instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/07/22 00:27:04 UTC

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6366
Some things I've learned about hang gliding

Jim Rooney - 2014/07/20 09:34:42 UTC

Practice makes Permanent.

Whoa! Just like death! Lemme write that down.

Most people don't have the luxury of revolving their lives around the good weather.

And dickheaded tug drivers declaring themselves Pilots In Command of their gliders, telling them what they can and can't use to connect and disconnect themselves to towlines, and violating the crap out of every USHGA and FAA safety guideline and regulation ever written.

They instead fit hang gliding into their lives.

Those of them who still HAVE lives anyway.

So, you get whatever weather lines up with your schedule.

Oh good. Yet another decision I don't have to make for myself.

This is very apparent when people come out to "practice" landings.

Basic stuff like not flying into ponds and taxiway signs, missing the airport, trying to park in waist high wheat fields.

A difficult reality of running a school is cancelling students.

Why? After nearly cancelling your tandem passenger in the powerlines just below Coronet Peak on 2006/02/21 I'da thunk everything else would've come incredibly easy.

I call it "the bad news phone call".

As opposed to...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238
NZ accident who was the pilot?

Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21 20:37:39 UTC

I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition.

...the GOOD NEWS phone call. At least there was a lot of hope at that point.

We call them Friday night and let them know that Saturday morning's lesson isn't going to happen because of the weather (the weather reports are published around 8pm). It sucks for both of us. It's frustrating for sure.

So much...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...frustration over there. Can't fly on the really crappy days, can't fly on the really stellar days. How DO you manage to cope?

But trying to learn in bad weather not only doesn't help, it hurts (sometimes literally).

Let's not forget getting killed in good weather. That's a real biggie in Dragonfly aerotowing.

For those that view it as a "challenge"... sorry, the reality is that It's harder and it actually takes longer... way longer. And you don't "come out ahead", you actually come out behind.

Everybody's terminally behind with you douchebags anyway. What's anything matter at this point?

So as much as you want to "work on your landings", realize that you need good weather to do so. Practicing in less than ideal conditions makes things worse for you.. way worse.

Yeah, right. These emergency landing exercises you're doing so you can safely stop in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place in switchy air can only be practiced in ideal conditions in the middles of...

20-4106
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/14082586920_34b189f5c2_o.png

...giant putting greens. It would be certifiably insane to compromise with anything less.

Not only does it make it far more difficult to learn, you learn the wrong things.

Like, for example...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.

The more you practice the wrong things, the harder it becomes to learn the right things.

Practice your:
- cliff launches at Dockweiler
- assisted windy cliff launches and turbulence flying at Dockweiler with the air under five and straight in
- flat slope launches at Henson Gap
- high altitude launches at Jockey's Ridge in January with a strong wind coming off the Atlantic
- platform launches and XC skills on the training hill
- surface tow skills behind a Dragonfly
- restricted landing field skills by aiming for traffic cones in the middles of fields
- easy reaches to the release actuator on a stationary launch dolly with an assistant pulling thirty pounds of towline tension
- weak link recovery skills at two thousand feet in smooth air with the glider straight, level, and fast

Always make the training environment as far removed from reality as possible. Can't miss with that strategy.

It is far more productive to learn the right things first.

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself.

To "learn" landings... you want no more than 5mph and steady wind. Landing in 10mph not only teaches you nothing, it teaches you the wrong things. Landing in switchy winds or gusty winds is a trainwreck for learning.

Hell yes. You CERTAINLY don't wanna be learning to land in switchy winds or gusty winds. All you'd learn from that is that the only thing this bullshit you're being taught by these assholes is good for is crashing gliders and breaking arms.

You can extrapolate this idea far beyond the weather.

Standard aerotow weak links, releases within easy reach, bent pin Industry Standard crap, hang checks, Aussie Method... The list is practically endless.

Don't "learn" to land on a high performance glider. Learn on a Falcon. When you can pull off no-wind no-steppers with correct form in your sleep, then move on.

Right. 'Cause in one's fuckin' dreams...

14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png

...is the only place one can safely and consistently pull off no-wind no-steppers with correct form on Falcons.

Until you can, you're making your life harder and will progress slower.

8-71716
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/13962618245_163eb65caa_o.png

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png
9-72800

Whatsamattah Jim? How come you're not posting anywhere but your heavily insulated inbred little cult forum? Too much of a liability now? Earlier today I called you scum on the TUGS forum and so far nobody's written in to disagree or object. And I really doubt that anybody will try 'cause you've provided mountains of supporting evidence that everybody knows about and knows will be really impossible to put anything resembling positive spins on.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/07/27 16:38:17 UTC

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6342
The view from the other end of the rope

Mark Cavanaugh - 2014/07/17 00:32:59 UTC

Just an observation about releasing...

What? You can only do it...

11-311

15-413

...when you don't have to?

After a recent step up to a topless from the U2...

Must be using a...

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png

...pro tow bridal, huh Mark?

I was surprised (though I shouldn't have been) at how hard it is to turn away from the tug after cutting away. Close to half VG and all...
Like, REALLY different.
I will have to pull in for speed/response quite a bit more aggressively than before.

Why don't you just pull in BEFORE you release? Oh... Right. Never mind.

Nice to know that there will be natural separation in case I'm behind the curve...

What? You're just figuring that out now, Mark? A decade and a half of flying Ridgely and you're just now realizing that when 125 pounds of thrust is subtracted from the glider it goes slower and when that same 125 pounds of thrust instantly becomes available to the tug it goes faster? That the tug starts getting smaller instead of staying the same size? When was the last time the water was tested at that place?

But still, need to do better!

Yeah, we've got way too many gliders flying into tugs as it is. Keep focusing on the biggies. (Anybody hear anything 'bout how John Claytor's doing?)

Also very good to hear Jim's thoughts about staying with the turn when released in lift. That certainly expands the options!

You are SO LUCKY to have Jim doing your thinking for you. A world treasure right there in your own backyard.

Suck my dick, Mark.

Jim Rooney - 2014/07/26 03:21:47 UTC

I thought of something else today.

I'll bet you think of new things EVERY day! Probably comes from not having watched enough Sesame Street when you were four.

(I get a lot of time to think)...

Wow...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

An intellect as keen as yours AND a lot of time to think! Are you sure you have enough closet space to keep packing in all those Nobel Prizes?

Pilots often apologize for staying on tow.

Thirty, forty...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...fifty feet sometimes!

I've never understood this.

Well you just put your keen intellect to work for another couple years. I have no doubt whatsoever that you'll have some truly remarkable breakthrough insights into the issues.

Often it's staying on tow through lift.

That was probably the issue with this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

guy. Probably felt guilty about inconveniencing Mark.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/02 23:55:05 UTC

Ummm... If you're holding that much pitch pressure, popping the weaklink and flying away should be easy as blaming a fart on the dog

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

Please do not think for an instant that that thing isn't going to let go. It's going to snap so fast that you won't realize what happened till after it's happened.

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

The only thing I can come up with is that they somehow feel like they're "tying up the tug", but I often hear the same thing when there is no one else towing?

