landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30679
A good reason to wear gloves!

Dontsink - 2014/02/01 19:45:01 UTC

Wish you a speedy recovery JD!

And I wish him a one hundred percent recovery - but I'm not holding my breath.

NMERider - 2014/02/01 20:16:05 UTC

Thank you amigo! It felt so good to take a shower this morning and I'm getting used to wearing the cervical collar. In six weeks I see the spine surgeon to get prognosis for future.

Last night I had a dream that me and a friend from Sylmar hiked up to a new flying site and then we hiked down and both decided to go flying. I was wearing my cervical collar in the dream and knew I had this fractured neck and bulging discs but was going to fly anyway. Then I had to pee badly which woke me up. Evidently, I am hardly discouraged by this happening.

Wait a while. You will be.

In the future I will make some adjustments to my set of values with respect to my flying activities so that I am much less likely to have another episode like this one or worse.

Any chance of you spending some political capital and making any adjustments to THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.

bullshit? That'll do a thousand times more for the safety of the sport than equipping everyone and his dog with one of your drag chutes.

K C Benn - 2014/02/01 21:41:14 UTC
Ogden

Wow Jono My hope for you is a very speedy recovery.

What's your hope for Zack Marzec's speedy recovery and what are your thoughts on reducing the likelihood of a rerun?

I will pray for you !

And I'll offer my skills with Photoshop to get the x-rays looking normal.

I want to thank you for your research on drogue chutes.

Especially the low altitude test flying. The value we derive from that phase of development is proportional to the risk involved. It's a dirty job but...

It's people like you who have made hang gliding a safer sport.

Yeah.

http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/node/600
Jonathan Is Alive & Well

NMERider - 2014/01/31 21:57

I have a concussion, fractures in C5 & C6, bulging discs in C6 & C7, edema around my spinal cord and pinched nerve to my right index finger and surrounding fingers. I have analyzed my tracks and I hit the LZ at 22 mph while descending about 700 fpm. Around a 2.7:1 glide angle. My No Limit helmet took a lot of abuse and saved my face and part of my scalp.

Fer sure. Hard to help make the sport much safer on an individual effort than Jonathan just did without getting quaded or killed.

Don't beat yourself up. Remember hindsight is always 20/20.

Yeah? Who amongst us could've possibly predicted that diving into the ground with a descent rate of about 700 fpm at an angle of about 2.7 to one might be problematic? This has inspired me to think a bit about the wisdom of using 130 pound test fishing line to prevent the glider from being towed into a pitch attitude at which a dangerous stall can occur...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...after the point the limitation is achieved.

You are an excellent pilot...

If he's such an excellent fucking pilot...

027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png


http://live.staticflickr.com/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
047-03703

...how come he needs tug drivers and fishing line to determine whether or not he'll be able break the ten foot level on an aerotow?

...and other pilots may have an opinion but until they put the time and energy you have put into our sport their opinion will fall on my deaf ears.

GOOD.

And with a little bit of luck some of the OPINIONS out there that have foundations in physics, logic, common sense will fall on your dead body and we'll be able to take advantage of the teaching moment. You fly with a GoPro, right?

Reminds me a lot of:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

When someone tells me anything about hang gliding the absolute LAST things I wanna hear about are the time and energy they've put into the sport. ALTHOUGH...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Subj: Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
From: cloud9sa@aol.com
To: skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
cc: GreggLudwig@aol.com, lisa@lisatateglass.com

Hi Tad.

I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.

When they're the first things they start talking about it's INVARIABLY a no brainer that they're total dipshits and only worth listening to for the entertainment value...

Zack C - 2012/06/01 03:28:29 UTC

Weak link article

Tad,

The article is pretty big...apparently too big to post on the forum. I don't have time to fool with it right now so I'm just sending you the original...hope your mail server can handle it.

I'd love to comment on it, but I don't want to spoil it for you (it's that good).

...they'll inevitably provide.

GET WELL SOON.

Go fuck yourself - asshole.

Fletcher - 2014/02/02 00:10:12 UTC

The flying we do is constantly evolving due to pilots innovating and pushing the limits of ourselves and equipment.

BULLSHIT. Hang gliding is constantly evolving BACKWARDS.

- The gliders themselves hit a rock solid design/performance plateau well over a decade and a half ago. All we've been doing since is pouring money into them for tiny performance and weight advantages and making performance/handling tradeoffs.

- Harnesses are as clean as they're gonna get and that decrease in drag has come with safety compromises (inability to ball up with knees to the chest, tumble survivability) that nobody talks about.

- Electronics have gotten better but that's way more a byproduct of the computer revolution than anything coming out of hang gliding and would've happened anyway in the absence of hang and para gliding.

- Emergency parachute technology maxed out a couple of decades ago.

- Western towing equipment is TOTAL SHIT - and has been since the point well over thirty years ago when Donnell Hewett decided that a loop of fishing line would make the ideal emergency release.

- Hook-in checks went from being heavily promoted following every incident to coming under the most vicious of attacks at every mention.

- Flight training went from prone on Day One, Flight One to forced upright on the downtubes until after the Two has been signed off and a couple of four digit altitude flights.

- Published text book, articles, crash reports are all Pagen, Taber, Trisa caliber CRAP.

- Official crash reports have gone been pretty much extinct and tend to be works of total fiction on the rare occasions on which they DO make it into print.

- Discussion groups are all intellectually castrated and heavily censored and there's a strong trend making them inaccessible to anyone who doesn't have official permission to read them.

- Virtually nothing that gets into circulation is coming from individual pilots. It comes from The Industry or it doesn't happen.

- Aerotowing, where innovation is MOST needed and easily achieved and, in fact, currently available, is also the arena in which...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...it's most easily and effectively suppressed. Little Catch-22 thing going on there: If the innovation weren't so easily suppressed there wouldn't be such a desperate need for innovation. There are no Rooneys, Hagewoods, Tillettis controlling launches at Kagel, Crestline, Woodstock to prevent people from flying with Jonathan's drag chutes.

Jono is obviously one of the innovators.

Yeah. Who would've ever thunk of using a parachute...



...to reduce landing field length requirements?

Fuck Jonathan. He's using a goddam parachute to butcher thousands of dollars worth of glide performance to stop in fields people either should be able to handle with basic approach skills or shouldn't set up on in the first place.

I spend years developing equipment that:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8305308635/



- gets used on every single flight
- eliminates virtually all of the drag penalty of Industry Standard shit
- has off the scale performance capabilities
- will save lives of responsible pilots doing everything right in normal soaring environments

and bust my ass to make the technology globally available and you Jack and Davis Show...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13745
Good News vs Sad News

NMERider - 2009/10/01 22:31:04 UTC

IIRC - Tad has already worn out his welcome on the Oz Report over his AT release mechanism, and so it seems he has come here to preach his gospel of safety according to Tad. The prize of course will either be delivered by the HMS Beagle or can be found on the Gallapagos Islands.

