http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/08/25 19:40:56 UTC
USHPA doesn't sell flying equipment or supplies of this sort. There are very good reasons for that, as you might expect in a litigious society like ours.
Yeah Mark, and as we all know all too well USHGA's primary mission is to protect itself from litigation. Anything else has a priority of tenth or worse.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline.
Why? Was there some reason you couldn't make the product of your keen intellect up publicly for EVERYONE to see? And comment on?
Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
But it won't clear things up for everybody else? Just him?
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .
Yeah, I'm sure you did a great job - in private. We'll just take your word for it 'cause you're such an honorable person.
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
Yeah, just like the people on Wall Street - unregulated scumbags who make up whatever rules they feel like and don't give a flying fuck about anyone downwind.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
But moving ever forward nevertheless. In 1991 if you wanted a bent pin release you could only get it with black webbing. Now you have a choice - you can get it in red as well.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM smooth is silk. No unnecessary weak link pops, stalls, lockouts, jammed releases, wrapped bridles, disintegrated Dragonflies, crashes, injuries, or fatalities.
We know what we're doing.
Go fuck yourself.
Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
And the shallowness of intelligence and character.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment.
Goddam right there won't. Neither you nor any of your douchebag colleagues has had a single original thought in twenty years.
The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.
And brutally suppressed 'cause none of you motherfuckers wants to deal with the recall and liability issues which would inevitably result.
Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
Which was, in its entirety in this discussion, lest anyone has forgotten:
To break under load before the glider does.
But Davis has ALSO said:
http://ozreport.com/9.032
The Worlds - weaklinks
Davis Straub - 2005/02/07
For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
But of course this ONLY applies to rigid wings.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question
Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped. Fortunately, I fly with solid wheels on the glider, so me, the glider, and the dolly all rolled safely to a stop with no damage to anyone or anything.
It's not like anyone flying a flexwing could possibly have a problem because of 130 pound Greenspot.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Yeah Jim, you assholes have done a really super job of never tearing the wings off of a glider on tow.
Zack C - 2011/08/26 00:08:08 UTC
Maybe because they're tired of releases that don't work under tension, releases they have to relinquish control of the glider to activate, stalling near the ground because of weak links breaking for no reason, instructors telling them to intentionally break weak links in an emergency when they can't get to their release, a hook knife being considered an acceptable release option, secondary releases on a V-bridle being considered a backup for the primary release, bridles wrapping on tow rings, tugs having weaker weak links than gliders, disagreement among even professionals over what a weak link is for, tow operators not having a clue what line tensions break their weak links...
In my opinion, we have a long way to go.
While we're talking about weak link material...it is a mystery to me that so many push or even mandate a weak link that breaks at 0.6 Gs for some people and 1.3 Gs for others.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28641
Weak links in towing paragliders with pay out winch
Stuart Caruk - 2009/12/04 20:57:53 UTC
Just because people have been doing something for years doesn't mean it's right. Heck look at all the hang glider guys who having been tying loops of 130 pound line for years, and assuming it would break at 260 pounds. Then they wonder why the links seem to break prematurely...
Let me see if I can clear up a few things for ya.
A lot of this I sent to Steve btw...
The "purpose" of a weaklink is not in question. Your semantics are.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
Yeah. Just like the purpose of an airbag which goes off at random is to increase the safety of a drive to the grocery store.
There are many ways in which it accomplishes this.
You're nit picking over what you call the "true purpose"... but all you're griping about is a definition... and an erroneous one at that.
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
Again, The weak link increases the safety of the tow.
http://ozreport.com/9.011
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
Now, how it does this also provides a telling answer to one of the most hot button topics surrounding weak links... lockouts.
People will rail up and down that weaklinks do not protect against lockouts... which they don't.
But this is a half truth.
The whole truth is that while they don't prevent them, they help.
Sure Jim - when you're high enough that nothing matters anyway.
Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.
- The pressure forces, right?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout
Ryan Voight - 2010/09/07 02:50:00 UTC
Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.
There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.
- I thought you professionals were all in lockstep on all these issues.
This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.
A weak link being, of course, a loop of 130 pound Greenspot - and ONLY a loop of 130 pound Greenspot.
The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.
