landing

[Steve Davy]

Nice to see that she's still configured with a two point bridle, and now has the release actuator in hand rather than that ridiculous downtube actuator set-up.

[Tad Eareckson]

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Progress.

[Tad Eareckson]

Preface... I had a short email exchange with Niki - moments before, it sounded like, she was going off the grid for a couple months - and I'm pretty sure she gets this, but for the purpose of the exercise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDqoI9d4hE
Another first: foot landing.

Niki Longshore - 2014/04/03

Another first: foot landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDqoI9d4hE


No whack for this girl! (But it was close.) I'm proud because I made a commitment and I stuck with it (opposed to wheels). Besides, it's about time to stop grass-staining my harness!

Another first: foot landing.

Also... First:

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- tail wire snag

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- placement of hands where you have total shit for control
- really good opportunity to break an arm or dislocate a shoulder

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- dependence upon running

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- crappily controlled deceleration

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- bonk

Where WILL we find an adequate supply of champagne?

No whack for this girl!

Don't worry. With this strategy you can rest assured there's one coming just around the next corner.

THIS girl:

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on the other hand, was BULLETPROOF. Just like these guys:

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(But it was close.)

Duh. You're opting for a landing strategy which has total shit for safety/control margins. It's ALWAYS gonna be close - AT BEST. At worst - whack, broken downtube, broken arm, dislocated shoulder, ended career, broken neck, quadriplegia, death. ALL of those have happened to people who would've come out smelling like roses if they'd just stayed prone on the basetube.

I'm proud...

Ya know what pride goeth before? Pride is a REALLY CRAPPY feeling to allow one's self (or one's students) in aviation. It's freakin' amazing just how fast Mother Nature can switch it to the polar opposite. It's really hard to go wrong with feeling a bit humble, inadequate, inferior, scared, lucky. Lessens both the chances of something bad happening and the shock and disappointment you feel if it does.

...because I made a commitment...

That's another thing that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31041
Genuinely advanced pilot

Craig Pirazzi - 2014/04/06 17:00:07 UTC
Telluride

The Best pilots are those whose awareness and decision making skills are in the moment, and so remain flexible, able to adjust at an instant and have access to the most options and skills available to safely fly in an ever changing environment.

...tends not to work well in aviation.

...and I stuck with it...

Give ya an example:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.

anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.

...(opposed to wheels).

Good expression for hang gliding in general - opposed to wheels. Also: hook-in checks, short field approaches, mid safety range weak links, releases that don't totally stink on ice, referring to tow force as tension, physics, theory, crash reports, anybody with half a brain or better...

I'm proud because I made a commitment and I stuck with it (opposed to wheels).

See this motherfucker?:

05-2011
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He doesn't start making a commitment to foot landing until about...

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...two seconds from touchdown and then ONLY IF everything's going optimal.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Does that sound PROUD to you?

*IF* you're gonna foot land that's the model you need to follow. Really low in the pride and commitment departments. But don't foot land unless...

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...you've got a fair bit of smooth breeze in your face and it's brain dead easy.

Besides, it's about time to stop grass-staining my harness!

Fuck your harness. If it's not designed to be skidded in it's CRAP. And, yeah, they're ALL crap - just like ALL Industry Standard aerotow "releases".

Nobody with half a brain or better flies a glider that can't be safely rolled or skidded in. Even the sleaziest instructors this sport has to offer will insist on wheels for new flyers at least. So why is there an expectation that your glider WILL be bellied in but your harness WON'T be?

When are you expecting the become so proficient that...

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...you won't be bellying in and grass staining, soiling, abrading your harness? The fuckin' piece o' shit harness is INCENTIVIZING YOU to opt for a landing that's virtually guaranteed to crash your glider and highly likely to get you seriously injured. Take it to a sailmaker or upholsterer and get it modified with skid plates so you won't have the slightest hesitation about burning it in on your belly.

malibu188

Good landing.

Bullshit. It was marginal, dangerous, and ugly. When a Cessna ends up with its nose resting on the runway nobody says, "Good landing!"

