instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[spark]

It's being handed to you on a silver platter. Have you bothered to even look at it?

thank you. and yes, I have looked at it, but not touched it.

[Steve Davy]

It's being handed to you on a silver platter. Have you bothered to even look at it?

thank you. and yes, I have looked at it, but not touched it.

[Tad Eareckson]

You're welcome. Thanks for reading and posting.

Get one. Touch it. Install it on your glider where you'll be constantly touching it up through the point at which you really NEED to be touching it. Help Joe get them into circulation to the point at which the idiot masses start realizing what dangerous pieces of crap they're being sold at Rigdely, Manquin, Kitty Hawk, Lockout, Quest, Wallaby...

This one:



very probably owes her life to one of those.

Sorry to hear about your physical/health problems.

P.S. If you see Rooney DO tell him to go fuck himself for me.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31499
Experimentation ( trying Suprone )

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/04 15:31:55 UTC

Suprone HG ScooterTow Lockout Situation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYBNyVAfAU4
Allen Sparks - 2014/07/04
dead

2014/07/04 16:42:34 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brian Scharp

Lock out on a Falcon in glassy smooth air mildly blowing straight in down the runway with zero ability to release and a Rooney Link that doesn't work when it's supposed to, have your ass saved by a winch driver who happily pulled you up on that crap and...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...GRADUALLY reduced the power...
- AWESOME, Spark!
- Way to go!
- You rock, dude!
- Righteous stuff!

Spend years developing equipment and procedures to prevent and protect against lockouts and stalls and try to give everything away to anyone interested and...
- Sink This!
- Grow a pair.
- Shut the fuk up.
- Try checkers.
- Faggot.

Brian Scharp - 2014/07/04 16:26:59 UTC

That's cool, except for the lockout of course.

Jonathan's last drag chute approach was cool, except for the tiny little landing bit at the end of course.

Was it just being slow to initiate correction on your part, or do you feel less roll control?

It was too much tow pressure combined with a Tad-O-Link and a belief that he could fix a bad thing and not have to start over.

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/04 16:34:59 UTC

I think I have sufficient (~ equal to prone) roll control ... when I have sufficient airspeed. I allowed the glider to get close to stall when I pushed out and pulled my feet under the BT, which was a very bad move.

Big fuckin' deal. Since when did stalls get to be a problem in hang gliding?

My muscle memory for new bar position, hand position (needs to be lower), etc will take time to develop.

As much time as it took Zack Marzec to develop the muscle memory he needed to get the nose down below normal tow angle of attack when getting blasted by a monster thermal?

Mike Badley - 2014/07/04 17:02:42 UTC
Sacramento

Spark,

First off - KUDOS!!!! to the tow operator for realizing quickly that you were headed for trouble and dumped the tow pressure right away.

- Yeah... SUPERB judgment, LIGHTNING reflexes, really on the ball!

- Told ya it was "pressure".

- The same tow operator who happily towed him up with total crap for a "release"?

- HE DIDN'T *DUMP* THE "PRESSURE" - ASSHOLE. He eased off on it. DUMPING it would've had the best potential for killing him just as dead as Mike Haas ended up.

Give him/her a high five from me.

- Give Mark Windsheimer a high one from me.

- How com he/she isn't here on this shitty little rag of yours discussing the incident? How come all these instructors and tow operators always seem to have more important things to do?

(Maybe you realized that they did this and that's why you did not pin off that tow)

- You THINK Spark sensed that the tension was being eased off?

- Maybe he realized that that far into the shit and with the tension being eased off it would've been totally moronic to pin off.

- Show me some videos of assholes with releases within easy reach...

05-215

07-300

08-301

09-304

11-311

15-413


...pinning off early enough and with enough control to make it worthwhile.

Second - do you think it would help if somebody held your keel a bit as the tension in the line increased?

The WHAT? I thought it was pressure.

I have always felt that having a bit more energy before separating from the ground helps to avoid the 'slow speed' climb which can result in that tip-stall problem that it looked like you were having.

BULLSHIT.

Peter Birren

These are Donnell Hewett's original 12 elements of a good tow system. They are as viable today as they were in the early 80's when he wrote them.

05: Gradual Transitions

The transition to and from tow, as well as any variations while on tow, must be gradual in nature.