Wanna see what ties up tugs...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6326
An OK Day at Ridgely

Matthew Graham - 2014/06/09 01:51:11 UTC

I got on the flight line at a little after 1pm behind Sammi. She had a sledder. Then the tandem glider called rank and went ahead of me. The tandem broke a weak link and it took a while to sort out a new weak link. I finally towed around 1:30 and also broke a link at 450'. Back to the end of the line. Actually, my wife Karen let my cut in front of her. Bertrand and Sammi towed again. Each having sledder. The cirrus had moved in and things did not look good. Again I arrived at the front of the line only to have the tandem call dibs. And then the tug needed gas. I thought I would never get into the air...

...and everybody else - motherfucker?

Here's the deal....
You love to fly right?...

Well, kicking your teeth down your throat would be my FIRST choice, but... Yeah.

..well, so do I.

And aren't we so very fortunate to have someone with an intellect as keen as yours with all that time to develop it, appoint himself Pilot In Command of our planes, tell us what equipment we can and can't use, and enlighten us with amazing insights that no one in the entire history of aviation has ever thought of before.

So it's pretty impossible to "waste my time" in the air. We're flying!..

One of us is. When a Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation for me at fifty feet:

- I have to sled out and land a few hundred yards down the runway, haul my glider, harness, and ass back to the launch line, replace my safety device, wait for a launch cart, reconfigure, roast in line while a couple of tandem bucket listers to get one of their lifetime goals checked off, get a cart monkey to approve my setup, roll back out to the launch point, hook up, pray for better results using the exact same Rooney Link...

- You get to keep your stupid ass strapped in, do a little go-around, land, hook up the next waiting glider, continue as if nothing happened. Takeoffs and landings are the fun part for you so Rooney Links MAXIMIZE your quality playtime at the expense of destroying mine - and it's all on MY dime. AND...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3035
Tad's Barrel Release and maybe an alternative

Jim Rooney - 2008/02/14 01:37:28 UTC

(3 tows/year) The crux of everything Tad says here.
He is the ultimate sideline quarterback.

Yet he is constantly insulting and condescending to anyone that doesn't agree with his assumptions and conclusions.... which are based on a horrible lack of experience.

It baffles me that people even listen to him.

...you get to blather on even more about how you racked up more airtime last Saturday than T** at K*** S****** did in the last five years.

I'm in happyland.

- And your good friend Zack Marzec is in Never Never Land.

- 'Cause YOU'RE on a gas guzzler. HANG GLIDER pilots tend not to be very happy driving tugs 'cause the better conditions there are for flying hang gliders the less the chance the tug driver has of getting a piece of them in a soaring aircraft.

On the ground is a different story.

Yeah. We know ALL about the ground...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...pigfucker.

I'm sure you can relate to not wanting to wait around on the ground while roasting in your harness.

You don't use a harness like we do, right? You just plop yourself in a cushioned seat and buckle a couple straps, right? No full face helmet or clothes for sustaining at cloudbase...

A bit is necessary, but after a while it gets pretty miserable.

And I'm sure that brings YOU a great deal of misery just thinking about OUR misery.

So you try to be as efficient as possible.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

My world is not too dissimilar.

Fuck you and your goddam world and all the other total pieces of shit inside it.

Sitting on the ground idling while backing in the sun is a less than pleasant place to be.

Try alternating by sitting on the ground idling while fronting in the sun. Distributes the burn a bit more evenly.

I'd much rather be either in the air or hiding in the shade under the wing.

Wanna REALLY get out of the sun? I've got ALL KINDS of suggestions for ya.

So my advice is to either be ready, or wait.

Would being ready include making sure you've got a reliable means of transmitting thrust from the tug to the glider? Just kidding.

If you're not ready, that's fine. Don't push up to the ready-line until you are. I'll land and pull in, turn off the engine, grab a water, hide under the wing, take a leak or any number of little things that I can't do waiting with the rope tight and the engine idling.

Keep your keen intellect occupied with solving even more of hang gliding's many problems.

Pulling up when your ready helps you as well. Not only do you have a much happier tug pilot (happy tug pilots are better at finding lift), but I also have a better idea of what's going on with the air as I was just there a second ago.

Yeah. Us too. At fifty feet it's almost always nothing that was going on.

Being ready also makes the line move much more efficiently which benefits everyone. I have a far better chance of putting you in lift and getting your buddies into lift with you. When things aren't running well, it gets a lot harder to do so.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Brian,
While I appreciate your quest for the perfect weaklink, didn't we cover this already? (Again?)
Are we to go down the road of debating the quality standards of greenspot again?
Ok, for review, it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because you have nothing else.
Do I have to review why we don't tow handmade gliders?

Listen we're all perfectly aware that greenspot is not laser calibrated to 130lbs. It's bloody fishing line. Get over it. Are you flying below your perfect numbers as a heavy guy. Yes. Yes you are. Get over it.
Why?
Because it's all you've got.

Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
Plain and simple. Janni, 1G, but please stay.

Now, my turn.
Name one commercially available strength rated material that can be used as a weaklink OTHER than greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Davis Straub - 2013/02/09 16:45:39 UTC

I am more than happy to have a stronger weaklink and often fly with the string used for weaklinks used at Wallaby Ranch for tandem flights (orange string - 200 lbs). We used these with Russell Brown's (tug owner and pilot) approval at Zapata after we kept breaking weaklink in light conditions in morning flights.

Isn't there ANYBODY who's gonna kick this motherfucker's teeth down his throat?

So if you want to move things along, don't worry about staying on tow.
Think about it... how much do you slow things down by sinking out?
The way to "not tie up the tug" is to be ready.

How STUNNINGLY CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT from the discussion this elephant is. Must've been taken out by ivory poachers.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

Brendon McKenna - 2009/06/26 13:20:41 UTC

Hey Martin,
I have seen the odd discussion about weaklinks here on this list... LOL We definitely don't want to go there!

I think I understand what's going on here.

- Just a month shy of three years ago the Rooney Link was totally acknowledged as the primary soaring opportunity killer but we had to use it because the consequences of using fishing line that DIDN'T blow all the time when the tow was totally under control were probably just too horrible to think about.

- Twenty-six months ago on the issue we had the biggest load of pigshit ever to appear in print published in the national magazine.

- Seventeen months ago we had a blindingly obvious Rooney Link precipitated death which was hands down THE most controversial fatality in the history of the sport. Russell Brown had previously been forced to authorize double Rooney Links in order to be able to get gliders airborne, Morningside had previously decided they were happy with two hundred pounds (slightly stronger than 130), accepted standards had previously changed.

- We totally humiliated the Rooney Linkers. Every time they opened their mouths we buried them under avalanches of their previous stupidities, inconsistencies, contradictions, lies. That was the absolute collapse of the Ponzi scheme. Nobody went to prison but all the snake oil salesmen learned the hard way that they could never again attempt to make a favorable claim about their product.