Yeah? When was the last time it WAS done on an HGMA certified glider? When was the last time this happened to ANY glider? Nineteen-seventy-what?
So think about it.
What the fuck would you know about THINKING?
How is this accomplished?
Simply put... lock out.
So, in a lock out, the forces can very rapidly get so high as to destroy the glider?
Yeah. VERY rapidly. To well over six Gs. Good freakin' luck.
So then, weaklinks do not help in a lock out situation?
Hang Glider Lock-Out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnrh9-pOiq4
MorphFX - 2011/03/20
A hang glider pilot learning to aerotow starts a mild PIO that leads into a lock-out.
dead
02-00319
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/15601000807_705ab49977_o.png
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5606/15600335029_3c234e6828_o.png
14-03708
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6995.html#p6995
Sure. (If you're high enough.)
You can see what I'm getting at here can't you?
Yeah Jim, I CAN.
Argue all you like about the "true" purpose of a weaklink... but it's only you that's arguing.
Yeah. He hasn't been banned yet. Turn my mic back on and I'll shove your balls down your throat in about two seconds.
I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.
That's 'cause you don't look for any and conveniently ignore the stuff that comes across the wire.
I only find a disconnect when they're talking to the general public, and it always boils down to semantics.
See, we're not confused.
I'll give ya that, Jim. You're just as certain about everything in towing as a Jehovah's Witness is about the origins of life on Earth.
You're searching for an argument and only finding it within yourself.
Stick around a bit.
This btw is one of the main reasons that most of the professionals do not bother with the forums.
The main reason that most of you professionals do not bother with the forums is that people like me would shove your balls down your throats in about two seconds.
Cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here.
Instead of looking for an argument, you may consider listening instead.
To a total shithead like you? You think that's gonna make any difference to someone with an IQ out of the single digits?
Zack C - 2011/08/26 03:54:21 UTC
Jim,
Before I respond, what do you advocate as an appropriate weak link strength for aerotowing and why? Thanks.
Christopher LeFay - 2011/08/26 04:37:14 UTC
Ahh... the saga continues. Both sides charging up vacant hills to fight imagined foes. Rhetorical questions, caustic accusations, self aggrandizing proclamations, defensive blather.
Of course, flight park staff make mistakes. Routine produces refinement - and complacency; the former is to be lauded, while the later guarded against. We have no shared mechanism for assessing accident rates and cause, and no one is assured by blanket assertions of professional infallibility. The question of fallibility of professionals isn't the issue.
There was no release mechanism malfunction associated with the event described by Lauren; there are a plethora of release methods/mechanisms with individual qualities to recommend them - all of which has previously been discussed at length. This doesn't mean the topic isn't a worthy one - just not an issue here.
Brad Gryder:
*snip* ...in actual practice, especially at a busy flight park, the tug [pilot] has limited time to maintain his "Master"weak link at 100%, so it will degrade in strength until he finds time to replace it. *snip* The Tug Pilot is responsible for his weak link and must manage it accordingly. Same for the other end. They both must be prepared for the worst while hoping for better.
Kinsley Sykes:
An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from... *snip* ...letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
As a mater of routine, determined periodic replacement of the week links should be incorporated to guard against premature release due to defect and the dependent subjugation of the system with the use of 'strong' links; inspection of week links for length to avoid wrapping and subsequent variance in break force. Is there an argument to made against either course of action?
Steve Davy - 2011/08/26 05:03:46 UTC
Troll.
Ditto.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC
Hahahaha.
That seriously made me chuckle.
I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans...
You're just what's left of humans after several thousand years of selective breeding to minimize brain size.
...bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.
From the front end of the towline at which ANY weak link break works to your advantage.
We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas.
Just like the Texas School Board discusses and vets biology class curriculums and textbooks.
This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.
And are all even more clueless than you were twenty years ago.
It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else.
Fuck that. You're the dregs we use to get off the ground and start doing some REAL flying. You're unnecessarily evil necessary evils.
And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.
As long as you have a sufficiently broad definition of the word "works".
So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
Yeah, you certainly wouldn't want to contaminate anything within the purview of the tug driver cult with any hint of theory.
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit...
Right.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
You MANDATE shit. Motherfucker.
