instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6029
Highland sept 28-29

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/10/03 13:15:42 UTC

Yeah, that tow sure was interesting to say the least.

I remember thinking "I probably need to release NOW" when I saw Jim waaay down there, however with the rope being slack and not sure I could release...

NOT SURE YOU COULD RELEASE?!?! With your glider level and under control with zilch line tension using aerotow equipment...

05-215

07-300

08-301

11-311

15-413


...that Quest has been perfecting for twenty years?! Did you ever think what could happen if you were that high on the tug during takeoff? Shouldn't you be looking into equipment that would increase the safety of the towing operation for BOTH of you - even if you ARE using a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot to keep the tug safe if you're a solo or a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot to keep the tug safe if you're a tandem?

Hey Zack...

01-1225
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7436/13700570583_049b5b7ded_o.png

02-1302
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7117/13700891354_b31d51ed74_o.png

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


When was the last time you went up behind a tug with anything less than total confidence in your ability to blow tow immediately in the course of ANY difficult or emergency situation?

So Felix...

- Were you unsure of your ability to release in that situation because you're a clueless weekend warrior muppet...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

...like Jim says or because you're using the total crap that Jim sold you as release equipment?

- Do you expect in the future to be in the same situation with the same equipment and - because of the greater experience you've gained - more confidence in your ability to release?

- How come there's no response from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and/or any of the other fine professional staffers at Ridgely about this serious concern of yours? How come they haven't suggested that you attend one of their free monthly emergency release clinics to help you with your problem?

- Have they suggested that you use one of the releases they provide which would...

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04

On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

...comply with the BHPA equipment regulation for tandem towing and, above and beyond that regulation, actually...

Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.

...WORK when you needed it to?

I tried to fix it and it worked...

Zack Marzec was in a very similar situation he was trying to fix and...



...it didn't work - and nobody seems to be able to understand why. Any thoughts on the differences between your situations and the reasons for the vastly differing outcomes?

I pulled in all the way...

What? Two or three more inches than you were...

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png


...already pulled in just to stay level with the tug before it hit the thermal?

...and tried to stay right behind him while keeping enough slack in the rope so I don't pull his tail up (there was no tension on the rope, it was well curved...

Like your barrel release pin.

...and so his tail never got pulled upwards), when he finally started climbing I did my best to maintain a somewhat slack line and get behind him so I don't suffer a shock when the line got tensioned again - it all worked out great, no weak link break, no nothing.

Yeah, ain't it great when your 130 pound test Pilot In Command doesn't interfere with YOUR flight plan.

Jim said it was interesting but no problems at all.

He was just being modest. A lesser individual would've been toast in a situation like that.

He's an awesome tug pilot.

He must be. Everybody's always saying so. 'Specially Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - and it's his opinions to which we should give credence above all others. How very sad it is that there aren't any...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

Jim Rooney - 2007/12/13 18:07:02 UTC

Wow, so this is what I get when I try to be civil?
Oh well, very nice. Enjoy being pissed. I don't care.

As they often say here on the internet....
Pics or it didn't happen.

I did "bother" to look at your pics. They're cryptic at best. How would I know they were component shots otherwise? Wasting pixels? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Riiiiight. Pics or it didn't happen pal.

...videos documenting this undisputed awesomeness.

We've been in dicey situations before and managed to fix it without problems.

- Doesn't the glider driver - since his:
-- plane is:
--- the one relying on thrust:
---- supplied by another plane 250 feet away
---- being transmitted through a length of chintzy fishing line determined/mandated/limited by the other plane
---- which can become lethally misaligned to the point of no return in a heartbeat
--- weight shift controlled such that he has shit control authority in comparison to the other plane
--- equipped with whatever known lethal garbage the asshole on the other plane sells and mandates
--- being towed through its control system and is thus roll unstable as hell
-- flight path / climb rate is determined by the other plane
-- life can get easily ended if the towline comes down attached to the front end of his plane rather than the back end of the other plane
damn fucking near always need to be a much more awesome pilot than the tug driver to get through dicey situations?

- How come we NEVER hear about any awesome back end pilots? Everybody and his fuckin' dog knows - or SHOULD - that tugs are NEVER getting crashed as consequences of anything the glider's are - or aren't - doing. Not so AT ALL with respect to the converse.