...total douchebags do nothing but piss all over it and me.

Sorry for your injuries

Yeah, Jonathan. Who's talkin' Darwin Award NOW?

Heal Quickly and completely
Keep us posted on your progress

And DO get back in the air quickly and start posting some videos of yourself landing in places and conditions in which you REALLY NEED your drag chutes.

I'll take the Gospel of Safety According to T** at K*** S****** over anything anybody else has to offer any day of the week.

055-04709
http://live.staticflickr.com/3885/14422571978_d47ec5c921_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

Ya know what I think happened, Jonathan?

- You've been developing these really cool large diameter drag chutes which are only advantageous for stopping on postage stamps and having lotsa fun doing it and testing them.

- You wanted to get your stopping distances shorter and shorter - just like I get turned on by developing releases that are lighter and cleaner and have high load capacities and minimal actuation requirements.

- You were so focused on minimizing the stopping distance that you just flew your glider into the ground.

I think you broke your neck for pretty much the exact same reason that Dave Collins broke his neck at Hyner on 1989/07/03. He was so focused on hitting the goddam spot for his goddam Hang Three that he just flew his glider into the ground.

And whatever improvements you may have made to hang glider drag chute technology will never be able to balance out the damage you just did to yourself - and, for that matter, to the hang gliding scene - as a result of your involvement in this project. Exactly the way spot landing practice...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

...will never have a snowball's chance in hell of paying off enough to balance out 0.1 percent of the carnage it causes.

See Sara here?



There's a pretty good argument to be made that she survived the crash that killed her tandem pilot because of this release:

http://www.getoffrelease.com/


that I helped Joe Street develop.

You wanna do something to really benefit hang gliding?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 07:01:39 UTC

Why would CSS want that when his last landing clinic resulted in a broken arm to one of his students?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27262
Accident Reports

NMERider - 2012/10/04 06:17:04 UTC

In fact, by your insolence you have done more to reduce safety in this sport than anyone else I can think of in recent history. Your holier than thou attitude and general condescending attitude have been a bane to this forum and this sport for as long as I have returned.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?

NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are. Pardon me while I puke.

Beat up on scum like Rooney, Ryan, Trisa at every opportunity, not 'cause they're know-it-alls, arrogant, insolent, condescending, but because they're incompetent lying motherfuckers whose lies and manipulations get people killed and they have no place in this sport or any other civilized organization.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4330
Jonathan slammed-in at Crestline

NMERider - 2014/02/02 19:37:52 UTC

In the immortal words of The Great BudRob: "DQ was flying like a hero until he ate shit."

My new drag chute works so well that it allows me to safely perform maneuvers on my T2C that aren't even remotely possible without it. Unfortunately I got a little too wound up and decided to be a wise-guy and squeeze in between the shade structure and a friend who was walking her glider back to the breakdown area. I wanted to leave a wider margin for her and wound my base-leg turn an extra twenty degrees and then did a twenty degree S-reversal. I had not realized the ground was coming up so fast and only completed a partial round out from a 32 mph 3:1 angle to 22 mph 3:1 angle with my right hand up and left hand down.

I hit the control bar first which instantly exploded all three parts due to the shock force of my weight against the hang strap. Next, my chest impacted against my reserve cute and I slid a short distance before my Charly No Limit chin guard hit the grass causing it to flex enough to receive a Mike Tyson love tap to the jaw.

No long after this my face hit the inside of the visor digging my eyeglass bridge into the bridge of my nose. A nano-second or two later my forehead impacted the crushable foam liner of the helmet giving me a concussion. But wait--there's more!

The nose of my glider hit my helmet gouging the heck out of it and dragging the visor across the grass long enough to completely scratch every square inch. But wait--there's even more!

My body still had enough momentum to apply a considerable crushing load into my cervical spine. I could feel my vertebrae fracturing as it happened along with the gaps between bone being slammed together. Remember that right arm being up? Well, I wound up on my right side with what I thought was a broken arm.

I knew I had a spinal injury and raised my visor and yelled for 911 and stated I had spinal damage. Luckily, two of the pilots who ran out have had EMT or first aid training. One pilot was able remove my helmet without any pressure on my neck and then wedged my head firmly between his knees while another pilot held me down so I could not further injure my C-spine. We worked as a team to get the harness off with no trauma and then my outer layers of insulation.

Shortly thereafter, the EMTs arrived. Tish was the SBFD EMT who accompanied me during the ride to Lome Linda and did a bang-up job. <pun>. Robert was the RN on afternoon shift and was fantastic throughout my time in the ER.

I was given X-Rays and a CT-scan and they were going to discharge me since it only showed a non-displaced C5 fracture. I looked at the surgeon and clearly stated, "No fucking way! I have partial paralysis to my right hand and forearm and I could feel four vertebrae slamming together during the impact."

Another neurosurgeon came out and did an exam on my right hand and extremities. He corroborated what I described and ordered me an MRI for the next day.

Meanwhile it got to be 9PM and I had not had a pee since noon. Due to the trauma my body was flushing itself and I was now in more pain from my bladder and prostate than from my neck injuries. Unless I and standing or sitting girlie style on the commode I ain't going. I finally talked Robert into catheterizing me which he did admirably. The resulting flow was in excess of one quart. That's a hellofalotof pee backup.

By 10PM I was pretty darned light-headed and crabby. Can you imagine me ever being crabby? You know it must be pretty bad if mellow ole me is ever crabby. Naturally that was my middle-aged need for carbs kicking in since I had not eaten since 8AM. Robert came back from the cafeteria with two slices of pizza, a Gatorade and some fruit in a cup. While laying flat on my back I opened the Styrofoam containers and poured the pizza into my rotating shredder teeth of of now-tree shredding power.

I think I inhaled those delicious slices in less time than my auger-in lasted. By Friday I got the MRI results which told me what I already knew as recited in the OP. Hopefully, in six weeks I'll be able to go without the cervical collar and can get on with physical rehab then repair my glider. Hopefully, by May I can get back on my Falcon then the Sport 2 and by Fall be back on the T2C.

Cheers,
DQ

Good thing you were upright when you went in. If you'd been prone with both hands on the basetube you might have sustained some pretty serious injuries.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4330
Jonathan slammed-in at Crestline

NMERider - 2014/02/02 19:37:52 UTC

I had not realized the ground was coming up so fast and only completed a partial round out from a 32 mph 3:1 angle to 22 mph 3:1 angle with my right hand up and left hand down.