Nice approach and setup as well.

Right up to the point at which she started taking her hands off the CONTROL BAR and getting tangled up in the port tail wire.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/07/01 00:13:57 UTC

The more closely I look at these videos the more I come to believe that the Rooney Landing in which a hand or two DOESN'T get hung up on a wire and/or wind up on the wrong side of a downtube is the rare exception.

Your batting a thousand here, Niki.

surfHIandive

Thank you malibu

Tell malibu to go fuck himself. He's not doing you any favors.

treeamigo

I just saw this! That is awesome. You CAN put it to your feet. Don't focus on the wacking. It will happen some time but remember focusing on it makes it more likely to happen. Just create a nice mental picture of a good approach and landing, then do it. You already do organized approaches very well - that is the toughest part of setting yourself up for a great landing.

This guy, if you don't know already, is Nate Wreyford. Mega-asshole.

motomarkflyer

too cool.thought it was going to touch.but you were like noooooo!

Leave her the fuck alone. If you wanna encourage behavior that's gonna get an arm snapped in half do it on the Jack, Davis, Greblo, Cragin, Bob Shows.

I just reviewed all of your relevant videos and the accompanying comments. When you were doing those breathtakingly beautiful perfect wheel landings you had precisely ONE compliment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbprjDGXIII
Target landing a hang glider.

Ted Sullivan

Very nice landing!!

And that was UNDOUBTEDLY for stopping within a couple of feet of a goddam traffic cone (something I hope to NEVER see you do again). And then you do this crappy bonked foot landing and it's all, "You GO, girl!" This is totally down the rabbit hole. Step back, take an objective look at what you're doing and what's happening, reboot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDqoI9d4hE
Another first: foot landing.

Nate Wreyford (treeamigo)

I just saw this! That is awesome.

I just saw THIS!:

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That was awesome too. That's what can happen when your priority is more about stopping on your feet than stopping safely in on a brain dead easy landing strip and your hand gets hooked on a tail wire a couple times.

You CAN put it to your feet.

You will never NEED to put it on your feet, it'll multiply your likelihood of crashing by about a thousand, it's the one idiot procedure that's most likely to knock you out of the sport temporarily or permanently - but you CAN put it on your feet. So therefore you MUST! Everybody else does, right? You'd be some kind of freak if you didn't, right? You don't wanna be a freak, do ya?

Don't focus on the wacking.

You don't need to. That'll come naturally, inevitably.

It will happen some time...

Not after she finishes perfecting her flare timing.

Yeah. It WILL happen occasionally, it's an inevitable ticket to crashing your glider - but do it anyway. It's like a Rooney Link - it increases the safety of the flying operation. Just make sure to keep ignoring what you're actually seeing and experiencing.

...but remember focusing on it makes it more likely to happen.

Exactly the way focusing on your flare timing makes it more likely to happen. Flip a coin.

Just create a nice mental picture of a good approach and landing, then do it.

She was doing that with beauty beyond description...

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...before you fuckin' shitheads started working on her to do it PROPERLY.

You already do organized approaches very well - that is the toughest part of setting yourself up for a great landing.

Bullshit. It's easy, and fun, and can be improved on safely and easily and her landings couldn't get any greater than the way she was doing them from the start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y9ylIiFZ6Y
My Third Hang Gliding Solo

Niki Longshore - 2013/12/02

Landing is definitely my favorite part!

And now it's something you're doing because you made a commitment to it. And you're no longer saying it's your favorite part! It's now something that you're afraid of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_2holKUTxM
Hang Gliding, Landing on Wheels

Niki Longshore - 2014/02/10

Though I don't know what it's like to land on my feet (yet), I am enjoying the wheels!
And now you're NOT enjoying your wheels. You're working on mastering the foot stuff.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

And every time you work on mastering the foot stuff you're robbing yourself of the fun stuff. And you never get another shot at making that experience what it could've been.

Look around the forums. Quote me a halfway sane person saying:
- Foot landing is definitely my favorite part!
- I really am enjoying these foot landings!