- Why don't you tell us all about the tug pilots who've pulled you who totally sucked by comparison and what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was able to do that they either didn't or did backwards. Give us their names so's we can avoid them like the plague. Keavy Nenninger - OBVIOUSLY - but she was a self correcting problem. (Sunny and Adam concur with Rooney's assessment on that one, right? They told you she sucked bigtime and really had no business flying Dragonflies - on or off tow - right?)

How many tug drivers have you flown behind under...

Rattiest tow for me yet...

...the same conditions and at how many different places?

Lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfucker...

The guy on the back end needs to have his shit together ten times better than the guy on the front end. But even then there's not a thimble's worth of piss difference between a solid Hang 2.5 with a couple dozen tows under his belt and a Hang 5.5 with a couple thousand tows under his belt.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

The glider's roll unstable, there are pretty narrow limits to what anybody can do with it or make it do on tow, and NONE OF IT requires any more skill or experience than what's needed to go up, down, left, right to stay pointed at the fuckin' tug.

And a thermal blast on one wing can instantly point you in a direction different from the one the tug's heading...

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

...and it don't give a flying fuck what your rating is and/or how highly regarded you are by your peers.

You're flying pro toad:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5547/14232473234_a6dd492c81_o.png


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uJAnDElLEb8/UZ4AJarLwBI/AAAAAAAAGxk/S8p8DyKbcFg/s1024/GOPR1194.JPG

Do you really think that you can remove the upper bridle attachment point...

02-02714
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7208/13921309300_ba727d0037_o.png


...and have some asshole...

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air.

...teach you how to fly just as safely as you could with it?

08-04111
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/14055231448_03920a1733_o.png


Ever see a truly awesome tug pilot like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney flying his Dragonfly...

http://www.zenadsl2877.zen.co.uk/mf-aerotow/8-GermanDF-AWier.jpg


...pro toad? Ever wonder why not?

Ever hear any tug drivers say:

I remember thinking "I probably need to release NOW" when I saw Felix waaay up there, however with the rope being slack and not sure I could release...

Ever see any tug drivers going up with slapped on crap for a release...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg


...within easy reach? Ever wonder why not?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6029
Highland sept 28-29

Mark Cavanaugh - 2013/09/30 04:00:33 UTC

Luckily for us, towmaster-extraordinaire Jim Rooney was flying the tug, and he really made a huge difference today, lemme tell ya!

Cragin Shelton - 2013/09/30 10:46:44 UTC

Thanks to Jim Rooney for most skillful tug management, avoiding either one of us releasing the rope at the middle of the field.

Roger Irby - 2013/10/02 11:44:37 UTC

How you and Jim managed to not break the weak link from that position is amazing.

Danny Brotto - 2013/10/02 22:09:10 UTC

How Jim managed to maintain control of the tug is what is amazing.

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/10/03 13:15:42 UTC

Jim said it was interesting but no problems at all. He's an awesome tug pilot.

Maybe if a few more of you Washington/Baltimore area douchebags would tell Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney what an incredible example of human evolution he is...

Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:20:56 UTC

Wow. The irony. The arrogance. And people call Tad arrogant...I can see why you have so much contempt for this guy, Tad.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professional" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

...he'd be able to get his head thrust up his ass another three or four inches.

Such a pity that he's never shared any of the secrets of his awesomeness with anybody. Just one more Dragonfly control system failure or unhooked foot launch and the world would forever be a much poorer place.

He's never been the least bit shy about revealing all the secrets of landing hang gliders, explaining to us why a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot is the ideal aerotow weak link for all solo gliders, revealing the superiority of the bent pin barrel release which can be easily closed over thick rope without using a weak link, warning us that unhooked launches are pretty much inevitable unless our friends happen to notice our dangling carabiners...

Yet all we've really got from him on what it takes to be a truly awesome tug pilot is:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

And we all knew that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Danny Brotto - 2008/11/04 12:49:44 UTC

I came out of the cart rolled and yawed to the right with the upwind wing flying and the downwind wing stalled. It was rather dramatic. If I had released or if the weak link had broken, the downwind wing would have further stalled and I would have cartwheeled into terra firma in an unpleasant fashion. I held on tight gaining airspeed until the downwind wing began flying, got in behind the tug, and continued the flight.