That's what a drag chute does, Jonathan. Makes the ground come up a lot faster. Good job engineering that thing.

I hit the control bar first which instantly exploded all three parts due to the shock force of my weight against the hang strap.

No wheels, right Jonathan?

Drag Chute Compilation & Folding Instructions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihMRLERM6LQ
NMERider - 2014/01/23
dead

Just like in the video? You're using emergency equipment to make the ground come up fast but not using anything to make contact with the ground a lot safer. You're not using wheels or skids that lotsa gliders - and an increasing percentage of them use exclusively for landing gear.

Next, my chest impacted against my reserve cute...

Always have cute in reserve. There's just no such thing as too much cute.



'Specially at Quest where...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems.

We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

...they really don't have great understandings of what causes their gliders to plummet out of the sky.

The nose of my glider hit my helmet gouging the heck out of it...

Good thing the nose didn't hit your neck...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/babymother.jpg


http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/safety/formal_investigations/index.php?doc=2013_05_26_hg-long-mynd.pdf

Although the impact was not at high speed, and most witnesses thought it was minor event, it rapidly became apparent that the pilot had suffered serious injury.

...huh, Jonathan?

Remember that right arm being up?

Definitely. I always note when arms are up - and question why.

Well, I wound up on my right side with what I thought was a broken arm.

1. But no issues with the left / hand-on-the-basetube arm. Go figure.

2. So how come you weren't taught to just let go of the downtube when a crash is imminent? Pretty basic stuff.

3. You really need to get in touch with Dave Hopkins. He can teach you how to crash at nearly three times the speed / nine times the energy and come out smelling like a rose.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4330
Jonathan slammed-in at Crestline

NMERider - 2014/02/02 19:37:52 UTC

I hit the control bar first which instantly exploded all three parts due to the shock force of my weight against the hang strap.

I'm sorry to hear about the damage to your glider, Jonathan.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 19:11:00 UTC

i knew it was coming.You can only do stupid shit for so long before something bites you.

How long had he been doing the "stupid shit" that precipitated this crash?

I hope hes alright and i hope this gives him pause next time he flys beyond his limits.

This didn't happen because he chose to fly beyond his limits. It happened because he fucked up bigtime a second or two prior to impact.

NMERider - 2014/02/02 20:02:55 UTC

OMG - It's Sherlock Fuccking Holmes! Living proof that talking out your ass and indulging in negativism makes the sport so much safer. For your information, Einstein, the accident I had had nothing to do with hang gliding and everything to do with getting all wound up and pushing myself past my reasonable limits. The hang gliding was incidental to the incursion of injuries. I could have just as easily had an even worse accident by improperly using a ladder while doing maintenance on our house or not giving myself enough clearance with traffic while cycling.

And for your information Bozo T Clown, I don't do stupid shit. Stupid shit is what assholes who go around attacking other people's moral charter engage in while making value judgements against their fellow human beings.

I thought you were a big fan of Bob Kuczewski's.

The statement is a testament to your profound ignorance as to how the world actually works and what makes things better in the long run. But why should I expect anything less from another of Cryin_Ryan's harem of knee-pad equipped Beyotches?

I don't do stupid shit.

Really?

027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png

047-03703
http://live.staticflickr.com/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png

055-04709
http://live.staticflickr.com/3885/14422571978_d47ec5c921_o.png


Shit doesn't get much stupider than that, Jonathan. And the fact that tens of thousands of other assholes have been doing it for over a third of a century doesn't make it less stupid.

I fly aggressively and there comes a point where the probability of disaster exceeds the margins for error. There is a fairly straightforward analysis of facts and circumstances applicable to each accident. An application of the FAA ADM methodology of accident avoidance and analysis would reveal the matrix of factors that stacked the odds in favor of an accident.

You flew your glider into the ground, Jonathan - into one of the biggest flattest primary putting greens in the country.

But your display of superstition and histrionics clearly belies your profound failure to have any tangible impact on free-flight safety.

He's had a pretty significant impact on free-flight safety.

If anything, the school of thought to which you subscribe is actually doing the sport far more harm than good.

Yes, that's the direction I was going.

So put all that in your pipe and smoke it then have a good sulk at being accurately called out for the menace your philosophy truly is.

I was calling the motherfucker out well over four years ago.

Have A Wonderful Super Sunday!

Scott Howard - 2014/02/02 20:13:28 UTC

what school is that?

Mission Soaring Center.

I don't want to go to a place were they don't keep safety at the top of the list.

Good freakin' luck.

three thumbs up to your post

NMERider - 2014/02/02 20:17:48 UTC

The Negativism and Ridicule School of Thought.

I don't recall you having any problem with any of the crap Jack and Davis were orchestrating with me.

BTW - I happen to like and respect Brian (noman) along with Joe (Smokenjoe50) et al.

Why?

What I am opposed to and attacking are certain philosophies and value sets that are undermining the sport and undermining the channels of communication within the sport. I have decided to stop being a bleating heart Liberal pussy and no longer take prisoners.

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 20:49:53 UTC

flying up canyons with no lz,flying around questionable weather on a craft with no power and putting yourself in situations with questionable lz's is doing all the damage.People look up to you jhon,whether you like it or not.Your visible antics will encourage the new pups coming up and get someone hurt or killed,if it does not kill you first.I call it stupid shit because i have been there so i have the right to call it as i see it.

What does any of that have to do with what got him crashed?

JJ Coté - 2014/02/02 21:23:52 UTC

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 19:11:00 UTC

You can only do stupid shit for so long before something bites you.

NMERider - 2014/02/02 20:02:55 UTC

I fly aggressively and there comes a point where the probability of disaster exceeds the margins for error.

I've got no idea what happened, but could somebody explain to me the subtle differences between these two statements?

NMERider - 2014/02/02 21:44:45 UTC

Just like distributing condoms encourages teen sex and immorality and distributing clean needles and syringes creates my heroin addiction when in fact this Puritan mentality merely results in the spread of AIDS and accomplishes nothing. And let's all not forget what a big success Prohibition was with the proliferation of Organized Crime and the thousands of poison alcohol deaths and thousands more blinded, etc. Yep, that mentality sure works alrighty. Hey, let's also not forget how violent video games are responsible for the enormous hand-gun murder rate in Chicago.

The philosophy that you embrace is what is killing and crippling people wholesale and not the emulation of other individuals' adventures of which you fantasize to be so. I watch all sorts of mayhem on YouTube from people I admire and look up to and I have absolutely no desire or inclination to follow suit. Not only do you and your ilk heap insult onto me but you heap even more insult onto those who vicariously enjoy my adventures.