What you DO find is a lot of talk about Ryan Voight landing clinics, recommendations to spend days at training hills to maintain or boost proficiency, wishes for full and speedy recoveries.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

michael170 - 2014/07/10 21:17:17 UTC

Hang Gliding - 2004/11
Executive Director Speaks Out
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Jayne DePanfilis

Article:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post35.html#p35

Jason Boehm - 2014/07/10 21:39:04 UTC

what a load- its not a "special skill"...

I'd agree with that much. I thought it was a load o' crap too. Day One, Flight One students do it fine all the time.

it doesn't "broaden" any window

'Cept that people are so hardwired to foot landing that they will literally kill themselves trying to foot land rather than considering bellying in.

if you can't land on your feet in a groomed field, then how in the hell are you going to do it in one with 4' tall grass, or rocks, or cross slope & crosswind

1. This asshole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDqoI9d4hE
Another first: foot landing.

Nate Wreyford - 2014/04

Don't focus on the wacking. It will happen some time but remember focusing on it makes it more likely to happen.

says whacking WILL happen - and we've got tons of videos of testosterone poisoned skygods verifying that statement. Thus if it WILL happen it's fuckin' moronic to come down in four foot grass (or wheat like the stuff that demolished Paul Vernon). Not much smarter to be doing rocks - like where Jonathan broke his toe.

I'll start worrying about cross slope and wind when I start seeing videos and/or hearing reports of people getting fucked up 'cause they couldn't nail foot landings

to pretend you can "land on your feet when you need to" is ignorant, its dangerous, its how people get hurt

1. To put yourself in a situation in which you NEED TO land on your feet is moronic, dangerous, how people get hurt, demolished, killed.

2. The overwhelming cause of people getting fucked up is practicing for situations in which they need to land on their feet that:
- they would never encounter
- no responsible competent pilot would ever put himself into

here are the special skills
http://www.ushpa.aero/ratings_table.asp

the only thing on there relating to "landing gear" is the
LGO- (Landing gear only)

and thats not a "specially skill" either, its a restriction on the pilot
Quote:

Designated landing method (RESTRICTION) of "Landing Gear Only" (LGO) will restrict tandem activity for that pilot to landing gear operations only at LGO suitable sites

Name some tandem operations in which gliders are:
- foot landed
- ever so much as bonked

if you want to land on wheels, go for it, but don't make it out to be something its not

Who ya talkin' to, douchebag? He posted a transcription of a Hang Gliding magazine article. (Don't mention it, it was nothing.) Not one punctuation mark of his own and he made no comment on it whatsoever.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

Jason Boehm - 2014/07/10 22:01:35 UTC

michael170 wrote:

A pilot who doesn't need to transition to the downtubes during approach won't stall the glider during that moment of transition.

No. michael170 DIDN'T wrote that. Jayne DePanfilis wrote that.

A pilot that knows how to fly an approach won't stall

1. Neither will a pro toad who's been trained how to properly react to a Rooney Link pop.
2. Who gives a flying fuck anyway. Since when did stalls become dangerous.

in 14 years and hundreds if not thousands of flights, I've never "stalled in transition"

Well OK then. If YOU've never stalled in transition in fourteen years and hundreds if not thousands of flights then it's obviously nothing anybody ever has to worry about.

Asshole.

Wayne Ripley - 2014/07/10 22:35:03 UTC
Cromwell, Connecticut

A load of shit, wheel landings? If you fly with wheels and are not proficient at wheel landing you are missing the boat. To think that you must land on your feet is old school and if the option is not to fly or land wheels give me wheels every time.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

And if you don't fly with wheels, well your time will come!

I can't WAIT until Jason gets it. That'll be a truly great day for hang gliding.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

NMERider - 2014/07/10 22:43:51 UTC

Jason & michael170,

Jayne DePanfilis was the executive director of USHPA...

It was still USHGA back then.

...when she published this op-ed piece in the Nov, 2004 issues of HGPG magazine.

And the magazine was still separate.

