Weak links

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

If the weaklink is at one end of the bridle then there is little to no reason to replace the weaklink after each flight.
- What if the weak link is at TWO ends of the bridle?

- Lotsa times...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...you don't have any choice.

- I can think of a REAL good reason to replace that piece of shit...

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...you total fucking assholes force everybody to fly with. It would be hard to go wrong replacing every last item of crap you Industry shits peddle as "aerotow equipment" with ANYTHING else.
The weaklink should be replaced if it shows any signs of wear as its strength may be reduced.
- So? That just makes it safer, right?

- What if a 200 pound glider wants her weak link to be proportionally as safe as it is for a 350 pound glider?

- Why are you telling us this? All weaklinks will be checked...
All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
...and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weak link. Isn't a weak link that shows signs of wear just as inappropriate as No. 8 bricklayer's twine because of the inconsistency of its breaking point? So no fuckin' way it's gonna be allowed to make it to hookup.

And all the major AT operations have similar highly qualified individuals making similar safety checks. So pretty much everyone knows that you don't hook up with a weak link if it shows any sign of wear, right?
The weaklink is constructed using "fisherman's knots."
- No shit.

- So why is Fisherman's Knots inside of quotation marks? Is it as bogus a term as "appropriate weak link"?

- Oh. This is what you're gonna show us how to tie so that the weak link more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength. We're gonna be qualified to aerotow in competition conditions with appropriate pro toad bridles but we're not gonna know how to tie a "fisherman's knot" so that the weak link more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

- Name some other knots capable of holding a loop on the end of a bridle that makes the weak link less likely to break at its "rating breaking strength". And cite the test data and/or anecdotal evidence which supports this bullshit.
A single loop of weaklink is used at the end of the V-bridle or the end of the pro tow bridle.
- Well yeah. You pigfuckers just mandated it. And who are we muppets to question your wisdom and authority?

- So there's no increased load on a weak link installed on a "V-bridle" like this:

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relative to what's going on with a "P-Bridle" like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/
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And who gives a fuck anyway? For many years a number you (US pilots) have felt that No. 8 bricklayer's nylon line is not an appropriate material to use for weak links as it is not as consistent in its breaking strength (as far as you're concerned) as the Greenspot line used in the US. We don't hafta worry about towline tension, G ratings, the purpose of the weak link, the dangers of using weak links near, at, and off the bottom end of the FAA legal range because we have the Greenspot line that a number of you (US pilots) feel is an appropriate material to use for weak links because:
- it's consistent in its breaking strength (as far as you're concerned); and
- everyone in the US uses it.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots at the 2007 Worlds were not actually required to use the bridles pictures above unless their bridle couldn't be hooked up quickly to the carabineer at the end of the tow rope.
Super, Davis. I can't tell you how much I enjoy participating in a flavor of aviation in which shitheads like you pull rules without justifications or bases in reality out of their asses and decide not to enforce them or just enforce them selectively.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.
They could have a weaklink (four strands) that connected their bridle to the carabineer.
I also enjoy participating in a flavor of aviation controlled by shitheads who couldn't spell simple, phonetically consistent, fundamental hang gliding words like "carabiner" if staked to anthills fifteen feet from ten foot high neon signs giving the correct spellings. (The 2013 National Spelling Bee was a thirteen-year-old named Arvind Mahankali who won on "knaidel".)
They just had to have the loops of the weaklink available to be hooked to by the ground crew.
Well sure. Let's make every effort we can to people who are determined to fly using stupid shit.
This would obviously require a carabineer...
I SO wish that everyone who spelled carabiner that way would die extremely painful deaths over periods of around six hours.
...at the end of the tow rope, and would leave the weaklink attached to the carabineer after the pilot releases, requiring that it be taken off by the ground crew before hooking up to the next pilot. Of course, a locking carabineer could be used.
Really?

http://ozreport.com/12.083
Carabineers and their cousins
Davis Straub - 2008/04/24 14:15:40 UTC

Quest now uses very inexpensive light non locking aluminum carabineers, the kind that often are used on key chains. These are much cheaper and lighter than the ones I linked to in the first article about Bernie's accident. Carabineers like this:

http://www.absorbentprinting.com/tools-and-knives/carabiners/carabiners/budget-carabiner-large
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I thought Quest had spent twenty years...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21377
AT several Questions
Davis Straub - 2011/04/05 14:00:25 UTC

The flight park procedures here at Quest Air are the result of years of evolutionary pressures and experience that provide the focus on safety. The practices here illustrate what is important.

- The construction of the carts (materials, wheel rake, tightness of the axles, etc.)
- The length of the tow lines.
- The appropriate carabineer.
- The launch procedures (signals).
- The maintenance of the 914 tugs.
- The weaklink strength and construction of the connection to the tug.
- The glider angle in the carts.
...researching the perfect carabineer design to minimize the probability of a wrap.

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But we can just ignore all that effort, expertise, genius, track record...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...and throw on any ol' carabineer that we feel like? What would Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
...have to say about doing something like that?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

It was required that pilots be able to be connected to the tow line quickly both in order to be fair to all pilots...
Yeah, let's make sure we're FAIR to all pilots...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
'Specially the two hundred pounders flying Davis Links...

http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2005/02/07

For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
...you miserable goddam piece o' shit.
...and get them in the air in time to compete with each other...
See above - motherfucker.
...as well as to promote safety.
PROMOTE safety? From some total sleazebag who's spent most of his energy over the course of his entire hang gliding career doing the precise and extreme opposite at virtually every opportunity?
It is safer to have a simple uniform release/bridle system...
- Oh. So now all the sudden a "bridle" is a "release/bridle system". Why the change to something halfway intelligent sounding?

