100% strongly agree that, "This was a good location for this event."
"Best flying conditions of any comp this season." "Big Spring has the best comp conditions in the USA." "Great hangar space. Great locations for briefings, with wi-fi !! Friendly airport staff." "Conditions are the best in the world for race to goal." "Best location in the World." "Big Spring has consistently proven to be the most reliable location for big XC flights. The huge open airport provides a safe launch area and the flatlands provides endless landing opportunities. This makes the location suitable for lesser experienced pilots." "Facilities were great, the conditions for flying once off the ground were great, the routes and landing options were great. Strong cross wind launches in thermic conditions were the only negative aspect."
100% strongly agree or agree that, "Launch/Tow was organized and efficient". "So fast. Very safe. Mike Degtoff and his crew are great. Trikes were wonderful in addition to the Dragonflies. Russell and Lori are the best."
There was no retrieval offered (as is the case in all hang gliding competitions), but pilots stated: "The information to allow pilots to group together into retrieve groups was made available in a timely manner and worked well." "Retrieve is typically not offered but the organizers were extremely helpful in finding drivers and helping pilots who needed drivers."
More results soon.
Big Spring has consistently proven to be the most reliable location for big XC flights. The huge open airport provides a safe launch area and the flatlands provides endless landing opportunities. This makes the location suitable for lesser experienced pilots.
What? No narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place in which the advanced guys could hone their skills?
Strong cross wind launches in thermic conditions were the only negative aspect.
To start with I have to mention that it is my opinion that when we start out on a line, whether it is surfing a wave, starting the roll down a trail on a mountain bike or launching a hang glider on a dolly, the start of the movement lacks good control until some speed is gathered to gain that control. At that point, the surfer, rider or pilot has the control to "fix" the track, make a correction and things work out fine. This was not the case on that day.
There are a couple of things that could have been changed and in hindsight; these may have avoided this incident. I felt that my angle of attack was too high, but thought that the powerful tug would pull me through the vulnerable phase of the roll without incident. Secondly, I should have waited for a wind cycle that was lesser in velocity and more from the direction that we were towing toward. Competitions don't really afford the time for a pilot to select a launch cycle or wait for conditions to improve.
At the instant that the roll commenced a gust of wind from the left occurred and lifted my left wing. I still had hold of the tubing in the cart as the left front wheel lifted. The dolly was going to the right. I must have released my hold on the left tubing to settle the cart level. At that point in time, my speed bar shifted to the right at about a 20 degree angle settling the inner portion of the speed bar onto the right chock and increasing the bank angle to the right as I was accelerating. The lowered position of my feet may have restricted my input of shifting my legs to the left to counteract the banking to the right. I pushed out to release myself and the glider from the cart. At this point the angle was increasing and the right wing tip hit the ground. My head was at about chest high, accelerating in what could be described as a low level lock-out, with no good control. I saw that I was going to hit the ground nearly head first and balled-up for impact. I hit hard, the weak-link broke and I broke the left down tube and the glider rolled on the right leading edge transitioning to the left leading edge before coming to rest kind of backward.
I impacted the ground on the right side of my helmet and right shoulder simultaneously, then sliding on my left side to a stop. I had pain in my right shoulder and collar bone, lower neck, left scapula and center of my back. I elected to just take it easy for a few days and I flew again the following Friday. I had intended to fly the task, but once I was in the air, it became apparent that I would not be fit for flight after up to three hours. I landed at the airport after 30 minutes. The next day (Saturday) I flew for about 40 minutes before the competition pilots would launch. Still pretty sore. The following Tuesday (6/10/14) I serious pain in my back at work and decided to go to the hospital for some test. At the hospital I had several x-rays and then a CT scan. They found that I did not have any fractures but I was complaining of the symptoms commensurate with a compressed or damaged disk. They prescribed muscle relaxer, opiate pain reliever and a steroid to reduce swelling. So far so good. I feel that this incident could have had a more serious outcome and I am glad that I was not injured any more than I was.
Big fuckin' deal. The important thing was that a good time was had by all. Let's hear it for the Safety Committee.
100% strongly agree or agree that, "Launch/Tow was organized and efficient". "So fast. Very safe. Mike Degtoff and his crew are great. Trikes were wonderful in addition to the Dragonflies. Russell and Lori are the best."
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
So I take it that many more of us are now happier with the 200 than they were with the 130? Despite the extreme danger to which the Dragonflies and trikes were subjected?
A 1G weak link would have produced the same results.
Or a ten G weak link. A weak link on a glider isn't any more a release than an airbag in a steering column is a disk braking system. Much less, arguably.
Tommy Thompson - 2014/11/10 17:23:31 UTC
Brian, that was a H1 pilot towed by low&slow scooter.
I never got my head around low&slow...
Tommy Thompson, Sr. - Whitewater - 72254 - H4 - 2004/04/28 - Brad Kushner - AT FL LGO TAT FSL TUR
You've got a tandem aerotow rating and you can't get your head wrapped around low and slow? I got news for ya, Tommy. I can name you three tandem gliders - six people - killed 'cause they were low and slow on aero. Went to the funeral of one of them.
I'd think they Had some type of tow force control ,...
Ya think? Is there some part of that video that I missed in which it's hard to understand exactly what's going on?
swift may be correct
He MAY be? According to Quest all solo gliders weigh 260 pounds. Was there some part of the video prior to impact in which it appeared that the tension was much/any more than half that? Go ahead. Give us another one of your opinions.