What you and your kind are engaged in is nothing less than censorship of the lowest order.

What rules have I violated to get banned from all these shit heaps?

You are a hypocrite and should anyone besmirch the values that you hold so dear in a similar way that you are attacking mine, you would be up in arms crying fowl...

Squawking like a chicken? Quacking like a duck?

...and claiming your constitutional rights were violated.

There's more and I have only scratched the tip of the iceberg.
I sure hope your favorite team wins the SuperBowl. I'm busy catching up on Homeland. What a great show!

NMERider - 2014/02/02 21:56:11 UTC

JJ Coté - 2014/02/02 21:23:52 UTC

I've got no idea what happened, but could somebody explain to me the subtle differences between these two statements?

Well, the first is a meaningless cliché and knee-jerk reaction while the second actually takes some thought and stands to effect positive change.

It's up to the speaker whether to accomplish something of value with his statements and place his ego off to the side or to puff up his mighty chest and bellow out his self-righteousness.
Gosh, I sure hope the pilots at Sylmar and Crestline are getting some today!

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/02 22:26:40 UTC

Are you claiming that by flying aggressively you are unable to avoid disaster?

NMERider - 2014/02/02 22:49:44 UTC

There comes a point in any activity where the more aggressively you pursue it, that the probability of disaster exceeds the margin for error.
Have A Great Super-Sunday!

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 22:57:05 UTC

you can attack me all you want from your bed while healing up from your calculated risks.My simple point is that you take unnecessary risks that will encourage others.

Yes, I'm quite sure that after reading Jonathan's account of this incident teenage boys from coast to coast will be lining up to dive drag chute equipped T2Cs into the ground.

Have you picked up any dead body's lately?

Any dead body's what?

I bet you slow down and take careful thought about your antics after doing so.Its hard for you to see it through my written words here but i give a fuck about you jhon.

Of course. He's reasonably current flying hang gliders. And that's about all that matters to you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Dave Pendzick - 2014/02/02 23:21:28 UTC

I watched Jackass the other day, but I didnt go try to ride a shopping cart off my roof. I appreciate your concern and I will be first to inform you, as a new guy, I am inspired by NMERider, but am also humbled by how much I have to learn to get even remotely close to his level.

0.25 feet AGL.

Don't worry about getting to his level. Worry about the basics - THEORY, preflight, hook-in check, launch, thermalling, approach, landing, towing - and you'll be fine and up at Jonathan's altitude in reasonably short order.

I feel that his videos are a MAJOR contribution to the positive growth of this sport.

What positive growth of the sport? Everything I've heard indicates that it's in a decline.

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/02 23:22:20 UTC

NMERider - 2014/02/02 22:49:44 UTC

There comes a point in any activity where the more aggressively you pursue it, that the probability of disaster exceeds the margin for error.

That's really only true if you don't do any sort of risk management, or in more simple terms, what will happen if I do this? That should be a continuous, ongoing decision process that as pilots we are always engaged in. We operate in a three-dimensional environment when we fly, something that is not natural for us. It is all learned responses and skills.

We handle three dimensional environments just fine - especially seeing as how we spent a lot of our evolutionary history in the trees. And we're not bad climbers now. And we do pretty good underwater - also a three dimensional environment.

Most of us adjust pretty quickly to the counterintuitive stuff - like being low and slow is not making us safer.

What we really suck at - relative to birds - is flying without visual references. That's why it's real tough to climb without a vario when we're way up high and/or over the flatlands and one of the reasons we're not supposed to go into clouds.

There is nothing wrong with pilots being aggressive as long as they consider the possible outcomes. It's done by many people every day in many form of sports and other activities. Exceeding personal skill level, ignoring weather conditions, or making other poor decisions in general are common causes of hang gliding accidents/incidents.

Move your hands from the basetube to the downtubes, your:
- control authority goes to hell
- potential for breaking an arm goes through the ceiling

Attempt to whipstall to a dead stop...

Do the math.

Do one hundred percent of tows on the equivalent of a very badly frayed towline eternally on the verge of dumping the glider.

Put the release actuator wherever the fuck you feel like.

Assume you're hooked in at launch position.

Those are the biggies, The Industry shoves them down our throats, nobody does shit to address them.

Weather and poor decisions outside of what The Industry shoves down our throats don't even register in comparison.

Willingly making those poor choices is not being aggressive.
It actually sounds a lot more like the big C word - Complacency.

Bullshit. Nobody's complacent about hang gliding. Complacency is the dodge The Industry loves to use to write off the victims of its shit training and equipment. We crash hundreds of gliders because of irrational fears and irrational responses to them for every one that gets crashed as a consequence of complacency.

"If I:

- don't work on perfecting my flare timing and hitting the traffic cone in the middle of the LZ every flight I might not be able to land safely in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place if I ever need to."

- use a weak link capable of getting me airborne five times in a row it might not break when I when I need it to."

- use a nonstandard straight pin aerotow release I'll have to put another weak link on the other end of the thick rope I'm using for a pro toad bridle and that will double the allowable towline tension and expose me to the danger of a fatal lockout."

- don't do a hang check in the setup area and check the Five Cs I might launch unhooked."

- perform a preflight sidewire load test I might break something before I leave the setup area."

- don't wanna listen to the folk who actually know what they're talking about and go to the tow park Tad runs instead I'll be killed instantly ten times over."

Doing an analysis of the causal chain of events that led up to an incident almost always reveals numerous decisions that could have been made differently to avoid the eventual bad outcome.

Unless it's Zack Marzec. Then nobody has the slightest fucking clue what went wrong at any point. 'Cept, of course, whatever it was couldn't possibly have had anything to do with the standard aerotow weak link and pro toad bridle. We know this because Davis has told us that he's never had a serious issue with either item.

It's rarely an inevitable outcome without it being a result of poor decision making. Aggressiveness alone is not enough.

NMERider - 2014/02/02 23:45:06 UTC

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 22:57:05 UTC

you can attack me all you want...

I have seen my share of dead bodies and buried many friends and consoled their bereaved family and friends while most others chose to hide their heads in the sand and pretend like it never happened.

What percentage of those bereaved friends and family members have done shit to reduce the possibility of somebody else doing a rerun?

I am not attacking you--I'm attacking your philosophy.

What's the difference? If someone's philosophy is to take over Europe and cleanse it of inferior races and deviants do you just attack his philosophy?

My simple point is that you have no credible evidence that the risks I take encourage others to take similar risks. Not one shred beyond your own superstitious beliefs.