We're not going back to the bad old days when...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Pop starts are dangerous as hell.

I'm not talking about a 'sling-shot'...

Of course you're not.

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


Ever since 1981 you've needed to make the disclaimer that a slingshot launch isn't really a slingshot launch.

...but just enough to help the winch overcome the loss of line tension resulting from inertia crest of the motionless glider that is now 'rolling'.

Right. Just enough for a slingshot launch.

I've never seen a supine tow before - interesting.

Is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfPSFDSLE-k


close enough and high enough to count?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31499
Experimentation ( trying Suprone )

Mike Badley - 2014/07/04 17:09:04 UTC

Another note about the supine harness...

Looks like a converted PG harness??
It also looks a bit like you are going to have a problem flaring with authority.

Does it look like he's in an environment in which flaring with authority wouldn't be at least twenty times as dangerous as NOT flaring with authority?

I've noted in other supine harnesses that they add a set of control bars on the downtubes that are farther back - this helps in flight as well, from what I see of their flights (since they have to steer from the downtubes and not the basetube).

Well, I've always heard that you have much better control authority on the downtubes than you do on the control bar so big fuckin' deal.

I've always been interested in the supine harness as it looks like an effortless way of flying around that doesn't wear out your shoulders and neck muscles.

To me it looks like the effortless way of landing using wheels gives on a lot more bang for the buck...

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3771/14081121287_b0edca7322_o.png
49-45904
14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


...in the not wearing out your shoulders and neck muscles department.

Nobody around here has one, though - and some of our launches don't really seem like it would be a good choice.

Tell me about some of your LZs that don't really seem like wheel landings would be good choices.

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/04 18:56:11 UTC

affirmative ... I may have been late releasing

Ya think? Ten seconds after lockout onset and with the towline slack and trailing a bit?

I'll need more flights before I decide if have a flare authority problem, but the plan would be to install flare handles on the DTs.

How come when I throw a few pulleys into a release system to increase the durability, efficiency, reliability, effectiveness, ease and simplicity of use I get pounced all over by scores of fuckin' douchebags with Rube Goldberg and KISS cracks but when somebody adds junk onto a glider to facilitate complex, useless, dangerous landings...

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/05 20:35:39 UTC

a better launch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcPbSAIjZ4E


items for attention include:

different (seated) harness
harness slightly lower
a 'no-reach' release
cg adjusted forward
hands lower
tailboom / tailwheel improvements

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

Jim Gaar - 2014/07/05 20:42:13 UTC

Besides saying "cool" I'm definitely glad you are looking into another type of release.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

Jim Gaar - 2011/07/14 15:40:13 UTC

In a litigious society like the U.S. it's all part of the game. If you don't like it, you just take your ball and go home...

This is the reality of the sport we love. "Always the student". Learn how to use it or don't. You just missed out on what every American pilot already knows from birth.

We assume risk every day. Sometimes with a LMFP release. Hope you get your issues ironed out. The classified section is ready if you don't.

Diev Hart - 2011/07/14 17:19:12 UTC

I have had issues with them releasing under load. So I don't try to release it under a lot of load now.

Check the classifieds. Lotsa good stuff available

I would make that one item TOP priority!

Make sucking my dick your one item TOP priority - pigfucker.

Keep up the good work Spark.

Wanna do some good work for the sport, Spark? Publicly gut this sleazy lying son of a bitch.

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/05 20:52:15 UTC

Thanks, and I appreciate your sound advice Jim. The release is my top priority.

Good job, Allen. Really appreciate it. Keep encouraging, legitimizing the lowest layers of scum infesting this sport. Give "peanuts" a nice thumb up next time the opportunity presents itself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31499
Experimentation ( trying Suprone )

Mike Badley - 2014/07/06 02:04:59 UTC

How comfortable is this, really?

I think the benefit of the supine harness is to have the base tube in front of you 'like a serving tray height' and to not be scrunched up with your knees up toward your chest and your arms out there up high on downtubes. That lower hang point gives great roll and pitch input authority.

Doesn't hurt to have your spreader...

1-3929
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3691/13230707023_2cab7b4c72_o.png


...where the fuckin' manual tells you to put it EITHER.

The supine position requires flare handles on the downtubes as you cannot rotate up on the bars.

Are flared landings also required?

