instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape.

Avolare - 2014/03/17 01:44:37 UTC

You should unzip sooner.

Why? So he's certain to have the option of doing even more stupid dangerous shit when he needs to be landing the fucking glider?

haddieman - 2014/03/17 02:13:47 UTC
Nashville

I made a very similar poor approach once:

1:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0oe5fljLcc

No you didn't.

The important thing is to recognize what you did wrong and do your best to never let it happen again. Don't beat yourself up too much. We all make mistakes. Use it as a learning opportunity and become a better pilot because of it.

That was a fundamental inability to fly the fucking glider.

Mike Bomstad - 2014/03/17 02:16:38 UTC

Yes beat yourself up..... a lot
Dont let it happen again. Could have been worse. You got lucky.

He was goddam lucky...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c87vgq5ZFU0

11-A12819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8339/28924980016_2ba1d20ef7_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8253/28924975726_0d24a615c2_o.png
13-A14319

...he was connected to his glider. But no comment needed on that issue, Wonder Boy?

Learn the lesson and do better next time. Thats all we can do.

That's infinitely better than you'll ever be able to do.

Glad you posted and asked for comments.

Maybe he should be a bit worried about comments he's not hearing from people Jack doesn't permit to post.

Chris Kelcourse - 2014/03/17 02:25:50 UTC

Thanks guys, I knew the feedback would be harsh but I wanted to get it anyway. I did notice I was cross controlling a good bit. As for me "going for a ride" during the flight, that was planned. I had a number of flights that day and I was just having some fun at a safe altitude.

Twisting your body under the hang point isn't fun. Controlling a glider is fun.

The mistakes really started when I started planning my landing approach and continued when I failed to see what was happening.

The mistakes started at 0:49 when your foot moved. That one killed you and the rest aren't worth talking about by comparison.

As always I discussed this flight with the instructors at LMFP and will learn from my mistakes.

The "instructors" at LMFP ARE your mistakes.

I was the PIC of two tandem aerotows...

What were you using for a weak link?

...after this flight which went perfectly and I was told by the instructor I'm ready to solo, so obviously I'm not awful at this flying business.

You were told by your slope launch instructor that you were ready to solo. You weren't.

I do continue to practice at the training hills, in fact I was there the morning of this flight.

Learning to do what? Fuck the training hills at this point. You can break an arm on one of them just as well as you can break an arm landing in the primary. You might as well get a little air under you so you can play around and learn to fly.

K C Benn - 2014/03/17 02:33:44 UTC
Ogden

Wow It was a long time ago since I was an H2 so I wont judge you. It is important that you go back to your instructor and tell him you are cross controlling your glider (Your body shifts but your really not creating a turn).

Yeah, no fuckin' way anybody'd be able to figure out what to do without an instructor.

Keep your body perpendicular to you control bar. Never turn downwind when you are that close to the ground (you had plenty of room to land into the wind without another turn).

Never turn downwind when you are that close to the ground without any airspeed. Never GET that close to the ground without any airspeed - regardless of which direction you're pointed. And bear in mind that gradient may make the consequences of a downwind stall much less of a big fucking deal than those of an upwind stall.

1. unzip sooner. 2. rock up and get your hands on your uprights 1 at a time.

Why?

3. Tell your glider you are the boss (you fly the glider don't let the glider fly you).

Yeah. Get your hands up on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...and let that glider - and Mother Nature - know who's REALLY in charge.

Thanks for sharing. Keep close to your instructor and find a mentor.

Find a mentor who will tell you to distance yourself from your instructors.

CAL - 2014/03/17 02:51:19 UTC
Ogden

thanks for posting ! there is a rhyme for everything, the one I use to roll the glider is hip to the tip...

What rhymes do you use for turning a bicycle?

...glad to see you have thick skin and still willing to talk to us after all the hits you took...

Yeah, he's sure been taking some REALLY NASTY...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

...hits. Just breaks my heart to see the way he's being treated.

...that right there tells me you will be a fine pilot, keep with it !

What does this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


tell you about what kind of pilot Zack Marzec will be?

Christopher Albers - 2014/03/17 12:14:20 UTC
Lawrenceville, Georgia

Everyone has pretty much covered what happened.

