landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1123
That's It I Quit... more thoughts from a big sissy...

Glenn Smith - 2008/09/09 20:19:03 UTC
Westchester, California

I fully respect your decision for yourself, and agree with your advice to advanced pilots to reevaluate their level of airworthiness and the glider appropriate for them.

And:
- the inappropriateness of Hang Four rated pilots flying Hang Four rated gliders
- of course, his glaring omission of any mention of wheel landings

That's not being a pussy, it's just smart.

Yeah, it's not like you're a T** at K*** S******.

On flying in general for me, I feel completely different. While I hope we never see another serious accident...

Where? Kunio Yoshimura just ran off of Mingus without his glider ten days ago. Does it only count if it's one of your buddies and only happens in your own backyard?

I know that's not realistic. It could even be me. I'm OK with that. If we as a species stop doing everything dangerous what would we do?

We, as a species, have been evolving - at least until the past hundred years or so - for millions of years to do everything possible to minimize risk. Even the stupid bullshit you're doing now you're doing because you've been brainwashed to THINK...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31557
To Wheel Or Not To Wheel...

NMERider - 2014/07/13 03:17:14 UTC

Pilots should be given valid and valuable information for all available wheel and non-wheel options. They should not be pressured, insulted or ridiculed but they are and that is inexcusable. I have seen more collateral damage done in the so-called name of safety than I can count.

...it's minimizing risk.

I've thought about it a lot, almost every day. I'm not especially brave but, I've decided I'd rather die than not live.

Bullshit.
- When the shit really hits the fan - cancer fer instance - you'd be fuckin' amazed at the quality of life people will desperately cling to.
- People who say they fly because they get something out of the risk elements are liars or morons or, usually, both.

It's that simple. Living includes risk, like it or not. It's just what level each of us is comfortable with.

Tell ya what someone who has his shit together on this reasonably well is comfortable with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs


'Bout the same as playing checkers.

It seems lately that the risk is very high...

The risk of WHAT? Not being able to hit the airport? It doesn't SEEM very high. It IS very high. That's why your not supposed to get a Three signoff before you've demonstrated that you have the ability to hit the airport.

...and we need to seriously look into that...

How are you gonna look seriously into that when the pigfuckers running the show are sitting on the data like they're gods and you're unworthy noxious insects? If I wanna get an inkling of what eyewitnesses report happening I have to go to Joe's place and suck his dick. And I also have to get a time machine so's I can qualify as CURRENT - not non, past, or future - SHGA member. And he's gonna watch me like a hawk so I don't take any pictures of the report with an iPhone and relay accurate first hand information to anybody else.

If you assholes REALLY wanted to do anything useful for hang gliding safety you'd have had that motherfucker's head on a goddam pike yesterday.

...but it was 26 clean years before that with multiple flights every day. If 26 years had 2 fatalities with an average of maybe 10 flights a day, 350 days a year. That's 26*10*350/2 = 1 fatality / 45,500 flights. That's 45 lifetimes of your 1000 flights. Also remember that the number would be much much better if not for the recent tragedies.

And:

- fuck everybody:

-- outside of LA County

-- who hasn't actually died, maybe just broken an arm, gotten permanent nerve damage, quietly disappeared from the sport

- ignore:

-- the unhooked launchers who've just been beaten up

-- other guys who've made marginally controlled ditches in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and lucked out on not slamming into boulders head first

The important question for me is: were these accidents just a coincidence or has something changed in the LZ we are missing?

1. What do you think about that, Joe? Not even gonna give us a hint about something that vague?

2. Yeah. Something has changed in the Kagel primary. All the sudden the air is behaving in an inexplicable manner unlike anything ever observed anywhere else on the planet. Made Jeff pile in a couple hundred yards short and tossed Richard out of the LZ and clear across to the houses on the other side of the street. Joe's under a gag order 'cause the CIA guys are trying to figure out a way to weaponize it.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Gayle, in fact I agree with almost everything your said. What risk you are comfortable with is entirely your calculation, and it's personal and unassailable.

These guys didn't die because they were taking risks. They died because they FUCKED UP. And I one hundred percent guarantee you that if you beamed me into and them out of their positions at two hundred feet at those times on the same gliders minus wheels I could've parked on the putting green with a bent downtube AT WORST.

We each will have to decide for ourselves.

You guys don't got enough in the way of brains to be making decisions for yourselves.

Like you I hope our pilots will reflect on the seriousness of this endeavor and fly appropriately.

Try to figure out what appropriately IS first.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1123
That's It I Quit... more thoughts from a big sissy...

George Stebbins - 2008/09/09 21:11:32 UTC
Palmdale

Wow. Gayle and I don't agree on much, but we sure agree on this stuff.

While his choice to quit isn't mine, I certainly understand it. But it is a very personal thing, as stated previously.

On the other hand, all the comments about safety are pretty much right on. We aren't all as safe as we like to think.

Speak for yourself.

Yes, some are safer than others, but the instant you start thinking that safer means safe, you are at bigger risk. The ground is hard. Landings are hard.