Yeah I should have released... I was just learning to tow though, this was only my second time! I just didn't have enough experience to think to release. Silly isn't it.
Glenn Stockton
Which country did this occur?
There is never a single reason for an incident. A few of my observations being:
1 - There are a number of BHPA tow regulations not being observed. In addition to these.
2 - Height of launch is far to high especially for a second tow student.
3 - Training and qualifications of the driver can be questioned especially as they are using an enclosed vehicle (fixed roof) - therefore can not see what the position of the pilot / canopy. If they could have seen then this tow should have been aborted at least nine seconds after launch. The driver could have prevented this from going as far wrong as it did.
4 - There is no weak link assembly evident at the pilot end and I doubt there is one at the driver's end. If there was this would have almost certainly failed before the lock-out.
No question whatsoever. Whenever a weak link senses a lockout that severe you can bet your bottom dollar that it's gonna fulfill its primary mission, which is to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD.
5 - As pointed out previously the speed bar is full on - why? I have not seen this technique in 20+ years of towing.
This gives me the impression that a group of friends have bought some gear off eBay, have access to a 4x4 and to some land and think they can carry out a tow operation. I have seen this far too times where people have got themselves hurt (broken limbs) having bought gear off eBay or similar.
PLEASE think before selling gear to someone without suitable qualifications.
PLEASE seek advise from an approved school before buying off eBay or similar.
Just use a lighter weak link. You'll be fine.
Nick Roach
Hi, thank you all for your analysis of my accident. My instructor also thought that there was a problem with the speed system after seeing this video. I was of course well aware of the danger of lockout. On my first flight I was very surprised by how highly responsive my glider was to brake inputs; I found that only very minor inputs were required to maintain my line behind the tow vehicle. Are strong brake inputs ever required? On this second tow however I could distinctly feel some kind of tangle in the brake line on the right side, it wasn't just heavy, I could feel that it was somehow constricted and rubbing on something. Nevertheless I pulled it in deeper and deeper to the point that I feared it would stall, but my glider did not respond at all. I simply did not think of releasing from the tow line.
Yeah, lotsa people who have releases within easy reach simply don't think about releasing when they really need to.
This was posted today on the German forum. I don't know the pilot. As the video is on youtube, I assume it is o.k. to post it here.
I don't do tow-start myself, and I am somewhat puzzled by the cause of the lock-out. Not enough counter-steering?
Too much tow pressure and a Tad-O-Link.
The pilot says in the comments that he was just learning towing, it was his second towing flight. He suffered a broken pelvis.
Alan Birtles - 2014/10/13 17:01:48 UTC
shouldn't a weak link have broken too?
Fuck yes. Probably doubled it by mistake.
James Bradley - 2014/10/13 17:27:13 UTC
New York City
Moderator
Fuck you Bag Show moderators.
It appears there was never a high line load in this tow.
Bullshit. He was locked out...
Jerry Forburger - 1990/10
High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.
...wasn't he?
A weak link that would have broken here would likely be dangerously weak in other situations.
Bullshit. You just don't wanna be inconvenienced.
For example, if you have high tension leaving the ground (which some operators love because it gets people high faster, but it stretches your lines and has real risks) a too-weak weak link can break while the glider is way behind you while you are still low. The resulting surge can pendulum you into the ground hard enough to end your career.
You'll still live, but your career will be over.
Some operators don't use weaklinks to avoid this risk; the problem then is if the line locks on the spool you get towed into an instant stall until you can get to the release and/or the truck stops. This is not the good kind of excitement and is extremely abusive to your glider.
The purpose of the weak link is NOT to blow in the event of a winch jam - asshole.
After 150 tows and watching a few times that many, I insist on using a weak link and I also insist on one that many think is too strong.
Oh. That's what it took for you to decide on a course of action?
I only want it to break if the line locks on the spool.
You just keep wanting that then. It'll probably work. I'm gonna have my hands on the controls and a finger on the trigger so I don't hafta worry about bullshit like that.
To keep my stress level low I always bring my own, which allows me to replace a worn one or step outside of any philosophical disagreements.
Go fuck yourself. This ain't about philosophy. It's aviation and physics and we need everyone on the same page. And we need some people with actual substance to make that happen.
12 - Don't know/don't tow:
09 - None
07 - 1.5 to 2 times the in-flight load
06 - 1.0 to 1.5 times the in-flight load
01 - >2 times the in-flight load
01 - .75 to 1.0 times the in-flight load
00 - .5 to .75 times the in-flight load
00 - <.5 times the in-flight load
36 - Total Votes
Josh Cohn - 2014/10/17 19:56:47 UTC
El Cerrito, California
I liked James' rationale for choosing a weak link...
I'm sure you did.
...but I'm curious what others think.
Why don't you ask about what others THINK about stalls? Make sure you get some input from Bob and Bill.
Thus the poll.
- Yeah, Davis has one like that. http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
174 posts, he locked it down, and then a while later lotsa people suddenly decided they would be a lot happier with 200 than they were with 130.
- Which talks ONLY about in-flight load and says NOTHING about glider CAPACITY. So, as usual, nobody really has a clue what the fuck he's talking about.
Marc Lajus - 2014/10/17 20:33:01 UTC
I use mainly fixed winches, therefore I don't use weak link for paraglider towing.
I use a hang glider and release system which have infinite load capacities. Therefore I don't use a weak link either.
The advantage/risk balance does not seem favorable in this case.
