Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC

Nail on the head Brian!

The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.

Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not. BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot. It is one of the cardinal rules of towing. Again, "I wana believe" rationalization.

Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimum three orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.

No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink.

- So what's a "standard" weak link?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

Didn't the definition of a standard weak link change the nanosecond Morningside decided that they were happy with two hundred?

- Sounds to me like Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden...

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

...is scared to fly with standard weak links. Sounds to me like the stupid bitch...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear).

...is really happy to have them not function and is taking actions to reduce that probability...

They are a good thing to have, though!!

...despite the fact that they're a good thing to have!

They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not.

Sounds to me like she says she's not but deep down inside she really is. And Lauren, as we all agree...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218
rules

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC

Yeesh. Tad is right on one count. I DO wish I had never posted. I was just so happy about getting my tandem rating and being able to share my love of flying with the general public.

Some pilots recently wrote me and told me that Tad was trying get my ratings and Dustin's revoked because of my post. They said he was trying to stir up support on another forum for this cause (because I have not filed an incident report).

Jim Rooney - 2008/05/04 22:34:14 UTC

The arrogance of this makes me sick. You've got to be kidding me.
Tad, you're on notice.
This is normal training. Just because you don't agree with it does not give you any right.
Trying to tear down two exceptional pilots in the name of your petty crusade... vile. Just vile.
We don't need it.

...is an exceptional pilot - on par with Dustin Martin (who was checking her out for her tandem rating at the time).

http://ozreport.com/17.114
Apology to Lauren Tjaden

Davis Straub - 2013/06/07 13:40:06 UTC
Quest Air

Paul Tjaden said he would appreciate an apology from me for calling his wife the weak link at Quest Air. I apologize.

- The purpose of the weak link increase the safety of the towing operation...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...PERIOD. Right? No other function, right? And there's no downside whatsoever to using a really light one, right? Just...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...a bit of inconvenience...

027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png


http://live.staticflickr.com/2928/14422781117_a4a3b72ee6_o.png
053-03828

...every now and then. So the only possible reason any competent responsible individual...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

...could have for being happy with one weak link over another is that it's a more effective safety device, right? Apparently a lot of people are happier with Tad-O-Links than they are with Rooney Links. In other words, they decided they were unhappy with 130. And when you're unhappy with a safety device that means you're afraid of it, right? You're afraid of it because it's dangerous, right?

Like if somebody died after his parachute blew apart you'd expect many of us to decide we'd be happier with something with a higher capacity, more robust. Right?

BTW, this weaklink as a lifeline comment... any tow pilot that takes you over something you can't get out from should be shot.

06-05924
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3953/15505566842_37e250a5c7_o.png

07-10000
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3948/15505948715_15b7534629_o.png

08-10705
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3935/15482790176_c809ba37f4_o.png

09-11009
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3930/15319033639_86a2bf094b_o.png

10-11100
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3934/15319212610_64084bec4e_o.png

11-11101
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2948/15319259618_e841353568_o.png

16-11120
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15319210690_6aca350313_o.png


Hey, I'm all for shooting a lot of tug drivers - particularly Dragonfly jockeys - but how are we defining "can't get out from"? Alive? Uninjured? Without crashing?

This fuckin' Dragonfly douchebag towed Thomas - knowing goddam well he was using a Rooney Link that can blow at any time with the glider straight and level - over a situation he couldn't get out of without crashing. Any chance we can shoot him?

How 'bout...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 02:31:37 UTC

The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.

...Mark Frutiger? He knew he was towing Zack on known total shit equipment into really dangerous air that Zack wasn't gonna get out of alive enough to matter.

Joel Froehlich? He tows Benn Dunn up on the same shit equipment into the same unstable air that had just killed Zack Marzec but he doesn't get a fifty dollar fine because Ben Dunn...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...manages to pull out just in time?

