http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25963
Woman killed in B.C. hang gliding fall.
Paul Hurless - 2014/10/02 19:25:42 UTC
Expressing an opinion, as I am doing here, is one thing, making pronouncements about the only way things should be done and that doing them any other way is wrong is something else entirely.
You mean like?:
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Appropriate aerotow bridles
Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://www.ozreport.com/9.039#0 and
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2.
Pilots who have not already had their bridles inspected during the practice days must bring their bridles to the mandatory pilot safety briefing and have them reviewed. Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.
Weaklinks
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line
http://www.cortlandline.com/catalog/braid.html and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in
reality... but does it work in
theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC
I don't suffer fools lightly.
I also do not suffer armchair experts... lightly or otherwise.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC
Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.
BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.
This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.
But that's the gods honest truth.
This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.
You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC
Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.
I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.
130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.
Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC
Oh, btw... before you go there, cuz it is where you're headed... please note the word "Guidelines".
As I said.
Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC
Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC
I never told you to take me at my word.
I said I'm sick to death of inexperienced people arguing with experienced people. It boggles my mind.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.
It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC
Zach,
I'm not trying to sway you...
See, that's the thing here... you're trying to sway... you believe this is a discussion where one side "sways" the other. Argument isn't the right word as it's a bit harsh cuz you're being quite civil (thank you). It's just not the case...
This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
You're not the one making the decisions here.
See if you can convince a tug pilot to tow you, with whatever gear you like, then you're sweet.
But we're the ones you need to convince, not the other way around.
So if anyone's trying to "sway" anyone, you need to convince me.
And like I said, I'm over it.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC
Allow me to repeat... hundreds of thousands of tows.
Sure, there's other stuff out there too. Some of it even has a number of tows behind it... but hundreds of thousands is a very large number.
That's not "religion" my friend.
The shit works. It works in reality and it works consistently. It's not perfect, but Joe-Blow's pet theories have a very high bar to reach before they are given credence.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC
Yeah, sorry... nope. Not behind me at least... go be a test pilot behind someone else.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 00:34:14 UTC
You need to understand something here that you're really not getting yet.
You are talking as if I or "we" need to justify something to you.
This is 180deg off.
YOU are the one arguing with a system that's been in place and has been worked on over quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows.
The onus is on YOU.
Not the other way around.
"We" don't need to justify jack.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC
I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.
You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/19 02:22:35 UTC
I mean, it's not like I've been doing this for a job since 2004 right?
Sorry I can't help.
I guess you'll have to find someone else to argue with.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
The accepted standards and practices changed.
How come motherfuckers like those get free passes from you on making pronouncements about the only way things should be done? 'Cause they're mainstreamers? What's Tom Galvin doing here?:
http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver
Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC
I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.
Isn't that a pronouncement that doing a hook-in check is categorically wrong - no exceptions? But it's T** at K*** S****** who's spewing insanity all over the web? Now this Tom Galvin piece of shit who won't respond to anybody if he's not in a position to get the individual banned before he gets his ball torn off?
Tad openly states that he hopes that people who don't agree with his insanity will get injured or killed.
1. The few people with functional brains in this sport, the ones who can handle junior high level math and science, tend to totally agree with Tad's insanity - so it's a pretty good bet that Tad's insanity isn't.
2. If Tad's insanity is actually insanity then the people who don't agree with it are likely to be as safe in the air as they are sitting at the picnic tables at the LZ - so, if Tad actually hoped that, what would it matter? Why not just use T** at K*** S****** as a resource? Teach everybody to do the precise opposite of Tad's insanity. Works for your buddy Tom.
3. What would you hope for the people who HAVE been injured or killed? What would you do if you had a time machine and could get to them on the relevant Friday night? Tell them:
- to:
-- skip the preflight sidewire load tests because they might grind their wires into sharp rocks?
-- make sure their carabiners are engaging the backups and locked and chinstraps are buckled?
- not to do hook-in checks because they give a false sense of security?
- really practice making that easy reach to their bent pin pro toad releases?
- always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less to prevent lockouts and steep climbs?
- aim for the traffic cone in the middle of the field to make sure they won't clip the fence on final?
- get their hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height at a hundred feet so they will:
-- not hafta worry about transitioning at trim in ground effect?
-- have really great flare authority when they're trying to nail that no stepper?
Would you be able to do anything more substantive than express one of your idiot opinions?
When people get into this sport - or any other flavor of aviation - they WANT their instructors to make pronouncements about the only way things should be done 'cause when/if they get the right ones they learn how to keep their asses alive. They don't want bullshit idiot OPINIONS from assholes like you who don't have the brains or competence to state two plus two equals four as a FACT.
And when people are training in REAL aviation that IS how things tend to work.
And when they're in hang gliding they come out of their training programs clueless and scared because they've been taught that two plus two equals seven and they hop onto the intellectually castrated Jack Show where they try to get things to make sense and instead get all kinds of other idiot opinions on what the sum of two plus two is.
