Miguel,Mike Bilyk - 2013/08/21 21:00:01 UTC
Instead of asking a forum a serious question, I would ask my instructor at the flying field.
Please don't hurt/kill yourself listening to a keyboard pilot.
Jeez Mike!Mike Lake - 2014/09/30 22:32:27 UTC
A bit quiet is this thread. Anyone know what happened?
Dave Pendzick - 2014/09/24 20:04:57 UTC
DAMN... That sucks. I wonder what happened? Maybe a dust devil or something...
It was a dust devel or something...Dave Pendzick - 2014/09/30 17:33:27 UTC
There may have been a dust devel or some other weird factor that could have contributed to this.
Give it a fuckin' rest ferchrisake!Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
Brian Scharp - 2014/10/03 19:44:56 UTC
A nearly complete lock-down if it weren't for those pesky reporters.
Oh good, you're ending your lines, sentences, whatever the hell they are with single commas instead of strings of periods. You're getting closer, keep working on it.Jason Boehm - 2014/10/03 20:00:12 UTC
nothing is locked down,
no information, no discussion,
And still nobody seems to give a flying fuck. I guess the perptrators figured out that if you can get away with blaming everything on air devils you can get away just as effectively and way easier by saying nothing. Hell, worked just fine for Sam Kellner...Brian Scharp - 2014/10/03 20:22:18 UTC
That's the definition.
Yeah Kinsley, focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Go to the website of any/every aerotow operation you can think of and/or find and focus very carefully on what's being said about the focal point of the safe towing system.Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was spawned. Or to Blue Sky - http://www.blueskyhg.com/ - Steve Wendt's operation. He's exceptionally knowledgeable...Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Hell, he's the one who signed off Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's instructor rating.Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC
BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.
Lo and behold. When you strip out all the Dr. Trisa Tilletti mumbo-jumbo bullshit, the USHGA SOPs - protested by NO ONE - are saying EXACTLY what Tad had been saying years before.The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2013/01/23
12. Standard Operating Procedure
10. Towing/Aerotowing Administration
09. Aerotow Pilot Appointment (ATP)
-B. Aerotow Equipment Guidelines
The USHPA recommends that a nominal 1G (combined operating weight of the glider and pilot) weak link be used, when placed at one end of a hang glider pilot's V-bridle; or about 1.5-2G if placed at the apex of the tow bridle or directly in-line with the tow rope.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
Please tell me again what's wrong with the wheel? Why you keep trying to reinvent it?
Yes, please fall back on the "I'm just saying they could be stronger" bull when you've made it quite clear that anything lower than cable (1200lb) is acceptable.
The simple fact is that you're not improving the system.
You're trying to make it more convenient and trying to convince yourself that you should be towing with a stronger weaklink.
Enjoy your delusion.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
They don't have THEIR flying days, downtubes, gliders, faces, lives destroyed by being dumped into stalls when the fishing line pops. You should've been focusing carefully on what folks who...Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC
Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.
...ARE TOWED a lot have to say - and, more importantly, ARE DOING.Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC
I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
Oh.combat.is.hell - 2014/10/11 15:10:51 UTC
Sweden
He cannot stay on tow because he is using a two-point weak link on a one point towbar. Funny that you are unable to see it, bozo.
-
Wills Wing T2C, AEROS Combat 2009, Mosquito NRG
Where to begin...
http://ozreport.com/12.083Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 06:02:32 UTC
Casa Grande, Arizona
We were launching in light cross winds. I got on the cart but noticed that the back was too high. I ignored it and off we went. Then the glider was stuck to the cart. I finally jiggled it off the cart, but zoomed right up and blew the weaklink. Now I had to land down wind or cross wind. I tried hard as I could to get the glider to turn into the wind, but no luck (as I was only twenty feet high). So I just flared at the last second and that worked, although I was covered in dust.
I was not the only one breaking weaklinks as it seemed for a while every third pilot was having this problem. You've got to get the keel cradle set right.
Back on the cart again after a clean up and this time through the dust and into the air only to be knocked off the tug (I pulled the release) at 600'. The tug was going one way and I was going the other.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Davis Straub - 2008/04/25 05:11:39 UTC
A novice competition flex wing pilot broke a weaklink on his second tow very low and got off at 300' on his tow. So that was further discouragement.
...that common sense adjustments...Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...are being made?michael170 - 2012/08/17 17:01:40 UTC
Zack, let me see if I understand your logic.
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
Got a shitload of real pros running these shows - don't we, Combat?Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
38-14315michael170 - 2014/10/12 04:20:08 UTC
During the unsuccessful tow he's using a single loop of fishing string engaging a Koch two stage knock-off...
Yeah...Any idea why he doesn't double loop the weak link and at least give himself a better chance of staying ON tow?
If a solo glider doubles the weak link the Dragonfly can stall.Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug.
51-44616Latter in the video he's using a ridiculously long bridle engaging a ridiculously long weak link and a barrel "release" on only one end of the bridle.
Nonissue...Any idea how he's going to get OFF tow if the bridle or the weak link wraps on the towline carabiner?