It was her job to do what she could to help grow the sport.

Too bad...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...it didn't work. Now really GOOD writing, like Dr. Trisa Tilletti's 2012/06 fourteen page weak link article...

There existed then just as there exists now an attitude among many outspoken pilots that nobody should be flying if they can't land safely on their feet.

Nobody can safely land on his feet. How many more Everests worth of evidence do we need?

I don't expect the debate to ever die out just as the bicycle helmet debate will continue until the next Ice Age.

Fuck... The debate will die out when the sport dies out...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide

Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC
San Diego

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37419
HG / PG the saga might not continue ?

Dontsink - 2014/05/09 10:39:46 UTC

Here in Spain there are a lot of HG pilots who also fly PG's.
For morning sled rides, hike and fly or when simply feeling too lazy to carry and rig the HG.
On the other hand most PG pilots really like how HG's fly but will never give it a try.
Too much hard work and scary landings.

And foot landings are killing it like nothing else.

But there is an unspoken factor behind many pilots who land best on their feet in the widest variety of conditions. They were out there practicing over and over again while everyone else was only coming out when the flying was good.

And who in his right mind...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...would wanna do anything like that?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

Just tow on days when the Rooney Links won't go left and right.

The guys who were out there working on their basic skills...

If foot landing is a "basic skill" then how come guys need to be working on it all the time throughout their careers? How come you hear virtually no chatter about people needing to work to stay current on foot launches, thermalling, approaches, aerobatics?

...the most often and have the best skills very often had excellent and consistent coaching.

Sadly, there are far too many differing opinions and landing technique and too few people available to give consistent coaching on a regular basis. It just does not happen.

Name some other flavors of aviation in which all this coaching is called for.

Meanwhile in nearly every other sport on Earth there are coaches and practice fields and courts where you can get out there with a coach or instructor and work on your fundamental skills for as many hours of as many days as you can afford.

Hang gliding isn't a "sport". It's a flavor of aviation. An average Joe who's bagged a Three should be able to show up a couple times a year in any sane conditions and fly.

What's really tragic is that not only this is the rare exception in hang gliding but if you blow a launch or landing you will probably get hurt or worse.

1. Foot launches are dangerous but you get to pick the moment.
2. Show me some videos of blown wheel landings.

If you blow a swing or a throw, etc. the worse that happens is the ball misses the target or maybe you pull a muscle.

Now you ARE talking sports. You're talking about shit that requires a lot of skill and conditioning and in which you're EXPECTED to miss. Pitchers REGULARLY walk batters, batters REGULARLY strike out. If the demands of aviation were that demanding nobody would have any fuckin' business flying anything. Fuckin' carrier pilots tend to go whole careers without slamming into the stern a single time.

Not so in hang gliding.

Bullshit. The safety margins for these landings:

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are so fuckin' wide and the skill and performance requirements are so fuckin' low that you're about a thousand times more likely to fuck yourself up getting out of the bathtub.

So all of these debaters and all of the braggarts...

Jason? Eternally talking about his fantastic skills and record and totally ignoring all the carnage...

14-00725
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...going on around him when REAL people are flying these things?

...and all of the Baptist preachers of which there is no shortage from any camp, do little more than to muddy up the waters.

If online posters and LZ preachers want to help pilots who cannot land (or launch) well enough they need to be applying pressure to the deficient pilots to get with one coach and one coach only. They need to be pressured to spend the money and the time needed to do it in a way that is safe and works consistently for them.

They've already done that. They've gone to some piece o' shit USHGA certified program and been gouged for a rating that's supposed to have qualified them. If they can't launch or land worth shit - and it appears to me that the vast majority CAN'T - then you need to start getting instructor heads on pikes. And Lockout would be a great place to start.

It is time consuming and takes money.

Fuck it. Done that already. Wanna spend my time soaring now.

Just ask Smokenjoe50 just how much time and energy he has put into transforming his basic skills. We may not be best friends and I assure you we are not, but that does not mean that I don't respect what he has done to improve his skills. He didn't get it by reading forum posts,

1. 'Specially not posts on THAT forum. Signal to noise ratio totally sucks.