Sunny later told be he was about to give me the rope and I thanked him to no end that he didn't.

...already. Hell, it's in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover. I leveled out and landed.

Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. The normal procedure for a tow pilot, when the hang glider gets too high, is to release in order to avoid the forces from the glider pulling the tug nose-down into a dangerous dive. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.

...and Bill Bryden:

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Isn't it something of a waste for such a gifted individual to just be pulling you twats up behind him day in and day out? How come he's not writing a training manual on how to be an awesome tug pilot such as himself and avoid the rookie mistakes which killed Keavy Nenninger and Mark Knight?

Seems to me that Dr. Trisa Tilletti...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?

michael170 - 2012/06/06 03:14:26 UTC

Did anyone here bother to read Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman's thirteen page idiotic article in the June issue of USHPA's worthless magazine?

NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC

You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are.
Pardon me while I puke.

...should be a pretty awesome tug pilot too. How come there's never been a Higher Education article in the magazine helping others to become awesome tug pilots and the virtues of fixing whatever's going on back there by giving people the rope?

Failing that...

Surely you guys who - collectively - must have racked up hundreds of hours of intense scrutiny of his awesomeness from 250 feet behind him should have gained some insight to it and describe SOMETHING to aid less awesome tug pilots in becoming more awesome tug pilots?

Here's my take...

An awesome tug pilot:

- has a totally solid understanding of THEORY

- either complies with existing FAA and USHGA regulations and SOPs or explains why they suck and breaks his ass to get them revised

- doesn't:

-- tow people:

--- without launch dollies

--- on shit equipment with long track records which include thousands of failures and several fatalities

--- he believes to be incompetent muppets who can't be relied upon to blow themselves off tow in emergency situations that call for it because they're equipped with standard aerotow weak links which MIGHT make good lockout protectors

- EVER override the decision of the glider's Pilot In Command to stay on tow unless his own plane is being endangered

- climbs steadily and smoothly to release altitude in normal circumstances

- adjusts power and/or position to stay in front of gliders having difficulties

- does his best to drop the glider off in a thermal

- immediately knows why somebody got killed behind a tug the instant reasonably good information on the circumstances is provided

Anybody got anything:
- I've missed or got wrong?
- that requires or benefits from anything beyond basic flying skill and judgment?

If not then please shut the fuck up about what an awesome tug pilot Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is. He most assuredly IS NOT. He's a stupid, incompetent, dangerous douchebag and you worship him because YOU'RE all stupid, incompetent, dangerous douchebags and he tells you EXACTLY what you wanna hear...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.

...EXACTLY the way he did with his landing bullshit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Well yeah. Of course. But that's not necessarily a BAD thing. A degree from Harvard Medical School is, in fact, very serious and has lifelong effects. You never stop feeling the effects and your wiring's really changed.

My wiring's been really changed as a consequence of my decades of involvement in and with hang gliding. Just about all of the people I trusted and respected because I assumed, believed, wanted to believe that they had their shit really together and were advancing or trying to advance the sport I now thoroughly despise. I was pretty slow fully realizing what a total piece o' shit you are - for example.

Zack C...

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

...has been similarly rewired inside of a MUCH SHORTER timeframe.

So the concussions you got in ninth grade football and wherever...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...else probably IMPROVED your wiring. You're not saying they did but that's probably just modesty. They obviously didn't have the effect that we see when NFL players are turned into incoherent vegetables. So it's a pretty safe bet that you're better than just about any of us weekend warrior muppets and we're all good with you setting policy for and enforcing it on us.

If I spent a little time in a boxing ring with some big guy a third my age do you think there's any chance I could be edged up a bit towards your level?

[Tad Eareckson]

And the other scenario is that your numerous concussions in fact DID mush your brain a good bit down towards the incoherent vegetable end of the spectrum - just like they do for everyone else, that the person you are today isn't ENTIRELY a consequence of being put together from the dregs of the gene pool.

That WOULD explain the prominence you've achieved in a sport which rabidly despises triple digit IQs - especially when coupled with enough integrity to stand by positions based on them.

And I'm totally serious about that. The lower one's IQ and the more bankrupt one's principles the more welcome he's gonna be and the better he's gonna get along.

