http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36233
Dennis Pagen cross country seminar
Paraglider Collapse - 2014/02/08 04:23:28 UTC
Lousy writer, worse pilot. Not sure Dennis Pagen can teach anything of any benefit to anyone past Beginner level.
He has no fuckin' business teaching anything to anyone at any level. One does this job totally right or not at all - and that motherfucker's a font of deliberate misinformation.
Dontsink - 2014/02/08 05:01:43 UTC
Aahh, generous measures of arrogance and ignorance, in exquisite balance.
And i'm not talking about Dennis...
Wish I could attend the seminar, but I'm grounded for six months at the least. Duh!.
If you ever do get a chance to attend one of his seminars ask the highly esteemed coauthor of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden:
- if he has any thoughts on the Zack Marzec fatality a year and ten days ago
- what protocols were violated to make that tragedy possible/inevitable
- why he didn't think it was a significant enough incident to be worthy of a single word's worth of his commentary
- what he thought of the official report from USHGA - if he managed to find it where it was buried on USHGA's website and bothered to read it
Paul Walsh - 2014/02/08 09:58:16 UTC
He would be well placed to teach you some respect.
Yeah, that's one thing you can say about Dennis - he's always managed to have himself well placed.
Again, if you dont want to go to the seminar, thats fine.
Here's an account the demise of a previous graduate of one of Dennis's XC seminars:
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
SUMMER 2004 ACCIDENT REPORTS
FATAL TOWING ACCIDENT
The first accident occurred in Germany at an aerotowing competition. The pilot launched with his Litespeed and climbed to about 40 feet when he encountered a thermal that lifted him well above the tug. After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver. The impact was fatal.
Analysis
This pilot was a good up-and-coming competition pilot. He had been in my cross-country course three years ago, and this was his second year of competition. What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious. He encountered so much lift that although he was pulling in the base bar as far as he could, he did not have enough pitch-down control to get the nose down and return to proper position behind the tug. This situation is known as an over-the-top lockout.
I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. This dangerous dive is what happened when Chris Bulger (U.S. team pilot) was towing John Pendry (former world champion) years ago. The release failed to operate in this case, and Chris was fatally injured. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
The pilot in the accident under discussion was an aerodynamic engineer. He had altered his glider by lengthening the front cables and shortening the rear cables to move his base tube back. The amount was reportedly 10 centimeters, or about 4 inches. This is well within the acceptable range, according to Gerolf Heinrichs, the Litespeed designer. Why the pilot altered his bar position in this manner is anyone's guess, but my guess is that it was because he felt the bar was too far out on the glider with the VG off. This Litespeed was the pilot's first topless glider and I expect he wasn't informed that most of the new topless gliders experience a great movement of the base tube as the VG is pulled through its range. The result is that the bar is so far out and the pitch pressure so strong that with the VG off, that the standard procedure is to take off and land with at least 1/4 VG. If the pilot didn't know this he would have been tempted to move the bar.
Factors that attributed to the accident in various degrees were the pilot's experience, the conditions and the alteration of the base tube. To begin, he wasn't greatly experienced in aerotowing, although he had learned and spent much of his flying with surface tow. It is difficult to assess the effect of the turbulence, but suffice it to say that it was strong enough to project him upward, well above the tug. Finally, the alteration of the basetube position could have been a contributing factor because he certainly would have had more pitch authority if he hadn't done that. It is impossible to tell, but perhaps the thermal that lifted him would not have done so as severely if he had had a bit more pitch travel.
What We Can Learn
To begin, alteration of our gliders should not be done without full agreement and guidance from the factory or their trained representatives. Even with such approval, be aware that the factory might not know how you will be using your equipment. Changing the pitch range of a glider is a fairly serious matter and should only be done with full understanding of all the effects.
Secondly, over-the-top lockouts are not frequent, but common enough in big-air towing that tow pilots should all have a plan to deal with them. Think about this: When we are lifted well above the tug, the tow system forces becomes similar to surface towing, with the limit of tow force only being the weak link. The susceptibility to a lockout is increased in this situation.
My experience leads me to believe that a strong thermal hitting when low can push you vertically upwards or sideways before you have time to react. If this happens when I am low, I fight it as hard as I can until I have clearance to release safely. If I am high above the tug, I stay on line with the bar pulled in as far as possible and keep myself centered if at all possible. I fully expect the tug pilot to release from his end if necessary for safety, but in the case of a malfunction, I would release before endangering the tug.
We are taught to release at the first sign of trouble, and I fully support that general policy, but in some cases, the trouble happens so fast and is so powerful that a release low would have severe consequences. In my case, I was instantly high above the tug with a strong turn tendency and a release at that point would have been ugly. The main point for us to understand is that we must gain our experience in gradually increasing challenges so we can respond correctly when faced with different emergencies. It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts and a hook knife is useless in such a situation, for the second you reach for it you are in a compromised attitude.
Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing. Normally, we tow topless gliders with about 1/3 VG pulled to lighten pitch forces and increase speed. Intermediate gliders are often towed as much as 1/2 VG pulled for the same reasons. Pilots must understand these matters when aerotowing.