I think the best safety relies on a good skilled winch operator. If motivation for using a weak link is lockout situation, then weak link is not the good answer, imho. Lockout can't be fatal without generating high loads anyway. Winch operator only can prevent lockouts and excessive load, and should release tension far before reaching any lockout point. As a last option, he can always cut the line with the guillotine.
Surely, if you rely on any untrained or non skilled operator, it may be useful to have a weak link. But rethink the problem and cure the cause is better.
Where I fly (near Bordeaux, France), we deliver winch operator qualification only after a serious training and solid experience that certifies the required skills to operate the winch.
If you don't use weak links you don't have any competent operators or pilots.
Nothing is more dangerous than self-improvised winch operators.
Which is what all you assholes are anyway.
They are the real danger.
With a pay-out winch, my opinion is more balanced.
Fuck your opinion.
A weak link may help in the case of wheel/cable jam.
And you may be dead immediately after it finishes helping you.
If this happens, as the vehicle is moving faster than the paraglider, there may be a sudden overload where a weak link may help. But consequences of line break under high load may be dramatic close to the ground.
You have to assume that it WILL be. And you need to use a two G weak link which won't break unless the glider's in danger of being overloaded.
So, if I had to choose a weak link, I would choose it as weak as possible.
Yeah. You're a fucking moron with an opinion.
100-120% of total weight seems reasonable to me, as one should never tow with more than 70% of total flying weight.
And nobody should ever pop off tow at a high pitch attitude. But they do at all altitudes.
Mario Mohl - 2014/10/18 04:42:46 UTC
Mexico
A good, careful winch operator is a clear plus in all cases. No questions there.
Sorry, I much prefer crappy reckless ones. Mike Robertson, for example.
That said, any mechanical device plus its control systems are exposed to multiple, usually unforeseen/unforeseeable malfunctions.
Not buying it.
Any, all, period. Shit just happens.
Cite some examples.
The only thing wrong with weaklinks is the English term and its implications. The German Sollbruchstelle is more accurate. PFL (predefined force limit(er)) would be much better.
You mean like a weak link? Lotsa pretentious extra syllables to give the illusion that the speaker has a functional brain?
A weak link is not intended to prevent/remedy a lockout...
In hang gliding - and paragliding which ripped off all of hang gliding's crap - it bloody well explicitly IS. That's the ONLY intent behind using light, oneish G weak links.
...but it might.
Yeah, it MIGHT. And every time it DOES we suddenly have justification for untold thousands of pops while gliders are doing fine, hundreds of minor crashes, and a handful of catastrophic incidents.
The true reason for a weaklink is having a known limit to the ultimate force than can possibly be fed to the pilot-wing.
A limit calibrated to do WHAT?
As such, the argument regarding weaklink usefulness or lack thereof in a lockout scenario is flawed and a mute point.
Winches have, necessarily, the ability to exert greater forces than the PG/pilot combo can take. Not having a defined, known limit to the force that could potentially be applied is simply dumping one additional layer of protection in a worst case scenario... and one that costs (next to) nothing and does not interfere with anything and has no drawbacks whatsoever. No matter whether payin or payout, the failure modes are just different, either one has the potential to do damage.
1.5 to 2 times AUW and possibly closer to two at that, is a bare minimum to insure avoiding unnecessary breakage.
It's not All Up Weight. It's max certified operating weight.
Accuracy and frequent replacement are both a must, so SOP.
So you're specifying a range - that I'm close to being OK with - of one and a half to two Gs but accuracy is a must?
A good, careful winch operator is a clear plus in all cases. No questions there.
It is not a "plus", it is a requirement.
Real groundbreaking material here.
Looking for mechanical devices to compensate for faulty operators is a wrong direction I think.
- It's a bit of a stretch to refer to a loop of string or a strip of metal as a mechanical device.
- So much for ballistic parachutes, ejection seats, inertial seatbelts, airbags...
And if you fear that overloading may cause paraglider structural failure, this is highly improbable.
It's highly impossible with a two G weak link.
With 8G load factor, before the paraglider might explode, the towing line should have broken, or you fly with the winch itself as a ballast !
I know of a hang glider that lifted a Yarnall winch off the ground in the fall of 1980. Total douchebag - Randy Cobb - on the bottom end of that operation. Running around looking for anything that vaguely resembled a knife.
The only situation where weak link may be useful (may be) is the one James Bradley said: a line lock on the wheel of a payout winch may cause an instant stall due to pendulum movement. This can happen with pay-out winches - not pay-in - and I admit there is an issue in this case (debatable anyway). This is more likely to happen if the glider is out of trim and/or the pilot brakes when it should not. With a certified glider - on trim - and letting it fly, even with towing excessively hard it should never stall.
I one hundred percent guarantee you it'll stall the instant it stops towing excessively hard.
Here in France there has also been much debate on whether to use weak links or not...
Try calling them weak links. That's WHAT they are and that's ALL they are.
Experience has shown that the use of weak links caused more accidents than they prevented.
That's ENTIRELY because you assholes were trying to use them as "fuses" instead of as weak links. REAL weak links never cause accidents because...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
You and I have flown sailplanes for almost as long as we have flown hang gliders. We own two sailplanes and have two airplanes that we use for towing full-size sailplanes. In all the time that we have flown and towed sailplanes, we have not experienced or even seen a sailplane weak link break.
...they never break. Kinda the way properly secured parachutes never cause accidents.
Thus, the French Federation does not recommend using weak links for paragliding.
Fuck the French Federation. They're all total morons.
Conversely, the weak links are recommended for hang gliding, as problems dive forward when line break are different.
BULLSHIT. Quest fuses can kill hang gliders just as dead...