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

But it doesn't matter. If you tell 51 percent of the people the crap they wanna hear and get away with it 51 percent of the time you're set for life.

If you tell everybody that the purpose of the weak link...

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

...is to protect your aircraft against overloading and that Davis Links are a hair's breath shy of totally useless as lockout protectors and absolutely deadly as stall inducers you're gonna get through one hundred percent of the time to one percent of your audience and be permanently fucked.

And you're gonna be MOST fucked when some pro toad asshole like Zack Marzec proves the point beyond a molecule's worth of doubt.

But, nevertheless Davis, I've never for a nanosecond envied you for the crap you have packing your skull and the resultant social status you enjoy.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31330
I wish that Fag Noman would chime in

Cool Breeze - 2014/05/31 21:56:04 UTC
Planet Earth

I wish that Fag Noman would chime in
Dude was cool

That Fag Noman was, is, always will be a fuckin' idiot.

Ken de Russy - 2014/05/31 23:37:08 UTC
Anacortes, Washington

I think it is time for you to realize that the world has moved on, grown up, and thought better of the use of such mean spirited and thoughtless descriptive epithets. Make this the day you decide you will no longer see more amusement than cruelty in this discredited term. Or choose to remain in an ever shrinking part of the population that fails to see the hurt that results from its use.

Might as well. The assholes of the mindset you describe have chosen to remain in an ever shrinking part of the aviation population that is hang gliding. And, big surprise...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30199
Incident - 2013/06/16

Paul Hurless - 2014/05/11 03:19:34 UTC

I think I have figured out why you are so antagonistic towards people and always gleefully trying to point out faults even when they don't exist, things like "whipstalls" when someone mentions a landing problem.
It must be self-loathing because of your realization that you will never have the close, "personal" relationship with your man crush, Tad. You're far too old. You lack those pre-pubescent qualities that he finds so desirable. Why else would you spend so much time attempting to emulate his disdain and hatred towards every hang glider pilot. Good luck with that.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12356
dont be a fag

...they're the REASON hang gliding is ever shrinking.

The sport's a total dickhead magnet and that's the demographic, big surprise, that dominates and controls it. Fortunately though, the sport's also dangerous as hell and Darwin tends not to be very kind to total dickheads in dangerous environments.

But, Jack Show pin bending assholes, in the unlikely event that your assholiness ever starts being viewed as unacceptable in that shit heap, I have every confidence that you'll always be more than welcome on the Davis and Bob Shows. Pretty good prospects in Grebloville as well.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31330
I wish that Fag Noman would chime in

2014/06/01 13:30:00 UTC - vanished by.

Didn't go to The Basement to keep company with Brian's vile little:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12356
dont be a fag

thread - currently festering four up from the bottom of Page 8 with 5587 hits. Just Phhhttt...

Reason... High profile respected hang gliding figure stood up on the side of decency against Jack's version of "a friendly and positive, approachable community for people interested in the sport of HG".

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31330
I wish that Fag Noman would chime in

miguel - 2014/06/01 01:31:08 UTC

BS aside, y'all needs to come back.
Jay did, y'alls can too.
noman, and the rest.

That the best you could do / felt like doing / thought that one merited, miguel?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37986
Safety in Annecy?

Davis Straub - 2014/06/25 18:25:24 UTC

Mike Meier wonders about the focus (Annecy, France)

From the Oz Report - 2014/06/25 - The 2014 Worlds - Day ONE (originally from Corinna's blog):

Mike Meier from Wills Wing writes:

It was very difficult and intimidating at times to fly around the course, because we had to cross the lake of Annecy twice very low. I barely got up to 1500m today, which is about 1000m above the goal. With not many safe landing options on course and a significant northerly wind hitting the valley, it was a fight to do this short sounding task.

I was lucky to get a really nice landing, while two other guys got badly injured. Luckily Doc Arnold Nadlinger had also landed in that field and looked after those guys immediately (broken pelvis and femur, the other one had an open arm fracture). When I arrived, the ambulance was already there, taking the guys to hospital. Alain, a very friendly guy of the organization team, helped me after the landing, as the wind was howling through with up to 30km/h.

From the December 18th 2007 CIVL Pitch Testing Sub-Committee report, describing "typical" competition conditions:

...the varied conditions of competition - sometimes strong winds, crossing long distances with few landing fields, operations where thunderstorm or cloud suck avoidance may be imperative, crowded thermals where handling is a premium...