- The lower ranks - dregs like Marc Fink, Matthew Graham, Cragin Shelton, Dan Tomlinson, Kinsley Sykes, Paul Hurless, Craig Hassan, Richard Bryant - with all their noses permanently glued up Industry ass - learned what would happen to them if they said anything in defense of the scum in with whom they'd long ago thrown their lot.

We've entered a period of hang gliding history in which it's one hundred percent taboo for ANYONE at ANY level to attempt to say ANYTHING of substance on weak links. Hang gliding is faith based aviation. It's just another crappy bullshit religion and crumbles under any kind of scrutiny just like any other crappy bullshit religion. Donnell Hewett's Skyting Theory voodoo was embraced by a hang gliding culture not IN SPITE OF its being a crappy bullshit religion but BECAUSE OF its being a crappy bullshit religion.

The Infallible Weak Link - which is the only thing standing between hang glider towing culture and the unspeakable evil of competence - has been hang gliding towing culture's God for a third of a century. When your God has been irrefutably proven to be a total fabrication by a bunch of historians, astronomers, evolutionary biologists, paleontologists, climatologists, mathematicians, physicists you don't debate these people claiming that it's just a piece of fishing line that breaks before your glider does - you denounce, shun, ostracize, exile, excommunicate them and keep going to church, tithing, sending you kids to Sunday school every weekend.

On every front in which one or several of us have mopped the floor with the high priests of hang (and para) gliding discussion of weak links is dead.

Pre Marzec a regular Joe would have a question about weak link strength every now and then and trigger a civil war - just as Martin said. That era is OVER.

The hang gliding Industry has gotten backed and painted itself into an impossibly tight corner and the only options for it are to stay there or admit that it was flat out WRONG from the git-go (and his been lying its ass off to keep it covered ever since).

And when was the last time The Industry ever admitted it had been wrong about ANYTHING?

Gil Dodgen - 1983/05

Editorial
A NOTE ON TOWING

The early days of hang gliding were marred by numerous towing accidents. During this period this aspect of our sport established a hopelessly bad reputation. And, indeed, last year, as you may have noted in Doug Hildreth's recent accident review, there was a towing fatality by a totally inexperienced Texas pilot.

Some time ago I received a series of four articles on a new towing system from Texas experimenter and inventor Donnell Hewitt. I ran the first in the series of four articles. Editors learn from experience and if I could roll back the calendar I would run all four at once in condensed form. In fact, what happened was that the first article - which made seemingly outrageous claims without outlining the actual technique or hardware - inflamed the then towing establishment. It seems that today's innovators become tomorrow's conservatives so I was bombarded with calls, some from the USHGA Board, telling me that this Mr. Hewitt was totally inexperienced, that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that I was contributing to the possible injury and death of unknown multitudes of innocent hang glider pilots.

I am not a tow pilot, and although Donnell's system made sense to me I was forced to discontinue the series. The essence of his system was a double bridle that connected to the glider and to the pilot. This system would thus pull the pilot back on line in the event that the glider was inadvertently turned off course from behind the vehicle. This would produce a self-correcting system avoiding the infamous "lockout" the factor which seemed to make towing so dangerous.

Well, it appears that Mr. Hewitt's system not only works but, as I've been told by pilots who have made literally thousands of land tows with it, it works beyond all the most optimistic expectations. One pilot told me, "It is virtually impossible to lock out even if one tries."

That was it. Over thirty one years ago. Move the bottom attachment from the basetube to the pilot. AND, of course use:
- a Center Of Mass system which autocorrects for roll
- an Infallible Weak Link to prevent lockouts for when the Center Of Mass system DOESN'T autocorrect for roll
- a release within easy reach because with all that other stuff going for you it would be stupidly superfluous to give you the capability of blowing tow while controlling the glider.

It's in the USHGA Bylaws and Mission Statement that every time you admit you were wrong about one thing you hafta bundle at least three new items of total deadly crap to balance things out.

The Birrenator will NEVER be a certifiably insane death trap because Peter invented it and Pat Denevan's using it.

Whenever a commercial interest person kills someone by violating an SOP *HE* won't be removed from hang gliding - the SOP WILL. Constant unstoppable lowering of the bar.

ANY progress that requires anybody who's ever made a buck from hang gliding to admit that he's been wrong or be identified and declared as having been wrong about ANYTHING will NEVER happen.

And any solid theory, procedure, equipment equivalent to anything from a century's worth of conventional aviation that doesn't come from a significant commercial interest - ain't gonna happen dude.

And nothing's gonna come from a significant commercial interest 'cause - Catch-22 - that would be an admission that they'd been wrong about what they'd been saying, doing, using in the past.

Legal range weak links which allow mid to heavy range gliders to get airborne and varying in proportion to either flying weight or glider capacity... WHAT? Are you TOTALLY NUTS or sumpin'? Don't you think we know what we're doing - you wacko muppet?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/07 19:27:23 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38691
Dragonfly crash

Davis Straub - 2014/08/06 13:08:39 UTC

Dragonfly crash

AGAIN? Sheesh. This is getting old.

Pilot safe...

Eh...

Dragonfly being repaired

GREAT! Let's restore it to the way it was before there was a flight control malfunction, take it back up, and see if we get better results!

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140708X20307

On July 7, 2014, about 2020 Pacific daylight time, an ultralight Bailey-Moyes Microlights Dragonfly B, N7008Z, impacted trees after the pilot activated the onboard parachute near Flying H Ranch Airport, Buckley, Washington.

And great job getting the word out to OTHER Dragonfly jockeys in a timely manner - just one month - so's they can all consider the risks of flying these pieces of shit before figuring out what the fuck's going on with the control system that's killed at least two of their buddies in the course of the past three years.

Private individuals owned and operated the ultralight under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The private pilot sustained minor injuries; the ultralight was substantially damaged.

But, fortunately, not to the degree that it can't be put up again in fairly short order.

Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The pilot departed Burnett Landing Airport, Wilkeson, Washington about 2000 for a local personal flight.

The pilot reported that about 15 minutes after departure, he was maneuvering the ultralight to the west of Flying H Ranch Airport. While maneuvering at an airspeed of about 33-34 mph, the pilot initiated a right turn. The ultralight then assumed a nose-low attitude with the right wing low. The pilot felt no feedback pressure...

Tension.

...on the control stick and determined that there was a flight control malfunction.

No shit. REALLY?

He activated the onboard BRS emergency parachute when the ultralight was about 100 feet above the trees. The ultralight subsequently collided with the trees and came to rest inverted about .4 nautical miles from the airport.

Damn. So close.

The wreckage was recovered for further examination.

Nope. Don't see a problem. Let's patch it up, get the chute reloaded, take it back up, see what happens.

Larry Jorgensen

No not me but some good friends. They bought the tug from Scott, Dave and Aaron in Oregon.

What did Scott, Dave, and Aaron in Oregon get to replace it?

I have been flying with them a bunch taught them how to tow etc.

Oh good.

They let a friend fly it who felt something weird on final.

Did you check to see if there was a Tad-O-Link that some twisted motherfucker had snuck onto the top of the tow mast?

He was low so deployed the chute. We could not find anything wrong.

Then obviously there wasn't.

Maybe got a little slow and was pretty low near the trees, may have encountered some turbulence.