I did see an Aussie/New Zealander pilot footage that had an 'adjustable' harness that let him haul himself 'up' for landing/take-off position and drop down for the flying portion.

Yeah LANDING position is so much different from FLYING position. You certainly don't wanna be in flying position when you're landing. (Did this footage show him landing in an environment in which being in landing position was advantageous?)

Lastly, that flying position means you are exposing your lower spine to the impact in a crash - I think.

I'll bet if he stays in FLYING position until the glider stops FLYING his likelihood of CRASHING will drop to ZILCH.

Anyway, it seems that this wheel has been invented, but you are going from a spoked, rubber wheel backwards to a rounded stone.

What was going from towing on a rope that NEVER broke - like the one that hang gliders USED to use and sailplanes have ALWAYS used - to towing on a rope that breaks every other tow and crashes gliders left and right?

Good luck, Spark - nothing says you can't try.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

He won't be having his li'l buddy pulling its head out of its ass every now and then long enough to dictate what he will and won't be permitted to use and do.

Definitely get that release in some kind of position in front of you and not below you.

Yeah. All he's gotta do is get that release in some kind of position in front of and not below him. Who ever heard of anybody dying 'cause he couldn't blow a release within easy reach right in front of him?

Did you hear him when he said, "a 'no-reach' release"? What's your idiot fucking reason for thinking that that's too high a bar, not really necessary, not worth pursuing?

Fumbling for it in an emergency could have bad results.

Taking a fucking hand off the fucking controls in an emergency, ON or OFF tow, could have FATAL results - and HAS, OVER and OVER and OVER and FUCKING *OVER*. What part of that are you having so much trouble fucking UNDERSTANDING?

Consider the Hewitt style 2 point bridle.

- Isn't that a THREE point bridle? Pilot and glider with two hip attachments on the secondary bridle?
- Yeah:
-- A Hewett Bridle makes it impossible to lock out.
-- That certainly qualifies as a no-reach release. Who ever heard of anyone locking out and slamming in still on tow on a Hewett Bridle?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31499
Experimentation ( trying Suprone )

Bob Knop - 2014/07/06 13:17:20 UTC

Hi Spork,

Spark

I see you use the same Finsterwalder spreaderbar, now at the end there are two loops to attach your pg harnas, this is where I have my double...

...Koch two stage...

...release with two handles attached. This position has the advantage that it still directs the tow force through the hangstrap...

ALL systems that connect to pilot only route all the tow force through the hang strap. The rest route it to or a bit fore of its position.

...without pulling your body forewards.

If the tow force is pulling forward (low tow angle) you're body's being pulled forward (in relation to the glider).

We do a lot of steptowing by winch and I see the release as my most important safety device...

Total...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

A weak link is the focal point of a safe towing system.

...bullshit. There's no fuckin' way the pilot is capable of the kind of judgment, speed, reliability, accuracy, infallibility that a piece of fishing line can deliver.

...ready to use in a split second.

Not THIS:

10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png


split second.

Also we switch from cable above the bar to underneath in the air, so it never interferes with the bottembar.

And you can never blow it without an easy reach. Tradeoff.
Not a bad option though. Shoulda mentioned it but didn't think it would work with suprone.

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/06 13:27:13 UTC

I'm not going to accept that one position (brain vs butt) offers more risk than the other ... it is just different risk.

Accept that upright with your hands at shoulder or ear height...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


...is the ABSOLUTE WORST way to bring a glider in.

I should clarify my intentions ... My purpose is to fly.

My purpose is to make flying SAFE. Which means that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

...I have nowhere TO fly. And I really appreciate the way people like you have been speaking up for me - and principles of fairness and decency in general - all these years.

This is my 38th season and I'd like to fly a few seasons more. Due to severe wear and tear on my back, I currently can't walk far or run, let alone foot launch or land a hang glider or paraglider. Also, I can't lay prone without pain and pressure on my spinal cord.

Neither can Jonathan.

I suspect you understand the difference between supine and suprone, but for others, I'll clarify.

Suprone is above the basetube. Suprone doesn't always require flare handles. Suprone is comfortable for me compared to prone..

I currently can't foot launch or land. I need to be above the wheels to take off and land on them.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

So, I'm not trying to fly supine.

Thanks for your suggestions. Beyond them, there is more to be worked out.
I'm not reinventing the wheel...