- Yeah make sure it's SIMPLE. We sure don't want stuff like engineering, functionality, capacity, reliability, control rearing their ugly heads.

- And what could be SIMPLER than a pro toad bridle?

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None of that Rube Goldberg...

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...three point crap.

- And UNIFORM. If someone were to see a straight pin release he'd freak out knowing that it would be difficult to close over a thick rope without use of a weak link.
...that the ground crew is familiar with and can determine if there is a problem.
Definitely. If some brain dead cart monkey...

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...appointed by a really awesome competition pilot such as yourself...

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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?
Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.
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...or a really awesome tug pilot such as Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...
The Press - 2006/03/15

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

However, he took off without attaching himself.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
...isn't familiar with what the qualified and rated Pilot In Command of the fuckin' glider selected, tested, preflighted then who knows WHAT...

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...could happen?
The simpler and more uniform the safer, system wide.
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Sure, Davis. We all really appreciate the effort you expended pulling that statement out from that far up your ass - just shy of head penetration distance - so we'll gobble it down with relish and fight each other over who gets to lick the bowl.
Getting pilots into the air quickly is also safer as it reduces the stress that pilots feel on the ground and keeps them focused on their job which is to launch safely and without hassling the ground crew or themselves.
Sure. Really hard to argue against a position...

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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...that fucking obvious.
When we look at safety we have to look at the whole system, not just one component of that system.
- Who the fuck is "WE", Davis? You and a bunch of other Industry shits plus...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?
Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.
...plus the scum you permit to post on your shitty little locked down forum?

- Why bother looking at the whole system? Why not just focus on...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots
Wallaby Ranch - 2014/05/29

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.
...it's focal point? Everybody knows it's physically impossible to get so much as scratched at an aerotow operation as long as you've got a Davis Link on one end of your pro toad bridle.
One pilot may feel that one component is unsafe from his point of view and desire a different approach, but accommodating one pilot can reduce the overall safety of the system.
Yeah, like T** at K*** S******. This is the FIRST TIME I've realized that this whole load of crap was a strike against me.
HIGHER EDUCATION - 2012/06
TIE A (BETTER) WEAK LINK

by Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman

TRACY: Unlike the FAA's relatively clear-cut legal rules, the practical aspects of weak link technology and application are not so clear-cut. For some people, talking about weak links is more like talking about religion, politics, or global warming--they can get very emotional about it and have difficulty discussing it logically, rationally, or with civility.

LISA: So let's try to talk about it rationally, logically, and practically here.

What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.

LISA: I m looking forward to that. You were right; this has been a serious and technical discussion.
I look forward to any response from the HGFA or other interested persons.
Of course you do, Davis. Just like your fellow pigfucker Dr. Trisa Tilletti wants a logical, rational, civil, practical discussion of the same issues in an environment he doesn't totally control.
Again, I have a direct personal and minor financial interest in the issues raised by this discussion...
No fuckin' shit. You owe your entire existence to this aerotow industry Ponzi scheme you motherfuckers are constantly propping up with hundreds of miles of duct tape.
...but no financial interest when it comes to weaklink material.
Oh, you're not getting rich from sales of spools of fishing line. I guess that means we should all trust every word you say. My apologies.
Discuss Weaklinks at the Oz Report forum
Sure. We can do that. And as sure as death and taxes whenever you and your fellow Industry pigfuckers start getting ripped to shreds you'll lock down threads, delete posts, and ban people.

I can't even begin to tell you just how much you and the shits who let you get away with the crap you've been pulling for the past decade and a half or so disgust me. Please do the sport and planet a huge favor and break your fuckin' neck next time.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37685
Joe plows
Jim Rooney - 2014/06/05 15:13:16 UTC

Sorry, I'm going to be "that guy" for a second. Mainly because watching sketchy sh(t and bad decisions.. over and over.. gets a bit irritating.

The "best" prevention for pounding in is not to land behind treelines when it's blowing 15+
The wind - by all accounts and as supported by the video evidence - was blowing dead perpendicular to the treeline which is EXACTLY parallel to the runway. So were you assholes launching gliders in fifteen plus at ninety cross? I've seen flying at Ridgely scrubbed for a good bit less.
The "best" way to avoid being in that situation is not to try and squeak in over the treeline for a relight.
Sorry, I love Joe, but a bad decision is a bad decision.
And here's what Joe said when he posted the video - three days before you threw YOUR two cents in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaScVhk3Xxw
Don't land in rotor
Joe Schmucker - 2014/06/02

I thought I could make it over the tree line. I made a BAD decision. I should have landed in the field.
and right after he'd slammed in real hard, done at least about three hundred bucks worth of damage to his glider, hurt himself a bit, knocked himself out of the competition (which had some excellent soaring days in store which are now forever lost to his flying career), and come frighteningly close to getting his neck broken.

But it sure is a good thing he has Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to make sure that he knows that he made a bad decision. Otherwise he might have lapsed into deluding himself that he'd really nailed the task and everyone had been in total awe of his prowess.
This wan't a matter of "pulling in" to "pull it off"... this was a matter of "don't play with the dragon".
Wow. A rotor AND a dragon. Really amazing that he was able to walk away. Almost certainly because of his Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation. There's just not much those things cannot do. Lockouts, high angles of attack, stalls, excessive pilot panic, draggings, dragons... Probably druggings as well.
Why am I on a rant?...
'Cause you're perpetually on rants about what a bunch of clueless muppets the people who actually fly hang gliders - the people YOU and your fuckin' douchebag professional pilot colleagues have trained, rated, certified, equipped, deemed fit to hook up behind you - are?
because the very next day!!!! An other guy did the exact same nonsense move... he fortunately/unfortunately got away with it (barely).
THE NEXT DAY!
An other fifteen plus / ninety cross day after you towed him up? Guess the Rooney Links were keeping the lockouts down to a manageable level.
Sadly, one of the side effects of competition flying is that it brings out the worst in decision making.
Which deviates from the BEST in decision making...