Yeah, that was probably all it was. Rookie Mistake probably. I wouldn't lose any sleep over this one.

They are repairing the tug and should be back in the air soon.

I can hardly wait!

Thanks to Scott Silver.

And let's not forget Bill Moyes and Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey!

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/07 22:53:32 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38691
Dragonfly crash

Brad Gryder - 2014/08/06 22:40:21 UTC
ultralight Bailey-Moyes Microlights Dragonfly B, N7008Z
So even the "authorities" have a hard time not calling 'em ultralights, eh?

Indeed, the D-fly handles more like an "ultralight" than a GA plane, and unless a regular joe pilot is dual trained by a D-fly pilot who has lots of time in-type, joe's going to be way out of his comfort zone and at increased risk of bending metal, ripping dacron, and breaking bones.

Yeah, that certainly would explain Keavy Nenninger, Charles Matthews, and Mark Knight.

Pilot safe, Dragonfly being repaired
That's the good news.

I mostly agree with you.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/11 10:10:39 UTC

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

Jim Rooney - 2007/12/13 18:07:02 UTC

Wow, so this is what I get when I try to be civil?

I'd really advise a piece of shit such as yourself to not waste your time TRYING to be civil. Lipstick on a pig sorta thing. Black on a Raven appeals to just about everyone - on the rocks along Prince William Sound or the beaches and marshes along the Gulf of Mexico not so much.

Oh well, very nice. Enjoy being pissed.

I actually enjoy flying at a competent, efficient, safe, legal operation and being Pilot In Command of my own plane and not worrying about some goddam brainless junk ultralight driver and/or piece of mandated fishing line override my decisions. But, since that never was a possibility...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

...I'm gonna make the most of being pissed - and your life and the lives of your cult members as miserable as possible.

I don't care.

I'm gonna make sure you DO care enough to keep...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.

...repeating that you don't.

As they often say here on the internet....
Pics or it didn't happen.

Pics or not, motherfucker, it happened. Gravity doesn't really give a flying fuck about what THEY often say on the internet - it keeps working exactly the same way it did before fuckin' assholes with keyboards figured they could redesign reality by saying stuff. And somewhere down the line, it'll kick in that spectacularly again - and I'm gonna enjoy it every bit as much.

I did "bother" to look at your pics. They're cryptic at best.

Freedomspyder - 2013/03/07 18:48:37 UTC

About all I want to say about Tad is he sure takes some nice pictures of his strings. And you sure did belittle him a way back. Actually, you seem to belittle everyone on this board. Continue on...

Two plus two equals four is cryptic at best to you - and lotsa people know it now...

How would I know they were component shots otherwise? Wasting pixels? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Riiiiight. Pics or it didn't happen pal.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Satisfied?

I bring up the Oz Forum cuz I seriously believe you fear peer review.

You seriously believe that:
- you have a keen intellect
- Bobby Bailey is a fucking genius when it comes to this shit
- Jim Gaar is a tug pilot and thus no fuckin' way a fool
- a critically frayed towline increases the safety of the towing operation
I couldn't be happier that you seriously believe the worst of me in every last aspect of life. It would be a major crisis for me if I got anything less than total hostility from scum like you, Bo, Cragin, Davis, Peter, Trisa...

It's easy to rant and rave...

Can you quote me something of mine you qualify as a rant and/or rave? Preferably something on par with:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...here on this group because most here are very civil...

Uniform groups of total vegetables always are. Teaching intelligent design and attacking Darwinian evolution in a Texas public school is highly unlikely to get students, parents, other faculty members bent too far out of shape.

...and there's no moderation.

No, just arbitrary three month suspensions for counterattacking. I'll be 68 months into mine come tomorrow.

Not so over at Oz.

Yep.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=592
Linknife

Davis Straub - 2010/04/03 12:46:26 UTC

Tad is gone.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Davis Straub - 2011/02/07 19:21:29 UTC

Okay, enough. On to new threads.

--LOCKED--

Davis runs a pretty tight ship whenever he and his buddies are getting their balls chewed off.

There are also very highly qualified individuals lurking there.

But you can't name any? And how come they just lurk? What's the point of being highly qualified if you never engage in a discussion, neutralize a dangerous stronglinker or straight pinner, effect a change, explain why Morningside decided they were happy with a weak link slightly - 54 percent - heavier than the one that's been proven to work over, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of tows?

Don't highly qualified lurkers monitor stuff that's NOT on The Davis Show? Discussions like this in the Ridgely/Manquin sphere of influence? What's stopping them from coming over here and nailing me with some well deserved peer review? Oh, right, they wouldn't be highly qualified lurkers if they actually ever said anything.

I honestly think you're afraid.

- You don't have a molecule's worth of honesty in your being - and there hasn't been one in at least half a dozen generations of your ancestry.

- Wanna talk cowardice? I have NOTHING but contempt for pieces of shit like your buddy Steve Kroop...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...who lurk around watching postmortem discussions in quiet amusement because they fancy themselves too superior to engage with Hang Fives, Fours, Threes, Twos, Ones, Zeroes flying or interested in flying gliders. Anything of any importance in hang gliding can be quickly, fully, and easily understood by any halfway intelligent junior high school kid and anybody who thinks of himself as highly qualified is a moron and an asshole and anybody who presents himself as highly qualified is a fraud and an asshole. Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen and Dr. Trisa Tilletti come to immediate mind.

But of course you'll have an excuse for not going there.

I went there, motherfucker. And got nothing but sabotaged, locked, deleted, and banned.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14931
Tad's release (even more)

Freedomspyder - 2009/02/14 17:43:30 UTC

I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.

Told me...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1041
"Sharing" of Hang Gliding Information ?!?

Merlin - 2012/05/26 13:22:30 UTC

I confess to previously having a bit of an Oz Report habit, but the forced login thing has turned me off permanently, and I am in fact grateful. Frankly, the site had pretty much been reduced to a few dedicated sycophants in any case.

...I was doing everything right.

And where are you now? So many lies, contradictions, displays of stupidity, ignorance, incompetence that you became an embarrassment even to Davis and can't post on anything of any substance anymore - not that Davis has ever been into topics of any substance. So you're back presenting yourself a genius on the idiot little Capitol forum which is little more than a bulletin board for weekend flying plans and recaps of great flying experiences and days which would've been great flying experiences if the Rooney Links had allowed people to get far enough off the ground to have had shots.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.

This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.

You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.

Here's ONE of you motherfuckers...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TUGS/message/1148
Tug Rates

Mark Knight - 2011/02/10 19:57:25 UTC

Learn the facts.
You have no idea what happened.

...who doesn't have the last word - or laugh. But, yeah, you fuckin' gas heads HAVE managed to hijack a lot of the sport and get the last word. That you find PRIDE and PLEASURE in that totally disgusts me.

As an instructor and mentor myself the ABSOLUTE LAST THING *I* want to have is the last word on anything. I want my guys all on the same page with basic aviation theory and Mother Nature so THEY're all able to have the last word on THEIR flying and not end up as dying heaps on runways the way your idiot friend did when and because his Rooney Link had the last word. I want my guys' last words to be at the very least as good as my last words and hopefully better. And this I've been able to achieve.