2. So what are you saying? That what's required can't be well explained in print, illustrated with photos and videos? I one hundred percent guarantee you that there are a lot Lockout Mountain Flight Park victims who'd be a lot more alive and well if they'd gone with just a correspondence course from Yours Truly and had never had an instructor anywhere near them.

He did it by getting out there 4 to 5 days each week and doing it over and over and over again.

What fun.

He also stuck with one role model: Ryan Voight.

Oh good. Another Ryan Clone. Now if ever his instant hands free release doesn't work quite as well as he believes it will all will not be lost - we'll have a backup.

It worked because he did the work.

Maybe he can show us how to roll control just using lateral hang strap pull.

I hope others out there get the message.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they will. I also have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that unhooked launch and landing crash rates will continue unabated.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

Fletcher - 2014/07/11 00:22:17 UTC

So here's my 2cents
Landing properly on wheels is a skill.

So's falling off a log.

Landing properly on wheels is a must for those of us that can't or chose not to land on our feet.

How 'bout those of us who want our safety margins as wide as possible on one of the two most dangerous phases of flight?

Landing properly on wheels is a blast.

1. Quote me somebody...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes


http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...ever saying otherwise.

2. 'Specially in comparison to the absolute hell of foot landings.

I believe those pilots that land on wheels know not to put themselves into a situation that requires landing in 4' grass.

ANY competent pilot does. This four foot grass business is total bullshit. Can somebody with hot skills get away with it a few times? Very probably. Get away with it in the long run or when Mother Nature decides to throw a curve ball? Good freakin' luck.

With a very few exceptions I've landed on my feet for 26 years and while on a flying vacation to South America injured my leg on my first landing of the trip. Without wheel landings the trip would have been wasted.

Instead we installed twelve inch wheels and I had several excellent flights with perfectly safe wheel landings.

But of course not in the same field where you fucked up your leg. Would've been totally disastrous if you'd tried a wheel landing there.

Imagine a scenario where you have a choice to land on wheels or not fly at all. What would you choose?

How many thousands of people do you think there've been who'd have done real well to choose not fly at all if the other option had been foot landing?

Please don't criticize others for their methods just because theirs are different than yours.

You mean like?:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

I was WAAAY ahead of you motherfuckers. And I didn't get shit in the way of covering fire back then. (Hey Jack... Open your idiot mouth. See what happens.)

Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/07/11 01:26:06 UTC

I agree, if it weren't for wheels i could no way in hell land on my fucked up knee while wearing a prosthetic leg.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1542/25648044624_0566ac9ee8_o.jpg

Wheels make it possible for me to fly - I could not fly at all if i had no wheels.

This is the strongest stand for wheel landings I've EVER seen. People are older, more fragile, tired of being scared, crashed, busted up; have gotten smart enough to know that the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place argument is bullshit. Jason's getting hammered and Jack's fuckin' history.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

NMERider - 2014/07/11 02:54:08 UTC

Nobody is criticizing others for their methods just because of differences.

Then let me be the first then... Jason's an asshole.

The only criticism I saw leveled is against the notion that landing on wheels is skill that merits a sign-off.

Which no one there came close to making. Not even Jayne or Christian proposed that.

What's patently absurd is that the 100# author who proposed this...

Quote me her proposing that.

...back in 2004 was flying a Falcon 140 with twelve inch wheels.

How 'bout fuckin' Davis Dead-On Straub and his fellow Aerotow Industry douchebags mandating that Jayne DePanfilis and Joe Schmucker...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

...fly the exact same chintzy piece of fishing line 'cause they determined through quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows that that was the ideal one-sized-fits-all pitch and lockout protector?

That would be like me landing my Falcon 3 195 on sixteen inch wheels.

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http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/14422781117_a4a3b72ee6_o.png

Obviously there is nothing wrong with site flying where there's a groomed LZ and avoiding any possibility of landing out.

Landing out seldom means having to settle for a more dangerous field. It can often mean the opposite.