The way you would be...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots.

...if you dared fly anything other than the Sacred Fishing Line - or questionned the honesty, competence, intelligence, sanity of its advocates.

...I'm just trying to figure this out ...

What have you figured out you should be using as a weak link?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Allen Sparks - 2012/08/13 22:06:46 UTC

Kinda like MST3K for hang gliding...

...only different

Still the same one that increased the safety of the towing operation for Zack Marzec, the focal point of his safe towing system?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31499
Experimentation ( trying Suprone )

CAL - 2014/07/06 14:44:33 UTC

when most people would call it quits, Spark just keeps going !

Must be nice to have the option!

INSPIRATION, PASS IT ON !

Get fucked.

Mike Badley - 2014/07/06 16:32:14 UTC

It's not my intention to rain on your parade! You bring up some good points about the suprone/supine positions - I know this has been hashed many times in the past. Pros and cons and what not.

I haven't got the experience of either positions - just know that when I used to fly around with my feet on the base-tube and steering from the downtubes in a normal prone type harness - it felt different in control, easy to get discombobulated in control and not comfortable. Of course, that's not the kind of harness to do that with.

However, I do have the experience of tow - foot launched, dolly launched, platform launched with a payout and a teeny-weeny bit of aerotow. It seems to me the dangers of bad tows are all the same and the best way to survive them is to GET OFF THE TOW at the first sign of 'real' trouble...

What IS the first sign of 'real' trouble?

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

A bit of misalignment or being nearly upside down?

Do you think there's ANYBODY - who's got the basic left/right thing figured out before some asshole tows him anyway - on the planet who doesn't know the precise instant when he needs to bail?

...before the panic sets in...

BULLSHIT. You show me ONE video or give me ONE survivor quote indicating that PANIC was a factor in response.

"Panic" is just one of those Industry bullshit strategies like "just froze" and:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Diev Hart - 2012/03/06 01:06:39 UTC

Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.

and:

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

...to dump everything on the dead flyer and divert attention away from the fact that they were sent up on total shit equipment which gave him ZERO chance for survival when the shit hit the fan.

NOBODY "PANICS" when the shit hits the fan. EVERYBODY is doing the best job possible with the equipment at his disposal. And when that equipment is Industry Standard bullshit within easy reach the best job possible is damn near always to stay on the basetube all the way in in order to extend one's life an extra second or two.

"Boy am I lucky I got away with just two and half months in the hospital. I should've released but I...
- just froze."
- thought I could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over."
- made no attempt to release."
- panicked."

Bullshit.

...and things start happening really fast.

If they haven't already - which they almost certainly have.

So, with that in mind - having a release that is much more accessible...

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

There's no such thing as an ACCESSIBLE release when the shit hits the fan. If it's ACCESSIBLE or MORE ACCESSSIBLE it's every bit as useful as a backup loop. These releases:

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

are NOT *ACCESSIBLE*. And for some strange reason you never seem to hear about the people who use them:
- just freezing
- thinking they could fix bad things and not wanting to start over
- making no attempt to release
- panicking
And for some strange reason you never seem to find them available from US operations.

When you're about to be engaged in a firefight you don't want your assault rifle to be easily ACCESSIBLE. You want in in your fuckin' hands with your finger on the fuckin' trigger.

...than what you've shown is a big priority (which I think from past posts - you're already working on).

Didn't he say:

items for attention include:
a 'no-reach' release

Why does "NO FUCKIN' REACH" mean "more accessible" the same way "just prior to launch" means "whenever the fuck some asshole feels like it"?

I'm not seeing the benefit of flight in that suprone position - as opposed to video of the full supine. I can sure bet it is easier to take off/land in the suprone way.

I've got 27 years of flying and I can sure tell a big difference between being 56 in the air and 29. I did just recently readjust my High Energy suspension lines with new rope and the fit is SO MUCH BETTER and more comfortable now. Bodies do change...

Really fast sometimes when releases are "more accessible" and "just prior" is a minute or two.

Allen Sparks - 2014/07/06 17:37:59 UTC

No worries Mike. I had a scooter tow operation for a coupe of years along with some surface, platform, and AT experience. I totally agree with you on the risks of towing, etc.