Doesn't matter whether you're coming in upright for foot or prone for wheels. They're all hard and equally hard and dangerous.

We need to get better at them.

You're all assholes, George. Don't bother.

The only way to get better is to practice a lot with the right feedback (instructor, video, etc.) Flying slowly near the ground is risky. Flying impaired (sick, tired, hung-over, under the influence) is risky. Etc. All that said, there is still some risk of dying no matter how safe you are. So let's lower that risk as much as possible.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=7453
60-Year-Old Man Killed In Hang-Gliding Accident - CBS 2

NMERider - 2008/06/22 16:52:22 UTC

From Windsports:

Yesterday's flying weather brought tragedy to our l/z with the first hang gliding fatality in Los Angeles county in the past twenty one years. SHGA pilot and friend Richard Seymour was unable to prevent getting turned downwind in the turbulence he entered on final approach to the l/z.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Get fucked, George.

If Gayle and I can agree on something, that's a pretty good indicator that it is at least approximately true.

Please fly safely my friends.

See above.

Janyce Collins - 2008/09/10 00:16:45 UTC

i'm posting too much, i know it. i promise to absolutely shut up once i can fly again.

anyway, i just wanted to respond to something you said gayle. you said that no one goes out and says, "i'm going to be reckless today," but, by the same token, you never hear anyone say, "I'm going to do an absolutely precise, focused, attentive approach and landing for 9s today," either. if more of us thought that way, less of us would be sitting here posting instead of flying...

Bullshit. Every last one of you traffic cone junkies says that. You're all scared and you're all totally focused on nailing that flare timing...



...to the exclusion of everything else.

JT - 2008/09/10 05:20:48 UTC

Janyce: You may never hear anyone say it but I'd venture a guess that, as I do, nearly everyone thinks it sometime after launch.

We're flying GLIDERS. We all know that we're only gonna get one shot and the timing, to some extent or other, is gonna be forced on us. We're all thinking about it all the time.

I visualize my approach every day I fly and sometimes when I'm driving down the 405 (and you thought flying was scary).

Goddam right.

That isn't to say that I get it right every time. I don't but I keep trying to make the markers of a good launch and landing second nature.

If launch and landing isn't on your mind when you're near your glider, you're an idiot and a fool.

Bit redundant but... yeah. Add launching unhooked.

On Gayle's quitting: I agree that having friends die is depressing; I'd venture I've experienced more than many of you, in and out of this sport. But would I stop driving, if my friends were killed in a car accident? I had a friend die in his sleep when I was 10. I didn't stop making friends or going to sleep. I think it's a matter of degree, what we perceive as a "normal" way to die.

Gayle is correct that, no one should fool themselves into thinking that they are safe while flying.

Everybody's safe FLYING. It's those two transitional periods that are the bitches.

No matter what skills and experience, there is still the matter of that bubble of air around us. It doesn't care that changes may adversely affect whatever creature is within. We can only mitigate the effects, although, sometimes, they are overwhelming.

Where should our hands be to give us the best shots at mitigation?

Mistakes are not just unforgiven, they are irrelevant to the medium we navigate.

However, my feeling is that one lives with the risk of death every moment that one is breathing. I choose not to be ruled by "what if?"

Really? I'm CONSTANTLY doing "What if?" when I'm launching, flying, landing, designing, engineering. How can one possibly go wrong doing "What if?" Name me one good what-iffer who's ever launched unhooked.

I find that fear too scary.

It's only scary if you think that Jeff and Richard were doing everything in the ballpark of right and got killed anyway. Not even fuckin' close. There was NOTHING going on with the air when Jeff came up way short and bought it and what we were privileged to hear about Richard was "turbulence". Turbulence kicks you around a bit and maybe smacks you in and trashes a downtube or two. It DOESN'T take you out of the LZ and throw you into the houses across the street.

Joe's pretense for suppressing Richard's report is that he doesn't wanna burden the family with the extra pain. Translation: RICHARD FUCKED UP.

"DUDE! There was this MONSTER DUST DEVIL that just suddenly came out of nowhere! Richard was doing everything right but, really, he never stood a chance. None of us would have. That thing damn near sent the fuckin' gazebo across the street as well!"

Isn't that what the family would've wanted to hear and have broadcast far and wide if there'd been a glimmer of truth to it?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1123
That's It I Quit... more thoughts from a big sissy...

Janyce Collins - 2008/09/10 16:21:12 UTC

Jim, i agree with everything you've said, and i'm not talking about the elite moyes boys here--it's clear to me that you all think very clearly about all features of your flights.

but i think, sometimes, those of us with less experience put more of our focus into FLYING than LANDING. How else can you explain coming in too high?

Being taught to aim for the traffic cone in the middle of the field rather than to conserve runway.

...too low...

Delusions of grandeur...

...and still trying to carry out the "normal" approach pattern?

What IS your "normal" approach pattern? In my "normal" approach pattern there's no such thing as too high 'cause it's a helluva lot easier to get a glider to go lower than it is to get it to go higher and I don't get too low until I'm in the field and it doesn't matter.

too slowly?

Two slowly? What's that? The worst that could happen would be a stall and those are no big fuckin' deals.