Like valuing opinions of glider assholes in direct proportion to currency?

What is even more ironic is that I have had numerous pilots tell me that my videos do far more to discourage needless risk taking than if I had not posted anything at all.

Aside from flying with the total shit you use for aerotow equipment, towing behind dangerous morons, and doing standup landings on putting greens, what needless risks are you normally or occasionally taking?

For someone who pretends to care about me I find you utter lack of anything even resembling kind words rather telling, don't you? My belief is that this is nothing more than a power struggle. You want to censor my free expression of my chosen activities and control what is broadcast in the media.

Yeah?

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

You got the fuckin' GALL to make a statement like that on a forum controlled by that motherfucker? And after you've made THIS:

http://torreyhawks.org/r3/ENDNOFR.HTM
Endorsements

NMERider

I voted for Bob after spending a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him a few months ago. My impression of Bob is that he is a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of both hang gliding and paragliding, and above all: SAFETY.

(lunatic) statement?

Your actions tell me that you want to control other pilots' flying activity. You clearly have no respect for other pilots' freedom of choice and freedom of self-expression.

1. How much do you have? Where were you when:

- Rooney was attacking Zack C and telling him he wouldn't tow him because Zack wanted to fly in the middle of the FAA's legal/safety range for weak links behind a tug with a legally compliant weak link?

- Davis threatened to ban people in the legal weak link camp and locked down threads because they were mopping the floor with him and his team?

2. NOBODY with half a brain or better has unbridled respect for other pilots' freedoms of choice. Do you think a pilot with a Blood Alcohol Content of 0.15 percent and a frayed sidewire should have the freedom to stagger off the Kagel ramp with the intent of landing in a clear lane of I-210?

Had you initially come out and said something meaningful like, "Hey Jhon, Please don't do that again. I want you around and I fear that others might make similar mistakes." or words to that effect I might take you seriously. But you didn't. Instead you shot your mouth off and took a pot shot at me while believing I'm in bed healing up. Your words simply don't ring true but strike me as hollow.

I'm surprised you can make enough sense of his "writing" to get a good feel for how his words ring.

You have absolutely no clue how much I do behind the scenes to make this sport safer. Not one scintilla of even the slightest hint.

1. I do. Zilch. If you did anything that actually mattered we'd be seeing and hearing about the results and you'd be making enemies left and right. If you'd left AJX in a body bag we wouldn't see a change in statistics one way or the other.

2. But let's say you ARE doing useful stuff behind the scenes.
- Why are you doing it behind the scenes? What are you hiding, who are you doing it with, and why are you hiding it?
- Who are the players you most need to keep out of the loop and what kind of damage could they do if they found out what was going on?
- Is there any way anyone else can gain admission to this secret society? What are the resumé requirements.
- Need any professional hit men?
- Any way *I* could participate or contribute? (Just kidding.)
- If you'd left AJX in a body bag how many years would hang gliding have been set back?

Well, I hope the game is a winner.

It was for Seattle.

These episodes of Homeland on DVD are the bomb!

Aldpal - 2014/02/02 23:48:52 UTC

I think we all take on a calculated risk when we engage in any type of flying.

When I calculate my risk it comes up a lot lower than the risk of the drives to and from the site.

This "calculated risk" thing is bullshit. Mike Barber has this one right:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs


You get the percentage down so far that the risk of flying is about the same as the risk of not flying.

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/02 19:11:00 UTC

You can only do stupid shit for so long before something bites you.

This same sentiment could be and is used by the non-flying general population to criticize any one that does "stupid shit" like go hang gliding. I know people that have flown HG for years, and have never ventured from the same launch sites and designated LZs.

With all that training and practice for landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place going for naught. What a pity.

I'd say that's a description of the overwhelming percentage of people who fly these things - students, newly rated pilots, people who don't get to fly all that much 'cause of time constraints and/or being hundreds of miles from the nearest sites, and the ones you described. And I'd say that a lot of the people who do fly XC only do so 'cause the testosterone cases plastered all over the magazines, websites, and advertisements radiate the message that flyers who stay local are all girlie men.

I did a fair amount of XC over the years. But late in my career I decided: Fuck it. I'm quite happy boating around the airport for a few hours and much happier landing a hundred yards from my car.

Just going XC is an added calculated risk...

Why? At Woodstock, for example, the primary is brain dead easy but it's junk compared to the options that start popping up as you move up and down the ridge or get high enough to go over the back.

...that your logic could be used to criticize anyone going XC.

Within the sub-group of us that like going XC, we each set our own parameters of how much risk we are willing to take. The same goes for those of us that want to take on added risks, with doing aerobatics. Your logic would seem to indicate that I should not be allowed to do Acro.

Flying in challenging conditions or changing weather fronts is an increased, calculated risk that some of us choose. Your logic would seem to indicate we should not fly in unstable air, because of course there is an increased risk factor there and we should all be happy with sledders in stable smooth air.

1. Which is about all you can get up in...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...anyway with Rooney Links increasing the safety of the towing operation.

2. I think people who aerotow SHOULD be prohibited from flying in anything but stable smooth air. The theory upon which aerotowing is based - Donnell Hewett's - is predicated on the assumption of stable smooth air and that's what the equipment is all geared for. Hit unstable air at the wrong time with Industry Standard releases, bridles, weak links and you're dead from a lockout and/or stall and there's not a goddam thing you'll be able to do about anything.

That being said, I am also no fan of anyone who flies recklessly and endangers our sport's flying sites or reputation, even if they hurt no one but themselves, as a result of pushing the limits too much.

Even if one hurts no one but himself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc4-mRxy5GY


...other people ALWAYS get hurt to some degree or other.

To offer full disclosure: I know Jonathan, I fly with Jonathan, I actually will even admit to liking Jonathan. I do not consider him to be a reckless pilot, and certainly not a bad influence for others. His videos are educational and offer a great exposure to our sport. That's not to say that he is above critique and, like us all, can use constant refinement of skills.

He didn't slam in because of deficient skills.

I am sure constructive criticism is appropriate and would be welcome, but how about waiting until he has been out of the hospital for more than one day, and maybe, first, hear the full details of this incident, which will soon be readily available? JD, get well soon, Alan

He doesn't need any constructive criticism. He was fully aware of everything he'd done wrong in the fraction of a seconds prior to impact. I one hundred percent guarantee you that - with or without constructive criticism - he won't be doing any repeats. Save your constructive criticism for Rooney, Davis, and their asshole buddies at Quest, Ridgely, Lockout, Cloud 9...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

NMERider - 2014/02/02 23:59:07 UTC

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/02 23:22:20 UTC

Aggressiveness alone is not enough.

