landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893
Fingers

Ultralajt - 2014/01/27 06:53:37 UTC

Could gloves prevent that injury somehow to happens in such magnitude?

I dunno. Any thoughts on wheel engineering that doesn't totally suck?

Gordon Marshall - 2014/01/27 15:25:17 UTC

wow, $10,000 !!! someone likes cashing in on your misfortune.

What do you expect?

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3398
A broken humerus, guess the cost.

Orion Price - 2012/07/16 06:39:18 UTC

It was almost 70k. 68 and change. Just for the surgery.

A finger is such a small part of the body but I bet it hurts like hell, I hope you feel better soon.
I hate to say it but I was crap at landing, single handedly kept the aluminium company in business.
The local hang gliding dealer would rub his hands together when I showed up, worse still, I noticed him rubbing his hands together.
I learnt how to land.
Wheels are definitely NOT for sissies, they are an essential insurance policy for a mistake...

Bullshit. Legs are insurance policies for idiots who are unwilling and/or unable to identify and land in appropriate fields.

...furthermore glider manufacturers should have skid potential built into the 'A' frame so that touching the corner does not end in tears.

Remember what you just said about the local hang gliding dealer rubbing his hands together when you showed up? Just how much motivation do you think the manufacturers have for making gliders safe to belly, skid, wheel land?

The real crux of the problem is education and, as it appears,--- peer apathy.

The real crux of the problem is...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...hang gliders cannot be safely foot landed by regular recreational flyers in the short run and highly skilled fanatics in the long run.

You have spent all that time and effort in learning how to enjoy the freedom of the air, it would only make sense to go that one step further and spend some quality time learning how to land.

Sorry. That ain't my idea of quality time. That ain't really ANYBODY's idea of quality time. If it were people wouldn't need to be pressured to do it.

Those wheels will not be your friend in a lumpy LZ...

Lumpy LZs ain't your friend neither - regardless of how proficient you are at foot landing.

...they will destroy that beautiful carbon fibre 'A' frame in a nano second and have your head kissing your nose plate.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

When you look forward to landing, when you relish the thought of swooping down in ground effect to pop it up into a no step, then you will be free of the wheel dependancy.

Bullshit.

1. spend some quality time and trim the glider to min sink. THEN---
2. keep the wings level (into wind, cross wind, down wind, doesn't matter the most important thing is-- WINGS LEVEL)
3. round out, level off, wings level, trading airspeed for altitude, allow the aircraft to come to trim and flare. if you climb--FLARE HARDER!
4. did I mention keeping the wings level??
Have I made it sound too simplistic? it is, but its the hardest damn thing to do until invest in yourself.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

I really do wish you a speedy recovery and hope that you will be back flying real soon.

NMERider - 2014/01/27 20:10:09 UTC

Well-said Gordo. From my personal POV, the sad thing about landing discussions whether on bulletin boards or face-to-face in the LZ is they seldom seem to result in any tangible and lasting improvement among the flying community. Please prove my observation wrong. I wish it wasn't so.

This bullshit has been going on since the beginning of hang glider foot landings. Maybe it's time for an entirely different strategy.

I have custom-made over-sized Delrin skids on the very corners of my T2C carbon fiber speedbar. They partially cover the aluminum corner brackets to avoid cracking the control bar in an impact.

Why is someone with your experience and skill worried about an impact? Didn't Gordo just say:

When you look forward to landing, when you relish the thought of swooping down in ground effect to pop it up into a no step, then you will be free of the wheel dependancy.

They are also slippery enough and just tall enough to land on if it's a groomed surface like a soccer field, etc.

Which is the kind of surface on which you do the vast majority of landings - even with a huge percentage being XC.

I really should make them even taller and round the front end better.

So why isn't Wills Wing doing this engineering and making it available?

In the end I used video footage of just two pilots to create my own practice regimen to learn how to land reasonably well and I now do for the most part.

Oh. For the MOST PART. (Paying attention here, Gordo?)

But the regimen I used I made for me and to suit my style and this is where most discussions fail and fail miserably.