Don't like it?

Goddam right, motherfucker. It's totally sickening that this sport tolerates scum like you dictating what it can and can't do. Your fuckin' head should've been one of those of a couple dozen Dragonfly jockeys lined up on pikes a decade ago.

Don't ask me to tow you.

Anybody who tows behind assholes like you and the people who qualified you deserves whatever happens to him.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

And his sport is all about YOU, isn't it Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney? It hangs on your every word because without you it plunges back into the darkness whence it came before you arrived in a manger marked by a brilliant fixed star.

So where is it you want Zack C to troll? For what group of flyers do you have so little regard and so much contempt that you have no problem whatsoever with Zack exposing them to and influencing them with his dangerous stronglink message?

Why don't you just keep working him over / tying him up on The Davis Show? That's locked down so's only loyal Davis Sycophants can see it. Isn't he MORE dangerous on The Jack Show, fer instance?

Explain to me how you're able to care the least bit about the sport of hang gliding and the people in and coming into it if you're advising somebody with dangerous theories and opinions to preach them elsewhere in the cybersphere.

I actually DO care about the sport and the kind of people who SHOULD be in it and the most important and effective thing I can do is hunt down and destroy supertrolls such as yourself, Steve Wendt, Davis, Malcolm, Matt, Trisa, Bob, Peter, Pagen... I don't want them going somewhere else and poisoning new victims. I want their names and reputations thoroughly, totally, irrevocably demolished and their places in history permanently where they deserve to be.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/17 16:11:23 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31710
Introduction, thinking about flying again, Scott Bulger

Scott Bulger - 2014/08/17 04:07:09 UTC
Redmond

My last flight was in 1986 after my brother Chris passed away. I had to fly after he passed, but kids, a wife, responsibilities suggested it was time to stop. Well, the kids are grown, the retirement account is making good progress and I find myself thinking about flying again.

I've started to loose some weight and figure this would be something that would really increase my focus on getting fit and staying that way. After some research I think a WW Sport 2 is the right wing to look for. I hate to buy a Falcon and turn it over in a year or less. I was a Hang 4 when I quit, sure I'm rusty, but I'd probably limit my flying to only the best of conditions.

I'll call some old buddies and get their suggestions on a parachute, harness, vario...

Not 100% sure I'm going to do this, but thinking real hard about it. Anyway, drop me a note if we knew each other in the past, or if you knew Chris. Take care, Scott

Your brother Chris didn't "pass away".

- He was towing a glider with total useless pieces of shit for releases on both ends the string. Neither one of them could take any load whatsoever without disintegrating and the trike's couldn't function under any.

- He was using a totally useless "restraint" system.

- His helmet and parachute were left down on the trailer.

- He put the tow out of control by deliberately making a totally unnecessary abrupt right turn and got tumbled and thrown out of the trike at five hundred feet and got killed instantly - eleven months shy of three decades ago today.

I don't like dumping on the dead guy in this case but he was irresponsible and did a massive amount of damage to the sport and gave tons of aid and comfort to the enemy.

- "Unfortunately, many hang glider pilots do not appreciate or understand the significant risks repeatedly taken by tug pilots and aerotow club or flight park operators, on behalf of hang glider pilots so that the hang glider pilots can have safe tows and have fun."

- "You're not compromising MY safety with one of your one and a half G Tad-O-Links. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience. Suck it up."

- "if the two pilots involved would have gotten tired of breaking weaklinks and gone and got beer, The young man may still be alive today. The extra weaklinks were a direct cause of the problem."

You were still around as a Hang Four after Rob Kells wrote his total bullshit report - one that set us up for lotsa additional towing crashes and fatalities - and didn't say anything then. Don't ya think you owe it both to hang gliding and your brother's memory to help get the record set extremely straight on that one now?

Obviously not. If you were gonna do anything you'd have done it already.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/24 11:38:08 UTC

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1582
Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Rick Masters - 2014/08/20 15:42:32 UTC

What exactly is it that soaring parachutists learn from knowing that hundreds of fellow fliers have died suddenly from unexpected collapses?
Answer: Nothing.

Why don't you tell us exactly what hang glider jockeys have learned from knowing that hundreds of fellow flyers have found their gliders...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=811
FTHI

Rick Masters - 2011/10/26 23:07:48 UTC

My good friends Bob Dunn and Dave Butz both launched unhooked. Bob held on to his base tube all the way down from Plowshare. The impact split his skull and he suffered terribly until he died during the night, alone. Dave pulled himself onto his control bar and rode the glider down from the high Santa Barbara launch.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

...floating up unexpectedly high during their launch runs?

Bob Kuczewski - 2014/08/20 17:00:16 UTC

I respectfully disagree.

You RESPECTFULLY disagree?!

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/12/31 07:34:26 UTC

But if you want to talk numbers and logic, then start by explaining the laws of physics in terms of differential equations and not your simple 2+2=4 "logic" if you want my respect.

So now we know that Rick can explain the laws of physics in terms of differential equations. Most impressive. Either that or you're lying about having respect for Rick.

It's true that humans learn best from their own personal experience.

And Bob's an expert on humans so pay careful attention to everything he says.

History is full of examples of people cautiously trying something, not getting hurt, trying it again, not getting hurt, and declaring it's safe.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/14704620965_ce30a874b7_o.png

Or, quite often, knowing perfectly well that it's dangerous as hell but continuing to do it while attacking proponents of the safe procedure for political reasons.

Everything from lead plumbing to tobacco follows that pattern.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=822
US Hawks Hook-In Verification Poll

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/11/04 15:17:15 UTC

You've had a platform here to make a pretty good case, and I think I'd prefer a straight pin myself. However, I do feel that the BIG DEAL you make about the differences is somewhat overblown. So I wouldn't fear using a bent pin release, but based on what you've said about your testing results, I think I'd currently choose a straight pin given the choice.

We try it a few times with no ill effects and we think it's safe.

I never operated that way in hang gliding, Bob. But I'm subhuman scum so what do I know?

But that is not correct. In many cases, only a long term view of statistics can show us the real dangers.

NAME one of those cases - asshole.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11361
Question

Zack C - 2010/10/15 13:25:50 UTC

Speaking of which, while I can fault Tad's approach, I can't fault his logic, nor have I seen anyone here try to refute it. You may not like the messenger, but that is no reason to reject the message.

Name me ONE THING in hang gliding that was learned through, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of flights worth of trail and error - except, of course, the single loop of 130 pound Greenspot as the universal focal point of a safe aerotowing system.

Your work in documenting paragliding fatalities is important.

Of course. Otherwise we'd have no fuckin' clue that paragliders are capable of doing shit like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T24X-NBNsPM
Disaster !! Bad Collapse Handling
sitvanit - 2007/07/24
dead

In fact, it reminds me of the work that Bob Wills senior did on hang gliding safety decades ago.

Work like total fucking assholes like you piss all over...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=795
AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/10/18 03:44:44 UTC

Tad,

Otto Lilienthal died in a glider accident in 1896. Maybe you should mention that as well?