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...how and by how much?
Yesterday, John pounded in while attempting a landing approach that I wouldn't try on a calm day with a beginner glider...
Which is probably about all you've been doing in quite a few years. 'Cause if you did any REAL flying of any REAL gliders in any REAL conditions...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
...it wouldn't take too long to see just how totally full of shit hang gliding's Patron Saint of Landing is. And, of course, they'd also see that he:

- isn't all that hot a pilot when he doesn't have an engine to get him to altitude

- might not be all that hot at managing a Rooney Link pop to hold it down to the level of inconvenience - hopefully not any better than his friend Zack Marzec was

- wouldn't be any better at effecting the easy reach to his Industry Standard release than any of the muppets who haven't been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who are
and why?... convenience! WTF Over?
He had gigantic fields to land in with so many unobstructed paths to victory, but chose to thread the needle between a bunch of solid objects and failed...
You don't teach people how to land in gigantic fields with many unobstructed paths to victory. You teach them to land on their feet on traffic cones so's they'll be able to safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.
so he could be closer to the launch line?

Guys really... quit pounding into the earth, please.
Keep telling everybody that, Jim. It's pretty fuckin' obvious that the motivation just isn't really there otherwise. And while you're at it, it never hurts to remind people they need to be hooked into their gliders before running off the ramp.

And I'm sure in years to come scores of people will get in touch with you and tell you about all the times they would've pounded in and run off the ramp unhooked - save for your constant admonitions - and thank you from the bottoms of their hearts.

I don't know how the sport managed to get along for three decades before you arrived. And the thought of you ever leaving it fills my heart with fear and trepidation.
I realize it's a competition.
Probably because you break your routine of towing gliders up all day long to tow gliders up all day long.
I realize that you want to win...
Yes, you realize THEY want to win. But you yourself haven't ever experienced the psychological pressures and dynamics of competitions 'cause you've never actually FLOWN in any. You're just so much better suited for flying a tug up and down and up and down and presenting yourself as God's Gift of a cure for all the incompetence of the muppets flying hang gliders.
but please realize the extra risks you're taking on.
What extra risks? People don't try to make it back into the periphery of the airport and land close to where it's most convenient on non comp weekends? I've had somebody clip the top of my kingpost while my glider was parked in the breakdown area on a non comp weekend. John Simon clipped a taxiway sign and broke two arms on a Thursday morning sled at a mostly empty airport solely because he couldn't conceive of the idea of bailing on his goal of landing on his feet as close as humanly possible to his predetermined traffic cone.
I'm sick and tired of calling the ambulance.
Seems like all these Ridgely ambulances are getting called for people LANDING - Paul Tjaden, Paul Adamez, John Simon, Paul Vernon, John Dullahan (seems to be a pattern relating to first names - probably oughta do a study).

And yet, strangely, there hasn't been ONE SINGLE LEGITIMATE REPORT of a pilot being locked out on launch / in the kill zone having his ass saved by a Rooney Link. And does anybody think for a nanosecond that if there HAD been such an incident that you 130 pound Greenspot motherfuckers wouldn't be screaming about it from the tallest towers in the kingdom at every opportunity? (Same way you're always screaming about how Paul Tjaden's Tad-O-Link didn't prevent him from locking out?)

Also, since there's no argument whatsoever against the fact that Rooney Links are...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
...NOTORIOUSLY crappy...

07-300
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11-311
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15-413
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09-1927
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11-2201
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13-2321
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14-2404
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17-2601
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05-1318
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07-1522
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09-1712
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10-1722
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11-1814
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12-1915
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...lockout protectors it's a no fuckin' brainer that if one ass is saved by a Rooney Link there will be twenty that won't be. So where are they?

Where are the:

- muppets singing praises of the Rooney Link who've had their asses saved by a Rooney Link 'cause they thought they could fix bad things and didn't want to start over?

- twenty times as many muppets whose asses got creamed 'cause when they pitched out abruptly to actuate their instant hands free releases the proper cards didn't appear on the draws?

Let's make it easy. Let's say that the 130 pound Greenspot focal point of our safe towing system saves fifty percent of the asses entrusted to it. Where are the reports and videos of the coin tossers who DID have their tails saved but only because their heads functioned as crumple zones?

When Mitch...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
...Shipley teaches students how to get things back under control after a Rooney Link pop...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U


...how come he ONLY addresses ones like THESE:

015-02819
http://live.staticflickr.com/2907/14605946141_8443210741_o.png
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027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png
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047-03703
http://live.staticflickr.com/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
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...which result only in inconvenience and makes no mention whatsoever of the ones like THIS:

11-1814
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which increase the safety of the towing operation? Don't the students have to be told that they need to get the glider level before rounding out and flaring? No, wait... He's well beyond the placard limitation. Probably using a Tad-O-Link like the one that failed to prevent Paul Tjaden's lockout. Forget I brought the issue up.

We know from Marc Fink...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...that a Rooney Link is only effective at 250 or higher - a bit more than parachute height. So don't you have quite a few lockouts below 250 feet in which your proven system works but not quite soon enough? Same way we have fatalities as consequences of midairs below two hundred feet and the parachutes don't open soon enough.