BULL...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

...SHIT.

As an inexperienced pilot myself, all I can say is never turn that close to the ground!

As an inexperienced and clueless "pilot" yourself you should shut the fuck up.

Stuff like that is for the pros...

Like pro towing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


In REAL aviation the strategy is to get you duplicating what the "pros" are doing from Day One, Flight One. You need to be looking at what the best of the best...

http://vimeo.com/36062225

13-3826
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14023968220_1a5cf14aa5_o.png

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA

40-12812

42-13014

...are actually doing and constantly working your way towards it.

we newbies need to make the envelope as big as possible until we become competent and experienced pilots.

EVERYBODY *ALWAYS* needs to make the envelope as big as possible for the critical phases of flight - launch and landing. And the main issues involved in doing that are:
- going off and coming in with as much speed as practical
- minimizing or eliminating the time your hands aren't on the basetube
- maximizing:
-- efficiency of runway use
-- the range of options

Competent pilots - experienced or not - DO NOT...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

...use techniques highly dependent upon skill and/or luck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46pvhPUM5-Q


...to pull things off and/or look cool.

I think you tried to make one DBF too many...

He wasn't flying.

...you should have landed on the previous final into the wind.

The maximum number of FINALS one can have on any given landing is ONE.

You could have easily pulled in to lose altitude and had plenty of groundspeed to land safely.

You don't need groundspeed to land safely. The ideal groundspeed for landing safely is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnpwVpT76Rs


...zero miles per hour. Works well for launching as well.

So what if you go longer than planned?

At Lockout? Nothing. Therefore you should always aim for the traffic cone in the middle of the field, treat the first half of the runway as nonexistent, and never practice the low fast turns you'll need for tight approaches into tight fields.

I'm glad you are OK, though. That could have ended much, much worse.

Like this takeoff/landing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


did for one of the late Mark Knight's students? Any ideas on anything that could be done different to widen the safety envelope a bit? Just kidding.

Even though you should have more speed when landing, you were lucky that you didn't.

Yeah. If you had had more airspeed when you stalled the effects of that stall would've been horrendous. Just like if Bryan's weak link had been stronger the stall resulting from its failure would've been even more horrendous. So make sure you never come in with any more airspeed than you had and never use any weak link material heavier than 130 pound Greenspot.

But if you get tired of getting dumped into a stall every other tow just read Dr. Trisa Tilletti's article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine so you can learn to tie it such that it holds to twice the strength of what numerous aerotow operators across the county found to be ideal over several decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of tows. Same level off lockout and glider stress protection but just half the inconvenience.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape.

Christopher Albers - 2014/03/17 12:14:20 UTC

Everyone has pretty much covered what happened. As an inexperienced pilot myself, all I can say is never turn that close to the ground! Stuff like that is for the pros... we newbies need to make the envelope as big as possible until we become competent and experienced pilots.

What qualifies you to say something like that? What data or anecdotal evidence do you have to justify it?

In a SANE world the best advice anyone could give would be to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

...never take your hands off the bar and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

...fuck the spot. But what are we seeing here?

Billy Joe - 2014/03/17 00:13:40 UTC

Fly a long straight final! Get upright and on the down tubes much sooner. Get upright and dirty. You can then use your airspeed to control your approach to your landing target.

Unchallenged?

This guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpfiNy9fae8


http://ozreport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

2010/06/26 - John Seward

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it's difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

did pretty much the same thing at the beginning of the "flight" that Chris did at the end for EXACTLY the same reasons. And he's NEVER gonna have the opportunity to become a competent and experienced pilot.

There is NO WAY IN HELL I'd ever sign off a Two until he could do a crisp coordinated 180 off of a hundred foot training hill about as will as I could. Pull the fuckin' bar in a bit then snap it around. If you can do it at a thousand feet you can do it at thirty feet. You think the risk and difficulty of something like that holds a CANDLE to...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...the bullshit standup landings everybody gets forced to "perfect" starting Day One, Flight One?