This recommendation is not an ideological position, but it comes from many feedback.
It's clueless, incompetent bullshit - just like BHPA but in the opposite direction.
Anyway, this is not only my personal point of view but that of FFVL too.
Well, it certainly must be OK then.
Mark Smith - 2014/10/18 11:06:50 UTC
I don't tow these days...
But I regard a weak link in much the same way as I regard an emergency parachute! A last resort if I can't fix things another way!
It's not. A weak link kicks in BEFORE the glider blows up and you may very well die as a sole consequence of it kicking in. A parachute is deployed AFTER the glider blows up and, while it may not save you, it won't make your situation any worse (unless you drift into the powerlines instead of falling into the lake).
Therefore I favour a stronger weak link! I think James is right "I only want it to break if the line locks on the spool" or maybe if the operator passes out or falls asleep etc.!
James is full of shit. It will only break if it's overloaded. If a lock-up produces an overload it'll break. If it doesn't it won't. If you wanna deal with a situation like that most effectively then use a release that doesn't stink on ice.
Accidental breakage is then unlikely rendering the French federations concerns groundless - but still providing an extra safety belt.
And with all that collective intellectual firepower at their disposal they're totally unable to figure out something like you just did individually?
James Holla - 2014/10/18 13:28:46 UTC
The positions on weak-links differ quite a bit - in some places they are mandatory, in other recommended and quite a number of experienced tow sites do not use them at all. Also some politics involved here.
SOME? You think hang and paragliding could go this many decades with damn near everyone's head up his ass on weak links unless political interests weren't the overwhelming factor?
In the end it is a trade-off:
Ever hear anybody in sailplaning say that?
A weak-link helps if the operator is sleeping or not good.
Right. If you've got an operator asleep at the switch you can always count on a weak link...
...to increase the safety of the towing operation. It's not like the pilot would ever be making and executing a go/no-go decision.
It helps also when something jams or otherwise happens very suddenly, as it is faster then
Fuckin' moron.
It does require extra attention and needs regular replacement, or erratic breaks will be the result
Know the precise values it needs to always function most efficiently in the interest of your safety.
Under gusty strong-wind conditions they can break unnecessarily and create extra risks
The ones YOU use, asshole.
What a weak-link is not needed for is to prevent glider damage - the mostly used dynema lines break well before something else gets critical (yes, tested myself already).
Well then, you're all set. A nice Dyneema line which will break before anything gets critical. What could possibly go wrong with a system like that?
I think the more experienced and trained both pilot and tow operator are, the less benefits there will be with a weak-link.
Ditto with a parachute, asshole. HOWEVER...
But on the other hand, you'll always sometimes have not so experienced people.
And Mother Nature's always extremely kind and totally predictable.
That may explain the vastly differing policies.
No, that's totally in the stupidity department.
Mario Mohl - 2014/10/18 15:15:07 UTC
BTW, for those who think they don't use a weaklink and vote "none", sorry to say, they ultimately do anyway. It's built into the system.
Yep. SOMETHING *WILL* break.
They just don't know where it is and what the breaking force will be. None and >2 boils down to the same thing, unless the line is badly worn, that is.
Well, most of your better tow operations understand that and use badly worn line.
Some systems simply use a leader line with a breaking strength lower than the main line.
Which would make it a... Lemme think here... WEAK LINK?
Others advocate using a lower rated (cheaper) towline in the first place.
No shit. So much shoddiness, so many options.
Martin Henry - 2014/10/18 15:49:46 UTC
West Coast, Canada
Oh good. Industry Standards Expert Martin Henry.
Over the past twenty years I get most of my airtime via my payout winch and I have towed a wide range of aircraft with my system (mainly the ATOS rigid wings, followed by flex wing hangs and on occasion a few paragliders, yours truly included on the pg's ) . I follow a 1 to 1.5 total mass standard.
You're FOLLOWING it. Whose STANDARD is it and how did it get to be a STANDARD? Same way a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot got to be a standard aerotow weak link?
I'm not a big fan of aggressive steep tows, preferring the "soft start" and mild climbs (but have the benefit of long tow roads, so there is no need to get involved with the high risks associated with high tension climbs).
Plus you have a one to one and half G weak link which will blow just in case something goes wrong and somebody gets in a steep climb. Win/Win.
No offence, and to each his own but I think the idea of not using a weak link is insane...
I'll take that flavor of insanity over yours any day of the week, motherfucker.
...on the other hand, I also respect that the weak link really is not capable of doing much more then providing insurance for either a "mechanical event" or a dangerous towing system or procedure.
I have no respect for that take whatsoever. It's not a fuckin' insurance agency and it won't pay anybody anything after someone's splattered all over the runway. It's a goddam *WEAK* *LINK*. Try to get that concept through your terminally thick skull and get back to me in two or three years to lemme know what kind of progress you're making.
The "perfect" winch is quite capable of killing you... all without ever popping a weak link (tho some do cling to the belief the weak link will save you).
But you're using a 1.0 to 1.5 because... Anything heavier will blow up the glider?
The pilot and the operator are your first defence against disaster.
What's the pilot's and operator's first defense against a 1.0 to 1.5 G weak link pop? Parachute? Prayer?
Pretty much the only thing a weak link can do is provide a potential escape if the operator or pilot fails to do their job.
But let's not cling to the belief that the weak link will save you. Fuckin' idiot.
Keep in mind the "escape" has some serious risks...
Yeah, you could get inconvenienced. Might hafta land and haul your glider back up on the truck again.