How 'bout the asshole who towed John Claytor into a fifteen plus / ninety cross at Ridgely on 2014/06/02? He couldn't get out of that one without getting his neck severely bent. And his career has been on hold at minimum ever since. (And not one of you Ridgely / Capitol Club motherfuckers have breathed a syllable of his name since shortly after impact.)

Danny Drag-'N-Fly Lange who towed into air he himself wouldn't fly in if he could see it Joe Julik who was killed instantly as a consequence?

How 'bout the Dragonfly asshole who towed Shannon Moon up for the last flight of her hang gliding career at Quest on 2010/05/09? Because Quest had done its usual shit job of qualifying her to land she couldn't get out of that field without a chopper...



...without two broken and permanently damaged arms.

The anonymous Forbes Dragonfly jockey who just three quarters killed new student Steven Tinoson and isn't talking to ANYBODY about it?

But all these people had Industry Standard "releases" and Rooney Link instant hands free releases for situations which required them to release. And that's where the tug pilot's concern for the safety of his passenger begins and ends.

P.S. Care to talk about shooting tandem thrill ride pilots who don't hook themselves in and dangle from basetubes while diving their passengers into powerlines?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Must be something to this - I notice you didn't correct your good friend when he made this statement.

So have the many of us now using two hundred also been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who?

How long is plenty long enough? To get a Hang Four you just need 80 flying days, 250 flights, 75 hours - so I'm assuming it must be many multiples of that to properly qualify for two hundred. Multiply everything by ten? That good enough?

Obviously one also needs to be fully qualified as a pro toad but that can be handled in the course of a short clinic at Blue Sky.

Maybe you could give us a list of names to help us get started on the who's who angle. Davis Dead-On Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Steve Quiet-Amusement Kroop, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Dennis Excellent-Book Pagen, Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden, Matt We-Do-Not-Warrant-This-Gear-As-Suitable-For-Towing-Anything Taber, Malcolm It-Is-Almost-Impossible-To-Stall-Under-Aerotow Jones, Bart No-Stress-Because-I-Was-High Weghorst, Mark You-Have-No-Idea-What-Happened Knight, Dr. Trisa Numerous-Aerotow-Operators-Across-The-County Tilletti... No brainers. But they wouldn't even scratch the surface. It would REALLY help if we could find out...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.

...who the few people who are actually working on things are. Like the ones who first decided they were happy with two hundred. I'd consider it an honor and a privilege to suck their dicks. And that should cover my bases if I hafta know who's who in the biblical sense.

And I don't have the slightest clue in the what's what department - aside, of course...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

...from doing pushups over the winter. I'd always thought it was just a matter of using an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less, staying inside the Cone of Safety, pushing way the fuck out if I ever find myself too low or need to actuate my instant hands free release, always thanking my tug pilot for intentionally releasing me - even if I'd felt I could have ridden it out - to give him a vote of confidence that he'd made a good decision in the interest of my safety.

It so would help if this stuff were incorporated in the USHGA Aerotowing SOPs. Right now they just recommend 1.5 Gs. For Yours Truly that's damn near twice what I was getting off of the Davis Link that everybody was forced to be happy with before. The two hundred puts me a bit under 1.1 Gs and I'm guaranteed to eventually scare myself with just that much unless/until I start getting up to speed on all this stuff.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hey Steve...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

To:
Davis Straub; Tow Group
Cc:
Rohan Holtkamp; Paris Williams
Subject:
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more: Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this .

A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

Summary

Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions
Weak links are there to protect the equipment
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA

I guess that now that stronglink use has spread from "the best of the best" to "many of us" we should be seeing no change whatsoever in aerotow launch crashes but a pretty stiff increase in equipment damage, right?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Lin Lyons - 2014/01/01 22:28:53 UTC

Once you're in a whipstall, to recover from it, your center of gravity has to be on the side of the glider that you want to be down. If you're thrown up against the sail, you'll tumble. Luff lines will help by a few inches, but probably not a lot more. The Extreme Whipstall video that we've all seen is probably about the limit, with recovery still possible. Note that while the pilot's feet hit the keel, he's kept his body near the base tube. Had he not done that, I think he'd have tumbled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

Oh. So we've got this video of a glider standing on its tail and going up like a rocket until its nondesignated weak link breaks (at a tension below what the designated weak link would've done). Then it whip inconveniences, tucks enough to throw the pilot negative, and pulls out. Totally clear what happened, why, no disagreement.