Of course ya do, Allen. One big happy family you've got over there.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6342
The view from the other end of the rope

Patrick Halfhill - 2014/07/10 21:34:48 UTC

Or weekly for people like me

For dregs like you, Pat - DAILY.

Jim Rooney - 2014/07/15 00:34:21 UTC

Hey guys.
I've had some good conversations with people about this stuff lately.

Good conversations with good people. Whenever I start having bad conversations with bad people I use the ignore button, get the threads locked, get the bad people banned.

I'm glad it's been useful thus far.

How are Zack Marzec, Mark Knight, John Claytor doing these days?

Here's an interesting bit that I was a little hesitant to bring up because it's specific to me and goes a little against convention.

Specific to you AND goes a little against convention?! What COULD it be? 130 pound BLUEspot weak link material?

So, I'll start this off with some warnings, disclaimers and why I'm technically allowed to even recommend this.

You're TECHNICALLY ALLOWED to even recommend this?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release

Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
Boca Raton

The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.

I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.

So you got it cleared by the USHGA Towing Committee and the FAA?

We tow under FAR 91.309...
§91.309 Towing: Gliders and unpowered ultralight vehicles.

BULLSHIT. You violate the crap outta anything and everything you feel like every flight you take 'cause you're one hundred percent confident that you'll never be held accountable for anything - no matter how many more people you mangle and kill.

91.309(a)(5) The pilots of the towing aircraft and the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle have agreed upon a general course of action, including takeoff and release signals, airspeeds, and emergency procedures for each pilot.

91.309(a)(3) The towline used has a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not more than twice this operating weight. However, the towline used may have a breaking strength more than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle if--

(i) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle with a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle and not greater than twice this operating weight.

(ii) A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link of the towed glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.

For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.

In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

Ya'll seem to be missing this.
Once you go beyond three strand... you're not using a weaklink. If the weaklink goes, you're getting the rope.

So, what I'll be talking about is specific to me.

Oh, let's spread it around as much as possible. Nothing makes my day like new AT operations crashes and fatalities.

I know other tow pilots do this as well (most btw), but you'll need to talk to them about it...

But it's specific to you.

the regs are that we've agreed and I can't agree for them.

Oh, so "regs" are whatever one or more tug jockeys feel like calling regs.

Convention is that when you release the towline, you turn right and I turn left.
This comes from sailplane protocol.

In which the tug pilot - on the left side of his plane - can more effectively/easily clear his turn. Totally irrelevant with any of the stuff that tows hang gliders.

Sailplanes can outrun the tow plane, so when they let go, where they go is pretty important. A normal tug doesn't dive at 2,000fpm on release like we do.

And I'll bet that's you're absolute favoritest thing to do in aviation. That's why you dumped hang gliders and went with powered ultralights.

They can also more easily run into the wake of a normal tow plane.

Yeah, gotta watch out for that stuff. You can get your wings torn off.

So the FAA would prefer that tugs and gliders didn't run into each other. Pretty reasonable really.

How the fuck do you know? When, in the entire history of hang glider aerotowing, have those douchebags ever given the slightest indication of giving the slightest percentage of a rat's ass about anything that happens to anybody regardless of how blatant the violations off regulations have been?

Towing a hang glider is a bit different however. When you release, you'll be hard pressed to catch me. I'm not recommending trying. I'm just illustrating the difference.

Oh, thank you so very much. How WOULD we ever be able to get along without professional pilots such as yourself illustrating differences like that?

With all that in mind. Here's how it goes...

I'm not sure I'm capable of keeping all that in mind. Leave me behind, if it comes to that, and save the others.

There's pretty much only one reason I ever wave someone off while turning. It's because we're in lift.

Yeah. And the gliders need you to wave to tell them that.

If we're not in lift, I'll level my wings and wave you off.

If you're not in lift isn't it a pretty good bet that your wings will already be level?

In that case, by all means, turn right.

Are you alleging that you're conveying some kind of useful information somewhere in the course of this drivel?

However, if we're turning left and I'm waving, I'm trying to keep you in lift... feel free to keep turning left.
When you let go, I dive.

Got that everybody? When you're off tow Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney will go DOWN - not LEVEL or UP - to pick up another glider.