Definition of insanity...

Landing technique must match each individual pilot and his or her particular physical/mental make-up. The notion of a one-size-fits-all technique and set of instructions has in my observation failed.

In stark contrast to the astounding success of...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png


...tug driver dictated one-size-fits-all aerotow weak links.

And the failure of the so-called mentors and instructors to recognize this is worse than a failure. It is a disaster.

Anybody in particular...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

...in mind?

If Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is that full of shit in his capacity as the Patron Saint of Landing is there any possibility that he's equally full of shit in his capacity as the Patron Saint of Aerotowing?

Just my 2p of course. I'm always happy to be proven wrong in cases like this.

How many more decades of doing the same things over and over and expecting better results do you think we need?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Fletcher - 2014/01/27 03:36:19 UTC

OK boys and girls here's my 2 cents worth
Landing on wheels is a blast!
First time was a tandem tow at a flight park, greased it in.
Second time was a very low approach to a distant LZ with a fence and lawn, no room to go upright and greased it in again on Wills Wing wheels. Saved my ass.
Later on an eight day flying vacation I stepped in a hole landing on the first day and pulled a leg muscle.
The rest of the vacation was salvaged by landing on large training wheels.
Not once did I feel those landings were dangerous, in fact all were necessary for safe landing.
I expect that someday when I'm no longer able to safely foot land I'll be rolling it in every flight.

NOBODY can safely foot land.

Fly High
Land However You Like

DO NOT land however you like. We need sanctions against people who do stupid shit with gliders. The individual asshole who breaks his arm doing stupid shit isn't the only one who pays a price.

Rodger Hoyt - 2014/01/27 23:10:03 UTC

Western US sagebrush country: you better learn to land on your feet if you have any aspirations of XC. Ditto for lava lands.

Fuck anybody who has aspirations of landing in sagebrush and/or lava fields. And double fuck anybody who's teaching foot landings on the pretense that that's something that a pilot should, will need to, might do.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

JJ Coté - 2014/01/28 01:59:52 UTC

If you're planning to land on wheels (as opposed to having them there to lessen the consequences if something unexpected happens), use wheels that are up to the task.

I was there to see the wheel failure in the video. The pilot (wisely) dealt with his injury rather than examining the equipment right away, and he was initially under the impression that the wheel had deflated. What actually happened was that a plastic piece that's essentially a big snap ring came loose, allowing the wheel to bounce around freely on the control bar.

Despite the fact that these are pretty large pneumatic wheels, my impression is that the hub design is not adequate for intentional wheel landings. There exist wheels that are good enough, as an obvious example, the beefy landing gear found on many tandem gliders.

Steve Davy - 2012/10/18 06:29:45 UTC

Hang gliding isn't ready for the revolutionary concept of the wheel.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893
Fingers

Gordon Marshall - 2014/01/28 01:18:38 UTC

The very first thing that must be addressed in the LZ regarding landing technique is ego, there must first and foremost be a genuine desire to help and a genuine desire to learn.

Would that also apply to the runway at an aerotow operation and the and the douchebags with their asses slung in Dragonfly seats?

After two years of running a flying school it has become abundantly clear that the laws of physics remain the same regardless of race, creed or location.

Or, at the aforementioned aerotow runway...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...glider flying weight or capacity.

A sound understanding of the laws of physics that are involved throughout the landing procedure is essential for each individual to work towards a common goal.

One point bridle - nothing to trim the nose down and the pilot is pulled forward of the basetube to the extent that he frequently needs to stuff the bar in the course of a normal tow just to stay down level with the tug.

255 pound glider using a standard aerotow weak link that blows at around 260 pounds or a little over twice normal towline tension.

Tug hits a monster thermal below a hundred feet.

Glider hits the thermal several seconds later and goes into a steep climb.

If one has a sound understanding of the laws of physics...

- Can one predict what's likely to happen in the course of the next few seconds?

- Are there any alternatives one could use in the tow system to make what's likely to happen in the course of the next few seconds less likely to happen?