Look motherfucker...

It's pretty goddam obvious that:

- virtually all of your crashes...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
... and serious injuries are LANDING related

- low level lockouts are virtually nonexistent

- when there IS a low level lockout (Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Roy Messing, Steve Elliot, Lois Preston, Ollie Chitty) a Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation slightly more than shark repellant and slightly less than a snakebite kit

Doesn't every shred of evidence that we've been accumulating for decades and continue to accumulate every weekend scream at the top of its lungs that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...being on tow is about a thousand times safer than being dumped into a stall, forced into an emergency landing, having to get on the cart again for another trip through through the kill zone with the same Rooney Link expecting better results?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot ;)
Hahahahhaa...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image

We didn't pull aviation THEORY out of our asses the way you pulled your reality out of yours. In a sane Rooney-free universe theory explains and predicts reality. And reality...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
...was what your friend got a face full of as a total consequence of your opinion based version of aviation.

P.S. Is this anonymous little friend of yours who likes to say stuff still around?

P.P.S. A couple weeks ago over in Bob's lunatic asylum Bill Cummings started a lunatic towing technology/procedures thread. I started covering it here in the "bridles" thread which, as things began, was the best match. But it quickly (d)evolved into a weak link focus.

For the sake of continuity I've kept the hatchet job at its original home but this one's a weak link mother lode the likes of which I've never seen before. Start skimming from:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post6084.html#p6084

if you haven't been tuning in to that one and are interested - particularly if you also really despise Bob or would like to more than you do now.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely
Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

It was pretty quiet at Ridgely when we arrived at noon. Brian VH and Felix were there-- and Sammi (sp) and Bertrand... and Soraya Rios from the ECC. She was not flying.

Felix test flew Bertrand's T2C for about an hour and loved it. Brian had a short flight on a Falcon. I got on the flight line at a little after 1 pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank...
Of course it did. Thrill riders ALWAYS take precedence over people with solo gliders and rating cards in their pockets.
...and went ahead of me.
No shit.
The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link.
No shit.
I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'.
No shit.
Back to the end of the line.
No shit.

What? I thought you only had to go to the BACK of the line for...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
INappropriate weak links - ones that DON'T increase the safety of the towing operation several times in a row. I thought that if you used a standard aerotow inconveniencer and experienced an inconvenience...

http://ozreport.com/9.033
Why weaklinks?
Davis Straub - 2005/02/08

Competition pilots are driven to use strong links because breaking a weaklink causes them to go to the back of the line as well as the problems that come with broken weaklinks low. If we want to use weaklinks, we need to be sure that we are not penalized if our weaklink breaks.
...you were rewarded with an empty cart, a police escort to the front of the line, the next available tug, and a gift certificate for a blow job from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney at a time and place of your choosing (excluding Federal holidays, must be redeemed within an eighteen month period following the date of issue, not transferrable, certain restrictions may apply in North Carolina, see http://www.aerosports.net for details).
Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her.
Oh, right. Karen flies at two hundred pounds and uses the same standard aerotow inconveniencer that you do. So she's never had the safety of one of her towing operations increased. Probably let you cut in front to give her more time to get her fear under control.
Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
Fuck all you goddam assholes and the horses you rode in on.
...and it would be a rowdy tow followed by a sledder. The tow was indeed quite rowdy. I pinned off at 2400' and started to work some very light lift. Then it started to get a bit better. I spent most of the time working a lift line to the north of the runway between 3-4K, topping out at 4331' for an hour and five minute flight. Not stellar-- but much better than I had expected.
And how did that compare to what you expected back at:
I got on the flight line at a little after 1 pm behind Sammi.
or:
I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'.
Karen also got up-- but in a completely different lift line to the south of the runway for 45 minutes and 4337'-- six feet higher than me!

A couple of others flew after us having sledders-- Travis and Vasil (sp).
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links
michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC

Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.

You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
Goddam fuckin' vegetables.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6180
East Coast Championship 2014
Felix Cantesanu - 2014/06/09 01:59:44 UTC

THANK YOU to all at Highland Aerosports! These guys deserve all the support we can show them.
Those pieces of shit deserve to be strung up by their balls. And I sure wouldn't mind seeing a bunch of their enablers alongside them.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37786
Joe on plowing
Joe Schmucker - 2014/06/12 12:51:42 UTC

Generally folks guess me to be about 230 or so. In that vid, I was 280. Add a 550 reserve from Betty, a harness and rocks in my head, I'm over 400 hook-in weight.
No you're not. You're over four hundred FLYING weight - IF THAT. Your glider weighs seventy and I doubt you're wearing fifty or more of gear.
I use a 200lb three strand weak link or they break every time.
OH?!?!?

- So you think you can just...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
...make shit up whenever you feel like, play by your own rules, cheat fellow competitors, display open contempt for the safety committee, use some...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
...nonstandard gear that could smash you into the earth on Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's watch, risk...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.

The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
...stalling the tug, act as and force your tuggie to be...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
...test pilots? All for the sake of your CONVENIENCE??

- Don't you realize that it might not break soon enough in a lockout...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC

Zapata has delivered as promised, day after day with howling winds and good lift, where flights of over 100 miles (and much more) are possible.

Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around.
...and pull Russell's tail around - REALLY HARD! - especially if you're flying with bent pin piece of Bobby shit within easy reach while you've got your right thumb thrust up your ass instead of wrapped around the basetube? Suck it up.