Anyone that's towed behind me knows what I'm talking about. I'm not shy about it. I don't "speed up a little", I tend to point the nose at the earth.
This puts a lot of air between us in a rapid fashion... that's the idea.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

It's also generally a good idea to sniff around a bit if I wave you off in a turn... even if you're not booming up. Again, I generally only wave people off in a turn if we're in or near lift. Otherwise, why bother? You can sense the lift better than I can, so don't take my word for it, but consider it a suggestion.

At the end of the day, it's your butt on the line, so do what you feel is safe.

Except, of course...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

...with respect to ANYTHING that ACTUALLY MATTERS.

I just don't want you to think that I'll be offended if you turn left.

Oh, perish the thought that any of us should do anything legally and off tow - when we've ceased being YOUR PASSENGER and once again resumed status of PILOTS In Command of OUR AIRCRAFT - that would cause Your Imperial Majesty the SLIGHTEST degree of offense. And with what duration of dick sucking may we provide thee tonight to express our appreciation for granting us this absolution?

Larry Huffman - 2014/07/15 11:12:42 UTC

Thanks for starting and continuing this thread Jim. I have flown at places where they insisted on the glider turning right upon release. However I do agree with you.

A little more with the tongue, Larry. And watch it with the teeth please.

I have found that the reduction of drag on the tug when the glider pilot releases causes a surge in speed for the tug that causes it to pull away from the glider even if it continues to climb which is often the case.

Oh. The tug instantly loses three hundred pounds of glider and 125 pounds of drag and it instantly starts flying a lot better? Who'da thunk.

There is a lag between glider release and tug pilot reaction time. Even a very small lag causes a separation between glider and tug.

Jim Rooney - 2014/07/15 13:04:42 UTC

Good point Larry.

Excellent point, Larry. As a reward I give you leave to cease pleasuring me fifteen seconds early.

That makes sense... it's not so much about the dive (although that helps after the fact), but it's more about gliders slowing down because of the release.

Oh. GLIDERS SLOW DOWN at the instant of separation. They lose thrust, airspeed, angle of attack goes up, stall point suddenly gets a lot closer...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

How 'bout this scenario, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

Ok, so what I do in strong stuff... is turn.

Zack Marzec...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke.

Glider's standing on its tail and going up like a rocket, pro toad has the bar stuffed - as he's had it for the entire previous duration of the tow, Rooney Link suddenly increases the safety of the towing operation. And...

...it's more about gliders slowing down because of the release...

...the glider slows down because of the release. Is that a GOOD thing?

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

Mark Cavanaugh - 2014/07/17 00:32:59 UTC

Just an observation about releasing... After a recent step up to a topless from the U2, I was surprised (though I shouldn't have been) at how hard it is to turn away from the tug after cutting away. Close to 1/2 VG and all...

Like, REALLY different.

I will have to pull in for speed/response quite a bit more aggressively than before. Nice to know that there will be natural separation in case I'm behind the curve... But still, need to do better!

Also very good to hear Jim's thoughts about staying with the turn when released in lift. That certainly expands the options!

Keep sucking away, Mark. You've got a wonderful cohesive friendly little group there - and a nice bent neck from a month and a half ago to keep not talking about while y'all indulge in this useless inane drivel.

But keep knocking yourselves out and keep encouraging your little pet piece of shit to keep talking. He loves to hear himself do it and it's mathematically impossible for him to say anything that doesn't flatly contradict a minimum of twenty of his previous statements. And we're overdue for another good relevant fatality - preferably one of you guys at Ridgely - that I'm gonna have a lot of fun with.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6366
Some things I've learned about hang gliding

Jim Rooney - 2014/07/20 09:34:42 UTC

I'm no guru...

Then...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...what hope have we? Where can we possibly go to get solid information on hang gliding? Way down seems to be the only direction and if we have to further compromise our safety that much I just can't see how continuing on can be justified.

...but apparently I've been doing this long enough to have learned a few things that seem to help people.

How 'bout THIS:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


person? Two planes fly into the same air seconds apart. Fuckin' ultralight experiences a strong surge which doesn't faze him in the slightest. Fuckin' glider with a professional tandem aerotow instructor at the wheel tumbles to his death. Not a single shred of an idea what went wrong. So what does anything else matter? If you're one hundred percent totally useless on the massive critical obvious stuff then why should we waste our time listening to you on the chickenshit issues?

