http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31557
To Wheel Or Not To Wheel...
NMERider - 2014/07/12 03:03:24 UTC
I have always found wheels to be a mixed blessing.
Michael Farren - 2014/07/13 02:18:43 UTC
South Bunbury
Most new pilots are told to get wheels when they start out in hang gliding, I agree with this for various safety and down tube savings issues. What have you found are the "mixed blessings"?
NMERider - 2014/07/13 03:17:14 UTC
Wheels make self-launching in windy or gusty conditions far less safe. It's impossible to quickly plant your control bar to stabilize the glider. They also extend the height of the control frame and increase the chances of striking something and upsetting ground handling of the glider. If flying XC and landing on a plowed dirt field not only do wheels not work but they increase your chances of having the glider pitch over by snagging in a furrow.
Different size and shape wheels cause different adverse issues and have different benefits. Wheels allow pilots to fly and land safely who would otherwise be at risk. Several hundred of my lifetime of 1400 hours of flying was done with wheels. I used to do one-man L/D contests and land on a soccer field using drilled out hockey pucks as landing wheels. Never had an issue with them either.
I am no more anti-wheel than I am anti-bicycle helmet or anti-snowboard helmet. You see there is ample statistically valid data to support that helmets are a mixed blessing too by contributing to as many deaths and injuries as they prevent.
There are times that having even little bitty hockey-puck wheels would have saved me a lot of pain. I have pretty graphic video of landing on a dry lake bed with invisible dust devils popping off all around me. Even though I was landing into the prevailing wind a dust devil caused my 4mph head wind to become an 8-10 mph tail wind. Even though I nailed the landing flare and hit the keel just right the dust devil-induced tail wind slammed the glider down on me forcing me to strike my tailbone on the rock-hard dry lake. Had I been flying with 5" diameter wheels or even the Wills Wing 4-1/4" offset wheels (that I loathe) I could have easily and safely done a downwind wheel landing.
It's sadly unfortunate that so many pilots go into a near religious fervor either pro-wheel or con-wheel. I believe this battle has harmed the sport and lead to many avoidable injuries and damaged gliders. We are flying aircraft that have very limited control and that give the pilot very little protection. I have seen expensive powered aircraft land with malfunctioning retractable gear and go sliding a quarter mile down an asphalt runway or off onto the grass and then slide on their nose. But in each case the pilot had excellent aerodynamic control and was encased in a sturdy cockpit. There were no injuries and aircraft damage was minimal. We don't have those luxuries.
Pilots should be given valid and valuable information for all available wheel and non-wheel options. They should not be pressured, insulted or ridiculed but they are and that is inexcusable. I have seen more collateral damage done in the so-called name of safety than I can count. That needs to stop and pilots should be well-informed and then allowed to chose freely and without duress. Come what may.
Note: It's always a good idea to read and re-read Mike Meier's seminal essay on safety:
http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=HandleOnSafety
Cheers,
Jonathan
Wheels make self-launching in windy or gusty conditions far less safe.
Use lockable wheels.
It's impossible to quickly plant your control bar to stabilize the glider.
And/Or crew.
They also extend the height of the control frame...
Not one millimeter higher than it's gonna be extended anyway at some point in the launch sequence - preferably...
13-03110
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3697/13700915564_87a2a336b0_o.png
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2912/13700562685_86575e9220_o.png
14-03129
...a second or two prior to the first step.
...and increase the chances of striking something...
1. Has a wheel striking something on a launch run ever precipitated an incident? I'm guessing that it's a lot more likely that a lot of wheels have PREVENTED launch disasters by rolling and not leaving an exposed basetube or corner to catch and stop.
2. So somebody your hook-in weight but with proportionally shorter legs or an overall shorter person near the lower end of the hook-in weight range without wheels or skids is just as or even more fucked than you are with them.
...and upsetting ground handling of the glider.