Has it occurred to anyone in CIVL over the last seven years that perhaps micromanaging, within a fraction of one degree, competition pilots' decisions about where to set their sprogs may not be the most effective thing they could be doing to improve competition safety?

The point being, I guess, that it seems that whether we're talking about Valle de Bravo or the valleys of Europe, the biggest dangers to competition pilots seem to be coming from decisions made by competition directors about sites, tasks, and weather, and not about any documented problems with glider stability. And yet, it seems that measuring sprogs is about the only thing that CIVL has put any time or effort into.

The serious landing accidents have been described by the organizers:

A British Atos pilot and a French Sport pilot. They landed behind big trees with a quite strong wind, so it was dodgy conditions.

Davis Straub - 2014/06/25 18:25:24 UTC

Mike Meier wonders about the focus (Annecy, France)

Really? I stopped wondering about the focus when I got one of those little red rubber wristbands from USHGA. One of the best ideas they've ever had!

With not many safe landing options on course...

Yeah Mike?

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

Tell me about safe landing options for hang gliders under the best of circumstances.

I was lucky to get a really nice landing...

The way you tell people to land in your owners' manuals - EVERYBODY is, ALL the time.

...while two other guys got badly injured. Luckily Doc Arnold Nadlinger had also landed in that field and looked after those guys immediately (broken pelvis and femur...

Good thing he was upright! Imagine what could've happened to him if he'd used his FRONT end as a crumple zone!

...the other one had an open arm fracture).

No shit. Lemme guess...

Has it occurred to anyone in CIVL over the last seven years that perhaps micromanaging, within a fraction of one degree, competition pilots' decisions about where to set their sprogs may not be the most effective thing they could be doing to improve competition safety?

How 'bout the fuckin' bullshit you've been letting Davis Dead-On Straub, Dr. Trisa Tilletti, and their sleazy ilk get away with for decades in which EVERYONE - student, recreational, comp - is FORCED to fly precision fishing line...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

One source states that their Dacron braided line is IGFA approved, and they publish a chart of the actual tested breaking strengths for their various lines. They state that their 130 lb. line breaks within one pound of 130, which is 5 to 10 times more precise than a metal TOST weak link.

...with a plus or minus tolerance of under 0.8 percent on gliders with plus or minus tolerances of over 40.5 percent?

Oh, right. You've told us all to...

http://www.willswing.com/articles/ArticleList.asp#AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...always use appropriate weak links with finished lengths of 1.5 inches or less so your ass is off the hook on that one.

The point being, I guess, that it seems that whether we're talking about Valle de Bravo or the valleys of Europe, the biggest dangers to competition pilots seem to be coming from decisions made by competition directors about sites, tasks, and weather, and not about any documented problems with glider stability.

How 'bout the ECC (You've heard about it, right? You have it on your website and the host is one of your schools/dealerships.) twenty-four days ago when a Hang 4 competitor (trained and qualified by another one your schools/dealerships) locked out on one of your Talon 160s coming off the cart in a fifteen plus ninety cross and - having no ability whatsoever to abort the tow with the cheap bent pin shit and chintzy fishing line your guy sold him - partially broke his freakin' neck.

I bring it up because:
- this was a competition pilot
- the crash was entirely a consequence of:
-- the training and equipment your guy (Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt - (Heard of him?)) sold him
-- decisions made by competition directors about sites, tasks, and weather
-- a very well documented and many times lethal problem with towed glider stability

And yet, it seems that measuring sprogs is about the only thing that CIVL has put any time or effort into.

As 130 pound test fishing line is about the only thing that your flatland schools/dealerships have put any time or effort into. And one hundred percent of that effort has been in:

- forcing everybody to use it - predominantly in blatant violation of FAA aerotowing regulations

- telling everybody that:

-- it's OK 'cause they know what they're doing and talking about 'cause they've been doing and talking about it for a very long time, even before they'd arrived in many cases

-- whenever anybody they:

--- don't like gets slammed in and killed because of it the reason was because he was a clueless muppet with no flying ability

--- do like gets slammed in and killed because of it the reason was an absolute mystery, one nobody who knows what's good for him should try to solve

The serious landing accidents have been described by the organizers:

A British Atos pilot and a French Sport pilot. They landed behind big trees with a quite strong wind, so it was dodgy conditions.