If you have a specific comment to make about Al's flight, then that would be helpful to him and to this forum. But if you just want to take a jab at hang gliding because you've got a grudge against someone, then please open a new topic somewhere else.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski

...so you can more easily maintain hang gliding as one happy family of individual freedoms in which everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone else's - and a thousand times more valid than anything Tad has to say.

Numbers over time tell a story that cannot be seen in the snapshot of the moment.

Yeah, what could anyone possibly learn from...

2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png

09-1116
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8203/29011379445_8956477e20_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

11-1814

12-1915

14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png

...a snapshot?

Totally full o' shit per usual, Bob. But if one isn't used to the game reads crap like that it appears totally reasonable, obvious, harmless. Nah. I know EXACTLY what you and other sleazy douchebags of your ilk are pulling with this bullshit.

Rick Masters - 2014/08/21 02:10:20 UTC

Well, of course.

Yeah, of course. OBVIOUSLY. Goes without saying.

But that's not the point I was trying to make.

EXACTLY, Rick. Now think real hard about why Bob just said what he did.

I was pointing out that a paraglider can do something no hang glider can ever do: suddenly become treacherous, suddenly lose its ability to fly and kill or maim the operator.

And just how many hundreds of incidents did we need to realize that was a possibility?

The vast majority of soaring parachutists know this but fly anyway. Mythology of the Airframe was up for several years but the response was always to attack the messenger and to rationalize away the danger.

Big surprise. Tell me when that has not been the case in unregulated, commercial interest controlled aviation.

It was a very immature and stupid response to a serious issue.

Bullshit. It was totally calculated. Look what the bag pigfuckers did to me when I explained to them what a weak link was and showed them that the BHPA policy officials were all lying sacks of shit:

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28641
Weak links in towing paragliders with pay out winch
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Bob Kuczewski - 2014/08/21 05:48:51 UTC

You're not limited to just one blog on the US Hawks. If you wanted to start a "Mythology of the Airframe" blog, I'd be happy to help you port your database to the new format. Just let me know.

Yeah Rick, he'll help you do that to show how supportive he is of you and free speech principles. Just don't ever bother looking for him at your side in a fight - 'cause Bob's perpetual goal in life is to have as many people as possible like him.

You could even make it an open blog with an invitation for others to post as well.

Can he invite me if he wants to? Or have you predetermined that he won't want to invite me?

You could establish the guidelines for posting and have them followed.

Or you could just do what Bob does and violate the crap out of the guidelines, rules, principles you've stated, do whatever the fuck you feel like on any pretense you care to invent. Bob's a really staunch supporter of individual freedoms and the most important individual freedom of all is the freedom to suppress other individuals' freedoms.

You know I'm not against paragliding, but I think the accident record you've accumulated might be able to save lives ... by opening eyes.

- Yeah, right.
- Like you'd give a flying fuck.

You've done a tremendous amount of work, and I think it could do some good.

Of course you do, Bob. You THINK everything everybody does COULD do SOME good. So name somebody you've ever backed who actually HAS done some good. Name one flyer who, as consequence of your effort or support of someone else's effort, has changed what he's doing or using to widen his safety margins and have a better flying experience.

Bill Cummings - 2014/08/21 20:02:30 UTC

Come on Rick!
It was too much work to let fade away.

Rick Masters - 2014/08/21 20:19:51 UTC

Mythology of the Airframe was online for three years. I had documented 800 paragliding fatalities when I took it down in 2012, finally realizing I had accomplished nothing.

How the fuck do you know what you were or weren't accomplishing? You expected to be able to post a collection of fatality reports and watch a hundred thousand baggers trade their wings for hang gliders? How do you know there's not a single individual who, as a result of seeing your stuff, decided to go with hang gliders or, at least, not fly paragliders?

You know how much work I've done trying to get people to comply with the most fundamental of all of USHGA's safety regulations, the one that's been on the books for over 33 years that requires you to make sure you're connected to your glider just before you run off the ramp? Largely thanks to dumb fucks such as yourself and total pieces of shit like Bob, Jack, Davis, Ryan, Tom after years worth of battles I can count the converts about whom I know I can claim on my fingers. But that's a helluva lot better than nothing and those individuals can influence other individuals. And maybe twenty years from now somebody standing on a ramp about to move his foot will be legitimately worried about the possibility that his carabiner's dangling behind his knees as a direct or indirect result of my efforts.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/24 14:37:44 UTC

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1582
Rick Masters: Superiority of Hang Gliders

Rick Masters - 2014/08/22 01:01:48 UTC
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/08/20 17:00:16 UTC

...the work that Bob Wills senior did on hang gliding safety decades ago.
R.V. Wills began compiling fatality data immediately following the first deaths in the sport of hang gliding. At first, he included foreign fatalities. But by the late/middle 1970s, he came under pressure by the organization to limit the numbers to the USA. Other countries followed his lead and limited their numbers to their specific countries.

- It wasn't HIS lead. It was USHGA's.

- Nobody followed anybody's lead. All hang - and para - gliding organizations are trying to sell dangerous products. The easiest way to sell the product is to get your safety numbers up. The easiest way to get your safety numbers up is to suppress crash data.

Then the USHGA began listing only their members who died within the USA. The rationale was to illustrate the effectiveness of their training and rating program.

That's not a "rationale". That's a scam.

Fair enough...

Bullshit. That was total sleaze.

....but we lost the Big Picture. Also, at the end of the 1970s they made the sensible decision to kick out the power people (who were dying in droves) and no longer count them.

And then at the end of the Eighties the power people came back in in the form of tugs and took over the sport. And WE LET THEM.

Doug Hildreth assumed the Safety chair...

Smells to me like Wills was forced out.

...and also did a great job through the 1980s.

- He went into 1994.

- Good job... Yeah. Great job... No. He did a great job of data collection, reporting, analysis. But he never got to the roots of the problems and thus he never did a goddam thing to get anything fixed.

Doug Hildreth - 1990/03

The other significant increase is in failure to hook in. Typically there are about the same number of non-hook-ins in the questionnaire group, so that it is safe to say that there were at least ten failures to hook in this year. It has occurred in the tandem sector too, both pilot and passenger.

The instructional programs to assure hook-in within fifteen seconds of launch have apparently not caught up with the masses.

Doug Hildreth - 1991/06

Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.

Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.

I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.

You can't be an Accident Review Committee Chairman for thirteen years without coming to understand that the Industry deliberately isn't doing SHIT to address ANY of the OBVIOUS problems you've been identifying. He should've resigned his position with a scathing attack on USHGA and its programs and worked from the outside if he cared about the sport and wanted to have a positive influence on it.

But pilots from many countries who died elsewhere were often never included in a list.

Wanna say anything about Terry Mason, Sam Kellner, and Bob Kuczewski? Or is that a little too close to home?

This skewed the numbers lower and made hang gliding look better than it was. However, safety in hang gliding did improve because pilot error, which can be reduced through training, was the major factor once the divergence problem was solved.