Finally, I think it is appropriate to remind all dealers, instructors and pilots in general to inform their customers and friends that the new topless gliders exhibit the notable bar movement with VG travel as explained above. As such, it is normal to take off and land with 1/4 VG on in order to place the bar in a position to roll easier and to reduce the pitch pressure. It is much easier to maintain safe control speed with the VG pulled 1/4.
- No name, date, location, release type, glider size, weak link strength.
- No bridle type. Just an implication that it was one point.
- Note the contradictions here:
After a few moments, the glider was seen to move to the side and rapidly turn nose down to fly into the ground, still on tow, in a classic lockout maneuver. The impact was fatal.
What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious. He encountered so much lift that although he was pulling in the base bar as far as he could, he did not have enough pitch-down control to get the nose down and return to proper position behind the tug.
It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
And we know the weak links involved were Rooney or equivalent 'cause:
-- Dennis uses Rooney Links
-- the DHV mandates Rooney Link equivalents
-- Dennis would've had a field day blaming a stronglink for causing the glider to lock out and slam in still on tow
However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
We are taught to release at the first sign of trouble, and I fully support that general policy, but in some cases, the trouble happens so fast and is so powerful that a release low would have severe consequences. In my case, I was instantly high above the tug with a strong turn tendency and a release at that point would have been ugly. The main point for us to understand is that we must gain our experience in gradually increasing challenges so we can respond correctly when faced with different emergencies.
I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.
...and a hook knife is useless in such a situation, for the second you reach for it you are in a compromised attitude.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
One drawback to single point is that it is not easy to incorporate a secondary release so a hook knife must be handy in flight.
- Remember what Paraglider said about Dennis being a lousy writer?
Factors that attributed to the accident...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
With other forms of ground towing, the pressure is automatically regulated by the hydraulic or clutch systems.
...
The glider floated on the water with the pilot wearing water skies hanging below.
Towing Aloft is riddled with the use of the word "pressure" to describe the force pulling the glider up, grammatical errors, typos and padded with redundant junk to make the book thicker - while curiously omitting any reference to any advantage to be had with a release which allows the pilot to blow tow with both hands on the basetube.
- Remember what Paraglider said about Dennis being a lousy pilot?
I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals.
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees.
By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle.
My experience leads me to believe that a strong thermal hitting when low can push you vertically upwards or sideways before you have time to react.
In my case, I was instantly high above the tug with a strong turn tendency and a release at that point would have been ugly.
It should be made clear again that a weak link will not prevent lockouts and a hook knife is useless in such a situation, for the second you reach for it you are in a compromised attitude.
Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion.
He's not a pilot. He's a goddam dope on a rope, pro toad passenger with bent pin "equipment" that stinks on ice and whose life is entirely dependent on the whims of his tug driver and 130 pound Greenspot emergency release and the luck of having just enough altitude to pull out.
He tells us the bald faced lie that:
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
and conspicuously ignores the fact that the only reason his useless ass isn't just as dead as Zack Marzec's is because his Rooney Link very clearly DIDN'T provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.
And then he tries to snow us with loads of pseudo-competent/superior bullshit like:
I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany.
Secondly, over-the-top lockouts are not frequent, but common enough in big-air towing that tow pilots should all have a plan to deal with them.
My experience leads me to believe that a strong thermal hitting when low can push you vertically upwards or sideways before you have time to react. If this happens when I am low, I fight it as hard as I can until I have clearance to release safely. If I am high above the tug, I stay on line with the bar pulled in as far as possible and keep myself centered if at all possible.
The main point for us to understand is that we must gain our experience in gradually increasing challenges so we can respond correctly when faced with different emergencies.
"I'm a real pilot, I can handle this, if I release early, the tug pilot makes a good decision in the interest of my safety, or the Rooney Link very clearly provides protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing I'm gonna be in a COMPROMISED ATTITUDE - certainly not smeared all over the runway like the bozo who altered his basetube position by reconfiguring his wires and using a pro toad bridle or Zack Marzec who altered his basetube position just with a pro toad bridle.
"And I'm totally cool with instantly whipping to the side in a wingover maneuver when I execute the easy reach to my Industry Standard bent pin barrel release. Good thing it worked though - 'cause if I'd had to reach for my handy-in-flight hook knife I'd have instantly been in a compromised attitude, which is MUCH WORSE than instantly whipping to the side in a wingover maneuver."
- Yes, the modification of the glider was an attributory factor. But it was pretty much dwarfed by the attribution of the pro toad bridle and its effect on pitch control range. But that issue isn't the one that gets the top billing and print space and is mentioned pretty much as an afterthought and the motherfucker's telling us that whatever happens to us flying pro toad is manageable.
- These two incidents - the German fatal and Pagen's lucky-for-him/tragedy-for-hang-gliding narrow miss - are carbon copy prequels for the Zack Marzec fatal.
Dennis tells us:
What happened to him is not too unusual or mysterious.
Yet the Industry shits responsible for this one are telling us:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.
Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC
IMHO aerotowing is relatively safe compared with foot launching. I would certainly like to make it safer. What we would all like to know is what could we do to make it safer.
