Is this a joke ?
So when was the last time you:Bill Cummings - 2011/08/28 23:18:41 UTC
Releases and weak-links
Concerning weak-links and releases in the discussions of late it occurs to me that pilots are stuck in a paradigm when really each towing style or format whether it be: AT, PL, or ST require different considerations when it comes to weak-link strength. The weak-link strength also depends on the varying equipment being used for these different styles of towing.
My wife and I along with my towing friend, Don Ray, froze every release that came down the pike when snow machine towing on the frozen lakes of Minnesota.
- had a release freeze up?
- heard about anybody:
-- having a release freeze up?
-- besides you, Terry, and Don having a release freeze up?
So the Linknife - the greatest invention in the history of hang glider towing and possibly in the field of outer space exploration - which Peter insists on installing only at bridle apexes because he's incapable of designing a safe two point system that releases from a bridle end can be disabled by a bit of dry grass when there's nothing partially frozen on the surface and something partially frozen when there is. Super!Three ring, two ring, three string, two string, link-knife, Johnson in line, Switzer, and I'll have to ask Don what some of the other releases were named that we tried and proved inadequate for that environment.
Would they freeze in the kill zone between zero and two hundred feet?We would get a little bit of slushy snow on or in the works of any release and at altitude they would freeze and fail to release.
That's because I only deal with actual problems that actual people encounter in the real world. And in the real world people tend to be taking off from truck and boat tow platforms and launch dollies. And you find me a video of somebody taking off with a release that's coming into contact with slush.I viewed pictures of Tad's bench testing machine (for the lack of me coming up with a better word for it.) but no where did I see or read where Tad packed a barrel release with slushy snow stuck it in the freezer and bench test how many lbs. of pull it would take to overcome the ice and then release.
Nobody bench tests ANY releases...While no one was bench testing frozen releases at Wallaby and Quest we were field testing releases during the Minnesota winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
...at Wallaby and Quest. And when they fail in the air...Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC
Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.
Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
More on Zapata and weak link
...they keep right on selling them and putting them up and running their fucking mouths about how they've been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
- If you had locked out VIOLENTLY enough and LOW enough you'd have died no matter what you were using for a release and weak link. Free flyers run off slopes, ramps, cliffs without any strings on them at any time and get locked out and slam back into the mountain. So don't tell me that a weak link is necessarily gonna do you any good.We never came across any reliable winter release. (But one---)
It would seem quite apparent that not being able to release we all must have eventually over flown the towline, locked out, and died many times over right?
If we had had a 2 "G" weak-link we would have certainly died.
Why?
The back of the snow machine would have lifted up enough to lose traction and eventually the pilot would enter a lock-out. (The driver releasing two thousand feet of line would not be the answer either since it's too much drag. )
Next it would be time for letting go of the bar and trying the big mitten and hook knife fiasco ---you would think --- but we skipped over that step.
We all lived because there was only one reliable release that NEVER failed us and allowed us to keep both hand on the bar and never relinquish control.
What was the name of this release?
It was called: WEAK-LINK!With the radio, on constant TX, the pilot would tell the snow machine driver to, "Break my weak-link."
If the radio would fail the driver would have stopped short of the shoreline for the pilot to release. If the pilot didn't release the driver would take off again and go wide open on the throttle and break the weak-link.
- If you use your idiot, "Floor it, Don!" release you're gonna die a lot worse in a nonrecoverable situation and you're gonna turn a lot of recoverable situations into nonrecoverable situations.
- The proper response to a stalling/stalled glider is to floor it. The proper response to a locking/locked out glider is NEVER to floor it. It's ALWAYS to reduce or eliminate tension and, if possible, move in front of the glider. A system in with you eliminate tension by maximizing tension is certifiable insane - even if you can get away with it a bunch of times at altitude in smooth air.
- I fly at 320 pounds. So with a one G weak link and me flying straight up from the snowmobile I can't pull the back end of it up enough to cause it to lose traction? And I guess tandems are totally shit outta luck, right? (Not that that would bother me a great deal.)
- The driver releasing two thousand feet of line would not be the answer either since it's too much drag to WHAT? Allow the glider to remain airborne and circle to lay down loops of towline. BULLSHIT.
- How's that system of yours work for people - particularly new people - who make mistakes? 'Cause a lot of serious/fatal tow lockout crashes involve people who've made mistakes...