And, strangely, nobody mentioned a rotor.

Mike Meier - 2005/09/14 16:23:46 UTC

RE: great minds...

Hi Tad,

I generally try to avoid getting involved in internet forum based arguments and list discussions - in my experience they tend to be not productive of much that is positive.

And yet when it's YOUR ox that's getting gored on what platform do your comments get aired? Hang Gliding magazine?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37986
Safety in Annecy?

Raymond Caux - 2014/06/26 08:44:30 UTC

The problem with information is who gives it, from what sources, with which sensitivity and which technical level... Now it seems that CIVL have been losing their time with sprogs instead of choosing reasonable meet directors and staff, very nice for all those obviously irresponsible people.

Safety is our main concern as in every meet...

Especially when it's a tow meet where...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

When we look at safety we have to look at the whole system, not just one component of that system. One pilot may feel that one component is unsafe from his point of view and desire a different approach, but accommodating one pilot can reduce the overall safety of the system.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

...brain dead pigfuckers reign supreme as the law of the land.

...the issues like the number of landing options along the legs are discussed at the briefing. In this particular first task, a combination of wind and breeze made the overall wind slightly higher than expected at the last turnpoint, from which paragliders usually come back easily. Several pilots were forced to land in a big field with a tree lane upwind. Those who landed in the beginning of the field were tossed but could manage it, the two accidents happened to pilots that landed in the middle of the field, just in the lee. The English pilot has a fractured pelvis ridge around the femur top, the French one has a simple fracture of humerus just above the elbow.

Big surprise.

Speaking about luck. Unless in a world cup, the technical levels are more mixed in a world championship, not always with a clear link between competitive and technical level, be it for launch or landing. The French pilot recognised he had made a mistake in his approach. Many pilots jump in their glider upon launch...

- Which, in the vast majority of cases, is the first time their suspension has gone tight since leaving the staging area.
- Not if they're dolly launching.

...or hold the top of their downtubes upon landing...

What? They can't do both?

...when horizontal forearms give all the needed control range.

BULL FUCKING...

http://ozreport.com/8.133
The European Championships at Millau

Gerolf Heinrichs - 2004/06/24

Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.

...SHIT. Fly the goddam gliders the way they're designed to be flown - 'specially at the times it most matters. Both of those assholes crashed and were seriously injured because they were upright - a fraction of the control authority to prevent crashing and a fraction of the survivability in the crashes they caused in the first place.

The staff has enough with setting tasks as safe as possible (second task cancelled for all footlaunching gliders) and ensure everything goes smoothly, without fixing the pilots' technique...

If you're seeing patterns of incompetence in certified pilots then sanction the countries qualifying them. Or just open the comps up to anyone who shows up with a glider. If the ratings don't mean anything anyway then what's the point in requiring them?

...or struggling with approximative and negative information inputs.

We are all experienced pilots (who each got their own series of accidents) and we do our best to show hang gliding under its best aspect.

Which sure ain't sayin' much, dude.

Try doing what I do for a change. Do your best to show hang gliding under its absolute WORST aspects. You'll start getting better results IMMEDIATELY - at least on SOME scale. You keep showing stupid bullshit like:

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967


you're gonna get a whole lot more stupid bullshit like:

Our main goal is to keep all pilots happy for the final ceremony, this will be our only success.

Well then make sure you keep pigfuckers like...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

...Davis Dead-On Straub and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney in charge of things.

We need support and constructive criticism as most of the pilots give us, not knives in the back.

- Support to do what? Tell ya you're doing everything right? If your doing everything right then what's support going to do to make anything any better?

- What's the difference between CONstructive and DEstructive criticism? If the criticism is valid you've had something identified which can get fixed.

- Sounds to me like Mike gave you a knife in the front. Too bad he won't do that for situations in which his own ass isn't on the line - like when Tom Galvins are teaching students to never do hook-in checks because they give false senses of security.

Fly safe, Raymond Caux
CIVL Safety Officer
Annecy Worlds Safety Director

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37986
Safety in Annecy?