Not everyone is willing or even interested in going XC and having to possibly land in some of the freaking places some us have set down.

Like the Big T Wash where you broke a toe and advised NOBODY to ever use?

Even Ryan Voight, the self-proclaimed master of the one-step landing admitted that he too had reservations about flying XC.

And notice the environment he's using to illustrate...

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...the "Perfect Landing".

So lemme see if I've got this right... The only reason we practice dangerous foot landings on primary putting greens is so's we can safely fly XC and land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. But the only place it's acceptably safe to execute the dangerous foot landings we need to safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is in primary putting greens. Have I missed anything?

So the ability to safely and consistently land on one's feet...

There's no such thing as landing safely on one's feet. Mike Barber - correctly - defines safe as something that can be reliably duplicated something in the ballpark of a hundred thousand times in a row.

08-2301
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5285/13962452653_58aca0cbfc_o.png


Some hotshot young punk like Jason citing his personal record is meaningless.

...without having to rely upon wheels is precisely the thing that allows existing pilots to expand their horizons and fly more sites.

Real fuckin' bummer that sailplanes have no comparable ability to expand their horizons and fly more sites.

Try this experiment...

Two teams of highly/equally skilled XC pilots fly their brains out on the same days from the same sites through a season. Team A foot lands exclusively. Team B rolls or skids in. My prediction is that Team B is gonna kick Team A's ass. Also that there will be a much higher number of Bs completing the season in airworthy condition.

Think of it as a motivating force rather than the overcoming of a handicap or deficiency.

As far as I'm concerned it's the fuckin' foot landing that's the massive handicap/deficiency. And...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.

...I'm far from alone in that perspective.

By the very same token having wheels on the ship of an experienced XC pilot is a very nice safety feature and helps avoid sudden stopping of the glider if...

...WHEN...

...the control bar gets dropped.

And LET'S NOT FORGET that by going to the downtubes...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...you've greatly reduced the possibility that you'll be able to get to the point at which dropping the bar and sudden stopping is an appreciable worry.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

When I was recovering from my ankle fracture I was flying again with my lower leg in a big walking boot and landed on wheels for the next ten flights or so. Many of these I have on video.

How 'bout posting them so's I don't hafta keep giving Niki all the glory?

It was a blast.

No shit. And isn't that the whole point of flying XC? Doesn't getting a blast wheel landing result in an overall blast better than what you'd get stretching the flight an extra half mile and having a stressed out foot landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?

I'd come in hot and see how far I could roll before stopping the glider and trying to balance on the wheels while the keel remained in the air. In fact, using wheels like this helped me improve my foot landings as I became more comfortable coming into ground effect with good speed and skimming near the ground before setting up my flare.

So using wheels can help a foot landing pilot improve his foot technique while having wheels can help a wheel landing pilot improve his or her foot technique by having that extra measure of safety.

But Jason's saying:

Jason Boehm - 2014/07/10 21:39:04 UTC

to pretend you can "land on your feet when you need to" is ignorant, its dangerous, its how people get hurt

Isn't that total bullshit? Do you think that if you duct taped somebody's hands to the basetube his entire career then turned him loose over a sea of four foot grass he'd be totally helpless, have zero chance of stopping it on a dime?

Here's a place where you want to be confident in your foot landing technique while wheels would have helped keep a dropped bar from digging in.

And looking at the port downtube it DOES appear that a dropped bar did indeed dig in.

And here's a place:

01-1019
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where you're about to break a toe and subsequently tell us not to land in. And it's a fuckin' putting green in comparison.

We CANNOT AFFORD to be coming down in shit like that and practicing for how to do it is just gonna get arms broken. What we SHOULD BE practicing is how NOT TO come down in shit like that.

Anybody wanna disagree with me on that? Would anybody find a comparable LAUNCH acceptable? That looks like a good place to set up over and throw your parachute.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window

Nic Welbourn - 2014/07/11 05:14:04 UTC
Canberra

I use wheels just about every flight, but never plan to use them. If I had an injury or did not have the skills to land on my feet I'd plan to land on wheels (ie. no leaving the hill).