I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
"WE" again being the douchebags up front who get to keep on flying - BETTER - anytime they dump back on the runway the glider that's PAYING them to get them up.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
Yeah. Fuck the glider pilots. OUR way or the runway.
Donnell Hewett - 1982/09
Skyting is designed to give the pilot more control over his flight than any other member of the flight crew.
So much for that concept.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Any and all friends of yours are SCUM.
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
Laugh it up, asshole.
John Fritsche - 2011/08/26 06:07:24 UTC
Lompoc
I intentionally broke a weak link by severely and intentionally locking out on aerotow at about 2,000 feet. Why I did this is a long story. But the weak link served its purpose. As I was locking out, I was forcing the tail of the tug up and sideways in a big way, and the tug pilot said he was about to give me the rope when the weak link (at my end) snapped.
So in other words...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC
Yesterday I chased Paul again. The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around. Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links, though Tad's barrel releases do seem better able to release under stress.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link
Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
The lockout Lauren mentioned was precipitated by my attempt to pull on more VG while on tow. I have done this before but this time the line wouldn't cleat properly and while I was fighting it, I got clobbered and rolled hard right in a split second. There was a very large noise and jerk as the relatively heavy weak link at the tug broke giving me the rope. I recovered quickly from the wing over and flew back to the field to drop the line and then re-launched after changing to a normal weak link. I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do. Had the tugs link not broken, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. I still don't like weak links breaking when they shouldn't, but the one I was using was way too strong.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
...ANY weak link capable of getting a glider off the ground is also capable of pulling either or both of the planes dangerously out of control and within a range of 0.5 to 2.0 Gs the strength makes little difference and Lauren, Paul, and Jim are full of shit.
Put another way...
It's the degree to which the planes are misaligned that's the overwhelming problem that dwarfs the issue of maximum allowable tension and Lauren, Paul, and Jim are full of shit.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/26 06:26:40 UTC
edited 2 times in total
How convenient for you. Troll.
Christopher LeFay - 2011/08/26 07:08:08 UTC
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Beautiful!
... and it bloody well works.
...except for when it doesn't. When it doesn't, we talk about the why so that we can reach for won't.
We've got the exceptions - they're called fatality reports.
There are a few ideological crusaders masquerading as nonpartisan seekers of truth- you've encountered them a billion times... and skin has grown thin. Unless one has a personal connection, there's little fruit born by arguing with evangelists (for the evangelist, it is sweet nectar). The underpinnings of this historied debate isn't readily apparent to the uninitiated, who would most benefit from topical dialog. To speak to them, reason has to be expounded beyond the short cut 'trust us, we do this a lot'; cause, purpose, reason - education. Testing the assertions of educators isn't an affront - it's the role of the student. To be credible, the educator has to appear open to growth.
I'm not advocating suffering fools gladly - just say'n the fool isn't your audience (if it is - well, count yourself in that camp, too).
Huh? How 'bout addressing something of substance on the actual issues under discussion?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC
John, careful, once you say "it's purpose", you're going to get flooded by semantic mongers that will argue to the ends of the earth what "the purpose" of a weak link is.
Mind you, I say you're right... it prevented you from tearing the wings off your glider... this made you safer... mission accomplished. You hitting the release would also serve this purpose... but that doesn't matter. All that matters is that you did not break your glider and you did not break yourself or the tug or tug pilot... mission accomplished.
(Mission accomplished... Now where have I heard THAT expression before...) No, shithead. That actually ISN'T all that matters. You've also gotta figure what happens to stuff AFTER the weak link blows.
Chicago Sun-Times - 2005/10/06
An airplane towed the hang glider into the air, with plans to reach 3,000 feet before the cable was released and their tandem hang glide began, an attorney said.
But two hundred feet into that ascent, the cable snapped, and the hang glider plummeted to the ground, smashing to pieces and instantly killing Thompson and Birkett.
On Wednesday, Thompson's family filed a negligence lawsuit against the company, demanding unspecified damages but also hoping to find out how the crash happened.
"They're two hundred feet in the air, and while normally they would glide to the ground, this hang glider nose-dived to the ground," attorney Matthew Rundio said. "We need to find out why that happened."
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
You hitting the release would also serve this purpose... but that doesn't matter.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
You're nit picking over what you call the "true purpose"... but all you're griping about is a definition... and an erroneous one at that.