What does your sound understanding of the laws of physics tell you about the "design" of the very popular and very very reliable bent pin barrel release?

Each individual must address their own landing demons and eventually they learn not to panic during the landing phase, given time and sound coaching they will be able to recognise each and every phase of the landing for what it is and apply the appropriate inputs.

Take your sound understanding of physics and shove it up your ass.

Jim Rooney - 2014/01/28 10:32:59 UTC

NMERider - 2014/01/27 20:10:09 UTC

From my personal POV, the sad thing about landing discussions whether on bulletin boards or face-to-face in the LZ is they seldom seem to result in any tangible and lasting improvement among the flying community. Please prove my observation wrong. I wish it wasn't so.

Yes and no really.

Oh. Your intellect is keen enough to divine that he was talking about the Patron Saint of Landing and his utterances carved in Wiki-stone.

The crux is that landing discussion isn't the answer. It's part of the answer, but it's not the answer itself.

And it's DEFINITELY not ANY part of the answer...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

...in any matter concerning aerotowing. Most people are just supposed to be happy with the way YOU do things because you're...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

...PROFESSIONAL PILOTS...

The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

...and we're just a bunch of muppets who lack a single percent of the experience to be able to understand an explanation of what YOU have sussed out.

The trouble is that learning to land takes time and effort.

What percentage of student landings are botched in conventional aviation training? How 'bout when an aerotow operation is breaking in a new asshole to fly the Dragonfly?

Talk on the other hand is cheap and easy. So people prefer talking and leave it at that.

Right. Same with launching, dune flying, thermalling, towing, XC, aerobatics.

The next bit that mucks things up is that so few out there, even people that can land well, weren't taught how to do so.

Yeah, that "sentence" makes sense.

Some have worked it out, generally through a lot of trail and error, but they were never taught it.

Trail and error...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/13 15:02:38 UTC

Can you explain, then, exactly how we arrived at the current 130 lb weak link standard?

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC

It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.

Every now and then someone comes along with the "new" idea of a stronger weaklink. Eventually, they scare themselves with it and wind up back with one that has a very proven track record. I mean really... no exaggeration... hundreds of thousands of tows.

Say what you will, but if you want to argue with *that* much history, well, you better have one hell of an argument... which you don't.

...was how the Founding Fathers of Aerotowing worked out that we should have a standard aerotow weak link consisting of a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot. What's wrong with that? I can certainly think of nothing better.

The trouble with that is that they consequently don't know how to teach it.

Right. They worked it out through trail and error so consequently they don't know how to teach it. Just like the standard aerotow weak link was worked out through trail and error and nobody knows how to explain how or why. That seems to be the pattern with trail and error.

Compare/Contrast with Wilbur and Orville. They used and developed...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

...THEORY to get their plane in the air on 1903/12/17. They then explained the theory such that anybody with half a brain or better could understand it and in under two dozen years - about the length of time Quallaby Air Ranch has been perfecting aerotowing - Lindbergh took a product of that theory and flew it nonstop to Paris.

It is from this school of thought that we get the "just feel it man" type of approach.

Versus the...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

..."Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality." type of approach.

"When do you flare?" is answered with "when the glider's out of energy" (I've never seen an energy meter on a glider!) or "when it feels right" (I don't know what glider you're flying, but mine feels like aluminum).

You're right - as usual. Our sensations and perceptions regarding wind feel and sound, glider responsiveness, ground speed, distance from the surface, windsocks, ribbons, leaf and grass motion, dust... All totally useless.

No, landing can be taught and it can be taught well.

How do birds ever manage without you? How did the first archaeopteryx manage to survive beyond the first six weeks?

I've had plenty of success in doing so.

Hard to imagine anything that somebody with an intellect as keen as yours HASN'T had plenty of success with.

My methods are not rocket science but they take time and effort...

...and glassy smooth air and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

...an airpark grade putting green...

...to learn. The results speak for themselves.

Any chance you can document these results for us? Are any of your success stories landing at places other than primary or XC putting greens?

