http://ozreport.com/8.1331994/10/29 - Gerry Smith - 56 - extensive, USHGA #216, Advanced, "flying for 20 years"
- UP Comet 165 - Sand Dollar Beach, Big Sur
- internal, head, face, hip, arm
Rich Collins:
At about seventy feet he decided to land and began his regular approach. I know this approach well, because after seeing him perform consistently good landings I adopted it as my own. First, you climb to the upright position at about seventy feet on your base leg, with a slight turn toward final so as not to be bumped downwind. Second you turn your glider into the wind and begin final approach. Third, you pull in the bar. I know Gerry pulled in the bar because I saw him do it. Granted, you can't pull it in very far but he did pull in.
It was right about there, at about 50' AGL that his nose pitched up hard, but there was no gain of altitude as with the other pilots. It looked very strange, almost as if it had gusted from behind. The glider pitched nose down and began to fall. It was still moving at the same ground speed but was obviously not flying. Everyone knew he was in trouble. I kept waiting for the glider to recover but it refused until about 10' AGL when I saw the bridles kick in and the nose start to pull up. I assume Gerry knew he was in trouble and flared the glider to brake his descent, but still nothing. He impacted at high speed with the base tube hitting just before the nose.
Gerry was unconscious when I reached him and very badly hurt. At that moment I thought he was gone, but after a couple of seconds he started to moan. He slowly regained consciousness, asking what had happened over and over. At one point he said he remembered saying, "Oh shit!" and was worried about what his wife Bert would do when she heard.
After they loaded him into the helicopter the chief paramedic pulled me aside and said he felt Gerry was in good shape for his age and could tell he was a fighter. We all felt very optimistic that he would make it. We were wrong. Gerry had severe internal injuries and didn't stand a chance. I feel that, considering the remote location of the accident, he received prompt and adequate care, and I thank everyone who tried to save his life.
Gerry was a topnotch pilot with 17 years of experience (USHGA #216) and a father to the entire "E" Team of Elsinore, California. He is survived by wife Bert, son Jim and daughter Stephanie.
The European Championships at Millau
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536Gerolf Heinrichs - 2004/06/24
Bad news from the Europeans in Millau - and it's not just about the weather!
This is the major hang gliding event of the season and was expected to be the highlight of the European competition flying. Due to a most competent organising team around meet director Richard Walbec everybody expected only the very best from it.
Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.
Despite instant attempts at the landing field, Ljubomir died very soon after from his severe head and internal injuries.
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1030NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
Fatality at Sylmar Today?
So, even without seeing the report Joe is so rabidly suppressing or watching the video that he managed to squelch, we know EXACTLY what happened. It was a hot, rowdy day, the bar was out, probably had his hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height, he didn't have enough speed, he got turned and crashed downwind.Roz - 2008/06/23 18:16:35 UTC
I was just a visiting pilot from SLC, but happened to be in the LZ with my video camera. I caught all but the impact (thankfully), and was one of the first on the scene. I just want to stress that we only get one chance to land, so everything must be premeditated and carefully planned, especially on hot rowdy days such as Saturday. So to everyone returning to Earth, keep that bar in, speed is safety, and into the wind. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
But this is the idiot CRAP Joe's been passing off as hang gliding instruction for forty years:Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC
You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7671
Gallery Of Pain
This is TOTALLY analogous to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's:Christian Williams - 2012/01/18 19:58:00 UTC
Here's the way Greblo looks at it (or how I remember his lectures):
We take off and land upright. Therefore, all the bad stuff happens when we are upright. And close to the ground.
Therefore, learn to fly upright in the worst conceivable (and sudden hairy) conditions. (One up / one down is "upright").
The alternative, if "more secure prone", is to go prone instantly upon take-off, and stay prone until the last possible landing moment.
In both cases, this requires a change of hand and body position in the worst conceivable conditions near the ground.
Therefore, in order never to change hand position near the ground, it is necessary to learn to face all the worst moments (thermals, gusts, sinkholes, midairs, gear failure, downwind landings and takeoffs, a lifted wing into boulders and an entire wire ground crew snagged on your jock strap) upright.
A little reflection suggests that taking off upright and flying upright until well away from the danger zone is not very different from ground handling, where you are flying standing on dirt. A good test of upright flying skills is whether you can ground handle a glider in 25 mph of laminar flow. Do you require a wire crew? Hmmm.