But when Zack Marzec gets blasted up by a monster thermal while using a pro toad bridle which gives him about zero ability to hold the pitch attitude and angle of attack down below trim, blows the DESIGNATED weak link and maybe tail tailslides and definitely whip inconveniences, tucks, tumbles, and splatters...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.

Thanks,
Mark Frutiger

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

...nobody's got any fuckin' clue what happened. Freak mystery accident. Hang gliding's Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. 'Cept while the cost of that one's search and investigation has been going on for the better part of eight months and will be costing hundreds of millions of dollars all the effort on ours has been to obscure and deny the blindingly fuckin' obvious from Day One.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

And yet NOT ONE SINGLE GLIDER anywhere on the planet has gone with what YOU want. They are, in fact...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

...doing the precise opposite. And...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

...they're happy with it.

And NOBODY any more gives a flying fuck about your OPINION or what YOU want US to have.

Don't like it? Tough titties. You WILL be towing two hundred - you malignant lying little shit.

P.S. And if you start losing towlines, which you WILL any time you get into a load situation...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

...you're gonna be kissing your moronic despicable tow mast breakaway protector bye-bye. Don't like it? Tough titties.

P.P.S. Lemme rephrase that...

Don't like it? Suck my dick.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time.

When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.

That's OK, Paul. We've got a few people who AREN'T sleazy, lying, incompetent, criminally negligent, ass covering pigfuckers to shed light on your "ACCIDENT".

The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude...

Oh. Approximately fifty feet in ALTITUDE. So it wasn't DEPTH. Y'all were towing ABOVE the surface that afternoon. Just keep throwing in extra verbose bullshit like that. If you're lucky we may all fall asleep before we become fully aware of what a load of crap you're trying to feed us.

...when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift...

Yeah. Extremely strong LIFT...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

A THERMAL - just as Mark reported.

Also...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/09 02:31:37 UTC

The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field. I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.

...it wasn't so fucking extremely strong that just one of your tuggies - one who I'm pretty sure hadn't had a whole helluva lot of experience at Quest - hadn't encountered stuff as strong or stronger just leaving the field before.

Also, kids, notice that this is two days after Paul's bullshit report, after everybody's gotten straight on the official story, and Mark's talking about "turbulance levels" and "mechanical mixing" for the first time. Prior to that everything's smooth as glass.

...elevating it quickly and abruptly.

But NOT bouncing it around, rocking it, doing anything that necessitated any corrective control input worth mentioning.

...it was a few seconds later when Zach's...

ZACK's glider? It wasn't somebody else's glider? How come you need to remind us that it was Zack's glider but never refer to Mark's tow plane - or mention Mark's name at all? Has he got something to hide? Or are you worried he will in the future?

"Welcome to Quest everybody! Today your tow plane pilot will be Mark Frutiger. He's only had one guy killed behind him. Not a single glider pilot more than Bobby Bailey has racked up. And Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit!"

...glider entered the same strong lift...

Yeah. The SAME strong LIFT.

...and he was...

And he was? You needed to put those words in for absolute clarity?

...at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude...

In ALTITUDE? So we're still talking ABOVE the surface. Thanks Paul, that's good to know.

...at this time.

At WHAT time? Didn't you just say "a few seconds later"? Is there some other time involved at this stage of things? Is USHGA paying you by the word?

When the lift/turbulence was encountered...

What? Lift and turbulence are synonyms at Quest? Is that what you fuckin' douchebags teach? You JUST SAID:

...when Zach's glider entered THE SAME STRONG *LIFT*...

The same strong LIFT that ELEVATED Mark quickly and abruptly with NO PROBLEMS...

...the weak link on the tow line broke...