There are others out there with similar stories. I'm not special (just vocal)...

BULLSHIT.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

Your opinion is better than anything a million comp pilots could put together on the best of days.

...and you will find a common thread with all of us... you learn how.

Gonna say anything, Jonathan?

It is something that is taught. Simply practicing doesn't do it... if you don't know what to practice in the first place, all you do is reinforce failure.
I call it the "Stumbling around in the dark school of learning".

So trail and error really sucks for learning to land but can't be beat for developing aerotow equipment and procedures - in conjunction, of course, with only considering your own opinions and studiously ignoring anything remotely resembling theory and data.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893
Fingers

NMERider - 2014/01/28 18:04:33 UTC

This is the summary of weaknesses in words alone I was hoping you would cull out from your wealth of KSA.

This started out as a thread about finger protection for wheeled landings and I really enjoy doing wheeled landings even if I don't need to be doing them. They are fun in the same way as taking that running leap over the edge of some snow-covered hill with sled in hands when I was a kid.

In Davis' mile-long thread about landings there was a fundamental aspect that you brought to my awareness that wheeled landing help me overcome. The issue of diving at the ground in order to arrive in ground skim with sufficient airspeed. This is something I lacked in my foot-landing technique but knew I had to overcome for wheeled landings. If I'm too slow through the gradient for a wheeled landing I'm far more likely to go in face-first. Not pretty. Wheeled landings got me accustomed to coming into ground effect through the gradient with enough airspeed for good control needed to set up a more consistent flare. Not perfect but more consistent, more fun and safer.

This is the summary of weaknesses in words alone I was hoping you would cull out from your wealth of KSA.

Good job, Jonathan. Let Putting Green Boy know what a valuable asset to the hang gliding community he is. His head was only up his ass about a foot and a half before.

This started out as a thread about finger protection for wheeled landings...

To anybody with half a brain or better this started out as a thread about another pretty horrible injury sustained as a consequence of really shitty industry engineering.

...and I really enjoy doing wheeled landings even if I don't need to be doing them.

Nobody NEEDS to be doing them, Jonathan. How many more wheelchair cases do we need to put up in the air to end that discussion?

They are fun in the same way as taking that running leap over the edge of some snow-covered hill with sled in hands when I was a kid.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26892
What is the point of hang gliding instruction?

Bill Jacques - 2012/03/09 01:53:20 UTC

The main reason why I quit - never felt really secure regarding landing without injury.
And that was after FIVE YEARS of flying.

Bill J.

PS. Never skied before. Skiing out here in Aspen for only three months and I am already at groomed black diamonds. Why? Because I feel "in control" and know I can always stop, or even fall, without injuring myself.

They're FUN.

In Davis' mile-long thread about landings there was a fundamental aspect that you brought to my awareness that wheeled landing help me overcome. The issue of diving at the ground in order to arrive in ground skim with sufficient airspeed.

You mean like THIS?:

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


Must've had some kind of time machine in order to travel several years into the future to benefit the Patron Saint of Landing's acute Knowledge, Skills, Abilities so generously bestowed on us in Davis's mile long thread about landings.

This is something I lacked in my foot-landing technique but knew I had to overcome for wheeled landings. If I'm too slow through the gradient for a wheeled landing I'm far more likely to go in face-first. Not pretty. Wheeled landings got me accustomed to coming into ground effect through the gradient with enough airspeed for good control needed to set up a more consistent flare.

Like you weren't quite able to get HERE:

027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png


http://live.staticflickr.com/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
047-03703

So you're worried about coming through the gradient to slow, stalling, and going in face first. But you're totally cool getting pro toad with a Rooney Link and the possibility of hitting a monster thermal or dust devil, with or without warning, because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.

...YOU - unlike Zack Marzec - have RESOLVED to be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation. And because...

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

...you appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not that of the FAA or guy who's ass is on the line you have also resolved that everyone else will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.

Not perfect but more consistent, more fun and safer.

Un fucking believable. Next time you're sticking your nose up Rooney's ass could you fire up the GoPro so's we can see how he manages with his head and all those noses simultaneously?