NOBODY needs to be learning those landings or landing in shit where they come in useful. But the vast majority of people who fly WILL be launching and working light lift in close proximity to hard stuff and a reasonable percentage will be flying XC or even home environments and putting themselves in situations in which they need to use landing options efficiently. And the LAST thing a not particularly gifted victim of a program like Lockout's needs to hear is one of you Jack Show douchebags creating an artificial paranoia of a necessary, simple, safe, easily learned, basic skill.

If you wanna scare the crap out of him in a manner that'll do nothing but benefit him - along with his buddies - then tell him what's happened to a lot of regular Joes...

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

...who've run off of launch ramps without having done anything to verify their connections within the previous couple of seconds.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape.

Jorge Zingg Jorge - 2014/03/17 08:24:55 UTC
Switzerland

I think the advice has been quite good...

If you wanna stay welcome on The Jack Show it never hurts to think all the advice is good.

I agree mostly with flyking about unzipping earlier.

I agree mostly with Mike Meier that foot landings are insanely difficult and Christian Thoreson that wheel landings are brain dead easy.

My instructor once told me, if you blew it and are too low, and the wind is not to hard (as it looks in your video), it might be a better idea to land downwind instead of doing a last turn into the ground...

You needed an instructor to tell you that?

It would be interesting to know what was your "landing plan" in your head?

Like it would be interesting to know what was in Zack Marzec's head about how well he was gonna be able to handle towing into a monster thermal with his pro toad bridle and Rooney Link.

I have noticed that when I have one, I get my landings better (not always, but mostly), but if I don't have it, I almost certainly make a face plant.

I have noticed that:
- on the average standup landing efforts suck and wheel landings are perfect
- landings in wheel unfriendly environments are virtually nonexistent
- the vast majority of crashes and injuries in hang gliding are the sole result of standup landing attempts in wheel friendly environments
- most people who fly hang gliders are off-the-scale stupid

This is one of the better ones.

Yeah. That was one of my better ones too. And near the end of my career I started thinking...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

(BTW: I'm also a victim of cross controlling.)

I know a really good solution to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW5T9EF0H_Q

Good thing you whipstalled that one to a dead stop and stayed on your feet, dude.

Mike Badley - 2014/03/18 01:45:31 UTC

Watching paicolman's video - there's a lot of good stuff there. He doesn't use the DBF approach but instead has good, meaty 180's that chew up altitude but not the landing field.

Bullshit.
- He DOES us a wide, high, sloppy, mostly pointless DBF approach.
- He does ONE 180 to come back from an extended base leg and a zag to come back from an extended return and get lined up for final.
- If we're considering that light/bright green square as the landing field he doesn't chew any of it up 'cause he's nowhere near over it.

He is UNZIPPED before committing to the approach...

Thank GOD!!!

...he is keeping speed on, he gets a nice one hand transition, then moves the second hand up, good high hands on the downtubes...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...and has a great flare.

Lucky for him.

Well, that's about as good as it gets.

Bullshit. It's a dangerous landing that he's getting away with in a brain dead easy and safe environment. Out in the REAL world:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - - 2012/03/14 15:17:14

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

http://ozreport.com/8.133
The European Championships at Millau

Gerolf Heinrichs - 2004/06/24

Bad news from the Europeans in Millau - and it's not just about the weather!

This is the major hang gliding event of the season and was expected to be the highlight of the European competition flying. Due to a most competent organising team around meet director Richard Walbec everybody expected only the very best from it.

Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.

THIS:

3:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WsvXEuZWeo

13-13015

14-31323

15-31719


is about as good as it gets. She stays zipped, keeps her hands in the position where she maximizes control authority and minimizes risk of getting an arm broken, and maximizes safety margins and she can do it CONSISTENTLY - which NO ONE who does it the way paicolman does can.

And what Niki is doing is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM
Hang Gliding, Landing on Wheels

Niki Longshore - 2014/02/10

Until I master the foot stuff, I'm bound to "training wheels." Basic landing approach (downwind, base, final). Final approach with lots of speed and gentle touch down on wheels. Though I don't know what it's like to land on my feet (yet), I am enjoying the wheels!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...FUN. And the bullshit that Chris is doing is SCARY.