I have previously stated I would do an analysis using the FAA ADM methodology. Did you not read this? Do you think you have a better approach than this?

Yeah. Don't fly the glider into the ground.

Are you familiar with the FAA ADM manuals?

Are you familiar with...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

...the FAA regulations covering sailplane and hang glider aerotowing?

At this point I see any further exposition on my part is another example of a Matthew 7:6 event and any motivation I may have once had to this end has since eroded by the wayside.

How 'bout Matthew 2009/07/12?

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk.

I feel I was extremely generous to be open and frank about my errors.

How do you feel about how open and frank Paulen Tjaden and Mark Frutiger were about the errors that contributed to the Zack Marzec fatality?

Sadly, many have seen this as open season on me and few are those who have taken any stand to the contrary.

Boohoo.

- You did something stupid, trashed your glider a good bit, and got yourself very seriously injured. A bit worse and you could've been quaded.

- You're catching some flak but also getting a lot of covering fire and nobody's wishing you ill, locking down your threads, threatening to ban you, and/or making the slightest suggestion that you lose any flying site privileges.

- Compare/Contrast the shit that happened to Yours Truly as a consequence of trying to get what I now realize were then existing FAA aerotowing safety regulations enforced. Fuck you, dude.

Is it any wonder this sport has become stagnant?

1. Gee. And here I was thinking that you were doing tons of stuff behind the scenes which was making this sport safer.

2. We don't have a real big problem with people throwing drag chutes and flying their gliders into the ground at primary LZs. There's absolutely nothing to be learned from this one, and discussing it is a near total waste of time.

The sport's going backwards because...

It insists on making the landings so stressful...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...difficult...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...dangerous...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide

Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC
San Diego

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."

...that nobody's flying hang gliders and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...we injure people out of the sport at unsustainable rates.

And we have an industry running the show that won't permit:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

- easy fixes to deadly problems to be adopted; and...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.

...safe equipment to get into circulation.

Make it safer, less scary, more fun, get the pieces of shit in the tugs under control and their fishing line and bent pin junk out of circulation and our numbers will either go up or at least stop going down as fast.

Tell people that we really don't understand what went wrong on the Zack Marzec fatality, sometimes dangerous shit just happens, and...

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/03 00:15:24 UTC

you are in denial jhon.Many predicted your injury or death,now here we are.I think your meds are talking for you.Get well jhon.

How many of you stupid motherfuckers predicted Jonathan slamming in in the middle of the Crestline primary with a big drag chute out?

And how many of you off-the-scale stupid, hook-in check skipping, Aussie Methodist douchebags...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Brian Horgan - 2009/08/26 16:57:41 UTC

hook your harness to the glider before you put it on,its that simple.I dont here any aussie story's of people launching unhooked.Why the fuk is this so hard to understand.If you launch unhooked,its YOUR fault!.Take yourself out of the equation.Im tired of people dieing and getting hurt from stupid shit.

When i get in my bird,i still do a hang check.

...predicted that Mike Wonder-Boy Bomstad...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Mike Bomstad - 2009/08/26 04:21:15 UTC

The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)

Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.

...would come about one unfortunately positioned small rock away...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c87vgq5ZFU0


...from killing himself on an unhooked launch?

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/03 00:22:49 UTC

just curious what was the outcome of your Quote:probability of disaster that exceeds the margins for error?

NMERider - 2014/02/03 00:28:48 UTC

Denial of what exactly? I openly admitted that I made an error...

Not that you had much of a choice.

...and that I flew too aggressively. Little wonder I was injured. The truth is that I have had many reports from credible individuals that certain instructors have been telling students and other pilots that they were looking forward to seeing me killed.

I'll reserve that hope for some of the truly evil and really deserving scumbags who infest this sport. Rooney, Davis, OP are at the top of my list.

I'm really sorry that you got injured on this one. But if you HAD to get injured I'd have so much preferred it if you had done so in a manner much more deserving and that would've benefitted the sport - unhooked launch, Rooney Link pop, tug driver fixing whatever was going on back there by giving you the rope.

Are you proud of yourself? Is your own house in order? Are you one of these pilots who openly tells other that you can't wait to see me get killed? Offhand, it seems that you are.

I assure you that my Tylenol is not talking for me. Is your alcohol speaking for you? Smells like it to me.

NMERider - 2014/02/03 00:30:11 UTC

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/03 00:22:49 UTC

just curious what was the outcome of your Quote:probability of disaster that exceeds the margins for error?

If you read all my posts you would know the answer to that. Try looking here:
http://www.hanggliding.org/search.php?search_author=NMERider

Brian Horgan - 2014/02/03 00:42:48 UTC

oh hell no! im very sorry that many have seen the signs,including me.Intermediate syndrome can get any of us at anytime.I would never hope ill will on any of my flying brothers or sisters.

But if they got blacklisted out of the sport five years ago... Fuck 'em. Right along with the rest of the non hang gliding scum that infests the planet.

I care enough to say what needs to be said,even if it makes me a pariah.

And how wonderfully qualified you are to know with such absolute certainty what needs to be said. You fly a lot and therefor you know what you're talking about.

i know what you broke man,please get well and stop hating on me for trying to be real.

NMERider - 2014/02/03 01:08:48 UTC

I'm trying the rest and recuperate and you start publicly slinging insults at me. Nice way to kick someone in the balls when they're down Mother Theresa. You're a fine example to the world of just what great community this is.

But he's not poison to this sport and permanently banned from that site in every possible way imaginable - the way Bob, Scott, and T** at K*** S****** are.

Just because I may be lying down doesn't mean I'm going to take it lying down.

In case anyone out there chooses to keep his head out of his ass, I managed after six hours of struggling to restore most of the damaged video file and combine that with my track log which was recorded in one-second intervals. Sadly the last few seconds before impact were not recoverable. However, the frame stills do end close enough to impact that there is nothing unusual happening. Even the 3D animated track log looks fairly benign with the exception of the last turn being fairly tight but I level out at the end and suddenly the flight stops.

At the end of the analysis all I can honestly say is that I wanted to see how tight I could turn it and got distracted by the pilot who was carrying her glider across the LZ. By the time I looked ahead it was too late. Yes, it was an aggressive landing approach and a test of the limits of my drag chute system. Had I been in better health and not been so fatigued by this point in the flight I may have safely executed the maneuver. But I was wound up by the time I came in to land and lost awareness of my condition of fatigue and lack of mental and physical energy.

I could have very easily landed without a drag chute or simply floated my way down and gone around the long way for an uneventful landing. Nothing more sinister than this. To call this series of errors, "Stupid Sh*t" is in itself a prime example of what Stupid Sh*t really is.