1. Big fuckin' deal. It's ground handling.
2. Lotsa people's physical geometry totally sucks with respect to the control frames of the gliders available for their hook-in weights. But they all seem to be able to adjust, handle things, compensate, have pretty good safety records and experiences.
3. So in other words the manufacturers are pushing the design parameter so hard that the amendment of a set of components that no other fixed wing aircraft manufacturer on the planet would dream of not designing in can make one of the two most dangerous phases of flight potentially deadly - whereas NOT amending it makes the other and even more deadly phase of the flight even more deadly.
So we've got these HGFA and DHV specifications whose sole purpose is to make the fuckin' gliders safe to fly. That includes a maximum allowable roll reversal time specification and strength requirements of about six and three Gs positive and negative. But we're highly likely to snap an arm and can easily get quaded or killed on the landing - which, if I recall correctly, is pretty much mandatory for every flight - unless we're able to figure out how to safely rig supplemental equipment to give us a reasonable chance of not power whacking if we can't pull off perfect flare timing with our hands in positions in which we have total shit for control and which totally negate the certified performance and handling specifications.
Yeah dude, get one of our high performance, super safe, certified gliders...
Mike Meier - 1980/03
Mr. Hewett claims that the results of recent international competitions prove the superiority of foreign gliders, but I have a hard time buying that. They are certainly not superior in safety; American designs have a far better safety record. It seems to a number of careful observers that some foreign designs may have a slight advantage (perhaps 2/10's of a point in L/D) in pure performance over some American designs, but if indeed they do I expect that it will not last through the coming model year.
Mr. Hewett's contention that the glider he buys tomorrow will be "inferior to the state of the art simply because the manufacturer has had no opportunity today to observe how the ingenuity of others has paid off, and to incorporate some of these improvements into his own design" is completely ludicrous. There is nothing to prevent American designers from borrowing freely from any successful innovations that show up on any foreign gliders, in fact it happens all the time.
Mr. Hewett's suggestion that "safe but uncertified" gliders be allowed to compete, ignores the problem of how one determines that a glider is safe. I would think that compliance with HGMA airworthiness standards would be a minimum requirement to indicate the safety of a design. I can't think of any simpler set of tests to determine a glider's safety.
In fact all American designers with whom I have discussed the subject have said that the HGMA program, far from stifling their design efforts, has helped them, by providing a source of hard data and a set of standardized testing methods. Mr. Hewett's contention that the USHGA's abandoning of its supports for the HGMA could "eventually save (his) life" seems completely absurd.
Just don't...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...even think about trying to land it. And if you modify it so's you can somewhat safely land it then good freakin' luck launching it.
And if you wanna launch, fly, land it like a sailplane from an airport or flight park, you're on your own 'cause...
Wills Wing makes no warranty of the suitability of the glider for towing.
...we don't design or sell our gliders with the intent that they be towed. Just make sure to always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less, get whatever one of our dealers assures you is quality release that isn't designed to tow anything, and always have the actuator within easy reach so's you'll always be able to easily reach it.
Zack Marzec? Nah, nobody really knows what happened on that one. Maybe try using a Wills Wing glider and a more appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.
If flying XC and landing on a plowed dirt field not only do wheels not work but they increase your chances of having the glider pitch over by snagging in a furrow.
OVER what you'd have with a bare basetube? If a plowed field poses a significant risk to a glider with wheels it poses a significant risk to ANY glider - 'cept, of course, for Jason Boehm who never has and never will blow a landing flare under any circumstances.
Different size and shape wheels cause different adverse issues and have different benefits.
So do different models and sizes of gliders. Damn near EVERYTHING in aeronautical engineering involves some sort of tradeoff. So if you don't have landing gear that can handle plowed fields don't land in plowed fields. Alaskan bush pilots use wheels, skis, floats in accordance with the time of year and/or flight plan. And they're not totally unlimited in their options for flight plans and landing environments - they way we always pretend we are.
Wheels allow pilots to fly and land safely who would otherwise be at risk.