This is why "true purposes" and "definitions" are critical.
Danny Brotto - 2007/05/16 23:15:19 UTC
Weak links are not a secondary release system...
The PURPOSE of the weak link is to hold to the point at which the structure is becoming in danger of being overloaded and blow when it does.
The PURPOSE of the release is to hold the glider on tow and let it off at the sole discretion of THE PILOT.
Christopher, I get what you're saying.
The trouble is that people just absolutely refuse to accept answers they don't like.
And/or the ones from total morons that totally suck.
I don't say "trust me" and move on.
But when I say "this is what we do and it works", I'm sick to death of hearing BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!
Bullshit.
Bullshit? Really? Isn't it the least bit disconcerting to you that your hearing that you're wrong to the extent that you're sick to death of it?
This thread started with just that... OH MY GOD!!!! I can't believe you're doing things this way!!!!!
Yeah, just a moronic example of a tow operator from the pinnacle of perfection in the sport deliberately configuring her equipment in a manner in which the weak link will predictably weld itself to another component - not that unlike the configuration that killed Robin Strid on 2005/01/09.
I guess the real problem is that - knowing well the individual assholes involved in the Quest/Ridgely clique which precipitated this atrocity - I CAN totally believe they're doing things that way. In fact, I'd be totally astonished if they weren't.
To which my answer is... F you... we've been doing it this way for years... successfully.
Fuck you too. We've got extremely different concepts of the adverb "successfully".
Now, start the conversation differently, with actual questions, not "YOU MORONS!!!!" and then I'd agree with you.
Sorry Jim. You morons have no answers to any questions I need to hear.
I don't suffer fools lightly.
I thought you said you had friends.
I also do not suffer armchair experts... lightly or otherwise.
The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
By the way... It was armchair experts who invented the goddam Rogallo wing in the first place. And without them assholes like you would hafta find some other way to maim and kill people.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/26 07:35:07 UTC
Before I respond, what do you advocate as an appropriate weak link strength for aerotowing and why? Thanks.
Is this an "actual" question?
Yeah, it's an actual question. Two of them actually. Good luck getting a sane answer.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC
Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.
Yeah, I had a real good feeling that God was at the root of all this.
It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.
Can I check the original material? Where is it? Genesis? Leviticus? Revelations?
See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.
Just those of the douchebags who control this sport already.
You're late to the game. Very late.
My firsts:
- 1991/08/02 - Dragonfly tow
- 1986/08/01 - aerotow
- 1980/11/14 - tow
I don't remember seeing you around on any of those occasions. And if you had been I'd have remembered. Useless little shits tend to make lasting impressions on me.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
Yeah Rodent. Come on in and have a glass of the Kool-Aid.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.
Bullshit.
Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?
None of you assholes has ever thought of anything. You just keep doing things the same ways 'cause those are the ways they've always been done.
We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4049
Towing errata
Bill Bryden - 2004/04/01 16:20:18 UTC
Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.
Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
And you think we need to be told this?
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.
Up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down...
So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.
Doing the same thing over and over and being perfectly happy with the shit results 'cause it's almost never your ass. And even if it is, hell, the good people of New Zealand will pick up the tab for putting it back together.
Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.
Exactly what HAVE you explored? And where are the reports of the failures so that nobody foolish enough to try something different will wind up the way Robin did (using "tried and true" equipment)?
BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
Sure they have.
This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.
Yeah, you douchebags are the world's best when it comes out to throwing out ideas.
But that's the gods honest truth.
Straight from the mouth of God's Special Little Official Spokesman.
This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.
Yeah Jim?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
What's the best way to control the glider when you're locked out low using both hands to pry a very very reliable bent pin release open and don't have the luxury of waiting for the tug's weak link to blow?
You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.
Go fuck yourself. And tell Adam, Steve Wendt, Bo Hagewood, and Steve Kroop to go fuck themselves too.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/26 07:59:43 UTC
Before I respond, what do you advocate as an appropriate weak link strength for aerotowing and why? Thanks.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC
Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.
I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.
Works as lot better than WHAT bullshit to accomplish WHAT? Does it limit lockouts better? Blow when the pilot wants to remain on less frequently? Keep the tails of Dragonflies from getting pulled around as much?
