
Wheel landings are for F@*'s .. NOT FTW

Allen Sparks - 2014/01/25 15:16:35 UTC

u go Rotor !

Rotor goes too far. He really doesn't need any more encouragement.

Last December, my right knee joint was replaced with an implant. Within two weeks, I'll begin rehab on a second knee replacement.

The wheels in the photo below:

I can hardly see the wheels in the photo above. Get some sun on them or shoot when it's overcast or the sun is really low.

...will allow me to fly (via scooter tow and aerotow, on smooth terrain)

Which is where everybody should be landing anyway.

...even when I can't walk so well.

Once I've gained enough mobility and strength to resume foot launches and landings, I'll set these wheels aside, but I won't rule out the possibility of using them in the future.

My wheel inventory now includes High Perspective 'M&Ms', Whoosh wheels, Northern Tool 12" pneumatics, and now ...
the Flying Launch Cart, designed and built by Gregg Ludwig.

I've deliberately used my wheels to land a half dozen times in the past decade, and I'm not ashamed of it.

Not ashamed of using your wheels to land a half dozen times in the past decade or not ashamed of NOT using your wheels to land all the other times?

Ironically, the one time I didn't put wheels on a glider in the past eight years, I screwed up, whacked, and tore my rotator cuff.

1. That ain't irony, Allen. That's pure unadulterated Murphy.

2. You screwed up when you launched without wheels. The timing error you made on landing was so microscopic it doesn't bear mentioning.

3. You DID NOT *WHACK*. The nose very slowly floated down and gently settled well after the damage had been done.

4. The damage was all done at THIS:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


instant. Nothing that can happen afterwards - with the possible exception of snakebite - matters.

5. Put the fuckin' video back up so people can see just how little it takes to wreck a fair chunk of one's life with one of these stupid landings.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30681
Wheel landings are for F@*'s .. NOT FTW

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2014/01/25 16:35:19 UTC

The entire wheel issue regarding hang gliding is just lost to me.

The addition of wheels is a pure safety issue.

'Cept in aerotowing. As long as you have a Davis Link on one end of your bridle you're good for anything that can hit you.

As time goes by and weight increases in hang gliders there use increased, especially among the more advanced pilots.

Goddam right. The people good and smart enough to have survived the effects of their training and figured out that the foot landing is a losing game.

Just look at the average age of pilots... over the years it has gone up not down.

In no small part because we've wiped out so many new and up and coming pilots with broken arms as sole consequences of foot landing focus and practice.

I admit enjoy hang gliding for a lot of its cowboy image. Flying sailplanes in a soaring club its just funny the looks i get when I discuss flying hang gliders. Yet aside for better performance, rudders and dive brakes they are very similar.

Goddam right. Start treating hang gliders as what they are - weight shift controlled, car top portable sailplanes.

Safety equipment is encouraged in most of GA ...only in Hang Gliding do you find "landing only on your feet and wheels are for whoosies in conversations.

That's because hang gliding is a refuge for dregs like Rooney and his followers and harmonizers who'd have no possibility whatsoever of making it through REAL aviation ground school theory and testing.

Its 2014, HGing has been going on as a part of aviation for over 40 years, Th future of gliders has bifurcated into light easy to use trainers and hi performance wings. There is such a small market that we should not expect big R&D investments from the few manufacturers that are still around.

Hang gliders themselves evolved to the maximum point possible while still being defined as hang gliders a dozen or more years ago. So now the emphasis is on beginner and mid performance recreational gliders.

And, of course, in deference to the flight parks, dealerships, instructors, national organizations the manufacturers will forever continue to avoid doing anything in the way of building safe, sailplane quality releases into their gliders and specifying weak link ratings like the fuckin' plague.

Lets just make room for wheels and incorporate them in as a standard tool for gliding.

Don't make them *A* standard tool. Gear gliders, harnesses, wheels, skids for conventional fixed wing aircraft landings and NOTHING ELSE. Make the assholes who wanna land in sagebrush and narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place the fringe element.

Wayne Ripley - 2014/01/25 17:35:24 UTC
Cromwell, Connecticut

Wheel landings

I to have have wheels for year's and I still think it's a good idea to land on them every once in a while just to know it's an option. Having said that Having a Go pro has helped my landings a great deal,what I noticed was I was not rolling up soon enough.