Kinsley Sykes - 2014/06/26 13:08:27 UTC

I think the point was far more about the extraordinary effort over the last several year put into measuring sprogs, which I think is a bit questionable in terms of it's impact on safety vs the basic task planning and weather forecasting which has a huge impact.

But forcing everybody to fly on bent pin pro toad bridles and 130 pound test fishing line as your pretense and ONLY pretense of safety at tow meets isn't?

Two pretty severe injuries in one day seems high.

How 'bout the ECC? In the course of four day span:
- broken humerus
- power slam which knocked the glider and its "pilot" out of the competition
- lockout resulting in bent neck
- landing crash resulting in badly broken neck plus scapula and rib

How's that sound?

How's that sound coming from an airport / wide open coastal plain environment with, I'm guessing, a fraction of the numbers of competitors?

Alpine flying has more potential challenges from weather and conditions due to mechanical turbulence and pilots need to understand that and fly accordingly.

See above.

But the task and safety committee need to have that same understanding.

Yep. Like the ECC safety committee. Shortly after they saw one of the competitors lock out and come reasonably close to getting quaded the Safety Committee worked tirelessly to arrive at a the difficult decision they should to call the task.

I'm not there, so I'm not criticizing the meet organizers or committees...

Right. Unless you're actually "THERE"...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

...you can't possibly reach any solid conclusions about a situation. But since Raymond was standing in the middle of the field watching both crashes from within fifteen yards of impact we'll just go with his take. Lucky us.

...just agreeing with Mike that if we want things safer, spending years measuring sprig angles might not have the most impact.

Of course not. IF "WE" want things safer...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...we should spend years focusing carefully on the folk who tow a lot telling us they know what they're doing...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know. I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position, particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

Asshole.

Davis Straub - 2014/06/26 15:17:09 UTC

Knives in the back?
I never realized that the French were so sensitive.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC

Why did you delete my post?

Davis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02 UTC

Tad's name.

Go figure.

[Tad Eareckson]

Mike Meier - 2005/09/14 16:23:46

RE: great minds...

Hi Tad,

I generally try to avoid getting involved in internet forum based arguments and list discussions - in my experience they tend to be not productive of much that is positive.

C'mon Mike, you're being MUCH too modest. You have not getting involved in internet forum based arguments and list discussions totally fuckin' MASTERED. As far as I've been able to tell Davis's posting of your sentiments about the Worlds on his nasty perpetually useless rag is the only item that's ever appeared that's come reasonably close to being an example.

Which begs the question... So just what IS your experience?

About the last time I can recall you getting involved in anything of substance was 1980/03, a bit over a month before I first hooked into a glider, when you blasted Donnell for his lunatic attack on glider airworthiness standards - which is about the only decent thing this terminally fucked up sport has ever had going for it.

But then you more than totally queered that deal when you sent pigfucker Jerry Forburger to savage one of the victims of that little issue you had of your nose wires falling off in flight.

Anything of yours I've missed in the magazine within the past fifteen years or so? No, wait, I forgot. It's just been a big monthly color glossy glider manufacturers' advertising brochure for the span of that period. Forget I mentioned it.

So what positive stuff do you think SHOULD be coming out of glider culture that isn't happening in this crappy web environment? Nothing, I'm guessing. Everything must've been as good as it could possibly get for decades or you'd have definitely made your positions known somewhere.

But, gee... If everything is so fucking perfect then why is anybody arguing about anything anywhere? Possibilities:
- The factions arguing just don't understand that everything's perfect.
- Everything's not perfect, people know it, and different factions are arguing:
-- but no one's right (hang checkers, Aussie Methodists)
-- and one faction is right and all others are wrong (hook-in checkers, hang checkers, Aussie Methodists)

Either way, you're to fucking holy to weigh in and put something on the line - ANYWHERE?

Done the math and figured that it's probably more advantageous for the business model to continue killing people at fairly low rates than alienating the fuckin' idiots who form your customer base at very high rates?

You just don't like it when it's YOUR ass on the line and other people's decisions are having bearings on its safety.

By the way, Mike...

Raymond at least did you the courtesy of responding to your concerns and nobody's threatened to cut your microphone for standing up for your position. So have you just walked away from the discussion because in your experience they tend to be not productive of much that is positive? If you have that's a real good indication as to which horse I should be backing.