Liar. The weak link was on his bridle and you bloody well know it. If you WEREN'T trying to con us you'd have just said "the weak link broke" and everyone and his dog would've known what you were talking about. And, of course, the FAR states:

...at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle...

...so the bullshit you're feeding us obscures that flagrant violation.

...as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack.

BULLSHIT.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

The weak link on Zack's pro toad BRIDLE broke AFTER the glider CLIMBED high and to the right at a very high PITCH ATTITUDE. And your implication is that he's only climbed to level with the tug in that "turbulence".

Apparently, the glider stalled...

- APPARENTLY the glider stalled?

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

...when the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack? Is there some way it could NOT stall...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...under those circumstances?

- Well, of course! The glider was at a very high angle of attack. While it was ON tow. It's AMAZING it wasn't stalled THEN.

...or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled...
OR it POSSIBLY did a short tail slide and THEN stalled. It was flying fine before and while it was doing the short tail slide but AFTER THAT it stalled. That's the point at which things started getting a bit problematic.

...and then nosed down...

Really? It nosed down after a stall? The one it went into after the tail slide? And it wasn't nosing down DURING the tail slide? If not then how did it get out of the tail slide?

...and tumbled.

Oh. So you can tumble after a Quest Link breaks if the nose of the glider is pitched way the fuck up. And here I was thinking that it was just an inconvenience. Well, I guess if you're high enough to toss a 'chute a tumble is just an inconvenience. Was he high enough?

Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Guess not. Well, I guess it also depends a lot on how broadly you define inconvenience.

Beyond these facts...

OH! Those were all FACTS.

- At approximately fifty feet the tug hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly.

- A few seconds later Zack's glider entered the same strong lift at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at that time. (And started being at altitudes estimated to be less than 100 to 150 feet after that time.)

- The weak link Quest has been perfecting for twenty years broke with the glider pitched way the fuck up.

- The glider stalled, tumbled twice, and slammed in.

Do I have that right, Paul? Does any of that misrepresent what you're presenting as FACTS?

...anything else would be pure speculation.

What the fuck more do we need, Paul? If the ground had been a bit softer he might have lived a bit longer?

I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble.

Well that's great, Paul. But we already have the FACTS. But as long is you're going into idiot babbling mode I'd like to ask a few questions...
- Have you ever had any weak link breaks that were neither high nor low, altitude events?
- How 'bout:
-- BEFORE or WHILE hitting turbulence? It seems all the weak link breaks have happened when there was nothing going on.
-- while dicking around trying to cleat a VG line in violent THERMAL conditions while flying with a pro toad bridle?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wingover and flew back to the field to drop the line and then relaunched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Have you ever had a weak link break while getting slammed by a THERMAL? If so was there a RECOVERY period? A recovery period during which you were STALLED and losing altitude and would've been totally fucked if you'd been low?

- I didn't hear you say anything about lockouts. I thought the whole idea behind weak links was to...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air.

...have it break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but be strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. Are you sure you're tying them properly so that they break consistently and perform in accordance with our expectations?

- How 'bout when there was no "turbulence" going on at any point during the tow? Have you ever had that happen? Or are you the only person on the planet who's flown a Quest Link more than half a dozen times and haven't?

- Have you ever HEARD of Quest Links breaking when there was absolutely nothing going on?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).

Have you ever had anything like that happen with anybody...

04-10821
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5040/14001150629_0912a4297e_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7401/14001202297_344c992ab1_o.png
05-10822

...at Quest?

11-14123
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7420/14001159008_76f80fcb29_o.png

I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems.

Oh great! So now tell us about the countless others you've witnessed that HAVE had serious problems. THIS:

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

wasn't seriously problematic? What a total bullshit statement.

We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly.

Great. You also train aerotow pilots how to handle foot landings...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

am home now. will see ortho in the next few days. hopefully the damn thing will stay in joint so i can skip surgery. much better with the pain now it's back in joint. looking at maybe 6-8 weeks currently.

anyhow will be ok. pretty crappy day and it doesn't do much for the typing either.