ANY glider not designed or equipped to roll or skid on the available landing surfaces...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26847
Landing Out
NMERider - 2012/08/10 17:09:10 UTC
Be glad you don't fly XC where I do. It really sucks here in the LA Basin and I'm tired of all the hazards.
...puts the pilot at pretty substantial risk.
Several hundred of my lifetime of 1400 hours of flying was done with wheels.
You've got me by about a thousand hours plus a day. But the airtime in this part of the country is a whole lot harder to come by.
I used to do one-man L/D contests and land on a soccer field using drilled out hockey pucks as landing wheels. Never had an issue with them either.
I am no more anti-wheel than I am anti-bicycle helmet or anti-snowboard helmet. You see there is ample statistically valid data to support that helmets are a mixed blessing too by contributing to as many deaths and injuries as they prevent.
You can't make that claim for wheels on gliders. Steve Kinsley got substantially fucked up getting blown off the ramp at High Rock and he WOULD very likely have been able to plant the glider and get things under control without wheels but you can't blame that on the wheels. Gotta chalk that one up to his decision to get onto the ramp in marginal conditions WITHOUT crew and WITH no lockable wheels.
You can't blame the seatbelt if someone get loaded, spins out of control at eighty, and gets delayed too long in trying to escape the flaming wreckage.
There are times that having even little bitty hockey-puck wheels would have saved me a lot of pain.
Including your most recent flight in which a pair of little bitty hockey-puck wheels would've been a really excellent trade for your drag chute.
I have pretty graphic video of landing on a dry lake bed with invisible dust devils popping off all around me.
Post it. You've got a lot of really valuable footage that's going to waste as far as educating the participants of hang gliding and otherwise benefitting the sport is concerned.
Even though I was landing into the prevailing wind a dust devil caused my 4mph head wind to become an 8-10 mph tail wind. Even though I nailed the landing flare and hit the keel just right the dust devil-induced tail wind slammed the glider down on me forcing me to strike my tailbone on the rock-hard dry lake.
Yeah...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Shit happens in the REAL world - and we're flying with procedures and equipment provided and mandated by assholes who've chosen to ignore that issue.
Had I been flying with 5" diameter wheels or even the Wills Wing 4-1/4" offset wheels (that I loathe) I could have easily and safely done a downwind wheel landing.
It's sadly unfortunate that so many pilots go into a near religious fervor either pro-wheel or con-wheel.
Anyone who can be fairly described as con-wheel is an asshole. Someone posts: "Should I use wheels?" You have no clue as to his or her identity and qualifications or the glider, launch, conditions, LZ. The answer is "YES" 'cause it's gonna be right at least 99.9 percent of the time.
I believe this battle has harmed the sport and lead to many avoidable injuries and damaged gliders.
What's harmed the sport fifty times beyond the nearest runners up is forcing/conditioning/brainwashing virtually every new participant to start whipstalling every landing and never stopping under the absurd pretense that he needs to do this to stay safe in the long run.
We are flying aircraft that have very limited control...
Goddam right. And we can't afford to squander one ounce of it by taking any of our hands off the CONTROL BAR for one millisecond of any critical situation. But The Industry bends over backwards to force participants to do just that to the maximum extent possible and convince everyone that it's as safe as a bomb shelter in a twelve mile per hour summer breeze.
...and that give the pilot very little protection.
You need to talk to Dave Hopkins about the best ways to use your glider as a crush zone.
I have seen expensive powered aircraft land with malfunctioning retractable gear and go sliding a quarter mile down an asphalt runway or off onto the grass and then slide on their nose. But in each case the pilot had excellent aerodynamic control...
And:
- his hands and feet on the CONTROLS - big surprise - the whole time
- I'll bet you've never seen anybody whipstall one to keep the sliding distance down to an absolute minimum
...and was encased in a sturdy cockpit. There were no injuries and aircraft damage was minimal. We don't have those luxuries.
We don't have the basics we COULD have because The Industry does everything it possibly can to keep them out of circulation.