Bob Buxton accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeb0nNIKs
Scott Buxton - 2013/02/10
dead
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5902.html#p5902
016-04308
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...and can't afford to let go of the basetube. "Hey chuck! I routed the bridle over the basetube, I can't afford to let go and make the easy reach for my release lanyard. How 'bout locking up the winch and flooring it?"
- Got a plan for locking out low with a frozen release and a radio problem?
Really hard to imagine being in a situation on a hang glider in which there could be a downside to pushing out four inches - especially in the course of a tow emergency.When the rope went tight the pilot would push out four inches, the 0.8 "G" (224 LBS for my all up weight of 280 lbs.) weaklink would let go.
Well that's just great, Bill. Since you half a half a dozen assholes doing your snowmobile towing on frozen Minnesota lakes never even came close to entering a hammerhead stall or ever being concerned with a uncompleted loop or tumble - just simply flew on - that most certainly means that such a situation is impossible under any imaginable circumstances.The pilot would pull in 8 inches and fly on. Never even coming close to entering a hammerhead stall or ever being concerned with a uncompleted loop or tumble. Just simply fly on.
You would if you were slightly under my flying weight and had Davis as meet head or Rooney as a driver. If you were my flying weight or up you'd have flown under that.I would never use a 0.8 G weak-link for Aero-tow.
BULLSHIT. The FAA, USHGA, Donnell Hewett, and the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden say it's OK.That is too light.
It's a fuckin' TWO point bridle, Bill. 'Specially in the context in which you're talking. It connects at the secondary bridle apex and the keel.With the threaded three point bridle...
Name some reasons, Bill. Name some reasons that can't be eliminated, mitigated, dealt with....that may not unthread for various reasons...
Why on earth not?...I don't want to "get the line" that low.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
It fixes whatever's going on back there. So why would anyone not want whatever's going on back there fixed?Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
You want to GET AWAY FROM the ground!? Sounds a lot like...I want to get away from the ground...
...more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Why not? A weak link blow is never anything more than an inconvenience and it always increases the safety of the towing operation. How would you know that you weren't about to lock out?...and then have time to get rid of the line or wrap it all up and shove it into my harness.
I would not want a weak-link to blow unexpectedly near the ground just off the dolly.
It's not a problem. It's only a problem when somebody misuses one of Tad's releases...More trouble can happen with this launching style, blowing a weak-link, than when platform towing.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers
...and comes rather close to breaking his legs. And even then it's not really a dangerous situation - it's still manageable.Jim Rooney - 2005/09/22 14:05:50 UTC
Ok, as long as we're digging this deeply into it....
It is not merely a matter of inconvenience. I was there, and in my oppinion Steve came rather close to breaking his legs. I was getting ready to dial 911.
Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation. There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow. Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.
Well yeah. But if you're taking off behind a 914 Dragonfly you can get going a lot faster than it is. You're taking to the air at...Staying on the launch dolly longer and getting more speed before lift off makes me more comfortable.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
...Mach 5 and likely to get your ass *saved* by the weak link and piled into the earth.Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
And Ryan Voight says...But just like Jim Rooney says you could push out and break it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
...EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Really hard to go wrong with either of those guys.Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Obviously. There's no fuckin' way a tug can ever be in danger taking off...Way short of putting the tug in danger.
...with a couple hundred extra pounds pulling on the end of its tail in any direction. Nope, just as long as it's pulling a solo glider with a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end or a tandem with a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a bridle end it's perfectly safe. But obviously nothing greater than either of those two figures. Anything else just wouldn't have the requisite track record.
The only REAL threat to a tug...
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121107X15820
CEN13LA055
...is a total loss of engine power during takeoff. That's pretty easy to remember 'cause it's exactly the same thing that keeps hang gliders safe on takeoff.On November 4, 2012, about 1245 eastern standard time, a Dragonfly-C, N667DF, experienced a total loss of engine power during takeoff, and collided with terrain near Darbyville, Ohio.
You're with Jim on all kinds of shit, Bill. Me... If that motherfucker told me it was raining during a downpour I'd stand out in it for twenty minutes before beginning to attach some credence to what he was saying.I'm with Jim on this.
Yeah. Obviously this guy:Off of a platform I really don't care if it breaks at any time.
doesn't either - despite what happened to one of his buddies at that competition when he was popped off tow when his nose got blasted up by a dust devil and popped off when his wrist lanyard was auto tensioned.
In any imaginable set of circumstances.I launch with enough speed to fly away from the truck even without a towline.