Larry Howe - 2014/03/18 05:33:34 UTC

To help stop the cross controlling, try centering your head/shoulders in the middle of your base tube with your hands equally spaced on the base tube. Then use your arms to swing your hips and feet in the direction you want to turn. Once you've masters that moving the rest of your body will be second nature.

Shoulda been second nature well before he was signed off on his fuckin' Two.

Also unzip much higher to reduce your workload when you're approaching the LZ.

Any "thinking" on anything Niki:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM

22-10425
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4280/34683465364_581746cbbd_o.png

27-11304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4285/35357512082_a822d7522c_o.png

33-12400
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4207/35532646465_578358accc_o.png

36-12714
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4290/35357510462_7bcf60c93e_o.png


could be doing to reduce HER workload? How 'bout Doug?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

1-2717
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png
6-4518

That way all your attention will be focused on a proper landing.

Yeah.

Get with a local instructor, show him/her the video and get their input.

He's entirely the product of local instructors.

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2014/03/18 11:47:43 UTC

At the risk of piling on... If you feel your landing approach going to hell don't hesitate to pull in some speed and bring it in on the wheels.

I've got another way of looking at this... If you feel your landing approach is heading you towards a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place don't hesitate to rotate to upright and try to stop it on your feet. You've got a reasonably good chance of...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3858
Landing in the Big T wash

NMERider - 2013/04/05 21:09:27 UTC

There have been a number of bad landing incidents in the wash by a variety of experienced pilots because it is a dangerous bailout, period. It is NOT the club's landing zone either. It is a bailout and when it's hot on the surface it can and will bite you in the ass.

...getting away with it once or twice.

It might be the best call for the conditions.

It's fuckin' obviously the best call for ANY sane landing conditions.

Everyone has had crappy landings, not everyone owns up to them.

Crappy conventional fixed wing aircraft are virtually nonexistent compared to bullshit upright hang glider landings.

Jorge Zingg Jorge - 2014/03/18 13:34:59 UTC

As Lucky Chevy pointed out: Everyone has a crappy landing now and then. Here is one of my recent ones... Same pilot as the one of the "good example" before, just another day, other site, less concentration. Not "real bad", bad not good either.


4:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_iUx-wO1I

LAND ON THE FUCKING WHEELS. You slammed down on the fucking wheels anyway. Stop abusing and risking abuse of your glider on EVERY FLIGHT for NO REASON.

Brad Barkley - 2014/03/18 13:40:34 UTC

Everyone has already giving you good advice, so I'll just have one thing. The training hill is great, but it won't help you practice your landing approaches.

Not if you treat low turns like plutonium.

Instead, wait until you get your aerotow sign off And then fly a bunch of patterns so you can just practice approaches and landings.

These fuckin' douchebags send all the fresh meat to training hill hell where they:
- are bolted into forced upright "training harnesses"
- learn to do hang checks while they're waiting for the five students in front of them to launch
- foot launch
- fly arrow straight down the hill
- attempt to whipstall all their landings to dead stops

Then they take them up to a thirteen and a half hundred foot ramp, still bolted into their upright only torture harnesses, throw them off a couple times, sign their Twos, and declare them competent pilots.

And then when they find out the hard way that they're not they all come whining over to you idiots to fix their problems.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30929
Doh! My worst landing ever, caught on tape.

Hey Dan...

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2014/03/18 11:47:43 UTC

If you feel your landing approach going to hell don't hesitate to pull in some speed and bring it in on the wheels.

- If you're coming into something on which you can safely bring it in on the wheels why would you be trying to land on your feet in the first place?

- So you're saying that bringing it in on the wheels is a SAFER EASIER option than going for your feet?

- I was under the impression that hang gliders only landed in narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. Wouldn't bringing it in on the wheels be almost certain death?

- Doesn't he already HAVE speed? Or is it the case that you can come in with a lot better speed when you're proned out with your hands on the basetube than you can upright with your hands on the downtubes?

- Isn't he a lot more likely to break his neck coming in headfirst?

- If he just starts opting for a wheel landing every time he thinks it may be dangerous to land on his feet how's he ever gonna be able to take his foot landings serious enough to perfect them?