So I guess they all know how to react properly and never have...



...any serious problems.

Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence...

The strong low level turbulence you made up?

...probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida...

A dust devil so fuckin' huge that...

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

...Mark was able fly straight into it, pull Zack 250 feet behind him into it, and remain in while Zack rocketed up, blew the focal point of Quest's perfect safe towing system, tumbled twice, and fatally impacted. So it had to have a diameter of well over five hundred feet and it didn't pick up any shit whatsoever...

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

...or demolish the airport and nobody's sure if there actually WAS a dust devil. Sure Paul.

...the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

There's the problem, Paul...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
-D. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

You're doing your weak link recovery training at two thousand feet in smooth air with the nose down at normal tow attitude. What you NEED to be doing is going up with a standard tandem aerotow weak link in turbulence to between one and one fifty feet and whipstalling the glider like you'd do for a dead air no stepper landing. You just need to make the simulation a little more worst case scenario so your students will learn how to react more properly.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.

That's OK, Paul. WE know EXACTLY what happened and WHY - just like you obviously do. And you shed TONS of light on just how much of a sleazy duplicitous motherfucker you really are.

P.S. Did you write this crap all by yourself or did Davis help you or write it for you? It totally reeks of his infuriating dodgy noncommittal style.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hey Paul...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

It's always a balancing act. It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

Whenever I hear fly people talk about something being "no fun" they mean SCARY...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=7470
Approach & Landing at LZ with uknown conditions

Carm Moreno - 2008/06/25 14:57:12 UTC

As hard as I tried it was to no avail. I had some of the best pilots to the area to follow. They could not make it back. Well, now the conditions turned more south and strong (plus 20mph and gusty). I was stuck landing at Mission in a strong south. Behind a hill and trees. Trust me it was NO fun. It was very turbulent it was everything I could to keep the glider pointing forward. I finally got down safely and kissed the ground.

...DANGEROUS. Is that a fair statement?

Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14

This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).

Didn't you tell me personally on 2008/06/02 at Ridgely during the ECC right after Lauren had been dumped by another one straight and level behind the tug shortly after takeoff, "Those things are dangerous."?

It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

How come we didn't hear a single word on this "balancing act" of yours in your report? How come from back in the dinosaur days of Quest up through maybe 2009 we heard THIS:

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Quest Air Aerotow FAQ

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

and for competitions:

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

And now it's IMPOSSIBLE to find out what's being used just about anywhere...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2014 Big Spring Nationals Rules

2014 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Nobody seems to wanna go on the record about anything. All we get is:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31717
Weak link?

Davis Straub - 2014/08/20 19:48:26 UTC

Many of us are now using 200 lb test line from Cortland.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

But a couple things we definitely know regarding this "balancing act" of yours...

NOBODY's:
- saying or implying that Zack Marzec's Quest Link was a bit on the heavy side
- dropping down to 120 pound Greenspot

ALL weak links that are being balanced are being balanced UP and damn near all that are being balanced are being balanced WAY the fuck up.

Doesn't seem to be any more law of the land. People are just...

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.

...making shit up, playing by whatever rules they feel like, doing what they're happy with. We're rudderless, our compass is spinning. No more law of the land, anarchy, nihilism. And all this...

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

...before we even had agreement on the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot or the orange stuff many of us are now happy with.

Any comment on this trend and how it might relate to that dust devil incident you had down there?

And while you're at it...

It's always a balancing act. It's no fun having an inadvertent low weak link break when you are low so we don't want this weak link too weak.

I notice you didn't say anything about heavy Tad-O-Links being no fun. Maybe you could clue us in on the downsides of balancing up from the 130 you spent twenty years perfecting.

Asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hey Mark...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.

Given any two pro toads using Quest Links the loads on your piece o' crap tug are gonna be EXACTLY THE SAME - 260 pounds. You're not gonna feel shit when somebody's straight behind you. 260 pounds pulling sideways on the extreme end of your tail you're gonna notice.