...departing from the towline under high load can set up some pretty dynamic events, which is why I like sticking within the 1-1.5 x total mass weak link.
But if you use a weak link a wee bit over half of your upper limit, no fuckin' way will you tailslide, whipstall, and tumble to your death back on the runway.
In the air and under tow, departing/breaking from a towline with 200 to 400 pounds of tension is a whole lot less dynamic then staying attached to a 1000 pound test towline during one of those "shit happens" events
And I guess it's totally ridiculous to discuss equipping a pilot with a release he would be able to actually use in any kind of dicey situation.
What an asshole.
Fuck you, Stuart. Now that we've driven a stake through Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's heart I'm gonna have a little more time to work on your slimy ass.
I can't tick the answer, because there is no right answer....
Of course. If there possibly WERE one YOU'd be the one who knew it.
I generally like the 75 - 100%...
Well sure. That's the range that most reliable sources believe is best. So what else is a totally unreliable piece of shit like you gonna go with?
...but if you're a lightweight pilot it can get insanely low, and we know from experience that anything that blows under 250 pounds or so is sketchy even for a very light pilot.
Big fuckin' deal. Much more safety at the cost of a bit if inconvenience.
We also know that a 90 pound pilot can easily break a 400 pound link in a paraglider with no real adverse effects on glider control.
Well yeah. Just plain common sense. Subtract four hundred pounds of thrust from a 120 pound aircraft in a millisecond it's gonna be just fine - no matter what was happening at the time.
I clip in at around 340 pounds...
What do you think your clip-in weight would be if you included a functional brain?
...and almost always use a link that breaks at 264 pounds. I haven't had an inadvertant weak link break ever with one of these links.
Well then, obviously NO ONE will ever break a 0.7 G weak link. And if nobody ever breaks one nobody will ever have a problem as a consequence of a break.
Sure I bust them, but typically at the top of the tow when the operator is trying to eeeek out the last bit of altitude.
But those don't count as inadvertent. Those are all deliberate.
Down low it is very unlikely to break simply becasue we never use more than 70 pounds or so to launch a pilot...
And it's physically impossible for anything to happen which would put anybody over that mark.
...and then once a safe altitude is reaches say 100' or so we ramp up to the tow pressure desired.
I usually desire tow tension. But I'm something of a freak - the kind that despises people who model their operations on what most reliable sources believe.
I like around 140 pounds FWIW>
Don't you mean 140 pounds per square inch?
AS far as the recent lockout video... a weaklink absolutely WILL NOT prevent you from lockout, or blow out if you do.
Right, Stuart. A 0.7 weak link absolutely WILL blow when a glider is straight and level climbing normally but once the glider starts tracking away from whatever's pulling it it'll hold until hell freezes over. Simple physics/logic.
Is is almost impossible to lock out a paraglider on tow (by lockout I mean that the pilot physically can't correct for their attitude in any case... not some lame assed pilot who can't fly and doesn't put in the correct or proper control input...
Who was trained and signed off by some lame assed instructor and pulled up by some lame assed operator.
I can drive an aircraft off the runway by failing to apply sufficient rudder authority to keep it straight as I add power as well... is that an aircarft problem?).
Nah, more like grammar, spelling, punctuation problems.
Likewise, if people use tow assist devices in a PG and a reasonably skilled winch operator the odds of breaking a weaklink on launch are very small.
Got any brilliant ideas on how to make them even smaller? Or are your hands tied because of what most reliable sources believe?
sicne I'm far too lazy to type a responce to a question I've answered thousands of time...
My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.
See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.
But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
I'll cut and paste from the weaklink section on our website http://www.TowMeUp.com in the following post.
Most reliable sources believe that a weak link should be sized so that it breaks at 75% to 100% of the in-flight load.
We should start to distinguish between the different tow methods if we discuss such details, simply because the used tow force differs between them.
And the gliders used blow up at different loadings when being pulled up using these different methods.
Also the definitions of some expressions is perhaps not always as clear as one person thinks.
Pressure. Tension. Whichever you find more pleasing to your ear.
In static winch towing typical recommended tow forces are approximately naked pilot weight for a paraglider (a bit more for hangies, depending on wind situation one might also vary a bit). A 100 kg pilot will then be towed (not from the start, but after safety height is reached) with a regulated 100 kg tow force.
Now what is the in flight load? If you mean pilot plus gear then it would be 115-120 kg, 75-100% of that would not do, obviously.
Of course it would. It's what most reliable sources believe that a weak link. If what they believed was only half of what it should be then they wouldn't be reliable sources and Stuart wouldn't be citing them.
You probably mean the maximum load at the highest point of the tow curve? That would be ca. 115+100 kg = ca. 225 kg.
No. The motherfucker means 75 to 100 percent of flying weight. (I SO hope that what happened to Rooney is about to happen to this son of bitch.)
75-100% of that value is reasonable if you want to use a weak link. For a pay-out winch the tow-force is less.
And the capacity of the glider is still exactly the capacity of the glider.
But as you said yourself:
A WEAKLINK THAT BLOWS OUT PREMATURELY CAN IN MANY CASES BE WORSE THAN USING NO WEAK LINK AT ALL!
But he also said that his 0.7 G weak links never blow inadvertently. So what's your problem?
...and as someone else...
Mario.
...has said:
For those who think they don't use a weaklink and vote "none", sorry to say, they ultimately do anyway. It's built into the system.
They just don't know where it is and what the breaking force will be.