130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
It's in the case - right between the bent pin releases and hook knives.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/612
hang gliding Comments on outlandish release/bridle/weak link
Tracy Tillman - 2001/05/25 01:01:56 UTC
We normally use 130 lb., but we now also have 150 lb. on hand for heavier pilots in draggier gliders. I use 150 lb. for pro-towing, but Lisa still uses 130 lb. for pro-towing. I use 130 lb when using my regular towing bridle.
Tracy uses 130 for two point but 150 for one. That's 'cause there's a greater load on the end of a one point bridle than there is on the end of a two.
Did I miss any?
Nah, you've got it as thoroughly covered as you're ever gonna be able.
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
Yeah. You, God, and all the other egomaniacal Flight Park Mafia douchebags.
I didn't make the system up.
Nah, some other brain damaged little shit did.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)
Yeah, Bent Pin Bobby. Fucking genius.
http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks
Davis Straub - 1999/06/06
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
Even if he is too fucking stupid to be able to figure out that:
- he tows tandem gliders with doubled weaklinks and hasn't died yet
- the weak link on the glider end doesn't neutralize the one at the front
Steve Davy - 2011/08/26 09:43:03 UTC
12-01.08 Two-Place Flights
A. Hang glider flights conducted under FAR 103 are restricted by federal aviation regulation to single place operations, except where they are conducted under the Tandem Exemption granted to the USHPA by the FAA. Such operations conducted under the Tandem Exemption are required by the terms of the exemption to be conducted under the applicable rules and procedures of USHPA SOP 12-02 and its supplements.
12-01.09 Aero Towing Operations
B. Aero towing flights in hang gliders which are not conducted under FAR Part 61 and FAR Part 91 are conducted under the FAA Towing Exemption. Such operations are required by the terms of the exemption to be conducted under the applicable rules and procedures of USHPA SOP 12-02 and its supplements.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 09:55:52 UTC
Yeah, so?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC
Oh, btw... before you go there, cuz it is where you're headed... please note the word "Guidelines".
Yeah, when you're already pissing all over whatever REGULATIONS you feel like why even bother pausing to look at "Guidelines"?
Or advisories?
http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
We don't need no steenking advisories! Fuck advisories! Even when your GOOD FRIEND Steve Kroop's name is on the bottom of it. (USHGA's lawyer probably made him do that.)
As I said.
Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.
No danger of that, little hardwired shithead.
Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/26 11:22:17 UTC
Whitewater
Ahh... the saga continues. Both sides charging up vacant hills to fight imagined foes. Rhetorical questions, caustic accusations, self aggrandizing proclamations, defensive blather.
The only one missing in this melodrama is USHPA's safety committees.
Yeah, let's bring in THE EXPERTS. Maybe Joe Gregor would grace us with a few words.
there's a reason for that, just not a good one.
Kinda depends on what your definition of "good" is.
Or should it be up to the glider manufacturer.
Yeah. If they'd do their fuckin' jobs.
Doyle - 2011/08/26 11:27:31 UTC
I guess its real not a joke but was worth reading.
Stuff worth reading? You wanna read stuff? I can direct you to LOTS of stuff worth reading.
Zack C - 2011/08/26 12:39:26 UTC
Jim,
I asked what weak link strength you advocate because I'm not even sure if we disagree. You use something different from me, but I don't know if you're opposed to what I use.
The heart of the disagreement, if there is one, is that for those that see the sole purpose of the weak link as preventing structural failure of the glider, it makes no sense to use a stronger weak link when truck towing as when aerotowing. The glider can take the same amount of stress regardless of the tow method. For those that see the weak link as lockout protection, it seems, lighter is safer.
Those aren't the people we wanna keep in the discussion - or gene pool.
Yes, I agree that tension increases in an aerotow lockout...
Not necessarily. It CAN decrease.
What REALLY increases the tension is pushing out. The glider can be rolled and slicing down.
...and that if a lockout continues to progress the weak link will eventually break.
Eventually.
However, line tension is not a direct linear function of misalignment. By the time tension escalates enough to break the weak link you could be well into a lockout. If you're near the ground you could crash before it breaks. In any event, you should have released long before that - which is why I'd say a weak link should never 'help' in a lockout situation. And yet, when you go to Wallaby's site, you read "If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble."