- What happens to him:
-- after he's gotten good enough to fly without wheels?
-- when he's flying at a Davis Meet and can't afford the drag penalty imposed by wheels?

- How come:
-- there's nothing in any of the glider owners' manuals about bringing it in on the wheels?
-- his fine professional instructors never taught him to bail to the wheels when the foot option's going to hell?

- So the emergency response to a compromised foot landing is a wheel landing? I thought a foot landing was an emergency response to a compromised landing area. This is most confusing.

Guess your recommendation is pretty solid. Don't hear any of the Jack Show douchebags...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

...taking any issue with it.

Maybe when you get a little more time you can address the issue of legitimacy of teaching new students foot landings. Is it because training programs suck so much at teaching people to fly because they're so focused on teaching them to foot land that they're afraid they're gonna miss the LZ on their first high sled runs and need to be able to foot land?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30824
Article "Pushing Out" Feb 2014 HG mag

NMERider - 2014/02/25 06:05:06 UTC

Steve,

What part of:

...his rather nonsensical and too-often phantasmagorical version of physics and aerodynamics.

wasn't clear?

Ryan is a classic example of a superbly talented athlete who is ill-equipped to write a comprehensive training manual or academically meaningful text. Ryan has given me and many others excellent advice in a one-on-one situation but when it comes to writing in more general terms he should either leave to others or hire an editor to re-phrase or correct his errors.

I try to take the underlying meaning of what I think he tries to convey and just ignore the rest. I have met plenty of people who can do and can instruct directly but cannot write an instruction manual. It's a different talent. There are also plenty of great coaches who are lousy athletes.

Yeah. He's a dumb jock. But he's also a lying Industry player and as far as I'm concerned anybody in this game who's one percent untrustworthy is one hundred percent untrustworthy. And Ryan's ALWAYS been WAY north of one percent - and always will be.

When I was starting out I DEVOURED crash and fatality reports - and that interest never waned. And back in those days there was enough integrity left in the sport for that material to be published in the magazine...

Doug Hildreth - 1982/03

1981/01/18 - Dan Cudney - 32 - Intermediate - 100 winch flights - Spout Springs, North Carolina - Seahawk - Yarnall winch - head, chest, thigh
Low-level lockout. Release was on downtube, difficulty in locating.

1981/04/12 - Joel Lewis - 31 - Advanced - Columbia, South Carolina - Seagull, 10 Meter - Atlantic Ultralight Mini-Hill winch
Low-level lockout. Hands on downtubes, release on basetube, missed on first attempt. Hit head first.

...with the actual and obvious issues clearly identified. Nothing like seeing how to do things wrong to learn how to do things right.

And where the fuck is Ryan after somebody crashes and burns while and because of following the standard operating procedures he works so hard to protect?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/06/29 13:59:51 UTC

In accordance with USHPA, the accident report was submitted 6-16, the evening of the accident.

OK...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC

Here's how it really works:

- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.

- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.

- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.

So from the fact that Tim Herr had it vaporized we can conclude that he found that the report represented a great legal risk to the national organization. And the fact that...

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

...you wouldn't release any information about what happened to the hang gliding public strongly indicates you had similar concerns.

Wanna comment, Sam? Just kidding.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/06/29 13:59:51 UTC

In accordance with USHPA, the accident report was submitted 6-16, the evening of the accident.

In accordance with USHPA...

- What the fuck does that mean? When a bad pin man on a platform rig hits the dump lever on a glider and kills it there's a USHGA SOP that mandates a report be submitted no later than three hours after local sunset time? So what are the penalties for noncompliance?

- How do the penalties for not having reported killing a towed glider compare to the penalties for killing the towed glider?

...the accident report was submitted 6-16...

- "Was submitted"? You can't even tell us WHO submitted it? Did you have any input? Did you read it? Was it any more extensive than: "Dude on a hang or para glider got killed this afternoon here in southwest Texas. Real bummer."?

- Why was no report submitted to US Hawks? Both the victim and perpetrator were members and staunch advocates of Bob's dictatorship, neither douchebag organization has any mandate for incident reports or sanctions for failing to report. And while Bob is deeply concerned about making his cult...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=884
The Bob Show

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/13 05:55:39 UTC

If I boot you permanently it will be due to my concerns over the topic we discussed on the phone. This forum should be a safe place for people of varying ages to visit. You have not given me any assurances that's true with you on this forum.