Yes, of course. The NONE vote means no extra/dedicated weak-link. With no weak-link it is the tow line that is the de facto weak link.
If you're lucky.
You should know what kind of line you use.
The kind of line *I* use is the kind that no fuckin' way will blow before my dedicated weak link - 'cause I want there to be ZERO possibility of being connected to anything on the ground again after my dedicated, fairly precisely calibrated weak link blows 'cause I may be having other problems requiring my full and undivided attention around that time.
Most of the time dynema nowadays.
Right. If you want something that acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.
This will always break before anything else in the winch or the paraglider (no one sane uses massively oversized dynema lines as this is $$$). It is not as defined as a weak link, but you know the maximum strength of the new dynema line and also that a used line is a bit below that, as it will be patched for sure.
GREAT! Then you won't hafta worry about investing in a weak link calibrated for your glider. And everybody will be happy 'cause everybody will have something that will break before his glider will - be it a little solo or a heavy tandem.
Tying a weak link has always been the way most people get by. But when you take some 200 pound test line and tie a knot, at what force does the link break? Different knots, how the knot is tied, and even the length of the line used to tie the knot greatly affect how the link will break.
Exactly. Anyone using knotted lines is anyway only using a very rough and undefined weak link.
Bullshit. You can get consistency way the hell better than any value you'll need to worry about.
Which is why they are nowadays made from metal, see here an example on a known winch manufacturer site:
Weak link inserts have been made of metal since the beginning of time. If your weak link is gonna be going down with the towline and getting dragged then use metal. If it's staying up with you then use string.
And this how it looks (without the cage, which is also used):
I personally prefer the 200 kg tandem one even for solo.
Are you totally out of your fuckin' mind? That's two or three times as heavy as most reliable sources believe it should be!
But I am also fine without one provided I know the tow operator and that he uses otherwise reasonable material.
If he doesn't use a dedicated weak link somewhere around the two G mark there's no point in talking about otherwise reasonable material. He's not a competent operator and he's throwing away a potentially critical element of the tow system which is essentially zero cost.
A weak-link would be really recommended if you are not sure about the tow operator or his material.
A fuckin' weak link should be MANDATORY for ANY tow operation.
And don't hold back on being a lot more explicit than you were about calling Stuart an incompetent asshole.
Andreas Gazis - 2014/10/20 08:52:30 UTC
Stockholm
Moderator
Fuck you Bag Show moderators.
Years ago, ground handling at a beach with a friend. Another PG pilot stops by with his boat. We decide to try some towing. We have an ancient, beat up, tandem wing.
I come from a sailplane background so am vaguely familiar with the concept of weak links.
How reassuring that you were VAGUELY familiar with a critical element of your sailplane towing system. Must be why they made you a Paragliding Forum moderator.
I'm sent to get rope. I go to a supermarket and eyeball the options, get a rope that seems (by simple visual inspection) just strong enough to perhaps tow a PG.
Great job! Lines right up with your vague familiarity with the concept of sailplane weak links.
Back on the beach, am berated for my choice while I defend it based on possibility of lockouts. After several, uneventful, very low altitude line breaks, it seems my rope indeed sucks.
Should've just cut it up and used it for weak links. What sucks as a towline is superb in the function of a weak link.
Finally, successful climb (up to that point line breaks happened in the first stages of loading the rope and we ended up with a rope with many knots in it). The boat driver looks straight ahead and gives full throttle. The glider climbs and drifts to the side. I jump up and down in the water and scream to cut power but can't be heard. Leading edge starts dropping towards the horizon.
Line breaks.
VINDICATION! When you're throwing together a tow operation with crappy equipment and people with vague to no understandings of what they're doing use a crappy towline because it MIGHT break in time to keep someone from being killed in a lockout. And if he gets killed from a line break triggered whipstall you can totally blame it on pilot error 'cause no one in hang and para gliding views a line break as anything more than a mild, easily dealt with inconvenience.
Pilot lives to die a few years later in traffic accident.
Good thing you were using a crappy towline instead of a weak link. A weak link won't break in the course of a lockout.
Robert Beukers - 2014/10/20 12:35:46 UTC
Netherlands
Holland is as flat as a dime.
Pancake. A dime is something you try to stop on when you're perfecting your flare timing.
The only way to fly here is either some coastal dunesoaring or winchtowing.
We have about fifteen towingfields and many towflights per flyable weekend (a few hundred I guess). All winches are stationary and once every two years safety tested by the technical guys of our national association. One of the requirements is that while the winch is still in gear, it automatically pays out when the operator stops pulling AND the force in the line exceeds a certain limit. This situation can occur when the pilot hits a strong thermal or windlayer.
Why don't you just use 0.7 G weak links? Then you won't hafta maintain and inspect your winches and make sure they continue to pay out when the operator cuts the power. When the glider pitches up when it hits a strong thermal or wind layer the glider will just pop off. End of problem - 'cept, of course, for a bit of inconvenience.
Most important however is that our operators must have had a specialised training and need a operator license.
With this background I fully agree with Marc Lajus that weak links are not favourable. A safe winch and a good operator is what you need.
And with a safe winch and a good operator you can also toss out your helmet and parachute 'cause you can be absolutely certain that nothing bad will ever happen.
Nothing will help if the operator has no skills...
Yeah, NOTHING. Make sure you lose all your safety equipment and protective gear when you've got a crappy operator 'cause nothing will help. Maybe just some sunscreen and a hook knife.
...(same as driving a car without knowledge, experience and license)...