Have you noticed anything about your writing?

I think you need about 10 sec between roll up and flare. I was ground skimming to flare and there just is not enough time to get "set" for the flare. Any thoughts?

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

http://ozreport.com/8.133
The European Championships at Millau

Gerolf Heinrichs - 2004/06/24

Bad news from the Europeans in Millau - and it's not just about the weather!

This is the major hang gliding event of the season and was expected to be the highlight of the European competition flying. Due to a most competent organising team around meet director Richard Walbec everybody expected only the very best from it.

Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.

- You can get killed doing that.

http://vimeo.com/36062225


- It IS quite possible to only transition in the last two seconds if you MUST - or feel you MUST - stop on your feet.

- Nobody needs to land or should be landing in environments in which a foot landing is necessary to avoid damage and/or injury.

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/25 18:30:19 UTC

Re: Wheel landings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eso5xNfnHxg


based on those from the time i transistion to when my feet hit the ground is about 9 seconds

1. I'd feel a whole lot better about somebody responding to a post titled "Wheel landings" if he at least actually had wheels on his basetube.

2. But I notice you've got a backup carabiner between your harness suspension and parachute bridle so I guess you've got all the safety margin you'll ever need.

3. If you always hook in with your carabiner moving aft to fore you won't end up with a half twist in your suspension.

4. I like the way on the one day, 2013/12/27, you weren't absolutely positive you were connected to your glider you actually check to see that you're connected to your glider just prior to launch - despite the false sense of security that gives you.

5. Yeah, Jason, when you're doing sled runs in light glassy air within a few days of the winter solstice at Ed Levin you can get away with coming in on the downtubes and foot landing until hell freezes over.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

NMERider - 2014/01/25 04:25:08 UTC

Our very own Skydog [recorded]* a bad one where he missed his flare and his wheels dug in and made the situation much worse. Case in point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4XbeBamKY


* originally I wrote [had] in error. Correction by michael170
-
Last edited by NMERider on 2014/01/26 05:51:45 UTC; edited 1 time in total

Jeez, Jonathan...

- With all the flak there was about that one...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29129
Safety Note; Don't let this hapen to You.

...and you thought it was Bob Grant in the video?

- And that's supposed to be an example of wheels making the result of a landing effort worse? Like this bullshit:

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1099
Tragedy in the L/Z

Joe Greblo - 2008/08/30 03:40:21 UTC

Jeff Craig was killed today when he crashed on approach to landing near the Kagel LZ. The accident occurred at around 15:20 during a low approach into the wash LZ. He struck a boulder in the riverbed and sustained serious injuries. Club members arrived on scene quickly and Alex Wright and Foster Winter administered CPR until paramedics arrived. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

The exact cause of the accident is not known as some witnesses said that it appeared that Jeff simply did not let the bar out as he toward the rocks. It was estimated that he hit at over 30 mph by one Hang Four witness.

is supposed to be an example of a pilot being killed because he was...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News

NMERider - 2009/10/01 22:31:04 UTC

We had a Sylmar pilot die from massive head injuries last summer when he got drilled into the ground by sink while he was still prone. His helmet covered head struck a boulder.

...landing prone in the "LZ"?

Davis Straub - 2014/01/25 04:31:14 UTC

Let me make this perfectly clear:

HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY

This is, it won't save you from yourself every single time. It is like health insurance, a policy reducing risk, or in this case reducing the likelihood of injury.

Like a Davis Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

Stacks the deck in your "favour". No real downsides...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

Just a bit of inconvenience every now and then.

michael170 - 2014/01/26 03:19:45 UTC

As a point of clarification, that is not Skydog in the video.
Here is a clip of Skydog landing on his wheels:

6:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfETeRUQC0o

Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/01/26 04:36:49 UTC

Wheels are great, they allow me to land without jeopardizing my already messed up knee.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1542/25648044624_0566ac9ee8_o.jpg


On the other hand I'd love to land on my feet if I could get a guarantee that someone would pay my living expenses while I'm stuck in a wheelchair (you know, cuz landing on wheels is the pussy way of doing it).

Now if I have no choice but to foot land I will but for the most part I'm rolling it in, so there.

F@g. G@#l.