I will pray for your soul when I lie me down to sleep tonight.

How 'bout praying for my soul? What's the problem?

- Am I:
-- so much nastier than Brian that I don't deserve it?
-- not nasty enough to be worth the effort?

- Despite your fiercely held principles regarding freedom of speech and expression you have the utmost respect for the section of Jack's Mission Statement forbidding the mere mention of my name or any reference to anything I've ever said or written?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/03 01:12:52 UTC

NMERider - 2014/02/02 23:59:07 UTC

I have previously stated I would do an analysis using the FAA ADM methodology.

I am familiar with that reference. Those materials will help you figure out all the causal factors, but now it's after the fact.
What I found fault with is you claiming that the outcome was inevitable because of your "aggressive" flying. One does not guarantee the other.
As far as your biblical reference goes, I don't subscribe to those beliefs so it's meaningless to me.

Quite unlike:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 07:39:03 UTC

Weak links should break when needed, having one not letting go when you are in bad shape is a bad thing.

I am curious about why some people fear low level weak link breaks or being given the tow line. Weren't you taught how to handle that situation when you learned to tow? Being aware of what can go wrong and knowing how to handle it during a critical phase of your flight is an important thing, I think. If you're ready for it when or if it happens it can be easily dealt with. It's not that difficult. It should pretty much be an automatic response.

Is there anything in my previous post that you can say is incorrect or not factual?

How 'bout the moronic religious crap on weak links of yours I just quoted?

Mel Torres - 2014/02/03 01:19:24 UTC

I admire what Jeb Corliss, Evel Knievel, Felix Baumgartner, and, yes, Jonathan do or have done. But there's no way in hell do I want to emulate them. And if any newbie wants to, they need to hang up their wings.

Newbies should hang up their wings if they DON'T wanna do just about all of what people like Jonathan, Steve Pearson, Dave Seib, Mike Barber, Eric Hinrichs, Rob Kells do. Here's a really good example of what NOT to aspire to and emulate provided by a Lockout Mountain Flight Park training program victim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk


That doesn't mean after a solid day of training hill lessons on a Condor run off Kagel on a T2C and try for forty miles. It means emulate what they do on the basics and gradually but constantly progress towards the complete package.

soarass - 2014/02/03 01:24:29 UTC

NME Heal Up Fast

Really sorry to hear you went in, my friend. Hope you are better soon. After not flying since Thanksgiving, I got current today with a frozen half hour off Marshall.

I intend to reinforce my preflight check to meet the level of thoroughness I employed today. Felt a lot calmer after triple-checking everything.

Yeah, I'll bet.

Steve Kinsley - 1998/05/01 01:16 UTC

So Marc thinks the Australian method will forever ban human error and stupidity. I suspect that 80% of the flying community would have unhooked to fix the radio problem instead of getting out of the harness entirely. It is easier. And there you are back in the soup.

"With EACH flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR to launch." Emphasis in original.-- USHGA novice through advanced requirement.

I know of only three people that actually do this. I am one of them. I am sure there are more but not a lot more. Instead we appear to favor ever more complex (and irrelevant) hang checks or schemes like Marc advocates that possibly increase rather than decrease the risk of hook in failure.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1167
The way it outa be

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC

One last attempt.

We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, etc. Bob Gillisse redux.

A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp. When you get in line you are hooked in and ready to go. No going down for a hang check cum hook-in check.

At what point in your preflight procedure did you do your final hang check and move to launch to start focusing on the serious issues of trimming the glider and picking a cycle?

Topped off the flight diving continuously for close to two minutes in a big circle over AJX...

Great. It's always such a blast killing altitude and airtime.

...then burned it in for a Full-VG no-stepper.

Super. Narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place... Here you come.

I swear it felt more gentle than any previous touchdown.

Don't do a lot of wheel landings, do you?

Now I know I don't have to risk reaching for that VG if I forget it and come in hotter.

Nah, that could be really dangerous. It's really only safe to reach for a release actuator during a low level lockout on aerotow.

Note that this was in serious wind, and it worked to my advantage. I would have coasted a long way in ground effect, in a lighter breeze.

Yeah. In no wind...

http://vimeo.com/36062225


...you could've very easily overshot. Better get yourself a drag chute and learn how to use it posthaste.

Heal soon, JD

Don't hold your breath.

NMERider - 2014/02/03 01:51:44 UTC

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/03 01:12:52 UTC

What I found fault with is you claiming that the outcome was inevitable because of your "aggressive" flying.

I never used the word, "inevitable".

I said, "I fly aggressively and there comes a point where the probability of disaster exceeds the margins for error." I stand by what I have stated. Ask any bush or combat pilot whether he or she flies aggressively and whether there will come a point where it is more likely than not that they will encounter disaster.

It is pretty much as capsule of the ADM. The only way to fly hang gliders accident-free is to stay within very, very tight constraints, and I choose not to.

Bullshit. You were WAY the fuck outside of very, very tight constraints when you screwed that pooch. We virtually always have a lot of operating envelope to screw around and have plenty of fun in.

My choice and my responsibility.

Let's not forget the mop-up crew and the medical system.

I challenge anyone to show me where I have in any way shirked responsibility for my accident.

Seems to me like calling it an "accident" is a pretty good candidate.

I can look myself straight in the mirror and I sleep well with the exception of the excruciating pain from my pinched nerve or whatever it is.

Great. Must be super to have such solid self esteem.

You would not believe all the pilots who have gotten in my face and spouted out all manner of rubbish about how unsafe my flying is and then either nearly get killed or contribute to the death of another pilot and the serious injury of a second.

We would if you dedicated some of your downtime to documenting them. And that very well may go a lot further to enhance the safety of the sport than all the really great stuff you're doing behind the scenes.

All with no apology or admission of error.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I am very hard pressed to come up with a scenario where I would want my weaklink not to break when it's loaded up. Conversely, I can think of several times on tow where I was glad it did. Usually I was just about to release cause things were going from bad to worse and POP, I was flying myself and things worked out.

I get pretty torqued up at the "strong weak link" advocates who come out of the woodwork when something like this happens and use it to say "see, this proves my/our point". This, in spite of not being there and only having second hand information to make this point. If you believe that fine, knock yourself out, but don't use BS like "this wouldn't have happened if only you had listened to me".

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know. I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position, particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

Imagine that.

Let's be perfectly frank, shall we?

No. Let's lie and do stuff behind the scenes. Much better game plan.

There is sadly no shortage of cowardice within our ranks.

NO FUCKING SHIT.