Nothing there either. Don't bother with stuff like warning flashers, windshield wipers, seatbelts, airbags. Just accept what's gonna happen to you and take it like a man.
...and the winch is technically unsafe (same as a car with MOT failure). A weak link will then only give a false feeling of security.
Just like a hook-in check just prior to launch. Lemme tell ya sumpin' dude...
Nobody's EVER had a false feeling of security by having a weak link. The people who've flown light ones have been conned into using them and they've been scared shitless of them for decades. Those few of us who use weak links rated to keep our gliders from getting overloaded are totally one hundred percent justifiably confident in their ability to serve that function.
For flights with students weak links can be even very dangerous at low altitudes and should not be used, even with skilled operators.
For the love of God, NO! In US hang glider aerotowing we don't let people use Davis Links until they've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who. We start them off at two Gs which, in effect, means NO weak link, and let them work their ways to 130 pound Greenspot.
A proper operator can and will solve all problems before they grow into a real problem.
Just like a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot will for aerotowed hang gliders.
Experienced pilots in Holland often have and use a special device as a release. This device opens the release automatically when the towing force in a sideways direction exceeds a certain limit (can be adjusted). This obviously works in a lock out situation but it was primarily developed to be able to operate steptowing in a safe way (automatically releasing if the winch for some reason blocks when flying downwind away from the winch with cable attached).
With steptowing even on relatively short fields (500-600 M) the pilot can reach higher altitudes (+500 m) and/or can release when entering a nice thermal.
On 2013/02/02 one of our hang glider guys got dumped by his standard aerotow weak link into a nice thermal shortly after he entered it at about a hundred feet. Wasn't able to hook it though and was back on the runway a very short time later.
So in Holland we are very experienced in safely towing paragliders with stationary winches (at least more then 7.500 - 10.000 tows per year) and we do not use or require weak links.
In the US we require but virtually never use hook-in checks just prior to foot launch. Haven't killed anybody in well over six years now.
But we do require well trained and licensed operators and safe (tested) winches.
When steptowing we require the special steptowing safety-release (opening automatically at a preconfigurated sideways force).
You don't use releases that can be blown by the pilot in an emergency and you don't know what a fucking weak link is.
You're supposed to have all these high quality winches and ace drivers at your disposal but apparently none of them have the skill to get students off the ground without abruptly spiking the tension up to two Gs while somebody's in a steep climb.
You assholes may never need a dedicated weak link in any of your operations but you're all idiots for not having them.
Martin Henry - 2014/10/20 12:43:59 UTC
When it comes to the poll, can't help but think the "none" clan might be just be your typical Edward Abbey pranksters (American Eco writer who took great pride in poking his finger in the eye of the "Man")
Of course you can't help but think that. We certainly don't want to accept the fact that tens of thousands of tows are being pulled without weak links and none of the horrors predicted by Donnell and his generations of disciples are happening.
Cheers
Martin
Edit: No offence to Roberts post above! I've towed in in Holland many years back... honestly can't recall if we used a weak link or not. It was my first step tow. Can't argue with the "good" operator comment, I guess its all about a big planet and plenty of ways to approach the task.
Seeing as how Newtonian physics varies so much from region to region.
I will say, using a true stationary winch versus a payout design there are some fundamental differences. A stationary winch the operator has the benefit of focusing strictly on the tow and watching the pilot, unlike the payout system that often finds an operator turning his/her back on their pilot and sharing the towing task with driving some sort of vehicle... and yes often without a "spotter".... still with a stationary winch "shit" can happen.
And that's why you really need a light weak link - for any shit happening situation. Gotta increase the safety of that towing operation.
BTW, might I suggest that the reason for dropping the weak link in Holland might be that towing from shorter fields and the use of step towing results in a more aggressive tow force?
Yeah Martin, that's it. They're blasting those gliders off the ground at five hundred pounds of tension. And while the gliders can easily withstand that kind of loading no reasonable weak link ever could.
I can see how with very strong winch forces "weak links" will fall out of favour and the safety is passed onto the pilot/operator...
Idiot.
Cheers and "Bedankt voor luisteren" (my wife is Dutch )
Is she an industry standards expert too?
James Holla - 2014/10/20 22:10:18 UTC
...the use of step towing results in a more aggressive tow force?
Nope, if at all you need more care. For the start of every step you need to increase pulling force slowly. "Rocket launches" are for a good reason frowned upon. Simply bad practice.
Work pretty nicely for platform.
Some experienced pilots will launch in pretty windy conditions however. That increases the chance of weaklinks breaking prematurely a bit. And likely makes em less "preferred".
Bullshit. If a launch isn't coming close to blowing a glider apart it won't be that much closer to blowing a proper weak link apart.
Mads Syndergaard - 2014/10/21 07:16:28 UTC
Denmark
Towing experience
I appreciate Stu's very very considerable experience...
I don't. I don't give a flying fuck about anybody's goddam experience. The guy's an incompetent, cowardly, lying douchebag.
Matter o' fact... We get virtually NOTHING out of any of these motherfuckers with experience coming out of their asses. They're our main sources of resistance. Name some innovations in this sport - other than in glider design, which I don't find all that goddam impressive anyway - that have come from motherfuckers with tons of experience. The concept of running the other half of the tow tension to the pilot instead of the basetube first came on 1979/09/26 from Brian Pattenden - a guy who never once hooked himself up to anything in the course of his very short hang gliding career. Tell me about all the great stuff we've gotten from Bill Moyes, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt, Quest, Wallaby, Davis Dead-On Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Joe Greblo, Pat Denevan.