...missing our spots?

Fuck your spots. If you've got spots I don't give a rat's ass what happens to you.

...not seeing the other guy who's landing until you are both staging?

Generally takes two total fucking idiots to make that happen.

all of these problems indicate a kind of laxity in flexibility, focus...

Pick one. You can't have flexibility AND focus.

...problem solving, pre-planning...

This ain't exactly rocket science, ya know.

...and precision.

You're trying to put a goddam glider in a goddam FIELD. Just how much PRECISION do you need?

the equivalent in driving a car means an accident or, at the very least, a lot of cursing, horn honking, and flipping off.

Do me a favor and lose the car analogy. Hard to come up with something less relevant to a glider approach and landing.

i'm guilty of some of these mistakes and i've had months to think about how/why i made them and, i don't know if anyone else out there is as foolish and/or idiotic as i am...

This is hang gliding. You're on pretty solid ground - relatively speaking.

...but i know that most of my bad landings can be attributed to "letting down" before i've actually landed and unhooked. "This flight's over. God I have to pee and wasn't that thermal gnarly!," before I'm even on the ground, the result of having placed so much muscle, energy, thought (and joy) into interpreting the invisible medium we thermal in, that by the time i'm landing, there's not much left to work with.

Try remembering that that's your best opportunity to get killed.

i know now that landings require every bit as much attention as the rest of the flight and i have to budget accordingly. many of you are probably saying, in your most sarcastic voice, "DUH!!!"

Yeah, they undoubtedly are. If they WEREN'T total morons, however, they'd be saying, "LANDINGS require every bit AS MUCH attention as the rest of the flight?! UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE!!! What's the gravity like on your home planet?"

but look at how many pilots mess up!

PILOTS tend not to mess up much.

how focused and precision-oriented can they be?

Pretty much totally, I'm guessing. My take is focus and precision-orientation was exactly what got Jeff and Richard killed.

look at how many people say, "Well, I landed on my feet! So, it was a good landing." When it wasn't.

By definition.

It was too slow, or a sloppy approach.

Or it looked exactly like THIS:

http://vimeo.com/4945693


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14082628227_f96a81b821_o.png

Whatever led up to it it's still bullshit.

They just happened to be lucky, this time.

All your landings just happen to be luck - all the time. You have virtually no interest in doing safe ones.

I think some of us just get too complacent...

If some of you are just getting too complacent about landings... GOOD. The gene pool needs all the help it can get.

We really need to step back and reflect on our ability and skills.

You really need to step back, reflect on all this drivel, and try to get on track about people totally missing the fuckin' LZ.

What do we need to improve?

Maybe some instruction that doesn't totally suck?

How to set about doing it, whom to watch and pattern ourselves after...

28-11505
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4231/34683464104_88bfcfd2b1_o.png

...whom to ask for advice.

Not happy with Joe Greblo and Rob McKenzie then?

Just because you have a particular rating or have been flying for a number of years doesn't mean you can't improve.

It should. For shit that actually matters you shouldn't be able to do much improving after scoring a Three.

Look at Olympians, they're driven to become better at what they do.

Fuck the Olympians. This sport is choked enough with testosterone poisoned egomaniacal pathological pecker measurers as it is. There's nothing that makes me happier than to watch them driving themselves into the ground while they're becoming better at what they do.

A silver medal isn't good enough.

A Playdough medal would've been plenty good enough to get those two guys safely down in that LZ. That's what it's designed and geared for.

It's that kind of mastery that we should all be seeking because anything less might KILL us!

Bull fucking shit. What you should all be seeking is proficiency in Hang 2.5 level basics.

That's why I think it's really important to have friends look at / judge our approaches and landings.

That hasn't been happening constantly anyway? How else would you explain those two guys getting killed?

(Solicited, mind you.) The last thing anyone wants is to have someone you never even see fly going on and on about your landing. You have to talk to pilots whose skills you respect.

1. You related to Brian Horgan? Sister? Spouse? Both?

2. Yeah, the last thing anyone wants to hear is somebody not telling him what he wants to hear.

3. And if you've never even seen someone flying you should ignore everything he has to say. None of it could POSSIBLY have an validity.

4. I'm not your friend, I'd think even more about slashing my wrists than I do now if I had your respect, I see you do something stupid I'm gonna say something - not 'cause I wanna prevent something bad happening to you but 'cause:
- somebody I might give a rat's ass about might pick up something useful
- I so do love toldyasos.

Something to think about anyway, before you spend half a year recovering from a stupid mistake...IF you're that lucky...

You go fuck yourself, Janyce. You assholes deserve every last milligram of everything you get. It sickens me that comments like yours are tolerated inside of a hang gliding organization.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1123
That's It I Quit... more thoughts from a big sissy...

Jeff Bjorck - 2008/09/10 16:52:34 UTC

Dr. Jeff here. I just want to affirm Gayle's question above. We need to learn from the details of any mistakes, even if they involve tragedy.

ESPECIALLY when they involve tragedy. Shit happens at altitude, some asshole launches unhooked at Dockweiler, nobody even blinks. You need to kill somebody, preferably somebody real popular, to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a conversation going.