In a two point (or three point as some call it...) configuration, the ubiquitous 130 lb Greenspot loop allows somewhere around 240 lbs of towline tension.
DON'T *TELL* HIM THAT! When Ridgely "trained" him they were telling everybody that the loop held to 260 and the towline stayed to 520.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
Davis,
Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the OR with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.
A discussion of the strength of weak links is incomplete without a discussion of the tow bridal. I hear (read) strengths quoted with respect to the combined pilot and glider weight yet this is meaningless info with out knowing what bridal configuration is used and where it is placed in the bridal system. For example, a 200# weak link can allow between 200# and 800# of towline force depending on where it is placed within the various popular bridal configurations.
On the tow plane we use 1-1/2 loops (3 strands) of 130# line. The weak link is placed in the top of a V-bridal which would yield a maximum nominal towline tension of around 780#. However, due to the fact the knots (two are required since there are three strands) are not "buried" the maximum towline tension is greatly reduced. I do not know the exact tow line tension required to break this weak link but the value is somewhat moot since the weak link is not too strong so as to cause any damage to the tow plane and it is not too weak to leave the glider pilot with the towline.
Humiliate him by asking him that and showing that he has no more clue than any of his douchebag friends.
That isn't anywhere close to breaking a glider. If you're using a weak link that light for the purpose of protecting you from a lockout, we disagree about what the weak link is for. Those that understand that isn't its job are totally cool with a 1.5 G link because weak link breaks can be dangerous.
http://www.dynamicflight.com.au/WeakLinks.html
Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but that looks like professional disagreement to me.
I disagree that the 130 lb loop 'works'. Works to do what? Yes, it prevents structural failure, but it also breaks at a lot of inopportune times (depending on the pilot/glider/configuration), sometimes resulting in damage or injury. A 1.5 G weak link will be just as effective in preventing structural failure.
If everyone started using 1.5 G links, would we start seeing an increase in the number of tow related crashes? Are we seeing more crashes for the lightest pilots for whom a 130 lb loop is 1.5 Gs?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/20 01:58:06 UTC
The lighter pilots are flying higher Gs with the one size fits all weak link and thus having fewer problems. They're the serendipitous winners of this game.
Brian Vant-Hull - 2008/11/20 13:16:41 UTC
This was what convinced me, though I admit in large part it was because I don't have to do much (I'm around 1 g). If I was around 0.5 g I'd be kicking and screaming to prevent having to make a change. I also admit that if I had a bicycle release instead of a lookout pullstring release, I'd be slow to make the change. It's the same reason I'm not a vegetarian: I tend towards moral indolence.
Yes, there are dangers to increasing the weak length strength, but since I'm concentrating so hard when near the ground and I have my finger literally on the release, I can deal with it faster than the link can. Up high when I'm dozing off it's not quite as critical. Deepfloat points out that once you are definitely in a lockout situation (in this case deliberately induced, and most likely you would have released before this) the weaklink often does tend to break before the pilot panics and releases, but since nobody's making weaker weak links for light pilots, stronger weak links for large pilots are indicated.
Just don't go above what the tug has or you'll get the rope and be unhappy.
Tommy Thompson - 2011/08/26 11:22:17 UTC
Or should it be up to the glider manufacturer.
It is my understanding that sailplane manufacturers specify the weak link strengths to use for their gliders. Makes a lot more sense to me...
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
Greenspot is now black.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
And you couldn't figure out some way to blame it on pilot incompetence this time? What was the problem? Too many big names?
Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).
- So when you wrote THIS:
http://ozreport.com/12.081
Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
you were totally full of shit.
- And Bobby's totally full of shit.
- The SAME Russell Brown I almost killed at the SAME Zapata three years ago by putting Paul Tjaden up on a one and a half G weak link which held longer than the tug's?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12587
weak links (here we go)
Patrick Halfhill - 2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC
Pittsburgh
Another pilot that was convinced at the ECC that he needed a stronger weaklink, took his to Texas and I believe through it away after a near death experience.
Some things just sound better on paper than they actually work in real life.
I appreciate your effort and your input. You should also consider the input of people that actually use these things in real life.