Greblo will not sign off a Hang 3 (US intermediate rating) who cannot ground handle with confidence at the limit of his takeoff judgment.
He's not dogmatic about this for veteran fliers, recognizing that gliders and skills and terrain are different. He just provides his analysis. You often see him flying around in violent thermals upright, just (I think) as a kind of advertisement and thought-provoker.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
All the bad stuff happens when we are upright close to the ground. Therefore, spend more time upright close to the ground so you learn how to handle all the bad stuff that will happen like...Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
...getting turned downwind in strong air 'cause you were upright with your hands on the downtubes and couldn't control the glider.Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=954
Janyce is in USC Medical Center
Problem solved. Rooney Link breaks at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation? Use a weaker one. Problem solved.Robert Burgis - 2008/03/25 07:10:27 UTC
For those who do not know, Janyce Collins had a "hard landing" today, apparently flaring high at the end of the overshoot hill and pounding in hard enough to break her right arm and right foot.
She spent many hours in Olive View Hospital but was transferred to USC Medical center at about 10:00 PM with no work done for her injuries. The arm fracture (closed humerus fracture) will require surgery but the foot (heel fracture) may not.
Joe's taught this moronic crap since the beginning of time, he doesn't give a rat's ass how many people it crashes, mangles, cripples, kills, and he's not gonna allow into circulation any fatality reports...
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?
...which support the opinion that airspeed is desirable when landing in turbulence. And, of course...Joe Greblo - 2009/04/11 15:16:54 UTC
Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA. I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files. I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident, I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.
This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators. These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.
...neither is USHGA.The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends. I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.
Richard Seymour - 54015 - H4 - 2004/07/07 - Joseph Szalai - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Janyce Collins - 2785 - H4 - 2010/05/10 - Joseph Szalai - AT FL AWCL RLF TUR
Joseph Szalai - 43096 - H4 - 1987/12/06 - Ted Boyse - ADV INST, TAND INST, TUG PILOT
Here's the whole quote in context...Ted Boyse - 36051 - H4 - 1984/03/17 - Joe Greblo - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
http://vimeo.com/39102874Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed (you can see the result in the landing video...
Pearson whacks Greblo
Pearson whacks Greblo
http://vimeo.com/39102874
Steven Pearson - 2012/03/24 10:51
dead
...I start thinking about avoiding Joe, the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
...and contradict and piss off the assholes selling my gliders for me, motivate them to drop Wills Wing and pick up Moyes...I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land...
...(your fundamental Newtonian physics may vary)......but for me...
But if you're one of Joe's (Greblo's or Szalai's (Hungary's)) students and thus flying upright with your hands at shoulder or ear height with no ability to attain any airspeed, pitch, roll control then you'll be totally at the mercy of Mother Nature and just fine - 'cause she's very loving and caring....the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare.
..."I wonder if I can kill this motherfucker and make it look like an accident."The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed (you can see the result in the landing video, I start thinking...
Nah. Better not risk it....about avoiding Joe...
...like it really really really wasn't at the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT......the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air...
Oh. Control authority during landing is a GOOD thing? Wow! Who'da thunk! But even at the expense of being able to stop it on your feet?...but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage...
...like it was at the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT......if the LZ is breaking off...
Exactly like Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT....or if I have to maneuver late on approach.
...where Richard Seymour had his coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...
And out of the Kagel primary, across the street, and into the houses like Richard Seymour was at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT....and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Versus the slow, steep, upright, hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height bullshit Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT.My other comment is that I like to make a long low final.
...like Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient...
And if you DON'T it's not that big of a fucking deal 'cause the glider's already down and just about out of energy and there's not much significantly bad that can happen at that point - a bonk or broken downtube at worst....and I'm only arresting forward motion.
Does anybody with a functional brain believe for a nanosecond that Steve isn't totally talking about Richard during the entire course of this sickeningly diplomatic dissertation?
Here's Jonathan saying EXACTLY the same thing:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
...very UNdiplomatically 'cause he's not trying to sell anybody anything and he's not working inside the Industry power structure.NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
The polar opposite of what scumbags like Joe Greblo, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Matt Taber, pretty much everyone else are teaching and requiring.I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
P.S. Note the total and conspicuous absence of Hungary Joe's participation in the post Richard Seymour discussions.