For example, I saw one post that claimed Jeff came in at 30 mph with no deceleration, which does at least make you want to know the outcome of the coroner's report (heart attack?).

1. Who's dick did you hafta suck to earn a glance at a report?

2. Heart attack my ass.

3. Who really gives a rat's ass? How many of you assholes really need to understand why a guy came up a couple hundred yards shy of the LZ and flew head first into a boulder at thirty miles per hour so you can make sure you don't come up a couple hundred yards shy of the LZ and fly head first into a boulder at thirty miles per hour?

Everyone knows that I don't get to fly that much, but that actually keeps me thinking hard about my landings and launches all the way up the hill.

And then after you get up the hill you stop? Guess that covers hook-in checks as well.

In addition, I have been fortunate enough to have Greblo see many of my landings.

You mean the Greblo who witnessed the Richard Seymour crash and won't say shit about it?

Whenever he sees one, I ask him about it! And yes, he will say more than a few words in response, but I have greatly benefited from his analysis and I am a better pilot because of it.

Great! Bet you're really nailing that traffic cone now! That's so much more important than any details on how turbulence turned Richard around downwind and smashed him into the houses across the street from the LZ.

I do hope we have the accident reports posted here so we can all learn from these tragedies.

And I'm hoping I'll be able to establish and Ivory-Billed Woodpecker colony in my backyard sometime within the next couple of breeding seasons.

Gayle said that the more you fly, the stupider you get.

Seems to be working well for Janyce. Hard to believe she was that stupid when she started out.

I would paraphrase that and say, "The more you stop viewing each flight as an important educational training exercise, the less you learn and the stupider you get."

Do you want your airline pilot to be viewing your flight as an important educational training exercise? Or would you rather that he already have his shit together before you board?

And, on one related tangent, consider NOT riding up the hill in the back of a pick-up. Why bother with safety at all while flying if you are willing to risk being thrown out of a truck at 65mph?

Why bother proning out and putting your hands in optimal control position for thermalling thousands of feet above all of the hard stuff when you're gonna go upright and position your hands where you have total shit for control during the most critical/dangerous five seconds of the flight?

Fly safe, high, far, and keep learning!

If you haven't yet learned everything you need to at this point then find another fuckin' hobby. Name ONE of you Grebloville assholes who's been able to grasp the concept of a hook-in check just prior to launch.

Peace,
Jeff

Rest in peace, other Jeff and Richard, knowing that the secrets of your deaths will forever be guarded by Joe Greblo and Tim Herr.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://shga.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1123
That's It I Quit... more thoughts from a big sissy...

George Stebbins - 2008/09/11 19:36:24 UTC

A couple of comments:

Any comments on that moronic vile crap that Janyce wrote?

Landing focus: There is an issue with mid level pilots that most folks don't quite understand. When you are a beginner, everything is new, so you focus on each thing you are doing as much as you can with limited experience. As you learn, you find that some of the stuff becomes "automatic". In one way, that's good, because it frees up limited mental/emotional/attentional resources for other things (like getting up, avoiding traffic, etc.) But the stuff that is "automatic" is only automatic in the most basic sense. As long as nothing changes, you do your approach the same and all is fine. That DOES give you time to watch for that guy who just sneaked in below you from locals. However, if there is something different about your approach or whatever, then you have an issue. (Eamples: you are a bit low/high, the sink/lift is stronger than anticipated, more cross-wind, extra turbulence, bladder full, etc..) You might be stuck in "habit" mode, letting the auto-pilot do the approach. It takes a LOT more practice to get to the point where you can switch from autopilot and back quickly and handle a bunch of distractions all at the same time. Practice that comes only with flying. Practice that comes only with doing more landings. I'm not sure I'm explaining this well, but in my opinion this kind of ability is the REAL reason someone should get a H4. If they aren't able to handle changes in circumstances like this, then they aren't ready. But then, I'm a cautious kind of guy who wants his friends to live forever and keep flying just as long. The key thing to remember is that you can do your approach on automatic, but if you do it that way all the time, you will eventually regret it. There is only so much mental attention each of us can handle at one time. Use it wisely. Don't worry about if you are going to land 50 feet short or long, if there are two other gliders landing with you. Don't worry about landing in the bushes if the alternative is landing in the rocks. Prioritize consciously, and let the autopilot handle the lower priority tasks. Top pilots have better autopilots AND are able to handle more things consciously also. But these are skills that CAN be learned, and they can improve your odds of safe flight quite a bit. But you have to make yourself do it, because once something is in the autopilot, it is hard to change it without deliberate effort. The good news is that because this is a mental skill, you can do some of the work while you aren't even flying. That gives you a chance to improve even while grounded!

Go back to grade school, learn what a PARAGRAPH is, then see if you can figure out how to express yourself without giving the reader a terminal migraine. One glance at that crap is plenty more than I need to tell that there couldn't possibly be any content worth commenting on.