- Electing to fly a known divergent, uncertified aircraft IS pilot error. Just like electing to flying a Wanderer which hasn't been load tested to make sure its wings won't snap off in flight.

- The divergence problem was "SOLVED"? Somebody installed strings and struts to prevent the trailing edge from being depressed? And he didn't get a Nobel Prize or anything?

In 1986, about the time I retired from the sport, hang gliding in the USA reflected lower fatality numbers (5) than SSA sailplanes. I was pretty pleased about that and didn't find out that 18 HG pilots died in the USA in 1987 until many years later.

As late as 2002, when I filmed the US PG Nats in Owens Valley, I was unaware of the safety disparity between HG and PG, mainly because the numbers available to the US public were USHGPA...

They don't spell it that way. They spell it: "USHPA".

...numbers and the USHGPA reported ZERO PG fatalities in the USA in 2001. So imagine my surprise, arriving at that meet as Lone Pine Search and Rescue found Bruce Wallace dead on Mount Langley. Up to that moment, I had thought paragliding was pretty safe. Then I filmed Jody Lucas encounter a dust devil at takeoff, enter a spiral dive in a twist and crash brutally on Gunter (to die near Christmas, never regaining consciousness).

But even then, I just guessed the soaring parachutists had had a bit of bad luck. It was the Owens Valley after all, the most dangerous place for such sports. So I put it out of my mind until 2008, when the USHGPA reported only two paragliding fatalities. Then, out of curiosity, I went to Paragliding Forum and asked them what had happened to Jody. They said it was his fault when I knew it wasn't.

Sure it was. Just like with Bill Priday who didn't do a hang check or Zack Marzec who wasn't wearing a full face helmet.

Things went downhill from there.

With a little investigating, I discovered that this fragmented system of reporting accidents and incidents makes us all mushrooms, kept in the dark to be spoon-fed bullshit. Honesty will not be tolerated.

I then posted this to ParaglidingForum:

The risk inherent in paragliding is often referred to by paraglider pilots as a "risk vs. reward" judgement. That is, they will risk their lives, their future and the future of those who may depend upon them by choosing a deficient wing that can suddenly fail in turbulence - if the pleasure they receive leading up to that event is prejudged as substantial. Incredibly, this choice is made over robust footlaunch wings with airframes that exist, used, within the same price range as new paragliders.

Ya know, Rick... I'm guessing that the percentage of foot launch flights that our foot launchable wings are making is a smallish fraction of overall flights.

The excuse given in accepting this additional risk is that hang gliders "are not as convenient." Hang glider pilots also share a risk vs. reward judgement but their wings do not fail in the type of turbulence that fails paragliders.

The risk that hang glider pilots face, flying in the same air and at approximately the same speeds as paraglider pilots, is almost inconsequential. This is never acknowledged by paraglider pilots. In their risk comparisons with hang gliders, paraglider pilots without exception will state that, because hang gliders can also fail in turbulence, it follows that the two types of aircraft are equivalent in risk. This is not true. It is, in fact, a lie.

How 'bout this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide

Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC
San Diego

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."

http://vimeo.com/101206617

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Rick? How 'bout the big lie that we need to constantly practice stopping these things on our feet within two or three yards of a traffic cone to be safe pilots?

Paragliding itself possesses, by far, the greatest inherent risk in popular aviation sports. This is due to the Paragliding Dead Man's Curve - the PDMC - that illustrates why a paraglider must travel through a zone of no-recourse twice on every flight. Unlike the helicopter, which has a genuine option to always avoid its own Dead Man's Curve, the paraglider is completely unable to avoid the PDMC. It must fly through the PDMC at least twice - on takeoff and landing - and the paraglider often spends a great deal of time within the PDMC while ridge soaring or seeking lift. If the airfoil fails within the PDMC - that is, if a collapse cannot be recovered - the pilot will be killed or severley injured because within the PDMC the deployment of the reserve parachute is not an option.

The majority of PDMC-related injuries, which is inarguable, are spine and leg injuries which can doom survivors to parapeligic futures. These types of injuries are not common in hang gliding accidents where the tensioned sail and airframe often absorb much of the impact energy.

Lotsa times...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Not always.

Paraglider accidents are, in fact, a massive step up in severity.

On the other hand...

14-00725
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png

...they don't get their hands trapped on downtubes.

This brings us to the fundamental difference between paragliders and all other types of aircraft - including helicopters. Paragliders present an added layer of risk to the pilot. This risk is directly related to the PDMC. It is the added risk accumulated from flying within the PDMC.

This risk is additional to the risk inherent in all other types of sport aviation. It is also additional to the risk inherent in flying paragliders above 366 feet - which represents the lower practical limit (4 seconds) of a successful reserve deployment.

Bullshit. That assumes no warning whatsoever and the pilot instantly going into unimpeded freefall mode.

Therefore flying paragliders involves two layers of risk - the inherent risk of sport aviation plus the added risk from flying within the PDMC - compared to all other types of aviation, which involve only one.

How large is this risk? Clearly flight within the PDMC, even for a short period, is much more dangerous than flight above it. Therefore it is at least twice as dangerous and could easily be assumed to be 100 times or even 1000 times more dangerous.

What is the actual significance of such risk when paragliders are commonly seen to experience safe flights? The answer is qualifiable - which adds an element of confusion to the issue. Paraglider pilots will point out that the vast majority of paraglider flights are done safely. They use these statistics to demonstrate that paragliding is a relatively safe sport. They will claim that only one accident occurs for every 1000 hours of flying.

This is true. But what does this really mean?

Paraglider pilots, almost without exception, learn to fly in smooth, laminar, turbulence-free air. This type of air is commonly found coming in from the ocean or lakes or smooth terrain, often in the morning or later in the evening. The numbers used to represent paragliding as a relatively safe sport are taken from these areas - where the majority of paragliding occurs. But the PDMC deals only with an instance of 4 seconds following collapse: the remaining 4 seconds of rapid descent (instigated by turbulence) where a reserve parachute deployment is not possible.

These 4 seconds do not compare well to the three million, six hundred thousand incident-free seconds that make up the claimed 1000 hours in laminar air. These 4 seconds are significantly weighted in any discussion of paraglider safety. In fact, the 4 seconds are so significant and the 3,600,000 seconds are so insignificant that the 1000 hour claim is meaningless.

Why? Because the pilot's life can be lost or forever changed in those 4 seconds. Those 4 seconds carry real weight. They mean something. You cannot compare 4 seconds spent floating peacefully around in the sky with the 4 second emergency that can end or forever change a pilot's life. Therefore the comparison is invalid.

Risk involves the factor of accumulative time. Risk assessment assumes that over a period of time and under unchanging conditions, a singularity will occur between Point A and Point B. This type of analysis - static analysis - is accepted in general aviation, rail and ship travel, and automotive accidents. Actuary tables are built on static analysis.

But in paragliding, static analysis is meaningless because the novice pilot will frequently progress in skill, experience, equipment choice and site choice to arrive at the new risk realm of inland thermal sites and their dramatically increased risk. The paraglider pilot will now begin to launch from inland mountains and fly in turbulent conditions. Sooner or later, turbulence will induce a partial or full collapse of the wing at altitude.