We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer (again, I fly with a slightly stronger weaklink).
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
So how come the sonuvabitch doesn't step in and tell us that what happened with what happened to Zack was not too unusual or mysterious?
Why the obsessive need to trash people you really dont know.
How the fuck do you know how well he does or doesn't know Dennis? And how - with the volume of printed material Dennis has been perpetrating on the public since near the dawn of the sport - is it possible for any critical reader NOT to really know him?
When did you last fly with Dennis?
Who the fuck cares? If he tops the stack and nails the traffic cone with a no-stepper does that make him a great pilot and/or someone highly qualified to give a seminar on XC flying? Jon Orders was a highly experienced tandem driver with lotsa competition notches in his belt and less than two days ago he got sentenced for a felony conviction for criminal negligence for doing to his passenger at Mount Woodside on 2012/04/28 the same thing that Dennis did to himself at Morningside on 1993/09/28.
Have you ever attended one of his seminars, so are qualified in making such a sweeping negative comment?
I have. And I've attended one of his instructor certification clinics, flown with him plenty of times, stayed at his place, crewed for him, chased him, read tons of his books, magazine articles, incident reports. The guy's totally full of shit.
No you never have.
If you know the answer then how come you asked the question?
You certainly have problems...
Maybe. I know I, you, lotsa other people do sure do. So what?
...and I suspect that dodgy commenting on a forum is the least of them.
His commenting didn't seem dodgy to me. Compare/Contrast with crap like:
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Caution: For aerotowing tandem, weak links should be lighter than for surface towing tandem. One commercial aerotow operation uses the same weak link for tandem towing as they use for solo with very good results and a wide safety margin.
Three recent aerotowing accidents have occurred--one fatal. The common thread in all three was a lockout and the use of a much too heavy weak link. Tandem gliders are much less responsive than smaller gliders and the pilot in command often has a less than ideal position on the control bar. The situation shouldn't be compromised by an over-strength weak link.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
Go Dennis.
Go fuck yourself, Dennis. Ditto for your groupies - especially Paul here.
Oh, I'd SO love to - but...
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Dennis:
Could you publish your course outline here?
Dennis:
Think you could spare a moment to rappel down from your pedestal long enough to interact with any of the rabble that inhabits internet discussion groups? Or are you afraid that after two or three seconds worth of exposure on an interactive medium you'd get your ass blown to shreds so thoroughly that it would take you weeks just to locate all the pieces?
Fred Wilson - 2014/02/10 16:06:00 UTC
Yeah, we certainly wouldn't wanna have any heated exchanges on any hang gliding issues...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06
Unlike the FAA's relatively clear-cut legal rules, the practical aspects of weak link technology and application are not so clear-cut. For some people, talking about weak links is more like talking about religion, politics, or global warming--they can get very emotional about it and have difficulty discussing it logically, rationally, or with civility.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06
So let's try to talk about it rationally, logically, and practically here.
We might upset the perfect order that's been achieved by the pillars of the sport over the course of the past two or three decades.
The less you respond to rude, critical, argumentative people, the more peaceful your life will become.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation."
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test
of reality.
Tormod Helgesen - 2013/02/12 18:15:49 UTC
I'm with you here Jim, Deltaman just startet an argument with me on a subject we agree on, the man is clearly deranged.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC
YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.
The onus is on YOU.
Not the other way around.
"We" don't need to justify jack.
You want to take pot shots... go for it. I couldn't give a toss.
You don't like my answers... again, get bent.
You're the newbie.
You want to bring in something new?... go for it... it's to YOU to justify it.
It is not to us to justify what we do.
We've been at this a long time and have gone over and over all these little arguments before that you think are "new".
They're new to you.
But they're old hat to "us".
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47
I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.
You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.
A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
So, if you're interested in discussing something, let me know.
If you're just here to argue, dude, I've got so much better shit to waste my time with.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?
I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.
You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 08:12:02 UTC
You're the one all gooei-eye'd over weaklink strengths.
If you'd stop and actually listen rather than just collecting things to argue about, you might actually learn what the hell I'll tow and what I won't.
But alas, that's not going to happen.
Some people just live to argue.
You can't help it. I know, I know.
I'd say it's ok, but it wouldn't be true.
If you were hear to understand something or to have a rational discussion, then we might have something to talk about.
But alas, you're just here to argue.
You've got all your BS theories set in your head and you're just spouting them.
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC
Jim has inferred... No, you have assumed.
Or better, you're not listenin , you're looking for stuff to argue about.
Lacking stuff to argue with, you're making stuff up and trying to fit me into your bullshit narrative.
Yeah Fred, you stay the hell out of the front lines where the "arguments" are happening. And you enjoy the peaceful life you get by ignoring all us rude, critical, argumentative people while you're flying your imaginary Sopwith Camel against an imaginary Fokker Dr.1.
And I SO do hope that when the REAL world rears its ugly head on your ass and all you've got going for you is the kind of crap that Dennis Rooney-Pagen perpetrates on his customers that you get a real big chunk of it bitten off.