Thin stuff doesn't won't do that...Davis Straub - 2005/05/03
Bob Lane said that Quest Air sold over forty of their bridles (and Bob sold fifteen or twenty) during the Nationals. The Quest Air bridles use thicker Spectra and are designed not to whip around and accidentally tie themselves to the carabineer. Bob says his bridles will not do this either.
HANG GLIDING FOR BEGINNER PILOTS
By Peter Cheney
Published by Matt Taber
Official Flight Training Manual of the U. S. Hang Gliding Association
Towing equipment
- Hook knife: A hook knife is a razor-sharp cutting tool that can slash through lines in an instant. You should never tow without one - in an emergency, you can use it to cut the tow-line or bridle. The hook knife must be mounted on your harness so that you can reach it quickly and easily.
- OP, where did you learn to spell areo? Same place your buddy Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney learned to spell...Orion Price - 2014/10/12 05:29:07 UTC
Michael170, where do you areo tow in norcal?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971Jim Rooney - 2005/08/31 23:46:25 UTC
As with many changes in avaition, change is approached with a bit of skepticism. Rightfully so. There's something to be said for "tried and true" methods... by strapping on somehting new, you become a test pilot. The unknown and unforseen become your greatest risk factors. It's up to each of us to individually asses the risks/rewards for ourselves.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35893Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
The reason it sticks?
Trail and error.
...avaition, somehting, unforseen, trail?Jim Rooney - 2014/01/28 10:32:59 UTC
Some have worked it out, generally through a lot of trail and error, but they were never taught it.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31432Swift - 2014/09/23 21:08:00 UTC
Weren't you the fellow that was going to do some high tech testing of different weak links and releases?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39347Swift - 2014/09/25 14:59:03 UTC
Hey Bill C, before this thread gets locked down maybe OP should answer the question of weak link testing as previously promised? Comments on a picture taken out of content might be funnier if OP had not previously promised something of substance on the issue and failed to deliver.
Swift - 2014/09/28 16:37:50 UTC
But Tad was right all along. Long time insiders are now using 200lb test weak links. Op Op should have been writing an apology instead of a weak (link) cheap shot.
- What's the problem, OP? A little sensitive 'cause you too are too much of a stupid pro toad twat...Steve Davy - 2014/10/01 04:07:27 UTC
Thought it would be prudent to read the forum rules in order to learn if a moratorium exists prohibiting links to Kite Strings.
There isn't, so here is a direct link to Tad Eareckson's reply to Op Op:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6764.html#p6764
It's pretty much physically impossible for a tow pilot to takes you over something you can't get out from. You'll be fine.Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC
Nail on the head Brian!
The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.
Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not. BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot. It is one of the cardinal rules of towing. Again, "I wana believe" rationalization.
Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimum three orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.
16-11120Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...double loop of 130 pound Greenspot - about the same tension a single loop of the 200 pound Greenspot many of us recently decided we were happy with. And, obviously, there's a three strand weak link on the bridle to make sure the tow mast breakaway doesn't break away. So there's no fuckin' way you're gonna be subjected to the kinds of tensions that could cause any significant loss of control back there.Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
25-13402Jim Rooney - 2012/05/28 11:49:58 UTC
Guys
Your questions hold the answers.
What you're writing about and what your seeing are two very different things.
Your theories are what are doing you in.
What you're talking about is coming out of the cart too early and not having enough flying speed.
What you're watching is Davis coming out of the cart at Mach5.
He is absolutely no where near coming out too slow!
I've said it before, I'll say it a million times... a 582 tug is NOT the same thing as a 914.
Using 582 techniques on a 914 will put you in the shit.
All this "hang onto the cart till it's flying" stuff is fine for 582s. It is NOT for 914s.
Why?
In a word... propwash.
I'm not kidding.
It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash. It's an afterthough... a footnote.
Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.
I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks. We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).
Crosswinds of course make a huge difference. But again, we see the propwash... it's clear as day. Sometimes we can even steer around it (that's an other topic though).
The reason I make such a big deal about the difference between the 582s and the 914s is because behind a 582, you're still on the ground when you hit the propwash. You're rolling on the cart and you roll right on through it. No big deal.
So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.
Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.
And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?
Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.
Lessee...Weak Link
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
...protection against overloading? Just kidding.Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
SOLE purpose?Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC
Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.
Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.
Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
That was never even ONE of the purposes.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.
This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
Yeah, you very blindingly obviously ARE *ALL* total fucking morons.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)
I have little time for these people.
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.
A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.
For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717Mark Knight - 2013/07/04
My calculations and test suggest the 200 lb. is right for me. I weigh 185 pounds, fly a T2 154 (75 lbs), and my harness fully loaded is 35 pounds. Total all up flying weight is 185 + 75+ 35 = 295 lbs. Times 1.4 = 413. I use Pro tow barrel release so divide by 2 = 206.5. I feel the White and purple is a good fit for me.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC
Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.
And with this "change", majorly upwardwise, in the accepted standards and practices, with more and more people deciding they're happy with two hundred - and hopefully up so's everybody flies at a minimum of one and a half Gs - everybody and his dog will have no choice but to concede that you're all total fucking morons. And that - thanks to the danger of never being able to alter or retract anything once it's gone out on the web - is how history will judge and remember you.Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC
I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.