Usually the pilot will recover from the collapse and throughout the remainder of his or her flying career will attribute his recovery to skill and training. Luck will not be a factor in the explanation. (This is denial.)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.

But then, sooner or later, turbulence will induce a partial or full collapse near the PDMC. This will frighten the pilot, but again, the pilot will recover from the collapse and throughout the remainder of his flying career will attribute his recovery to skill and training. Here, luck may be acknowledged as a minor factor.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

The pilot's odds of encountering turbulence at takeoff, while ridge soaring within the PDMC or descending toward landing increase with the pilot's airtime. Paraglider pilots encountering a collapse during takeoff, low soaring or landing within the PDMC will not have time to deploy a reserve parachute and therefore must attempt to recover from the collapse before impact. This often fails, resulting in serious injury or death. This is often observed and can be studied on YouTube.

To compound this problem, paraglider pilots frequently do not know how close they are to the PDMC because the specifics of the PDMC are often ridiculed by their peers...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Subj: Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
From: cloud9sa@aol.com
To: skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
cc: GreggLudwig@aol.com, lisa@lisatateglass.com

Additionally, if you want to really present a convincing argument, you should also: (a) get other experts to co-sign your letter, such as those who have some or most of the aerotowing-related credentials listed above, who have been doing this for many years with many students, and who support your argument; and (b) present reliable data based on valid research showing that there is a significant difference in safety with the changes that you recommend. Supportive comments from aerotow experts along with convincing data can make a difference. Otherwise, it may seem as if your perception of "the sky is falling" may not be shared by most others who have a wealth of experience and who are deeply involved in aerotowing in the US.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=795
AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/10/18 03:44:44 UTC

Tad,

Otto Lilienthal died in a glider accident in 1896. Maybe you should mention that as well?

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/03/10 18:20:34 UTC

I first learned about Tad Eareckson when I was Regional Director and the USHPA Board circulated a letter he had written (with intention to send?) to the FAA about some dangerous practices in hang gliding.

The Board's knee-jerk response was to try to take some kind of legal action to silence Tad. I indicated that I thought we shouldn't be sending our lawyers in as our first response, and that maybe we should have someone talk with him first. So Dennis Pagen volunteered, and I believe the matter was settled without any serious damage to the sport.

...so they will continue to attempt to recover from a collapse or nose-down spiral dive until they enter the PDMC, eliminating the option of a reserve deployment that may have saved them.

To bluntly recap in an unavoidable way that paraglider pilots in severe denial appear to find offensive, I will state that

1) Paragliders are not true aircraft because they can lose thier ability to fly during flight in conditions that all other forms of aircraft can tolerate. They are therefore stunt parachutes and should be acknowledged as such - particularly to avoid liability issues.

2) Paragliders are not equivalent to any other aircraft, including parachutes, hang gliders or helicopters.

2) Paragliders are the most dangerous of all aircraft when flown in turbulence.

3) Paraglider pilots accumulate risk at a rate of 2 to 1000 times more quickly than pilots of other aircraft flying at approximately the same speeds in the same conditions. This accumulative risk is qualitative and is a function of the average level of turbulent air the paraglider pilot has flown in.

Bob Kuczewski - 2014/08/22 21:35:44 UTC
Bill Cummings - 2014/08/21 20:02:30 UTC

Come on Rick!
It was too much work to let fade away.
Bill is absolutely right.

Also, thanks for the background information on the evolution of safety in hang gliding. It was worth reading!!

Hey Bob... When you start roasting in Hell for all eternity - hopefully sometime within the next year or so - I *SO* hope you're gonna be permanently and totally surrounded by opaque curtains of:

and:

Ya wouldn't think that my level of hatred for you could POSSIBLY ramp up any. But every time I see another one of those...

Bill Cummings - 2014/08/23 01:46:42 UTC

Thanks Rick
I didn't know the evolution story either.

Rick Masters - 2014/08/23 06:53:11 UTC

There's a hell of a lot more to it than that.

You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/08/28 15:50:55 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29878
The Eric Mies Project

Brad Barkley - 2014/08/28 14:05:22 UTC

The word on Facebook is that Eric Mies has passed away. I didn't know him, but was able to contribute to his cause, happily, because of the .org. Any loss of a fellow pilot is felt throughout our little world. Condolences to family and friends.

Define "fellow pilot", motherfucker.

Eric DEMOLISHED himself - along with his family - doing stupid shit like:

05-4321c

08-4923c

10-5024c

'cept over and into solid stuff. And he knew and stated that.

I flew for a span of 28 years, was, for all practical purposes, a Hang Five WAY plus...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=463
Davis Straub's "Oz Report" Conflict of Interest

Bob Kuczewski - 2011/02/12 06:56:36 UTC

A third Director (who I'll call "Mr. X") chimed in that same day with this:

Mr. X wrote:
Perhaps a strongly worded letter from Tim will do the trick. We can't force Tad to work within the USHPA framework but we can make it unpleasant and expensive for him if he chooses to makes derogatory and false statements about USHPA to the FAA he can't back up.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

...and got summarily lifetime banned from the sport with no whisper of a hint of justification just for trying to stop USHGA from doing stupid illegal shit which was killing people a lot quicker than Eric went. And you motherfuckers hate USHGA almost as much as I do. But I'm not a "FELLOW" pilot so fuck me and anybody you think MIGHT be me and keep shooting and kicking at me every chance you get.

I'm REALLY sorry that Eric paid such a horrendous price for getting a little too cute with a hang glider but I'm not seeing why anybody should be viewing that as as much of a tragedy as some fifteen year old kid doing the same thing to himself by miscalculating a dive into the shallow end.

This guy:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU

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for the purpose of the exercise got every bit as quaded as Eric did - but I don't see you assholes doing shit to fix the problems. I've been watching you total fucking assholes not doing shit to fix those problems - or even adopt the fixes that people with functional brains have handed you on silver platters - for DECADES.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/09/26 13:12:13 UTC

Hey peanuts...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Dennis Wood - 2010/05/29 07:24:39 UTC

what i was referring to was that for some reason, sometimes people didn't get the pin BETWEEN the lines (normal), and instead got it beside the loop. also check the release (the one we're talking about) to make sure it is engaged before signaling to initiate launch sequence. the straight pin would sometimes just slip open by itself. but that was Aerotow's itteration. don't know if i have seen Steve's yet.

as to who/what an "Aerotow" is, he was a dangle kite jumper with a SEVERE case of OCD and myopia who made BobK appear to be a wallflower. his posts would go on for months repeating hisself, convinced his was the only way. also rube goldberg incarnate. the straight pin was the only simple/pure advocacy he had, if it was indeed his.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

Amazing how when this topic comes up every time you see people argue the same arguments over and over again. It has been a classic (although niche) endless Internet flame topic.

I suspect that some of the parties that have posted in threads like these before are refraining now since they have learned that it is nearly (completely?) impossible to change people's minds on the topic.

For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.

Fuck you.

Kite Strings

instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

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