Jim Rooney - 2014/01/28 18:23:49 UTC

Too right NME

Wiggle your nose a bit, Jonathan. He really gets off on the sensation.

As a tandem pilot in NZ, we did wheel landings as a rule.

On the occasions upon which...

The Press - 2006/03/15

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

...you made it all the way down to the LZ.

There are also precious few solo gliders to fly. So, my first year over I wondered how badly my first footlanding would go after so many wheel landings... to my surprise, they got better?!

You mean the more you practice doing landings like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

1-2717
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png
6-4518

the less likely you are to fuck up like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c


when you opt for a stunt landing?

You're right, that dive into ground effect is critical.

Let's call it the Rooney Dive - in honor of the first person to become aware of its importance.

Going back to wheels on a rigid...
I do like footlanding rigids. I won't lie. They actually flare easier, but the penalty for error is higher... in both senses of the word.
That's a lot of weight up there. If it comes crashing down, it's coming down. It's also expensive stuff that's hard to repair... so damage is both costly and time consuming. There are many reasons to learn to footland them and to learn well, but there are just as many reasons to wheel land them.

Sounds to me a lot like there are absolutely no reasons whatsoever...

Erik Boehm - 2014/01/24 09:46:31 UTC

Wheeling it in on an atos seems like a bad idea.

...to learn to foot land them and foot land them well. If you're more likely to crash "learning" to foot land than you are as a consequence of not having learned to foot land then the arithmetic is pretty simple.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30705
What is the tightest LZ you have landed in ?

CAL - 2014/01/29 13:59:16 UTC
Ogden

What is the tightest LZ you have landed in ?

LZ? Field? Barely survivable patch?
An LZ is a regular Landing Zone. They are not - by definition - particularly tight. 'Cause if they were they wouldn't be LZs for very long.

i think it would be fun to see and hear about everyone's tightest landing, even if it was not that tight

Different question. You just opened the responses up to lucky motherfuckers who've survived coming down in anything you wanna name.
How 'bout instead asking people what percentage of their landings occur in wheel hostile environments?

i think this would be very informative...

No. It's like asking what's the lightest weak link you've ever gotten to altitude with or what's the most mouse chewed hang strap you've ever completed a flight with. It doesn't give us any useful information.

...and fun !

Possibly.

i will share some of mine through videos tonight after going through them

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/29 14:31:40 UTC

tightest I landed in with any regularity was the "postage stamp" at Horse Canyon, 3 sided surround by 6' tall brush, downhill into the wind, 100yds on a side.

So if that's the tightest LZ a testosterone poisoned asshole like you has ever landed in then what's the point of requiring someone to three times consecutively foot land within twenty-five feet of a traffic cone in the middle of some five hundred acre putting green?

i landed my t2c in a clearing on the side of whitney portal once, cross slope primarly downwind, 17' long skid mark from my keel as I ran full flare, it was barely more than a wingspan wide with electrical boxes and shit sticking up, appears to be paved over now.

Not the least bit interested in the stupid shit people can occasionally get away with.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30705
What is the tightest LZ you have landed in ?

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2014/01/30 00:17:13 UTC

The field was about a half mile square... but I landed in the sweet spot I picked that was just fifty yards from the perimeter of the field.

I have also pulled on full vg and "burned it in", traveling over three hundred feet over freshly mown grass just for the fun of it.

I'd rather not bet a trip to the hospital on my ability to do a spot landing while being tired and under pressure of overshooting. There are plenty of good fields to land in, don't pick a crappy one just for bragging rights. There are plenty of things that can go wrong during a landing. There is no need to add to the list.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Davis Straub - 2014/01/25 04:31:14 UTC

Let me make this perfectly clear:

For...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

...something new and different.

HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY

Which is exactly what pilots of conventional fixed wing aircraft consider their wheels to be. "This is your captain speaking. We'll be touching down in another couple minutes and I've decided to put the gear down. Not that we're likely to need it but ya never really know for sure."