Accident reports: I agree with the posts above. I'd love to see them. However, when there is a fatality, there are often privacy issues that are different than when the pilot can be there to approve information release. Families don't always make the same decisions about that stuff as pilots. The Coroner (or other govt. folks) often don't either. Sometimes things just take longer. But, if we can get this information, I think it would be very helpful to all of us. I'm willing to wait if that's necessary for correct information (Autopsy, etc.). If it isn't necessary, then sooner is better.

Bullshit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

Gayle Ellett - 2009/03/31 17:34:32 UTC

I was looking for the Accident Reports for the two fatalities we had in the LZ last year (2008), but I could not find them.

That's probably 'cause they never actually happened. You probably just imagined them.

Jeff and Richard were great guys and good friends of mine.
Information is always helpful!!!!

To whom? The student and recreational pilots? Or the assholes running the shows?

Does anyone know where they are?

Don't you think that if the Mayor of Grebloville wanted you to have this information you'd have had it already?

I also never saw anything about it in the national glossy magazine.

It was probably there you were probably just blinded by the gloss. USHGA gets real good deals by purchasing gloss by the boxcar load so they can use it very generously in their magazine.

Many Thanks!
Gayle

Donald Banas - 2009/03/31 17:41:09 UTC

I can't help on Richard's.

Jeff's will probably be in the USHPA in the next month or two.

Or three, four, whatever. It takes a lot of time to do these things right. Best not rush things too much.

Ken Andrews asked me to review/edit/fill-in-the-blanks it a couple weeks ago.

Did you have any blanks left over? Maybe we could get a glance at some of those.

NMERider - 2009/03/31 20:46:53 UTC

Please read Tom Cornelius' eye witness account of Jeff's crash:

http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/20080829/1550#comment-1912

OK. Cool! Thanks!

Page Not Found

Oops. Looks like they moved it to some place more important. Anybody got a link?

George Stebbins - 2009/03/31 21:08:09 UTC

I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Joe Greblo had sent in one to the USHPA* and the SHGA. If not, I'd take this opportunity to ask him and anyone else who was a witness to do so. (I'd also like to thank anyone who did one!) These things are tough...

And tougher with each passing year.

I know, especially the fatal ones.

Especially the fatal ones.

But they do help. Not as much as we'd like, of course, but even a little bit of improved safety is better than none.

Tell us just how much the Quest and USHGA reports on the Zack Marzec fatal one helped...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9945
Launched unhooked

George Stebbins - 2007/10/26 16:05:20 UTC

The weak link is NOT there to prevent the glider from being overstressed on tow. OK, it serves that function too, but its main purpose is to release if you get too far off-line or some other issue causes the forces to become stronger than you, the pilot, can control. The forces become too strong for the pilot to overcome LONG BEFORE the glider gets overstressed. Does the weak link always do its job? Nope. On the other hand, making it too weak is a danger too. The key is to minimize risks. A reasonable weak link does that. It will seldom (but not never) break when it shouldn't. It will usually (but not always) break when it should. Different forms of towing use different strengths. And tandems need stronger ones regardless, because the tow forces are higher.

There are some folks who tow with very strong weak links. They are asking for trouble, IMO.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12512
Weak Links

George Stebbins - 2008/07/13 21:01:44 UTC

I've always been happy with the Quest Air links, and only once did one break when it annoyed me seriously, and for no apparent reason. (Just as I crossed the treeline. I had to whip a 180 before I ran out of altitude to do so. Then I had an interesting landing, not really having room to turn back into the wind...)

I've had enough links break when they should to think mine is ok...

...asshole.

I've been missing Richard lately. Don't know why. But I've seen at least three people out of the corner of my eye that I thought were him before I remembered.

Are you really quite sure they weren't Richard? From the reports we've had to date it's not entirely clear that anything actually happened to him. Maybe he just made a low save and went XC and everyone just ASSUMED he got killed crashing into the houses across the street.

Fly safe, my friends.

Fuck your friends.

* And I know it takes USHPA a while to get them in the magazine sometimes.

Yeah, they hafta print a special section using less gloss. It's a real pain.

Janyce Collins - 2009/04/09 05:00:10 UTC

awesome!! i hope this means you are not quitting, after all!!!
see you on launch!

Gayle Ellett - 62269 - H4 - 1996/02/10 - Joe Greblo - AT AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - Expired: 2010/08/31

Joe Greblo - 2009/04/11 15:16:54 UTC

Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA.

Why didn't you just shred them at home and save the price of the stamps?

I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files.

In the vault and under twenty-four hour guard.

I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident...

That must be why we haven't heard anything yet. It's a real bitch to compile all that stuff.

I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.

Fuck you, fuck any current club member, and fuck the families.

This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators.

Yeah, we really need to start making sure we have professional hang glider accident investigators on hand when these guys slam in. Otherwise the information we get is so questionable that it can only be viewed by current SHGA members in your presence and not published out of deference to the families. Lemme know when you graduate up to total sleazy piece o' shit.

These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.

Often include accounts of engine failure, wing shear, black holes, time warps, aliens, zombies, vampires, elves, gremlins, eskimos. So obviously they can only be viewed by current SHGA members in your presence and not published out of deference to the families.