- Any plans for going to the 2014 Nationals at Big Spring?

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2014 Big Spring Nationals Rules
2014 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.
I got news for ya, dude. Triple strand two hundred will NEVER be a flavor of fishing line provided by and used in a manner approved by the meet heads. I think your best comp bet would be to keep rolling the cart back to the front of the line - which is your privilege and reward for using a really safe weak link and prevent as many other gliders as possible from getting airborne. Totally...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble
Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.
...doable strategy.

- What's gonna blow first? Your triple strand 200 weak link or...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC

The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.

See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 22:28:30 UTC

Just keep in mind if you do, you need to be weaker than the tug's link... not equal to. You will need to talk it over with any tug pilot that you tow behind. Anything less is unethical. And just as you have the right to refuse a tow from any tugger, they have the right to refuse to tow you... for any reason what so ever.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).
...the Dragonfly's triple strand 130 tow mast breakaway protector? What's your plan for dealing with the failure of a tow mast breakaway protector?

- Where does your triple strand 200 put you with respect to the legal range? Just kidding.

- Why don't other gliders up their weak links as well? Is it OK to keep flying a weak link...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely
Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'.
...that just blew under totally normal, under control tow conditions because it MIGHT NOT keep doing the same thing on the next flight? Is there some number of consecutive pops you need to justify moving up to something more dangerous? How many consecutive release failures do you think you should accept before trying to find something that actually works?

- How much actuation effort does it take to blow the tension allowed by the triple strand 200? Or, if you wanna comply with USHGA AT regulations, twice that?

- The late universally loved and highly respected Dragonfly pilot / aerotow instructor Mark Knight - upon completion of a weak link strength study conducted with his friend Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - recommended a breaking strength of 1.4 Gs. What's your feeling on that?
I am flying a Sport 2 175 which allows me to climb with the best of 'em (thanks WW for making a glider for the big boys!!).
And thanks, WW, for specifying that it always be flown with an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less and making sure that their dealerships always operate at the highest level of professionalism - going way above and beyond the standards and legal requirements of USHGA and the FAA.

The max certified operating weight for that glider is 390 pounds. The min legal weak link for that glider is 0.80 Gs / 312 pounds towline. The Rooney Link those Ridgely douchebags were putting you up on was 0.58 Gs / 226 towline / 0.29 percent of max legal. What the fuck did you assholes think you were doing putting the weak link that Karen Carra uses on a glider twice her flying weight?
Before this wing, I flew an Exxtacy 160 which was awesome for me, but it was too heavy to carry into high sites. Sarah made me sell it before I could get a new one. I wish I had it back now. :evil: If I can get to 240 (which I have done twice before) and stay there for three months, Sarah said she'll get a Brazilian. :D All kinds of incentives!
If you get down to 240, which puts in the range of a lot of other AT flyers, are you gonna drop down to the same standard aerotow inconveniencers they're using?

PLEASE stay at 280. You have no fuckin' clue just how much damage you've done to all these despicable Industry shits and the crap they've been spewing for decades with the amps cranked up to eleven.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37786
Joe on plowing

Hey Joe...

What total fucking idiot put you up on a triple strand of two hundred?

- How do you:
-- install it?
-- engage a release with it?

- What's the point in even having a weak link on your end once you've exceeded the crap on the tug end?

- Triple strands and double loops are shit that's come out of Flight Park Mafia culture 'cause the only units these douchebags are able to think in is strands of whatever fishing line they happen to have on hand.

- Why not just put a single loop of something to put you in some kind of ballpark somewhere?

- Or even why not just use a double loop of 130 like tandems do? You're almost certainly flying heavier than this:

13302
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/13626862385_ae79ba296a_o.png
Image

charming little tandem ride. (Make sure you check that your helmet's buckled on preflight. Just can't overstate how important that is.)

To hit the minimum USHGA/FAA legal figure for that glider you need to do 312 pounds towline.

If you hook in at over 150 kilograms / 331 pounds on that glider - which is certified for 320 - the BHPA max towline is 150 decaNewtons / 337. And there is no minimum. So if you wanna use the same weak link for both countries and stay legal you need to do it inside of a 25 pound window. That would be 325.5 pounds plus or minus four percent.

But in the UK if you use string instead of a Tost weak link it needs to be twenty percent safer. So if you shot for the top UK end you'd need to drop down to 270 pounds towline which would be 0.69 Gs which would be way illegally light in the US. Sure is a good thing Tost makes a 150, isn't it?

If you hook in BELOW 150 - which I'm pretty sure you're actually doing - the max UK legal is 125 decaNewtons / 276 pounds / 0.71 Gs - or, if you're doing string, 221 pounds / 0.57 Gs. And thus a weak link - Tost or string - that would be safe to fly in both countries is mathematically nonexistent (kinda like the square root of negative one). And 221 pounds is five shy of Rooney Link and you've already told us the - big surprise - that's not enough to get you off the fucking cart.

So just how much confidence do you think you should have in the douchebags running this sport? Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that the total US douchebags haven't said anything to the even totaller UK douchebags? Or that the even totaller UK douchebags aren't continuing to follow the US lead - which is how they got all their lunatic SOPs in the first place? Just plagiarizing whatever Hewett and Pagen felt like pulling outta their asses and putting into print?