This is, it won't save you from yourself every single time.

You mean like if you come in high with a fifteen mile an hour tailwind and overshoot? No shit. Who'da thunk.

It is like health insurance, a policy reducing risk, or in this case reducing the likelihood of injury.

Ever consider using a release...



http://ozreport.com/pub/images/Jrs_2010.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...you'd be capable of blowing in an emergency, a bridle...

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=17632


...which would allow you to hold the nose down if you needed to, and/or a weak link...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...which would allow you the option of electing to stay on tow when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation? Just kidding.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

You're pushing your envelope with the concept of wheels being "health insurance".

Pigfucker.

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/30 02:53:13 UTC

NMERider should have taken your advice.

Everybody should take Davis's advice. Lotsa times...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://ozreport.com/2013USNationalsrules.php
2013 US Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Appropriate aerotow bridles

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here: http://OzReport.com/9.039#0 and http://ozreport.com/9.041#2.

Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

...they don't have any choice.

I wonder if wheels whould have saved him a hospital ride today.

Depends a lot on whether he would've been using them as landing gear or health insurance.

I hope he has good insurance.

I hope he has a good video - and posts it.

Dave Hopkins - 2014/01/30 03:13:59 UTC

An insurance policy won't save you from hurting yourself . It might save you from having to pay for hurting yourself or get you better care.

Yeah. Making analogies is one of just many things Davis totally sucks at.

Wheels might save us from hurting but it's better not to count on them.They quite often fail.

They don't fail one percent as frequently as standup landing attempts do.

Intentionally landing on them is safer then hoping they will roll after we have screwed up a flare.

Goddam right - 'cept the word is "THAN".

The weird angles that we come down at often cancels out their effectiveness.

Right after you shove the nose up close to twice the angle specified it the placard limitations? Do ya think?

If you really need wheels go with the big training wheels.

If you REALLY need wheels don't fly. Everything's a tradeoff but you can probably get through a career safely on something in the neighborhood of eight inch pneumatic Finsterwalders or a good pair of skids. In any case it's a no brainer that you're a helluva lot more likely to get through a career safely always landing an modest wheels than you can always going for foot landings.

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/30 03:53:15 UTC

uh oh...what happened

A mysterious cosmic force has disabled shift keys and made it impossible to use normal punctuation. Fortunately it's only affecting the hardware of people with IQs in the low single digits.

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/30 04:20:07 UTC

I was in the air when it happened so I didn't see it. I landed after the emergency crew cleared the LZ.

Oh. It was the LZ. I was thinking it was a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

I was told he went straight in on final with his drogue.

Did he NEED his drogue to get into the LZ? I'm of the persuasion that those things are emergency equipment that should be reserved for emergency XC situations - after a bit of practice in safe conditions anyway.

His glider looked like he hit hard. Broke both downtubes and the base tube on his T2C.

Jason Boehm - 2014/01/30 04:25:02 UTC

any word on injuries?

Better Jason. Now try holding the shift key down while you type the first letter in the sentence.

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/30 04:32:01 UTC

I haven't heard anythin. I heard he was yelling call 911 its a spinal injury but It's hard to tell if it's serious with Jonathan he is always a drama queen.

1. Speaking of people with IQs in the low double digits.
2. Yeah, most people who hit hard enough to total their control frames and sustain spinal injuries and yell to call 911 are drama queens.

I heard he left in good spirit and was smiling.

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

But he began losing consciousness as he awaited the arrival of paramedics.

Aucklander Stephen Elliot, 48, was taking part in the Forbes Flatland Hang Gliding Championship in Sydney last Saturday (2009/01/03) when he landed (dolly launched) badly.

Elliot shattered four bones in his neck and damaged several blood vessels that supplied blood to the brain. He was flown to the Royal North Shore Hospital in Sydney and put into an induced coma but died on Monday.

Jack Barth - 2014/01/30 05:27:05 UTC

You break a base tube you hit hard! Hope he's back in the air soon.