The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends.

Yeah, that's what they're doing. They're trying to educate pilots. They found that the monthly detailed reports we used to get from Robert V. Wills and Doug Hildreth were counterproductive. People were confusing the causes and recommendations. It was a real bloodbath. So now we just let current SHGA members view first hand reports in your presence and not publish them out of deference to the families and only publish summaries of reports of accidents witnessed by USHGA certified professional accident investigators - like Paul Tjaden.

I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.

You don't think the accident reports they will be published out of deference to the families, you don't know a summary covering Richard's or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding magazine, and you're ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that no reports of any kind will appear on the SHGA forum - or any other online rag. I SO hope I get to see a video of you roasting in the powerlines some day soon. Failing that - anybody who will have anything to do with you.

Janyce Collins - 2009/04/13 04:57:07 UTC

thank-you joe, i hope they don't, out of deference to the pilots themselves.

Extra good blow job tonight, Joe.

i think it's way better to acknowledge that some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing got them, and move on.

So do I. Anything that ups the the chances of any of you Grebloville pieces of shit slamming in has got my backing to an extent you can't even begin to imagine.

it's jeff's sweet nature, sense of humor, and kindness that I want to remember, and richard's acerbic wit and general appreciation of life's absurdities--knowing how they died won't help me become a better pilot (or spectator)...

Oh please don't be a spectator. Fly as much and often as you POSSIBLY can. Any time you're suited up and standing under a glider at launch there's hope that something good will happen - something resulting in a report that can only viewed by current SHGA members in the the presence of another current SHGA member and not be published out of deference to the the pieces of shit who constitute your family. Unhooked launch, harmless stall back into the slope, midair with some other SHGA piece of shit (OP would work nicely), some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing. Anything.

...but knowing that they died, will. i miss them both, often...

Knowing that apparently they were on speaking terms with you...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

George Stebbins - 2009/04/13 16:56:26 UTC

I can understand the desire not to publish out of deference to the pilots (and even more to their families.)

Their PRECIOUS FAMILIES!!! Think of THE CHILDREN!!!

If there is some way for PILOTS to get that info but nobody else, that's great.

Even PILOTS who AREN'T current SHGA members?! Are you OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND, George? Former SHGA members? Future SHGA members? Crestliners? NORTHERN California pilots? Arizona? Nevada? PARAGLIDER pilots? Where does it end? Think of the FAMILIES! The CHILDREN!!!

But, pilots need to see it.

Yeah, just pilots. Good red blooded American heterosexual pilots. Certainly don't want anybody else finding out about the sorts of things that get gliders crashed and killed.

Some of them learn things that keep them safer.

Fuck that, George. Just acknowledge that some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing got them, and move on.

Janyce Collins - 2009/04/13 04:57:07 UTC

i think it's way better to acknowledge that some gnarly feature of the the MONSTER called landing got them, and move on.

The statement above by Janyce is counterproductive...

That cunt needs to have her card shredded and be staked to an anthill - immediately if not sooner.

...and implies something contrary to the facts.

WHAT *FACTS*? The only FACT we have is that the way the reporting is being handled on these two is a total obscenity.

While there are (very occasional) times when nothing the pilot could do would have avoided or solved the issue (short of not flying at all*)...

Name one.

...usually there is something that could have been done.

Like landing in the LZ, ferinstance.

Anybody who thinks otherwise increases their odds of future accidents.

Good. Try to make them fatal if at all possible.

There are resons that some people crash more often than others, and luck is very low on that list.

Lessee...
- Aussie Methodists / hook-in checkers
- Rooney Linkers / Tad-O-Linkers
- pro toads / two pointers
- easy reachers / tooth-lockers
- pin benders / straight pinners
- downtubers / basetubers
- flare timers / rollers
- narrow-dry-riverbed-with-large-rocks-strewn-all-over-the-placers / putting greeners

Does anyone in their right mind think that the reason Rob McKenzie has had over 6,000 safe flights in a row is luck?

Yeah. That's the motherfucker's stated strategy for launching while connected to his glider.

Or that the reason that Ludwig crashed so often was luck?

Ludwig Von Der Luhe - 35455 - H4 - 1985/04/20 - Wayne Moser - FL TFL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR

?

Or that the MONSTER likes Rob and hates Ludwig?

I wasn't there for either accident, and haven't read the accident reports, only talked to a witness of one of them.

Make sure you don't relay anything from what you recall of that conversation.

I don't know which category those accidents fall into...

The sometimes-shit-just-happens category.

...(although I have an opinion, but that's all it is.)

Let us hear it, George. THEORY is of no value whatsoever in hang gliding... Take away opinion and what do we have left? Dice?

So please don't think I'm claiming I know what caused those particular accidents - I don't.

No, it's considered EXTREMELY poor form to know what caused a particular accident in hang gliding. It took Industry Standards Expert Martin Henry four months to determine that Jonathan Orders neglected to hook Lenami Godinez-Avila into his glider before launching off Mount Woodside on 2012/04/28. And who the fuck are you?