People who need to learn stuff in aviation through EXPERIENCE are, by definition, morons.
...but I have always found his communications skills a tad lacking.
See above.
If anything, this thread will prove to anyone that there is no black and white (as usual in paragliding).
Yes there is. It's all EXTREMELY black and white. That's what all solid aviation texts are printed in.
Yet when you read Stu and towmeup.com, black and white is the first thing that enters your mind.
Not my mind. I'm getting major brown.
Shit ain't like that, as the dutch have proven time and again.
They don't have most reliable sources over there.
We're gonna gut you, motherfucker. You painted yourself into a corner with that "most reliable sources believe"/"75 to 100 percent" bullshit and made nasty defenses of it and now you're getting buried by what's going on all over the place in the real world. You're fucked and there's no way out and I'm gonna do what I can to make your life as miserable as possible and send you down the toilet with Davis, Rooney, and Peter. Asshole.
P.S. I notice you're not responding to Mads Syndergaard's post. Coward.
Marc Lajus - 2014/10/21 08:00:35 UTC
Thanks Mads for pointing out that it's not black or white, but many shades of grey .
Weak links - 2.0. Stuart - 0.0.
The choice for using or not using weak links - and for the first the choice of breaking strength - is a question of benefits/risks balance.
Bullshit.
The benefits/risks balance varies with the kind of glider (PG/HG), the kind of winch (pay-in, pay-out), towing procedures and tow operator skills and attention.
Bullshit.
What we found here in France - and in NL too I'm glad to see - is that if you focus on right towing procedures (slow start, tension increase after reaching a safety altitude etc...), control-checked winches, and - most important - serious operator training, then the usefulness of weak links decrease and can even go under their disadvantages.
Bullshit. A weak link does ONE THING that very few people ever need it to do - just like a parachute (a parachute for hang gliding anyway). If it's there when you need it you won't blow up your glider. If it's not you will. Things don't get any more black and white than that.
Concerning Pay-out winch, on car or boat, we strongly discourage that the same person drive the car or the boat and operate the winch in the same time. The winch operator must be 100% focused on his winch...
This is absolutely vital during takeoff. In order to keep concentrated on winch operation, we use a very simple vocal protocol between winch operator and car driver to manage the speed (plus/minus orders in 5km/h steps. ex : "plus plus" means +10km/h).
We, the Moderators, feel that weak links are an important topic. In our view Tad Eareckson's posts have discouraged others from taking part in this discussion, so, after several warnings, he has been banned.
Good move, pigfuckers. Took the better part of four years for your pansies to recover enough from Tad Eareckson's posts to start talking pretty much the same moronic crap about paraglider weak links that they were before.
His most recent post, after this topic was locked...
After WE locked this topic 'cause Tad was kicking too many sleazy asses.
...is here. We are happy to lift the ban if we come to the view that Tad has further positive contributions to make - please contact us by PM or by email if you feel that this is the case.
Fuck you. I wouldn't waste a punctuation mark in your dump to keep any one of you pieces of shit from piling in if you begged me. Too much fun watching unbridled stupidity operating around stuff that hauls people into the air. Get your li'l Rooney buddy to give you some of the benefit of his keen intellect.
I didn't realize it until a day or so ago but that little shit...
Not a fuckin' PEEP. Practices and "standards" all over the map so there was no consensus to hide behind, no high ground to crowd onto and take potshots. Likewise with this recent revival.
I wonder if I'll live long enough to see hang and paragliders figure out what a weak link is and go with ratings to fulfill the mission - the way sailplanes do and always have done.
In the Seventies we had uncertified gliders that were hauled up by their airframes and really needed weak links to keep them from folding up and didn't use them.
Then Donnell comes along at the beginning of the Eighties with a one G upper limit for surface and less for aero - not quite off the ground yet - which keeps six plus G certified gliders from folding up and breaks BEFORE anyone has a chance of getting out of control.
Then paragliders come along in the later Eighties and try to duplicate what hang gliders are doing, mostly finding out just how dangerous that is, and reasoning that their only choices are one G lockout protectors and no weak link at all. Apparently none of them followed Sesame Street long enough to make it up to Number Two.
Then Dragonflies come along about a decade after Donnell with 130 pound test fishing line that puts all gliders at Donnell's magic one G to continue breaking before glider control can be lost and make sure the tug can't stall.
Then Tad starts waking up around 2006, the 130 pound Greenspot scam starts unraveling, Zack Marzec gets fatally inconvenienced at the beginning of 2013, and we've entered an era of flying the 200 that Davis is happy with - minus any pretense or memory of Gs or regard for the top secret FAA regulations of 2004.
200 is the same as a double loop of 130, the ideal weak link for all tandems, and heavier that the Dragonfly's breakaway tow mast. There's hope that these assholes will revert back to Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's original moronic configuration...
The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either.
...of having the tow mast breakaway the same strength as the front end weak link and the front end weak link the same strength as the tandem weak link so everything gets a one out of three chance to increase the safety of the towing operation with each tits up situation but that's probably as far as these assholes are ever gonna go towards doing things right.
Ideally the next time one of Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's bent pin pieces of crap kills somebody...
I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.
I don't like homade stuff.
...we'll be able to get hold of the video of him struggling to pry it open while the ground rushes up instead of just not making the easy reach...
...'cause he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over. In theory a survivor's report would also work but as long as a crash victim still has a pulse when he's loaded onto the medevac chopper...
Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
...and never has one percent of the impact of a nice, fatal, game over, Zack Marzec caliber event.
.