Please don't lose more than about ten pounds. You are an INTERNATIONAL *TREASURE* - the worst case scenario I've been DREAMING ABOUT for YEARS. Do you have any idea how stupid you're making tens of thousands of aerotow assholes look?
Steve Davy
Posts: 1338
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Re: Weak links

Post by Steve Davy »

What's your plan for dealing with the failure of a tow mast breakaway protector?
Wouldn't that be the success of a tow mast breakaway protector?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I guess so. One thing that the industry that's been perfecting aerotowing for twenty years has gotten really good at is making stuff that breaks and kills the passengers at the back end of the string to ensure that they don't damage anything they've designed to be damaged at the front end of the string.

Certainly no shortage of fatality reports documenting these successes.
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Cc: Rohan Holtkamp ; Paris Williams

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on.
But when have any of Davis's comments on ANYTHING been anything *BUT* dead on?

Yet as dead on as Davis's comments were...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
...how come he really wasn't all that convinced of his dead onness until after all that discussion that came in the wake of one of you Questie assholes being lethally inconvenienced a short time after his Davis Link increased the safety of the towing operation?

And how come you were nowhere to be heard to help bolster his faith in the dead onness of his comments - 'specially when he himself was using new orange stuff Morningside decided they were happy with?
I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement.
Oh, aren't you just so superior to us weekend warrior muppets who ACTUALLY *ENGAGE* in discussions in efforts to get things on track while douchebags like you plant your useless goddam asses in front of screens and watch us in quiet amusement.
Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues...
What are the other hot buttton issues?
- bridles that connect to the pilot and glider being three point?
- short thick versus long thin bridles for wrap resistance?
- releases within easy reach versus ones that DON'T stink on ice?
- straight versus bent pin releases and the ability to engage thick rope without using a weak link?
- the best color line for hook knife lanyards?
- wheel landings being more dangerous than standups because you're leading with your head?
- angle of attack being synonymous for pitch attitude?
- hook-in checks versus just running off the ramp because you KNOW you're hooked in?
- whether or not:
-- a pro toad bridle pulls the pilot forward of the basetube and wipes out the top half of his available speed range?
-- using weak links on both ends of the bridle doubles max tow tension?
...that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots...
Can you give me some examples supporting this concept you have of hang glider pilots having inherent argumentative natures? Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney seems to think that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.
...our inherent argumentative natures tend to peak out during conversations about wheels? Has that been your experience as well?

Isn't it actually the case that one hundred percent of "arguments" occur between people who know what the fuck they're talking about trying to deal with assholes like Kinsley Sykes who've incorporated all the moronic crap you flight park dickheads have been feeding them for decades?

Are pilots from non hang gliding flavors of aviation noted for having inherent argumentative natures? If so, can you tell me some of the topics they argue about? Is the standard aerotow weak link on the list? Or does everybody just use what the glider manufacturer says and never have it blow?

Don't you think that if hang gliders used weak links comparable to what sailplanes use and thus never blew any that hang glider pilots wouldn't have such argumentative natures?
...and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality...
- Again... Which is WHAT? Are there big wars going on between pilots who fly gliders and harnesses from the US, Australia, UK, France, Germany, Ukraine?

- So tell me about some of the aerotow industry crap that was actually DESIGNED by anybody - 'stead of just bent pin junk Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey pulled out of his ass over two decades ago.

- Ever seen fistfights break out between Quallaby and Lockout releasers fanatically defending the engineering genius that went into their choices?
...and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate.
Guess you've seen what can happen to Industry dickheads who have.
Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel.
Yeah, how 'bout that. So why do you think that there's been virtually NO ink devoted to stuff like glider, harness, parachute design and so much ink devoted to weak link "design" that...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bill Cummings - 2014/06/05 20:44:19 UTC

Some moderators have even lock down threads about weak-links rather than go stark raving mad.
...some moderators have even locked down threads about weak links rather than go stark raving mad? Are there just too many loonies in this sport who can't be reasoned with well enough to get them on board with universal 130 pound Greenspot? If so can you give us some names so we can work on getting this settled once and for all?
Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.
Wow! That's a really long track record!!!
Yes I know some of these have been with strong links...
What's a strong link? Can you express that in Gs? Or at least pounds?
...but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
So what about THIS:

05-0903
Image

guy?

23-1817
Image
Image
30-1824

A bit of a stretch to think he's one of the best of the best aerotow pilots - 'specially when he needs to land right after a Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation. And yet...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37786
Joe on plowing
Joe Schmucker - 2014/06/12 12:51:42 UTC

I use a 200lb three strand weak link or they break every time.
...he uses a stronglink heavier than the one the tug uses to pull a tandem. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? Isn't that way out of specs with the wheel you've had spinning for well over a hundred thousand tows in the various US flight parks?

Does...
Joe Schmucker - 2014/06/12 12:51:42 UTC

In that vid, I was 280. Add a 550 reserve from Betty, a harness and rocks in my head, I'm over 400 (300) hook-in weight.
...just hooking in over three hundred pounds make one one of the best of the best aerotow pilots? If I hooked in at over three hundred pounds could I be one of the best of the best aerotow pilots? If so, would I hafta eat my way to the top or would it be OK to just ballast up?
You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more...
Oh, PLEASE have pity on that poor horse! He's just been beaten SO MUCH over the decades! Pretty much ceaselessly.
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot.
Oh? So the best of the best aerotow pilots are all flying stronger gear than weekend warrior muppets? Those topless jobs with two millimeter racing wires will hold up a lot better than stock Sport 2s? I'da thunk the precise opposite? Bo? You got any thoughts on this one?
Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Sounds to me like we've got a lot of people setting them selves up for disaster.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Sounds to me like even Steve...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
...Kroop is setting himself up for disaster. Any chance you could wire him and alert him to the danger he's probably in? Of course we can't worry about all those other people setting them selves up for disaster but... STEVE KROOP ferchrisake! We CERTAINLY couldn't afford to have anything bad happen to HIM!
The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves.
You mean like THIS?:

01-001
Image
04-200
Image
07-300
Image
10-307
Image
15-413
Image

Not entirely clear to me that this pilot activating his or her releases is doing that great of a job saving themselves. How 'bout you?