But I can say with certainty that each and every time I've had a bad landing, an injury, or even "pulled it off", that there was something to be learned by me and others. Sometimes a small thing, sometimes a large one, but there was always something.

Give us an example - something that wasn't obvious common sense and hadn't appeared in print five thousand times prior to the incident.

The same can be said for almost every crash I've witnessed over 25 years, as well as most non-crashes that got "pulled off".

Almost?

Shutting your eyes to that kind of information makes you more likely to be the next victim than if you paid attention to it.

What about having your head up your ass? Would that be an acceptable alternative?

I'd hate it if that happened.

It's been unassailable hang gliding policy since the early Eighties.

* And of course, sometimes not flying at all is the right thing too. Been there. Done that. Drove down the hill.

Well obviously that would've been the right call for 2008/06/21. The turbulence was so severe that it tossed a glider out of the LZ and threw him to his death into the houses across the street.

Janyce Collins - 2009/04/14 01:06:23 UTC

ok then, publish away! discuss in minute details the bad decisions made.

i apologize for wanting to protect my friends.

I guess the only friends you have are dead ones and you apparently think they'll be even more irretrievably dead if anyone discusses in minute details - or broad general terms - what got them killed to the extent that they were.

And how astute of you to realize that neither of these guys would've wanted any of THEIR friends - all of which would most certainly also be YOUR friends - to learn anything about what went wrong and what they'd have done differently. If they'd have gotten off with wrecked gliders and three or four days in the hospital no fuckin' way would they have posted anything with shouldn't haves / should'ves in it.

just the facts, ma'am!

OK. You're SCUM.

George Stebbins - 2009/04/14 15:11:57 UTC

I also want to protect my friends. I just think it is more important to protect people's lives than people's memory*. I prefer to protect the living. If I can do both, that's even better. But given a choice, the answer is clear to me.

You may disagree. That is, of course, your perogative. And you have a right to that opinion, or any other.

Who says? I personally feel that an asshole like this has ZERO place in ANY flavor of aviation - 'specially a proclaimed self regulated one. I don't feel like going through the current swamp of USHGA SOPs but if I recall correctly there at least WERE mandatory reporting regulations for instructors and the penalty for violation was revocation of certification. I see no problem with extending that to all rated pilots.

I'm glad to see that you are flying again.

Me too. Probably not for the same reasons though.

* I only knew Jeff a little bit, but Richard was a friend. I understand wanting to protect their memories...

False, incomplete memories?

- Maybe Jeffard couldn't control his glider 'cause he was half drunk and had pulled a shoulder muscle beating his wife and kid that morning. Does he get to be a saint now 'cause he killed himself in the vicinity of the Kagel LZ?

- Or maybe he got killed 'cause he got a hand snagged on a tailwire - and that's a VERY REAL and STRONG possibility which, as I look more and more closely at more and more videos is emerging as a common, serious, major issue for damn near all footlanders. Then wouldn't we tend to be thinking of him more sympathetically and as better than just another pooch screwer?

...and even more the feelings of their families.

But if they died due to mistakes or poor choices (no matter how minor), I believe they'd want their friends to learn from those mistakes.

And if they didn't, fuck 'em.

If I ever die in a crash...

...hopefully as a consequence of the inconvenience of a Quest Link increasing the safety of the towing operation...

...I hope people look at what happened coldly, dispassionately, logically, and clearly. I hope they use my mistake(s) as a teaching tool to reduce the chance of someone else having the same problem.

Yeah, but you're not one of Janyce's FRIENDS.

Fly safely, my friends.

And T** at K*** S******... Go fuck yourself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

Christian Williams - 2009/04/14 20:11:34 UTC
Pacific Palisades

Joe, you need to publish the reports on the forum.

It wasn't totally obvious from that pathetic moronic infuriating disingenuous, transparent Rooneyesque crap he posted that he's no way in hell gonna allow any reports to be publicly accessible?

They do not need names or speculation.

Perish the thought that any accident report should be tainted with the slightest trace of anything resembling the obscenity of speculation.

They are most useful because they tell what happened, with the addition of potential contributing factors.

What happened is obvious and fully understood. That's precisely why Joe and USHGA are bending over backwards to suppress the information to the maximum extent possible.

Contributing factors that might cause pain to survivors can be left out.

Like when a family member dies of cancer. It's vitally important that no information about likely and possible causes, effective and ineffective drugs for treatment of the disease and mitigation of the symptoms, care strategy ever be discussed by anyone because that stuff will all cause unimaginable pain to the family members.

I don't believe that includes observations about technique, conditions, or comparison of accident pilot behavior to generally accepted standard practice.

Remember back in the eras of Robert V. Wills and Doug Hildreth when we were publishing extensive highly detailed reports in every issue? Names, ages, ratings, experience, glider models and sizes, dates, times, sky covers, wind strengths and directions, gust factors, release types, actuator locations, flight paths, impact angles, most likely scenarios...? What WERE we THINKING?! I shudder to think of all the unnecessary pain we must've inflicted on those families! And R.V. Wills ferchrisake! TWO of his sons killed in glider crashes! You'd have thunk he - if ANYONE - would've had better sensitivity than that. Just think of just the pain he must've needlessly and cruelly inflicted on himself!