Living at a tow park, you're exposed to this stuff on a daily basis.

And other dregs such as yourself - all with your heads up your asses at world record extents.

Some things seem to pop up pretty regularly.

I'll tell ya one thing that stopped "popping" up regularly.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=2&start=2300

Nobody questions the use of 130 pound test fishing line as the ultimate universal pitch and lockout protector anymore. (246 posts, locked, Page 93, 3105 hits, T** at K*** S****** still waiting for the expiration of three month suspension he got for calling you stupid incompetent pigfuckers stupid incompetent pigfuckers.)

Here's some of my favourites.

Let's do some of your LEAST favoUrites instead - you pretentious little prick. Those tend to be MY favorites.

Staying up.
A huge topic for sure. There's just so much to it. But, where do you start? What's really important?

How 'bout...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...GETTING UP to the point at which it's POSSIBLE to STAY UP in the first place? Why don't we start there?

In a word? ... well, it's two actually.
Lapse Rate.

Yeah, the better the lapse rate the more likely you are to bake in line all afternoon with relights and tandems cutting in front of you.

If there is one thing that dominates all others for staying up, that's pretty much it.

BULL FUCKING...

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

http://ozreport.com/16.078
The Rob Kells Meet

Davis Straub - 2012/04/18 15:02:09 UTC

Mitch Shipley (T2C 144) crashed at launch after a weak link break. He tried to stretch out the downwind leg and then drug a tip turning it around and took out his keel (at least).

...SHIT.

After all, what does it really matter how you fly if there are no thermals or if they're too weak to use?

It's the only air I've got a fair chance of getting up in and the only air I've got ANY chance of getting halfway SAFELY up in. I only go out on sled days now.

Start with the lapse rate. It's too easy and natural to judge yourself for sinking out. "Why can't I stay up?"

Pigfucker Dragonfly jockeys with their heads up their asses.

Where to find it?
Dr Jack.
There are plenty of other sources, but Dr Jack's Blipmap is clean and simple.
http://www.drjack.info/BLIP/

It will also help you to understand when to fly, rather than just worshiping at the altar of "2pm".
I could write a book on the 2pm myth...

Oh please do. I can hardly wait. Then maybe you could write another book on the trail and error process that resulted in the determination that 130 pound test fishing line was the ultimate universal pitch and lockout protector for all solo gliders.

...the weather is no where near that simple.

But the standard aerotow weak link... What could be more simple to tie, use, understand? Please write us that book. Should be a real page turner.

Coring.
This one simple rule of thumb will keep you in the air better than anything else...

Not nearly as much as another one of you stupid pro toad motherfuckers tumbling to his death from 150 feet over the runway. Got a lot more people a lot happier with two hundred pound fishing line than ever before or since.

If the lift is increasing, turn less. If the lift is decreasing, turn more.

Here's a wonderful article about it...
It is truly magical...

I don't have my glasses. Does it say anything truly magical about what to do when you're towing off your shoulders only with the bar fully stuffed just to stay down level with the tug, you hit some strong lift that stands you on your tail, and your Rooney Link suddenly increases the safety of the towing operation?

The 270deg correction.
This goes hand in hand with that coring rule of thumb.
If you follow the rule, you will do this without realizing it.
When you hit lift... DO NOT TURN!

Throw your chute. You've only got about a 1.5 second window to work with.

This is probably the #1 mistake people make when learning to thermal. Remember that rule of thumb? The lift is increasing... fly STRAIGHTER... wait for it to decrease... then turn. The direction of the turn doesn't matter. You use the same plan either way... that golden rule.
If you guess correct, the lift will increase and you'll flatten out a little... you're already in lift and finding the core at this point... carry on.
If you guess wrong, the lift will decrease.
OH GOD!
Don't panic... follow the plan. Disaster awaits those who don't.
The lift is decreasing?... turn more.
Still decreasing?... turn more.
You will eventually find that you do a 270deg turn.
A 270deg turn is like turning the opposite direction. If you were going to turn left, but instead turn right three times, you still wind up going left.
BUT
You spend less time in sink.
When you hit the lift again, you're already in the correct position to core it.
Follow the plan.
It works.

Thanks bigtime, asshole. If I recall correctly I was doing just fine with thermals a couple decades before you showed up on the scene to show us all the light and save us from ourselves.