Hell, if you come down at the angle Eric Aasletten did you really don't need a whole lot of runway length in which to get the glider stopped.There will be ample landing area to each side of the runway or I won't fly.
I just love your optimism and can do attitude, Bill.I'm more with Jim on this issue than with Tad. But each fellow here has made statements that are all inclusive that really are not:This may always hold true with light weight, aluminum LD, Tow me up, or ATOL type winches (reels) but my boat winch was made by Sky Dog Bob in Canada. It was a big, heavy, all steel, winch and took a good deal of inertia to get it rolling or even accelerate to a higher payout RPM.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.
Even with all the stretch of the three thousand six hundred feet of 3/16 inch Poly-Pro., rope I could push out and break my three hundred lb weak-link and fly away. That size weak-link would blow before the heavy drum could get up to speed and keep from breaking the weak-link. (Reliable inertia saving the day.)
I really hope I won't be successful until somebody like Rooney, Davis, Trisa, Paulen, Adam gets it the same way Zack Marzec got it.Tad wants to drive a steak through the heart of the idea of breaking a weak-link as a back up release. Hopefully he won't be successful.
Sorry Bill. That one's a total deal breaker until THIS:I think weak-links are the only important part that we disagree on. All the other things I'm sure we could hash out, fine tune and come to an agreement.
stops being true.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson.
What are you gonna command if you're in a low level lockout and you have a release failure or capture? Tell my family I love them?I don't want to fly on LD winches mounted on the front bumper since the driver can not increase my tension from the cab. That is important to me. If I have a release failure or capture while platform towing I want to be able to command, "Break my weak-link," and for it to be possible not just feed me more line.
If you spent a tenth of the time you do writing crap like this working on a good both hands on the basetube platform release you could stop writing crap like this and other people could stop reading and debunking it.
So why do you think Zack Marzec tumbled twice from 150 feet with a 260 pound weak link that put him at one G? Maybe he panicked and pushed out all the way when he should've been pulling in?On winches with too much rope on them there is always too much line dig going on and I use a 350 lb weak-link (1.25 G.) and still never enter a hammer head stall or start a loop when it fails.
And they don't have any gusts, thermals, dust devil that could ruin your day in the event of the instantaneous removal of 160 pounds of thrust. How nice. Can anybody fly there or are you trying to keep it a safe place for people of varying ages to visit?I go to a field where the hydraulic stationary winch will not break a 160 lb weak-link for five flights in a row. It climbs out fine.
Yeah Bill, 0.25 Gs. Everything works just fine...I have stood in a boat and hand over hand pulled slack into the boat with the pilot at a forty five angle to the boat and not climbing. I would guess it takes less than 40 lbs to do that.
I've kited my hang glider on the ocean beach with my 125 lb wife holding the end of the tow line. (I drug her when I pushed out.)
If you could only develop 70 lbs of line tension for a 280 lb (all up) weight it would work fine.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
...when everything's going just fine.Helen McKerral - 2009/06/29 06:32:32 UTC
Of the two thousand plus flights I've had, less than ten percent are footlaunch ground tow, but they account for fifty percent of the six times I've genuinely thought I was going to die or be seriously injured in this sport, and was literally inches away from doing so. Of the three towing instances, two were not my fault, one was. All three involved hurtling at extremely high groundspeeds very low to the ground with insufficient airspeed to climb, where "STOP STOP STOP" would have seen me plough in headfirst.
The three times I narrowly avoided injury when car towing were purely through luck, not skill (stopping was not an option - I could only screech, MORE TENSION MORE TENSION MORE TENSION and hope the vehicle had enough oomph to get me up).
The purpose of the fucking weak link...Of course if your runway is short you will end up with beefy weak-links and climbing fast.
...is to protect your aircraft against overloading - NOT to serve as the most effective possible backup/emergency release by dumbing it down as close as possible to "NORMAL" tow tension.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Repeatedly getting away with stupid shit isn't PROOF of ANYTHING. A hundred thousand launches hooked in launches off of the Lockout Mountain ramp doesn't prove that a hang check at the back of the ramp is a safe way to ensure that you're connected to your glider when you start your run. One unhooked launch at Mont Mont Saint Pierre proves it isn't.All this 2 G talk, (560 lbs weak-link for me), would have eliminated a very important use that I have in my bag of proven (Time after time,) survival tricks.