Any thoughts on looking into a more effective way for the pilot to...

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png
Image
Image
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

...activate his or her releases? No, wait...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is tired as hell of "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. He's been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

And, of course, it's not invented HERE.
A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this ;-).
But if you're one of the best of the best chargers it's OK to burn up your radio with a higher capacity circuit breaker? I'm not sure I'm following this perfect anology all that well.
A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal.
Hey Steve... Do you find that when there are arguments about weak links the sides tend to divide along the lines of those who spell "bridal" with an "a" and those who spell it with an "e"?
I hear (read) strengths quoted...
Yeah? So what STRENGTHS (plural) do you hear QUOTED?

- I've heard strengths QUOTED from around 130, which is what they ACTUALLY TEST TO, to 260, which is what they're declared to break at when all the factors and variability that exist in the big, real world are included.

- How come after a couple of decades of the spinning of this highly tuned wheel of yours one of your top enforcement goons...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.
...is still thinking about tying it to more trees and bouncing himself on it so's he can pull more convenient numbers out of his ass?
...with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system.
Isn't it traditional to place it between the second and third bridesmaids?
For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.
Do you have any photos showing us any of these various popular bridal configurations that don't have it at one end of a bridal engaged by a primary release such that it's either feeling half the towline tension one point or 65 percent for two? Asshole?
On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line.
Really? I thought...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly
USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.
...you used a double loop (four strands) on the tow plane.

Whassamattah? Did you fucking geniuses discover that when you used a weak link roughly equivalent to the force required to break the tow mast breakaway that the tow mast breakaway would break away at roughly the same percentage of times the weak link would break? (Who did you fucking geniuses have on that team who was smart enough to know how to spell BRIDLE? It sure as hell wasn't either you or Russell.)
The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#.
But what if we're at a flight park that uses a de jure, de facto, or actual value? What good is that gonna do us?
However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced.
What's it matter? You've already invented an optimized wheel. Twice in fact - first with four strands and later with three.
I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link...
Or have the slightest fucking clue as to approximate towline tensions required to break ANY of these highly tuned weak links in any part of your system. So obviously none of the fucking morons you douchebags train and certify have the slightest fucking clue either. And so it gets argued about for decades while you sit back on your stupid sleazy criminally negligent ass and watch all the argumentative pilots in quiet amusement without allowing yourself to be drawn into the debates while your proven system that works crashes, cripples, kills people left and right.
...but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane...
Fuck no. You've got the tow plane REALLY well protected by pre damaging one of the parts critical to the glider's safety and then dumbing down the original weak link to protect the pre damaged part from getting any more damaged.
...and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.
- Which glider pilot? The:
-- muppet with standard aerotow inconveniencer enforced by Davis and Rooney?
-- best of the best / 325 pound hook-in Sport 2 175 pilot who flies a three strand 200 stronglink
-- tandem pilot with a four strand 130 that your idiot clusterfuck of a system was supposed to be designed to handle?

- Is getting left with the towline the only concern here? Somewhere I got the impression that...

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1
USHGA - 2006/03/15

Safety Notice

HG Tandem Aerotow Operations

It was noticed over a number of years there have been a number of fatalities to participants in hang glider aerotow instruction. The president of the USHPA, therefore, formed an Ad Hoc Joint Committee of the chairs of Safety and Training, Tandem and Towing to investigate this, appointing the Chair of Safety and Training to preside. Tandem instructors Matt Taber and David Glover were invited to participate.

This committee reviewed a number of possible causes for aerotow tandem fatalities. One particular possible cause stood out as predominate. This was the common belief that when a glider gets low on tow the pilot can safely push out and let the glider climb up to the level of the tow plane safely because the glider will not stall under tow.

This issue is so important that this committee and the towing committee have recommended that the following message be sent to all aerotow pilots and all Aero-Tug pilots with a particular emphasis to aerotow tandem pilots.

Experiences in hang glider tandem flight using aero-tow launch along with analysis of accidents and incidents that have occurred during such flight strongly suggest, for safety reasons, the following cautions be observed.

If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 feet). The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

Towing tandems requires extra awareness on the part of the tug pilots, particularly in the early part of the tow to help the tandem pilot avoid the development of critical situations. Prior to the start of the tow, proper tow speeds based on the gross weight of the tandem glider should be determined. Greater total weight will require correspondingly higher tow speeds. It is CRITICAL to understand that the towed hang glider is at risk when the tow is slow and the glider is low. When towing a tandem glider, the tug pilot should fly the appropriate airspeed to keep the tandem glider in the proper position and if there is any doubt the tug pilot should fly slightly faster and avoid flying slightly slow. The tug pilot should avoid pulling up abruptly and leaving the tandem glider low. If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider, releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.

These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.

To insure that all AT rated tandem pilots are notified, we are asking that the AT-rated tandem pilots sign on to the USHPA web site (http://www.ushga.org) and fill out a form that states that they have read and understand the safety notice. If you are an AT-rated tandem pilot and do not have computer access (i.e. no email address) you will be sent the form to fill out and sign, and a USHPA addressed, stamped envelope. Understand that we are not asking if you agree with the safety notice, but that you have read it and understand what it says. You will need to do this in order to have your tandem rating renewed.