Pilots should be given valid and valuable information for all available wheel and non-wheel options.
No. They should be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT trained to use wheels and restricted to extremely wheel friendly environments. And that latter parameter wouldn't be any great burden because about 99.99 percent of hang glider flying is done in extremely wheel friendly environments. After they've gotten solid Threes maybe let them start getting creative. But...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
...you're probably not gonna get all that many takers. Like I said... The ONLY reason Majo wants to start going down the path to foot land hell is 'cause everyone else is on it. (Moo.)
They should not be pressured, insulted or ridiculed but they are and that is inexcusable.
And that ain't coming from the wheel landers and being aimed at the Jason Boehms.
I have seen more collateral damage done in the so-called name of safety than I can count.
That's ENTIRELY because whenever The Industry kills someone with some piece o' crap procedure and/or piece of equipment...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 23:09:12 UTC
Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!
Remember kids, always blame the equipment.
...it blames the dead guy, praises the shit that killed him, lowers or eliminates all the standards that were being violated, and eradicates every thing and every one tainted with quality and integrity so no perpetrator will ever be exposed to anything resembling accountability.
That needs to stop...
That'll stop when we start getting the sleazy motherfuckers running this sport banned from it for life, sued out of existence, and thrown in prisons where they belong for very long times.
...and pilots should be well-informed...
How? By whom? Pigfuckers like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen, Dr. Trisa Tilletti?
...and then allowed to chose freely and without duress.
No.
- We don't allow Hang Zero and One students to buy fifty dollar standards at garage sales and fly them off Kagel in booming conditions. There are LAWS profiting us from flying in LAX airspace and SUPPOSED TO BE prohibiting the SCUM we have flying Dragonflies...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC
I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.
... and running competitions from forcing everybody up on fishing line that regularly pops on...
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/14043200776_4ac99ea901_o.png
...little girls dead center behind the tug in glassy smooth air.
Instead of having sleazy pieces of shit like Davis mandating blatantly illegal fishing line we should be mandating wheels or skids for competition pilots so that no one is penalized for flying with them / rewarded for flying without them. Likewise we should be docking points for competitors who land in shit that requires foot landings.
- When you start informing pilots and allowing them to choose freely I one hundred percent guarantee you that sleazy pieces of shit like Davis and Rooney will be doing one hundred percent of the informing and choosing freely without duress.
Come what may.
It's already here and it's extremely ugly and getting uglier by the month.
Why? He tells us that a one in a thousand crash risk is a hundred times too high and then tells us to use landing procedures and appropriate weak links with finished lengths of 1.5 inches or less that crash gliders every other cycle.
You wanna read something useful from Mike...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...try catching what he says when he thinks the microphone's been switched off.
You and I have both been watching DECADES worth of death and destruction in this sport and untold scores of radioactively controversial postmortem discussions. Quote me some of Mike's of contributions, positions, assessments, recommendations. He moderately fucks himself up trying to top land in a rotor, writes an article stating that if we frequently take big risks we're likely to frequently get fucked up and advising us to perfect our flare timing. And that gets him canonized for all eternity as the Patron Saint of Hang Gliding Safety. Gimme a fuckin' break.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26302
HIGHER EDUCATION ?
michael170 - 2012/06/06 03:14:26 UTC
Did anyone here bother to read Drs. Lisa Colletti and Tracy Tillman's thirteen page idiotic article in the June issue of USHPA's worthless magazine?
NMERider - 2012/06/06 03:25:09 UTC
You are being much too complimentary IMHO. I got so nauseated reading it I had to take a breather. Do you mean to tell me they wrote an article that wasn't insipid and self-congratulatory to the extreme? I've found their entire series on aerotowing to come off rather poorly to say the least. A sad waste of such exalted and highly qualified medical professionals. How do I know this? Well they won't stop patting each other on the back about how great they both are. Pardon me while I puke.
That's the REAL expression of the effect of Mike and Wills Wing. That's one of their schools/dealerships and totally typical.