Damn near nothing if the materials are Spectra. If they're polypro... Who gives a fuck?Anyone that uses a two point bridle for static towing and has a 560 lb weak-link absolutely has to put the bridle and weak-link between two cars and break the weak-link and watch what happens to the ring at the towline.
That's OK. That asshole doesn't agree with it either. Here's some more of that post.I disagree with the next quote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Anybody who's using a loop of 130 pound Greenspot for all one and two point solo gliders most assuredly isn't using it to protect any equipment - especially when virtually when all the equipment damage is occurring when totally under control gliders...Davis,
Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI
...are getting dumped back on the runway for no reason.
And anybody who says that "only the best of the best aerotow pilots" are using "stronglinks" is very obviously using 130 pound fishing line as the focal point of his safe towing system to protect "pilots" who don't have any aerotowing skills and are equipped with the piece o' shit "releases" they sell at Quest.
So when Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney says:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
he's actually telling the truth. Steve totally believes that the sole purpose of the weak link is to protect the pilot and is totally lying to the general public. The only reason he said that was to show everybody what a...Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35401
Sport Class
...super cool dude he is. Much too cool to get involved with any of us weekend warrior muppets engaged in these discussions and stop watching us in quiet amusement - especially right after one of his best of the best aerotow pilot buddies has just been splattered by the wheel he and his super cool buddies invented.Matt Christensen - 2013/12/27 14:23:01 UTC
As a side note, how cool is Steve Kroop?! This guy is such a great supporter of this amazing sport. We are truly lucky to have people like him in the US hang gliding community.
The one you referred to as a three pointer earlier in this post?Too strong of a weak-link will launch the ring on a two point (1 to1 or 2 to 1) bridle...
A weak link - undoubtedly no more than one G - that blew on an under control / climbing normally solo glider Mike Robertson was boat towing on a polypro line was launched back into his face and took out one of his eyes. But we certainly wouldn't wanna go high enough to allow the glider to climb out normally 'cause a weak link that strong could launch the tow ring with enough power to do some REAL damage....at the pilot when it breaks. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Some THOUGHTS, Bill. Don't use:
- elastic materials in tow configuration
- shit that breaks in the course of normal range tow operation
- If your release fails or is inaccessible in a critical situation it won't matter whether your, or your tug's, weak link breaks or doesn't - you're fucked. Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Robin Strid, Steve Elliot, Roy Messing, Lois Preston have all died proving it, a whole shitload of other people have gotten beat up but good proving it, and probably thousands of people...If my release fails and I can't safely break my weak-link and fly on, I'm headed for disaster.----Anyone who believes otherwise is setting himself up for disaster.
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...have proven it at altitude - or at least enough altitude...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
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...to be able to get away with it.
And if you're enough of an asshole to be flying a release in which you have something less than one hundred and ten percent confidence and flying around with a piece of fishing line because you think you're gonna be able to break it or it might break at just the right time to keep you from piling in while totally ignoring the real prices untold tons of morons before you have paid then you deserve anything and everything that can happen to you as a consequence.
- So - correct me if I'm wrong here, Bill - you're saying that you've got pretty much zero confidence in the reliability of your release to keep you alive and total confidence in your Hewett Link, right? And you, Terry, and Don have proven that beyond any doubt towing on frozen lakes in Minnesota, right?
So as long as you're towing fixed line - static, aero - or using a winch you can lock up then what's the point of even flying with a release? Sounds to me like releases are just expensive draggy junk that encourage people to take their hands off the basetube when they most need to have them on.
Remember when Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney had his panties in a bunch about homemade experimental equipment?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Well, there are only two ways a release can fail.Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
- It can blow prematurely / uncommanded / at random / at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation but that always increases the safety of the towing operation - just like 130 pound Greenspot does. Such a failure results in inconvenience at worst and even if the inconvenience is a tailslide, whipstall, and tumble you'll be OK as long as you use a helmet with a chinguard.
- It can be inaccessible or jam shut - like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction
very very reliable bent pin release. But that's inevitable because all mechanical devices jam at some time or another. And a loop of 130 pound fishing line isn't a mechanical device. Just can't be beat in the realm of aeronautical engineering.Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC
Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.
So if we're all flying with Hewett Links what's the problem with us weekend warrior muppets taking our completely untested and very experimental funky shit up to compare the ways it fails to the ways the proven stuff fails?
---
2022/06/14 03:00:00 UTC
Todd's "release" didn't jam. He just made minimal effort to pull it so's he'd have an excuse to chop up his "equipment" with his razor sharp cutting tool.