Dumb shit.

Hey Paul...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I get pretty torqued up at the "strong weak link" advocates who come out of the woodwork when something like this happens and use it to say "see, this proves my/our point". This, in spite of not being there and only having second hand information to make this point. If you believe that fine, knock yourself out, but don't use BS like "this wouldn't have happened if only you had listened to me".

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know. I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position, particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

Must be pretty nice to be able to spew whatever moronic duplicitous crap you want out of your ass after you've killed somebody and have people gobble it down and line up behind you for more. Even better when, between mouthfuls, they're simultaneously attacking the people who know what the fuck they're doing and talking about and have your number.

And Kinsley...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

Deltaman and Zach seem to be jumping on Jim for not using facts.. while not using RELEVANT facts to make their case.. When these guys agree with themselves on a forum where they all talk to each other, (http://www.kitestrings.org/forum2.html) no big deal, but I worry that folks will read the lack of response as some sort of endorsement of these positions. Actually, if you are on the fence, but think maybe these "strong weaklink" guys have a point, please go to that forum and read through it. Then see if you want to trust your life to their theories..

We're not the ones coming out of the woodwork when shit like this happens. We're out of the woodwork ALL THE TIME and I'll address anything relevant anybody says ANYWHERE. We're doing what the magazine, clubs, and some discussion groups USED to and we're doing it WAY BETTER than anybody else ever has.

It's your Paul and Lauren Tjadens, Mark Frutigers, Malcolm Joneses, Matt Tabers, Dr. Trisa Tillettis who are deeply embedded in the woodwork and only come out when they ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO for their obfuscation based damage control exercises. And then you've got your Sam Kellner types...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1081
Platform towing /risk mitigation / accident

Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC

No, you don't get an accident report.

...who've figured out that they can get away with maiming or killing someone and not saying anything to anyone.

Try to find a comment from Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey on the Robin Strid fatality - or on anything else that's ever happened in the history of hang gliding, Keavy Nenninger and Mark Knight fatalities in particular.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/08 18:40:12 UTC

aaaaaaaand... here we go again.

Aaaaaaaand...

- You motherfuckers got your asses very solidly and very publicly DEMOLISHED.
- That was the last one - so I hope you enjoyed yourself. There's never again gonna be another one of these.

You still have plenty of Mike Bomstad caliber idiots running around loose but we control the high ground. The only way you had a prayer was to stay welded to universal one-size-fits-all 130 pound Greenspot and you couldn't afford to keep maintaining that decades old murderous scam.

And there are still gonna be plenty of Rooney Links in circulation and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31979
To toss silk....Or not???

Carole Sherrington - 2014/10/23 13:55:18 UTC

Fortunately, the weak link didn't break and present the pilot with a whipstall at thirty feet. There was an accident at my club where just such a thing happened with the pilot suffering serious chest injuries and a nasty injury to his face. A line break just a few feet lower and it would have been much worse as he would have hit the ground more nose down.

...consequently plenty of really nasty crashes, maybe another fatality with a bit 'o luck (too bad Stuart Caruk tows over water), but they're gonna increasingly be seen for what the are.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot.

The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long) and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line, it was a few seconds later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time. When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled.

Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Lessee...

- The tow aircraft is piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot.

- At approximately fifty feet he hits extremely strong lift which elevates him quickly and abruptly.

- Because of the length of the tow line, it's a few seconds later when Zack's glider enters the same strong lift at an estimated 100 to 150 feet.

- Apparently Zack simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida - a state world famous for it's lack of dustiness.

Fucking highly experienced tow pilot at fifty feet hits a PROBABLE dust devil that's gonna fatally splat the pro toad behind him within the next ten seconds, doesn't get stood on his ear, has about five seconds to assess the situation before the glider gets to the area in question, feels absolutely no need to waive off the glider / abort the tow, doesn't see so much as a gum wrapper to indicate the presence of the probable dust devil, comes out the other side smelling like a rose... And he's not really sure whether or not it was a dust devil.