...a safe place for people of varying ages at least to visit, USHGA...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.

...doesn't give a rat's ass about the safety of ANYONE of ANY varying age. It's totally hostile to anything and anyone capable of widening the margins.

Really confused, Sam. Please help me understand the thinking here.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30914
Torrey Pines Accident

Steve Forslund - 2014/03/19 11:45:43 UTC

If I left every site just because I ran into one idiot I would not have anywhere to fly.
Plenty of idiots in this world.

Where do you go to aerotow where you can eliminate the possibility of what happened to Zack Marzec happening to you?

What competitions can you fly that aren't controlled by total scumbags like Davis who...

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2014 Big Spring Nationals Rules

2014 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Appropriate aerotow bridles

Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://OzReport.com/9.039#0

and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2



Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

...force you to fly the cheap deadly bent pin pro toad shit they pass off as towing equipment and the deadly one-size-fits-all fishing line lockout preventers they refuse to identify until after you've shown up?

Where can you go and be confident that you won't have a driver who's wired to fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope based upon an official towing manual written by a motherfucker who'd be dead if his driver had adhered to the guidelines when the shit hit the fan?

When any idiot with the bucks and "right" connections can sail through the rating, instructor certification, and appointments processes and never be held accountable for anything and the accident reporting system has become virtually nonexistent because it's controlled by an organization and its lawyer entirely motivated to make sure nothing ever gets fixed you end up with a climate that's safe for only the rare individual who's been able to navigate around all the crap and only when his safety is dependent upon no one but himself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30957
USHPA TOW Administrators.

Garrett Speeter (AlaskanNewb) - 2014/03/19 23:59:02 UTC
Fairbanks

I just got truck towing payout rig. I have never truck towed before and have only done thirty or so aerotows. I am a H4. Done a lot of power harnesses and trikes but never truck towed.

We have two other H4's that have used the rig I bought, but I...need to talk to an outside expert. Have tried lots of forums, got lots of good info so far. Thought I would mine this one for info too.

Are their any USHPA tow admins on here?

I don't know about THERE, BUT...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 1 - 2012/06

We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

Aerotow launch faliure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj-qBsETXPg
Oliver Chitty - 2014/03/02
dead
07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png
15-413

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TDHqsXRtl0
Aerotowing Weaklinks

David Glover - 2008/08/04

First we start off with Cortland Line Company Greenspot... This is what we use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1184
aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates

Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC

It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.

Appalling.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


http://www.ohioflyers.org/showthread.php?t=1188
Upcoming Flying - OhioFlyers.org

Frank Murphy - 2012/11/08 00:43 UTC
Hilliard, Ohio

Things I've Learned

I would like to share a bit of hard earned knowledge with all those who aerotow. It may be just me that it escaped and if so, excuse my ignorance but...

For those who tow:

If you have a complete loss of power during a tow, make the very first thing you do, without a moment of hesitation, RELEASE THE TOW LINE AND DROP THE NOSE.

For those on tow:

When the tug is experiencing engine problems, GET OFF THE LINE WITHOUT HESITATION.

While towing and with a complete loss of power, the tug stalls immediately. Any hesitation to release only amplifies the problem and with no altitude to recover, bad things happen.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=11565


http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=11566

Dr. Trisa Tilletti 2 - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

Hope that helps a bit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Holger Selover-Stephan - 2009/08/27 07:07:30 UTC


My head hurts.

Alan Wengren - 2009/08/27 18:36:22 UTC


If I had a head like that mine would hurt too!

... just kidding!

Tad Eareckson - 2009/08/27 18:53:18 UTC


Ostrich, isn't it? How ironic.

Holger Selover-Stephan - 2009/08/27 19:05:43 UTC


Hey Tad, that would have been a real good one! Wrong bird though, it's an emu. Fail again.

Tad Eareckson - 2009/08/28 14:15:22 UTC


No, actually it's NOT an Emu.

Asshole.