I am certainly no hero but I sure as shit am a true adventurer.

adventure: an unusual and exciting, typically hazardous, experience or activity

Yep. If you're not gonna do something really hazardous with your flying you might as well just stay in bed.

And if others cannot live with my expression of my freedom than they should move out of the United States of America.

France maybe. Then they'll feel a lot better about you all the way over on the far edge of the next continent doing stupid shit and destroying your body.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

But, hell, even Canada will work in a pinch.

Listen, motherfucker...

- If you're competent and skilled enough to fly XC all over the LA Basin and pull off landings in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place you have my blessings. Knock yourself out.

- You DO NOT have the right to dive gliders into the middle of the primary, break the crap out of your neck, and risk quading yourself. Once is a stupid mistake, twice - in the unlikely event Mother Nature doesn't permanently ground you - you deserve to have your rating suspended or revoked.

- You DO NOT have the right - flying as a USHGA rated pilot - to skip hook-in checks because you never get into your fucking harness unless it's connected to your fucking glider.

- You DO NOT have the right to tow up on a piece of fishing line that puts you under eighty percent of your max certified operating weight regardless of what the goddam dildo on the Dragonfly does or doesn't permit.

I live on a free country...

BULLSHIT. Pull your head out of your ass.

...and will not capitulate to the harassment of little back-biting bitches.

1. Some of us little back-biting bitches have rules, regulations, laws on our side.
2. You never had the slightest problem with what a shitload of little back-biting bitches were doing to me.

I am sure you feel similarly to me.

Yes and No.

I'm not calling you out on anything other than to illuminate what I see as a simple misunderstanding.

Soaring is a probability-driven activity.

1. You were doing the polar opposite of soaring when you trashed yourself.

2. Nobody ever got trashed soaring.

3. Hardly anybody has ever been trashed as a primary consequence of stopping soaring.

4. At my ol' flying site the opportunity to soar was and is under the unchecked control of a bunch of incompetent law-breaking pigfuckers - the assholes who made Rooney the man he is today.

Anyone who does not fully grasp this reality is missing out.

And one guy who got tired of handing a loop of 130 pound test fishing line and some stupid total douchebags on Dragonflies authority to determine whether...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...he got to soar or spend the window baking in line waiting for relights and, in fact...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson.
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

...lived or died is really missing out - for the rest of his life. But I never saw you getting the least bit bent out of shape over MY situation, Freedom Boy.

NMERider - 2014/02/03 02:06:01 UTC

Matt Christensen - 2014/02/01 05:43:27 UTC

Anyone know? Someone eluded to an incident, hope he is OK.

Thanks for the kind words Matt.

Lemme balance that out with a go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30722
What happened to JD?

Paul Hurless - 2014/02/03 03:45:35 UTC

Flying aggressively does not mean that a pilot will pass the point of being likely to encounter disaster. Pushing past skill levels or making poor decisions does that. It's not the same thing.

The only way to ensure being accident free in any activity is to avoid it.

Really? Can you cite some hang gliding "accidents" so's we can look at the validity of that statement?

There is no way to fly and still be sure to stay accident free.

I never had any accidents in over a quarter century of hang gliding. Crashed a lot and got pretty fucked up a few times though.

Flying is inherently risky. How much a person wants to put them self at risk is their own personal choice.

Only if we have no rating system, regulations, laws.

I do believe pilots have gotten in your face. There are a lot of pilots who have dealt with the aftermath of incidents and don't want to see others go through that and some may over react.

And many will under react and a fair number will just right react.

It doesn't mean they are trying to restrict your freedom.

Doesn't mean their NOT either. And anybody who thinks he should have the freedom to fly his glider into the ground is in serious need of some serious freedom restriction.

However, it is a free country...

Go back and read what I told Jonathan about pulling his head out of his ass. The US is off the fucking scale in terms of percentage of population in prison.

...and saying others should move out of the country if they don't agree with your choices is trying to restrict theirs.

I've never found the love-it-or-leave it crowd to be particularly concerned about anybody's freedoms but their own.

I don't believe that you are responsible for anyone else's flying habits.

I thought it was supposed to be a self regulated sport. I thought we were supposed to adhere to rules, ensure that rules be adhered to, and set examples.

If someone chooses to pattern themselves after somebody else it's their problem if things go sideways for them.

Yeah. It's not like other people have to give up flying time while they try locate and stabilize critically injured buddies, clear the sky to make way for rescue choppers, deal with the trauma of seeing buddies killed and/or worry about sites being restricted or closed.

I have to disagree with there being cowardice in our sport. We fly non-powered, tube and rag wings off mountains. There's nothing cowardly about that.

Yeah, running off a ramp with a glider on one's shoulders is such an insanely dangerous activity that only the most courageous 0.001 percent of the population at large is cut out for it. It's not anything that any ol' scumbag is capable of doing. Seeing as how I did that sort of thing many hundreds of times over the years I'm guessing you really admire me for my bravery and character.

We are all risk takers and adventurers.

Fuck that.

NMERider - 2014/02/03 03:52:39 UTC

Thanks K.C.
Luckily I have not beaten myself up in the slightest.

You should have. And maybe if you'd beat up on yourself to an appropriate degree other people would be doing less of it.

I did not experience a moral failing and have no regrets as such.

Great. And maybe twenty years from now you won't be having any physical problem as consequences of this one and you won't have any regrets then either.

Does your brain always function this way or did the concussion seriously rearrange some of the circuitry?

I would simply rather not be in pain and suffering from injury. I have work to do and this does not help.

Maybe you need a healthy dose of pain and suffering in order to get you to rethink your values system.

Dave Hopkins - 2014/02/03 04:36:19 UTC

Flying HGs and flying XC is a great freedom. It is always potentially dangerous.

It doesn't hold a candle to riding a bike on the edge of the road.

One of our greatest potential skills is our attitude. We all have somewhat different attitudes that comes from the sum of our experience mixed with many personal traits but I think all pilots we put safety high on the list of intentions.

Hang glider "pilots" don't have fuckin' clues how to get things beyond the "intentions" stage.

I think we can advance our skill and flying freedom without exceeding the realm of safe flying. To do this we must always fly conservatively for our level of skill.

This wasn't a level of skill thing.

It's true that we may exceed our level or have an accident and survive. It then will become an other learning experience for us and others to use to temper our judgement on future flights.

State relevance to this one.

As long as we are alive it is never to late to change our attitude. Young and old . There are very few OLD BOLD PILOTS.Thanks for the lesson Jonathan.

Glad YOU took something away from this one.

So how come you're not explaining to Jonathan how he could have better used his glider as a crumple zone and been able to just dust himself off and walk away smelling like a rose?