But since you DO have the skills to nail your foot landings it's perfectly safe for you to put yourself into situations in which you NEED to nail your foot landings. But otherwise you'd never leave the hill because there'd be no fuckin' way you could stay in range of stuff in which wheel landings would be as safe as foot landings in four foot high grass or narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Wheels can be handy but not being able to land on thy feet could be quite limiting I'd guess...

You'd GUESS. And while you'd be GUESSING you'd, of course, TOTALLY IGNORE all examples of people who fly XC and wheel land as matters of both choice and necessity - along with statements of people who've flown XC extensively and report never having had to come down in wheel hostile environments.

...it would limit the sense of freedom and relaxation I get when flying.

You'd GUESS. And, of course, there's really nothing like the sense of freedom and relaxation one gets knowing he's gonna be coming down in an environment in which he needs to nail his foot landing to keep from getting seriously fucked up. In Australia - which is just one vast continental minefield.

Wheels have likely saved me damage and injury a few times already...

How many times have foot landings likely saved you damage and injury?

...here is a rough landing from some years ago where I sustained my worst HG injury (a little graze) and my only equipment damage (bent sail rib).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPwTgBTlXSU
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPwTgBTlXSU[/video]

Yeah, I can sure understand why it would be totally insane to leave the hill if wheel landing were your only option in a hell hole like that.

Now let's talk about full-faced helmets, because anyone who wears one or not should be criticized for their reckless actions.

How 'bout let's talk about backup loops, hang checks, Rooney Links, pro toad bridles, releases within easy reach instead?

AndRand - 2014/07/11 10:35:39 UTC
Poland

I would agree with and support each and every paragraph from the first post...

The first post isn't really a post. It's a magazine article transcription.

...as well as all of Fletcher's points except one:

Landing properly on wheels is a blast.

NO, landing on feet is a blast.

1. For you maybe. But I'm not seeing anybody jumping in to agree with you. The overwhelming sentiment expressed about them is that it's a challenge - something of an evil people have been brainwashed and/or brainwashed themselves into believing is necessary to make them safe pilots / increase their chances of survival in the long run.

2. I hear crystal meth is a blast. But there seems to be a lot of evidence out there that doing it all the time ain't the best of ideas.

3. Fletcher stated that landing properly on wheels is a blast. So because for you foot landing is a blast wheel landing can't be a blast for anyone else?

It is awesome way to feel the flight complete that can beat all the thrill during the flight.

You must be doing a lot of really boring sled runs. I think it's pathetic and sad that someone can feel that some crappy little one and a half second whipstall can top all the experience and feelings from the previous hour and a half of soaring. If that's truly the case then why don't you just go to a thirty foot training hill and knock yourself out?

It is like... you know...

No, I'm afraid I actually don't - and really hope not to.

seb - 2014/07/11 11:46:57 UTC
Alabama

You should land however you need to in order to get up and fly again.

You should always land in the manner that gives you the best odds of being able to get up and fly again.

If your just cruising around your local LZ and its perfect for wheel landings and thats what you prefer great.

But if you go XC and it's perfect for foot landings then that's what you should prefer. And I'm having a real hard time imagining a more perfect place for foot landing than HERE:

These other guys are not there to help you if you stuff a landing so ignore them. You should know how to land on your feet and practice landing in the event that you make a wrong turn and end up down wind in an area that a wheel landing is going to be really bad.

Wouldn't it be one helluva lot easier, safer, more bang for the buckish, more fun to practice not making wrong turns and ending up downwind in areas in which a wheel landing is gonna be really bad? Isn't that one of the primary foci of conventional aviation - including sailplaning? Don't they have rather good success with that strategy?

Just like those with wheels that never land on them should practice landing on them once in a while.

1. If they haven't broken their arms already.

2. Name someone who has good foot landing skills who needs to practice landing on his wheels. This is like recommending that a soccer player should practice walking down the driveway to the mailbox once in a while.