http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/15 23:30:11 UTC
There does tend to be a lot of "Reinventing The Wheel" that goes on when people try to "Build a Better Mousetrap".
- Ya know why that is?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.
Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?
We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.
This is fine and dandy if you realize and accept that you are quite literally experimenting with your life.
As over the top as that sounds, it's pretty damn accurate.
I get called a wet blanket a lot, and that's ok. But I've seen a lot of my friends try to put themselves in the hospital "experimenting" with this stuff.
Please realize that there are hidden issues with all this stuff.
It is by no means as straight forward as it looks.
It's because Bobby Bailey - who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit - is constantly working in his secret underground laboraties at Quest to expand from the capacities and performance of the exquisite designs he bestowed upon us over twenty years ago. He'll experiment with a straight pin barrel release and find that, while it's got well over three times the performance of his unbelievably popular bent pin standard, it doesn't close very neatly over a really thick rope with no weak link on its end.
But then he doesn't publish his findings and only shares this information with elite members of the Priesthood - such as yourself.
And then some weekend warrior muppet like T** at K*** S****** will come up with the idea of a straight pin - foolishly and arrogantly believing it to be original - and start pumping out units. Then somebody will show up at the flight line and try to close the pin over a thick rope. And then he'll put a weak link on the end to make it easier and thus double the towline pressure required to blow tow, his weak links will no longer break when they're supposed to, and he'll lock out and die - killing the tug in the process of course.
So I don't know why you don't just publish the findings of your experiments so we'll all realize how remote our chances of improving anything are, throw in the towel, and...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.
...cease doing such damned good jobs of masking the few people who are actually working on things - like using more severely bent pins to close more easily over even thicker ropes.
- Win/Win, dude. What's the problem?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
Right. You don't put a piece of equipment into the air until it's had a minimum of ten thousand flights in midday conditions on it. Then and only then do you risk putting it in the air.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
Obviously. You've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in hang gliding. So obviously you've seen more carnage resulting from experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in hang gliding.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
It's experimentation with towing gear that's producing all those humerus spiral fracture. And STILL people won't stop experimenting with towing gear. This is total insanity.
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
At least we have you taking a stand and giving us a ray of hope.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Yeah, let's talk. Here's a list of people who've been killed on and because of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey designed aerotow equipment:
1998/10/25 - Jamie Alexander
1998/10/25 - Frank Spears
1999/02/27 - Rob Richardson
2004/06/26 - Mike Haas
2005/01/09 - Robin Strid
2005/09/03 - Arlan Birkett
2005/09/03 - Jeremiah Thompson
2009/01/03 - Steve Elliot
2009/08/31 - Roy Messing
2011/07/23 - Keavy Nenninger
2011/10/28 - Lois Preston
2013/02/02 - Zack Marzec
2014/02/24 - Mark Knight
one of them behind Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey. That's releases, weak links, and tugs. And you can throw in 2003/04/11 - Chad Elchin if you wanna count the mounting of the ballistic parachute.
Now you give me an instance of somebody being scratched as a consequence of "homemade"/"experimental" equipment.
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 20:01:12 UTC
No doubt man.
All true.
However, none of that changes the fact that there is a drastic difference between flying with production gear, as imperfect as it may be, and flying with completely untested gear.
What is it? How can one get killed more with "completely untested" gear than with production gear - especially seeing as how the deaths resulting from production gear tally to thirteen and those resulting from completely untested gear tally to zero?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/18 20:12:54 UTC
Yes.
I love innovation. However, this isn't the type of thing that's "puzzled out" on the internet.
- Name some previous examples of experimental gear that have been "puzzled out" on the internet.
- If experimental gear HAS been "puzzled out" on the internet then what's the problem with that? It didn't come from Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey working alone in his secret underground laboratories at Quest?
AKA, you're not going to figure it out here.
How the fuck would you know? Name some things that you've figured out that somebody else hadn't already decades before you started blighting the sport. You've never had a single original idea about anything at any point in your entire miserable existence.
This is real world engineering stuff.
And real world engineering stuff can't be communicated over the internet. Telephone, snail mail, telegraph, carrier pigeon, semaphore... All that'll work. Just not the internet - 'specially on the Jack and Davis Shows where anything based on math and science is instantly ripped to shreds and pissed all over.
Five minutes with Bobby Bailey is worth more than anything you're going to achieve here.
You must've spent at least ten minutes with him. Is that how you came up with the idea of pitching out abruptly to utilize a Bailey Link as an instant hands free release?
Pick your engineer of choice, Bobby's just a very good example.
I'm sorry, when was it that Bobby got his engineering degree and how many box tops did he hafta send in? Here's one of the more recent assessments of Bobby's qualifications as an engineer:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30828
Sonora wings plane crash
Larry Howe - 2014/02/25 05:32:53 UTC
I could be wrong, but the amount of fatals involving Dragonflies per Dragonfly flying would have grounded any certified aircraft. Maybe we need to spend a little more time analyzing is this just a bad design aircraft. Or will we continue to look the other way because it's one of the few games in town for towing HG. How long do you think they'd put up with Super Cubs and Pawnees crashing and killing sailplane tow pilots if they had this rate of fatals?
This is somebody who wets his pants with fear of a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot on a glider with one person clipped in but is totally cool with it if somebody else is going along for the ride.
You're asking a bunch of pilots...
...none of whom could POSSIBLY have engineering degrees or be competent practical engineers...
...to design a mechanism that needs to be extremely reliable...
Like...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...45 percent in emergency situations...
...but light.
OH SHIT!!! LIGHT. I never thought of that. I got my design up to 45 percent reliability but the thing weighs in at just under thirty pounds. And that puts my glider twenty pounds over max certified operating weight! DAMN! Back to the drawing board.
This is a tall tall order.
You're SO right.
And while that appeals greatly to the pilot ego, especially the tinkerer pilots, they're not the people that do this sort of thing.
Yep. Better just accept our status as passengers behind your tugs and...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC
Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.
Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
...leave this kind of critical work to Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey - the one person on the planet capable of...
http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/11
Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.
This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
Axel Banchero - 2009/06/20 04:57:01 UTC
I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.
...pulling it off successfully.
The end results always look simple, but the road to that simplicity is anything but.
Fuckin' brain dead little shit. I SO hope you're the next one to follow Keavy, Zack, and Mark back into the turf doing what you love on equipment Bobby Bailey has been perfecting for over twenty years.
Over three days now and not a peep. Twice in just over a year when one of you well liked professional pilot hotshots has bought it on Industry Standard equipment and none of you can open your mouths without looking like the total assholes you are. And just as many comments from Bobby and Bill Moyes as there were after Robin.
Matt, I first learned of the tragedy from your post on this forum. Thanks.