You need to hire better spin doctors, Paul. Sure is a good thing you have such an astronomically stupid audience - one that gets measurably stupider by the month.

Somebody cite me one other instance of glider or tug flying below two hundred feet and not being sure about whether or not he'd flown into a dust devil.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39347
Please explain yourself without deleting me

Orion Price - 2014/10/01 00:15:56 UTC

The problem with tad:

1. He's been writing the FAA trying to get aero-tow governmently regulated according to his protocol. If you chance upon his faux scholarly-ish article about areo tow safety you will see a window into the mind of a mad man. It's like 80 pages of ASCII text drawings of his Rube Goldberg designs. He's been mailing, and emailing his article to government agencies. I'm sure his communications get filed along with alien sightings, crop circles, and perpetual motion machines the FAA receives from other crackpots. Still weird behavior.

Funny the way we seem to have all these near, mini, and moderate disasters from common circumstances that tons of people have personally experienced and everybody's familiar with but when there's a high profile fatality it's damn near always a one-offer in the same sorta realm as alien abduction and everybody is quite happy to swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Maybe I can write a dozen bizarre original fatality reports and sell them to flight parks and instructors as the need for material arises. Doesn't look like it takes much in the way of brains, thought, time, effort and gawd knows I can easily do ten times better than most of the crap I've been reading in recent years with one hand tied behind my back - or making an easy reach for something.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.

No doubt...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...whatsoever. But I'll tell ya one thing... That motherfucker's track record ain't gonna be getting any longer.

This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.

Yeah... The first year you used 80 pound Greenspot and weren't able to get any gliders off the ground. The second you went up to 100 and found you could get light gliders up with good pushes from cart monkeys, slow acceleration, and smooth conditions. After that you went all the way up to 130 and found you could get medium and heavier gliders up in rough air...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

...fifty percent of the time. Sweet spot. Just right. Not too hot, not too cold. Pure Goldilocks.

Then there was a bit o' crazy talk about stronglinks...

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.

...but, fortunately for all concerned...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

...cooler heads prevailed and you spent the next couple decades slowly refining 130.

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.

Yeah. Inconvenience. Big fucking deal.

We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

What kind of total fucking moron would suggest otherwise?

Tommy T - 2011/08/29 11:45:15 UTC

This type line always raises red flags in my head, because it's almost always the answer you get when you ask the question "Why'd you buzz that ramp or crowd", "Why are you flying with a bike helmet", "Why are you flying without a weaklink".

Hey Tommy... What part of:

We know what we're doing.

are you having so much trouble understanding?

We are told USHPA can't sell weaklinks, but can the safety committees post recommendations?

They could, but they've been too overwhelmed preparing...

http://www.ushpa.aero/safety.asp
USHPA - Safety Articles

Fatality Reports
2013/02/02 - Zack Marzec

Zack Marzec (27), an H-4 Pilot with Aero Tow and Tandem Aero Tow proficiency as well as Advanced Instructor and Tandem Instructor appointments, and a USHPA member since 2009, suffered fatal injuries when when his glider tumbled during an aero tow launch. During the launch, at an altitude of 150 AGL, the pilot encountered an invisible bullet thermal which pitched the nose up, causing the weak link to break. Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice. The pilot and glider's leading edge hit the ground simultaneously. The pilot was utilizing his own pro-tow style tow harness, this own high performance glider with VG on, and was not wearing a full face helmet.

...fatality reports the past few years.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC

You've got to be kidding me.
You're equating rationalizations of reckless behaviour to differentiations of experience?

Yeah Tommy! Ramp buzzing, bicycle...

http://ozreport.com/9.008
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/10

He kept doing a wing over to the left and dove straight into the ground from about fifty feet. He was killed immediately. I heard the infamous words - salad bowl with string.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

...helmets, using a release with a pin bent so badly that...

18-092710
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15620367745_50560f4687_o.png


...you need two hands to pry it open under normal tow tensions, deliberately flying on...