Flying with a tandem passenger is a special privilege which the FAA allows us to grant to qualified pilots. These pilots are supposed to be highly skilled. We expect tandem flights to be safer than solo flights, not more dangerous. Safety records do not currently seem to support this expectation. We expect tandem flights under the rules of the USHPA to be conducted in such a way that this expectation is realized.

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee
...should a tandem glider "become unattached" from the tug under certain circumstances which seem to occur at frighteningly high frequencies a very abrupt stall could result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 feet).

Would it really matter that much in such a situation which pilot was left with the towline?

Well...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 09:25:48 UTC

I'd suspect what you actually read was that I've got an itchy trigger finger. I don't know that I've passed out that many ropes really. I can probably think of all/most of the ones I've given.

It's a pain in the ass btw. If I drop my rope, I have to go get it... which means I'm not towing again for a while... and who knows where you're going to leave it.
So thankfully it's not too common.
It would be a real pain in the ass for the tuggie to recover his towline...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
...from all that mess. Best dumb the back end weak links a little more to protect the front end weak link which protects the pre damaged to mast from being damaged any more. We certainly wouldn't want a tuggie to suffer any unnecessary inconvenience.
Summary

Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
- From somebody like THIS?:

25-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
Image

- Do we also need to have proper equipment or can we fly with the totally useless cheap shit that Quest sells? No, wait...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1149
aerotow instruction was Re: Tug Rates
Tracy Tillman - 2011/02/10 20:08:32 UTC

Hey Tad.

Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
I guess we're OK with well-trained brains. And for just a few hundred bucks extra we can get one of those in the course of a couple tandem Cone of Safety instructional flights.

- Who the fuck do you know who's "attempting to aerotow" without having received "proper" Flight Park Mafia training?
Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions
Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tug's link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.
We can't have just any ol' douchebag fucking around behind a valuable Dragonfly on a comp class glider in comp class conditions with a thumb up his ass - specially flying one of those deadly Tad-O-Links that should be reserved for the best of the best.
Weak links are there to protect the equipment
OK. So...
Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition.
After well over a hundred thousand tows in the various US flight parks you found that if you went up from the single loop standard aerotow inconveniencer for solos and the double loop standard aerotow inconveniencer for tandems you started seeing equipment damage. So how much of this damage was severe enough to knock a plane out of the sky - and where can we go to read the reports?

And only the best of the best aerotow pilots - the four hundred pounders - are allowed to use stronglinks 'cause they're all good enough to keep their gliders under enough control to avoid breaking a plane. So if they DON'T keep things together their stronglinks are gonna break a plane. So what's the point of having ANY weak link? What's it matter if you break the plane with two Gs or six? If your parachute can't open in less than two hundred feet what's it matter if the cliff you're running unhooked off of is 80 feet or 180?
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
So rules like these:

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
...are strictly to prevent gliders certified to over six Gs from being broken up on tow. These inappropriate weak links Davis is protecting everybody from are capable of tearing the wings off the glider.
In the event of a lock out releases are there...
Where? Within...
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
...easy reach? Lemme ask ya sumpin', motherfucker... Do you read discussions like THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.

No stress because I was high.
...with the same quiet amusement you do when you read about people getting demolished and killed by Rooney Link pops?
...to save the pilot
Really? Davis's comments are dead on, weak links are there to protect the equipment and do NOT prevent lockouts, and in the event of a lockout releases are there to save the pilot but...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.
...Davis is gonna continue mandating weak link rules which put pretty much all gliders up on the most dangerous weak links conceivable to use as lockout protectors / instant hands free releases?
Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA
Suck my dick, Steve - Flytec USA. I've got a list of hang gliding people I'd bend over to stop from bleeding to death, it's REALLY SHORT, and YOU'RE NOT ON IT.

I think all these landmark bullshit posts, articles, books...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

HIGHER EDUCATION - 2012/06
TIE A (BETTER) WEAK LINK

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

...are all composed by the same ghostwriting asshole. They all say EXACTLY the same things:

- We decided that a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot put all solo gliders at precisely 1.0 Gs - which is a good rule of thumb for a lockout and stall preventer.

- The strength of this weak link in pounds is whatever the fuck we feel like saying it is at any given moment.

- If you:

-- want something stronger hide the knot better - you can get twice the consistency but the same lockout and stall protection 'cause it's still 130 pound Greenspot.

-- would rather use 200 and keep tying it so that breaks inconsistently you're a despicable asshole who's a threat to himself and has no regard whatsoever for the life of the tug pilot.

- If your own test results reveal something other than what we feel like saying at any given moment you can go fuck yourself..

- If you can't handle the instantaneous loss of a couple hundred pounds of thrust under any circumstances you:
-- had failed to keep the nose down low enough
-- didn't get enough tandem training
-- need to learn how to land
-- are a faggot who needs to find an alternate activity more compatible with his testosterone level - like checkers

- If one of OUR guys couldn't handle the instantaneous loss of a couple hundred pounds of thrust at the worst possible time, when he was climbing hard in a near stall situation:
-- no one will ever really know what happened
-- you weren't there so you couldn't possibly know what happened - the guys who were there don't even know what happened
-- stop speculating - it's disgusting
-- go fuck yourself

- What FAA aerotowing regulations?

- Anyone who's found dead on a runway with a broken Rooney Link after a lockout made no effort to make the easy reach to his release actuator.

- We're all in agreement about everything, we're never gonna admit to having been wrong about anything, if you don't like it then you can go to the flight park Tad runs. And, while you're there, ask him why he was banned from every aerotow operation on the continent.
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