Don't hold your breath. And...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13545
tow accidents

Brian Horgan - 2009/11/01 17:18:06 UTC

if you dont fly then shut the fuk up.

...it's a real bummer that he won't have anything worthy of contributing to any discussions for a while at least.

Let's all pray that he just makes a partial recovery so...

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/23 20:21:59 UTC

Unless you have a medical reason you are a shity pilot if you can't land on your feet. Wheels are for Falcons!

...he'll be permitted to use wheels without being considered a shity pilot or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

...a girl.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

So did you adopt something like that, Jonathan?

I hope you make a full recovery but people seldom do with a lot of these sorts of injuries. At least try to make a good recovery.

And if you recover well enough to fly again and thus earn permission from Brian to discuss what went wrong I'd like to know whether you were trying to make the safest landing possible or stop it on your feet to hone your skills for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

I'm guessing the latter and, if that's indeed the case, I'd like to know if you now think that any of that practice and any of those landings...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26847
Landing Out

NMERider - 2012/08/10 17:09:10 UTC

Be glad you don't fly XC where I do. It really sucks here in the LA Basin and I'm tired of all the hazards.

...were worth the cost you're now paying.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Jim Gaar - 2014/01/30 21:15:09 UTC

Honestly...

What the fuck would a sleazebag such as yourself know about honesty?

we knew it was coming did we not?

Yeah?

Tad Eareckson - 2013/01/22 05:21:02 UTC

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5659
Preflight people, please?

Danny Brotto - 2012/12/21 13:10:52 UTC

This is a cute video link posted on the ozreport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTDPeB55ek


Is it just me or is the gal's helmet not buckled? The straps seem to be blowing in the wind. I'm impressed that it stayed on!

And if it hadn't? What are the probabilities that the:
- flight will terminate in a crash?
- helmet would come off in a crash?
- helmet would be of any use in a crash?

And, of course, it's perfectly OK that neither of their helmets is a full face.

Preflight people!

1. The primary and "backup" releases are inaccessible pieces of shit with no load capacity.
2. The primary bridle is a skinny piece of shit designed to wrap at the bridle. In lockout simulations it does so over half the time.
3. The secondary bridle is a cheap overlength piece of shit with lotsa wrap potential.
4. If the secondary bridle wraps the glider driver has no means of releasing it.
5. The "backup" release isn't weak link protected. Consequently neither is the glider. And ditto on the tug.
6. The primary weak link is heavier than the tug's.
7. None of those Quest douchebags has a freaking clue as to the strengths of their weak links or even their purpose.
8. They're telling students that installing weak links on both ends of bridles doubles the towline tension required to blow them.
9. They're towing behind a tug that went out of control and killed a driver at Ridgely a year and a half ago and we still don't have a report.

Jon is a risk taker...

Was Zack Marzec a risk taker?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


How 'bout Ben Dunn?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

How 'bout anybody STUPID enough to hook up behind this pigfucker:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

or any of the assholes who had anything to do with his training and qualification?

...and he knows what he is getting into (usually) but I personally think he took too many risks no matter what...

Since when did you start thinking, Rodie?

- At this point we don't know shit about why this happened - and that's undoubtedly because people who do are sitting on information.

- In that vacuum my money's on him being upright when he didn't need to be and that he'd have been OK if he'd been and stayed prone.

- Motherfuckers who make statements like:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

need to be staked to ant hills and I don't see that happening to the extent it needs to.

- A regular hang gliding Joe who flew ten percent of the flights, hours, and XC miles that Jonathan does, especially in the environment he does...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26847
Landing Out

NMERider - 2012/08/10 17:09:10 UTC

Be glad you don't fly XC where I do. It really sucks here in the LA Basin and I'm tired of all the hazards.

...would have been killed ten times over by now.

- I've said that Jonathan ain't wrapped real tight but he's still wrapped at least five times tighter than your average hang gliding participant and within his limitations he was about nothing other than minimizing risk.

- He didn't get trashed in some fucking narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3858
Landing in the Big T wash

NMERider - 2013/04/05 21:09:27 UTC

There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.