Without a written accident report, rumor and misinformation and assumptions are likely to cause more trouble than a straight, public accounting of what witnesses saw happen.

You don't think that's PRECISELY what that pigfucker wants? How long do you think he's been playing this game.

In five years, such a public report will be the only reliable, contemporaneous story of the incident. Everything else will be hearsay and rusting memory.

Bull's-eye. Mission fuckin' accomplished.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

Lisa Wendt - 2009/04/16 21:46:57 UTC
Chatsworth, California

Back in the day, the national publication used to publish each report as written and submitted, not in summary form is as done today.

Today? Today "accident" reporting of any pretense of a form is by any practical definition totally extinct.

Apparently they thought it useful to do so at the time.

It was. In very different ways for two very different groups of people.

- The one or two percent of the recreational flyers with IQs in the upper double digits or better were able to see patterns and vulnerabilities and become smarter, safer better pilots. To the rest of the recreational flyers, however, it was just then what substantive reports in web discussions are today - strange and meaningless black figures on light backgrounds.

- For the instructors, schools, dealers, flight parks, rating officials, directors... It was extremely useful in learning how to obscure solid information, shield themselves from accountability, institutionalize shoddy practices and equipment, crush innovation and reform the instants of any rearing of their ugly heads. If people are getting mangled dying because of:

- absence of hook-in check training start teaching that hook-in checks give false senses of security

- blown sidewires tell everybody not to preload their sidewires because that's likely to blow their sidewires

- upright flying positions teach upright flying positions more intensively and aggressively and force students into upright only training harnesses up through their first mountain flights

- frayed towlines install the equivalent of a critically frayed towline for every flight and tell people it's the only thing keeping them safe

- inaccessible releases teach people that:
-- accessible releases don't work 'cause if they did everyone would be using them
-- inaccessible releases are much safer and more reliable 'cause everyone uses them and they have really long track records
-- the only people who die because of inaccessible releases are the ones who:
--- just freeze
--- make no effort to release
--- think they can fix bad things and don't want to start over

- overall shitty instructors issue the overall shittiest instructors Instructor of the Year certificates

Should be pretty fuckin' obvious that every ounce of institutionalized shoddiness, stupidity, insanity, sleaziness we see welded into the sport today can trace its origins to the excellent reporting we had in the first couple decades of our history.

Lisa Wendt - Chatsworth - 64645 - 2014/09/30 - H4 - 2002/08/21 - Joe Greblo - AT FL RLF TUR XC

I'd hafta burn my card. Start from scratch with Larry West.

Fred Ballard - 2009/04/16 22:51:33 UTC

When you submit an accident report to USHPA there is an online form for this. It is a fairly comprehensive report form although it is easy to use. I used it when I submitted a report for Jeff. The problem is that when you click the send button, you no longer have access to the report.

Joe Greblo found this out the hard way when he submitted Richard's report. USHPA will not give you a copy even though you are the person submitting the report. I know this because I was trying to get a copy of the report for club records so I called USHPA and they would not bend their rules on this. It is important that if you wish to have a copy that you print it out before submitting it. This may have changed but was definitely the program when Joe submitted his for Richard.

Well duh. You think USHGA wants any additional chance of firsthand, unredacted, unedited, unsanitized crash data circulating in public?

George Stebbins - 2009/04/17 15:57:14 UTC

When I submitted one a while back, I wrote in in a separate document and then cut and pasted into their form. That way I had a copy.

I didn't do it because I was smart, or knew they'd keep it. I did it that way because I was editing as I went. I just got lucky. But, if you do want a copy, that's the way to go.

Whenever anybody mildly bonks a landing or drops a control bar there will invariably be twenty expert eyewitnesses who will all be in perfect unanimous harmonious agreement as to what the mistakes were:
- wing rolled a quarter degree to the left
- flare timing a tenth of a second too late
- hands two inches too low on the downtubes
- legs three inches too far forward

The more severe and obvious the mistakes, problems, errors, stupidity, negligence, incompetence and the more life altering or lethal the consequences, the:
- less anybody will have the slightest fuckin' clue about any element
- more viciously anyone who proffers a sane, rational, obvious analysis will be gang-raped

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?

Joe Greblo - 2009/04/11 15:16:54 UTC

Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA. I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files. I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident, I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.

This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators. These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.

The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends. I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.

I guess out of deference to the families...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1030
Fatality at Sylmar Today?

Roz - 2008/06/23 18:16:35 UTC

I was just a visiting pilot from SLC, but happened to be in the LZ with my video camera. I caught all but the impact (thankfully), and was one of the first on the scene. I just want to stress that we only get one chance to land, so everything must be premeditated and carefully planned, especially on hot rowdy days such as Saturday. So to everyone returning to Earth, keep that bar in, speed is safety, and into the wind. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

...we shouldn't watch the video either. Roz obviously isn't a professional accident investigator, just another pilot. So the content might include his personal opinion of why the accident happened and it might not necessarily hold true.