09-1116
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8203/29011379445_8956477e20_o.png


[img]https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7513/28394387553_e88dc304f8_o.png[/url]
16-1406

...a critically frayed towline...

Sorry if you can't see the difference.

Yeah. Ferchrisake!

"I know what I'm doing" and "I know what I'm talking about" are two very different statements.

Geez Tommy!!! You can't see that "I know what I'm doing" and "I know what I'm talking about" are two very different statements? One's DOING and the other's TALKING ABOUT! Just what kind of moron are you?

I never told you to take me at my word.

No, he's told you that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

...if you don't like his word you can go fuck yourself.

I said I'm sick to death of inexperienced people arguing with experienced people.

Well, you won't be having that problem any more.

It boggles my mind.

As does two plus two equals four.

Have a look at Bill's post above... do you think that I'm going to argue with him about payout/trucktowing/etc?

Would "etc" include scooter?

Hell no. That's not my gig... and it is his.

Yeah, you certainly couldn't expect a PROFESSIONAL PILOT to be able to extrapolate anything he knows about aerotowing to truck towing - even if he does run scooter operations in which...

Blue Sky Scooter Towing
Scooter Tow Video

More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System

But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

...in that particular cases he uses a standard weak link like we would for aerotow, uh, 130 greenline, 130 pound test.

So you've never truck towed?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3035
Tad's Barrel Release and maybe an alternative

Jim Rooney - 2008/02/14 01:37:28 UTC

(3 tows/year) The crux of everything Tad says here.
He is the ultimate sideline quarterback.

Yet he is constantly insulting and condescending to anyone that doesn't agree with his assumptions and conclusions.... which are based on a horrible lack of experience.

It baffles me that people even listen to him.

I first truck towed on 1990/05/14 - a dozen years before you first blighted the sport - and have thirty-four of them under my belt. And you're a PROFESSIONAL PILOT? Maybe it's actually YOU who has the horrible lack of experience. I'm thinking there's just so much you can learn driving a Dragonfly up and down all season long year after year.

I sit back and take notes.

Maybe you could publish them for us sometime - along with the insights lost to those of us with less keen intellects.

Any questions I have are about him clearing things up for me... not the other way around and certainly not for an argument.

No, of course not. If one single douchebag who says he's got truck tow experience says something it's obviously spot on, not open to question or discussion, even if he isn't a professional pilot.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/29 14:52:06 UTC

You apparently have not been following my articles on the co-chairman of the USHPA Safety and Training Committee.
Actually this would come from the Towing Committee. You have heard from Steve Kroop (through others) here.

Yeah, let's take a look at that...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

To:
Davis Straub; Tow Group
Cc:
Rohan Holtkamp; Paris Williams
Subject:
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

You are completely correct about weak links and lockouts. If I can beat the horse a little more: Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster. The pilot activating his or her releases is their way to save themselves. A perfect analogy is the circuit breaker in your home, it is there to protect the wire not what you plug into the wall socket. If anyone does not believe me they can plug their car retrieve 2-way radio into the wall socket and watch it go up in flames with the circuit breaker cumfortably remaining in the on position (I hope no one really tries this .

A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.

On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.

Summary

Do not attempt to aerotow unless you have received proper training
Do not attend an aerotow comp if you do not have considerable experience flying a comp class glider in comp class conditions
Weak links are there to protect the equipment
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot

Best regards, Steve - Flytec USA

Wow. From reading that...

Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...I get the impression that Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's statement about this stuff having been slowly refined over decades is total bullshit. Sounds to me like somebody just pulled a flavor of fishing line out of his ass, declared it to be the ideal one-size-fits-all wheel, and force fed it to a bunch of muppets programmed to do what they're told by people pretending to know what they're doing and talking about. And then you've got the best of the best deciding they're happy with something a lot heavier and having zero reported incidents.

Also sounds like nobody has any fuckin' clue as to actual breaking strengths of anything.

What's your take on that, Davis?