He got trashed at the Kagel Primary putting green with a drag chute out.

Rest easy. Heal quickly.

Go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Mel Torres - 2014/01/30 21:26:42 UTC
Irvine

He was at our home LZ at Andy Jackson Airpark when this happened.

Make that AJX - a much more brain dead easy putting green.

I don't think this particular landing had anything to do with risk taking, (such as some of his XC landing out). I'm going to visit tomorrow afternoon. I'm sure he'll fill me on what went wrong. And if it's OK with him, I'll relay the details or better yet, he will.

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/30 22:29:29 UTC

Jonathan comments here:

http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/node/599

that he exceeded his limits doing an ultra steep drag chute landing. I have experienced similar results at altitude with a drag chute. In this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsAXUzloAZU


I was trying my hardest to get the glider to go right but I could only get it to fly straight at best. It wasn't until I slowed down that I regained control of the glider.

While we're on the subject of risk taking... Anybody wanna say anything about the absence of wheels?

http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/node/599
Wed Get It Early!

NMERider - 2014/01/29 19:35

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP
Great 2-hr flight until I exceeded my limits doing an ultra steep drag chute landing.

May have had nothing to do with foot landing but it WAS practice for landing in narrow dry narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Fractured C5 vertibrae in neck. Will be in Loma Linda for a while.
Thanks to everyone who kept me stabile and freed me from my gear!!

NMERider - 2014/01/29 20:51

DISREPUTABLE CONDUCT

Please read and preserve tbese posts
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=344469#344469

smokenjoe50 - 2014/01/30 02:53:13 UTC

NMERider should have taken your advice. I wonder if wheels whould have saved him a hospital ride today. I hope he has good insurance.

Got 'em.

Is this who we want in our club? I hope not. My neck is fractured and I read slanderous attacks. Kindly censure this black eye on our ckub.. Peer pressure and BOD action seems indicated.

He's obnoxious but there's nothing he can do to physically hurt you. Go to an aerotow operation controlled by the kind of scum that took over my club and you've got people who can kill you legally by squeezing a lever or illegally by violating FAA aerotowing regulations and never be held to a penny's worth of accountability.

SmokenJoe - 2014/01/29 21:27

You are such a baby. We all knew it was a mater of time. Your priority is putting down miles not landings. Maybe now you will realize the importance of good landing skills.

SmokenJoe - 2014/01/29 21:29

By the way I broke C1,C6, and C7. Your lucky to be walking.

NMERider - 2014/01/29 21:34

TRULY A BLACK EYE ON THE CLUB
Is this the type of club we want?
I hope the BOD and members stand up for what's right.

Sure, Jonathan. Just like people stood up for me when I tried to get existing sane rules for aerotowing enforced and new ones implemented.

SmokenJoe - 2014/01/29 21:43

Having 911 called because you can't land is bad for the club not me calling you a bitch.

Wallaby, Quest, Lockout, Ridgely, Hearne seem to do just fine with their 911 records.

whack - 2014/01/30 10:24

DAMN JOE?
What an Idiot Joe! Get your minds on something else...something productive....

SmokenJoe - 2014/01/30 07:59

Sorry but Jonathon's childish acts of bringing an argument from the org over to this forum and asking the BOD to take actions against me pissed me off.

Wanna know what really pisses me off?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

NMERider - 2014/01/30 08:24

I STAND BY WHAT I SAID

This uncalled for behavior is part of an ongoing pattern directed at a large portion of the club and not just me.

The club gives itself a black eye by tolerating it from ANY member. To publicaly attack a member who has a fractured neck and laying in the ER is appalling to say the least. For the club to turn a blind eye and shrug it off is equally appalling.

How 'bout when pretty much the whole fuckin' national population...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?

NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are. Pardon me while I puke.

...let those two motherfuckers get away with all that rot they had published in the national magazine?

SmokenJoe - 2014/01/30 08:43

We got it! No need to keep repeating yourself.

List the people who authorized you to speak on their behalf. I'm guessing whack was one who didn't.