So three years after I "convinced" Paul that he needed a stronger weak link and almost killed him and Russell the "people that actually use these things in real life" are now doing what I was - three years ago?
Fuck you, Pat.
Zack C - 2011/08/26 16:52:43 UTC
I thought Greenspot was always available in black. Is it now only black?
Four strands of Greenspot on a spectra bridle has been tested to break around 200 pounds. In a 'pro tow' configuration this will allow a line tension of around 400 pounds, which is about 1.5 Gs for a 270 pound pilot/glider combination. Sounds good to me.
Not quite as much to me.
Except the tug weak link will almost assuredly break first.
Almost?
Another gotcha...try pulling a curved pin barrel release loaded to 200 pounds.
32 pound pull. (Versus ten for a straight pin.)
I've never tried but I've read reports of tandem pilots being unable to trigger them under higher loads.
And lower. Lauren couldn't move hers at about a hundred - or less.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
Zach,
We're not in disagreement. In fact, you're reiterating all kinds of stuff that I try to get across to people all the time.
As I said, I've been through this a million freaking times.
Which is ok.
I don't mind clarifying it for people.
CLARIFYING? Is that what you're calling it?
What I do mind is that when there is disagreement, it is generally NOT me that is wrong.
Right. 'Cause you do this all the time. It's your job. You couldn't POSSIBLY be wrong. And you just told us you're generally right.
Yet people persist in telling me bla bla bla. I don't care if people disagree with me... cuz I know they're wrong. It makes me sad.
I'd prefer you suicidally depressed with easy access to a huge bottles of barbiturates and Bourbon.
The heart of the disagreement, if there is one, is that for those that see the sole purpose of the weak link as preventing structural failure of the glider
Which is not me.
Those people can get stuffed... they're wrong.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)
Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
Remember, a weak link improves safety.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
In the opinion of the great majority of our club members, a light weak link break is as likely to endanger the pilot as to help him.
I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline. The pilot must always take full responsibility for his own safety.
Dennis Pagen - 1993/04
Next to a low stall and line break due to a gust, the event most likely to maim on tow is a lockout.
Say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in.
Just like they have you do at church to get you to believe whatever lunatic crap they want you to.
And take that straw man argument and burn it please.
Do NOT skip this little bit...
pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that
It's none of his fucking business. You're legally entitled to fly up to two Gs and he's got a responsibility to stay a hundred pounds above you. PERIOD.
See, Russel knows what's up.
Yeah. Sure he does.
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.
Right. 'Cause as we all know - you're use of a stronger weak link will make the one at his end stronger.
Or maybe if he uses a three hundred pound weak link and you use a four the planes will stay connected to seven. I never really know. It's so hard for me to figure out these equations.
Some people I'll tow like this. Some I won't. Most that do this are the type I won't. At the end of the day, it's my call, not yours.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Yeah, you despicable little shit. That's why we need people like you have their asses sued off.
Except the tug weak link will almost assuredly break first.
No, actually it doesn't.
In
theory it does.
In practice, it's not so cut and dry.
Sometimes it goes, sometimes the tug's goes.
Oh. You geniuses have spent twenty years perfecting this game but you can't get up to the level at which sailplanes have been since the beginning of time.
Another gotcha...try pulling a curved pin barrel release loaded to 200 pounds.
I have.
It's tighter. It's not that much tighter.
Yeah. Just 3.28 times tighter.
One of the many weaklinks in the system breaks before the releases become unusable.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Sure it does.
Have we considered straight pin releases?
Yes.
I'm mostly fine with them...
Oh! I'm SO relieved!
...as I've said many times in the past by the way.
Do be aware that they have their issues as well. In contrast to his holliness's assertions...
Yeah. You're God's appointed messenger for "honest truth" and I'm His Holiness - sorry, "Holliness".
they can jam. I've had one do so, so he can get stuffed, he's wrong. It has to do with how they're built, specifically, the line on the pilot end crunches up cuz it's too tight of a tolerance for the small barrel that's necessary to use with a straight pin.
Bullshit. This isn't even worth responding to.
My point is that everything has issues. Everything. Period.
Yeah. Just like VG systems. Fail all the time.
Will I fly with a straight pin release? Sure.
Does it have the track record of the curved pins? No.
And that couldn't possibly be due to the fact that you shitheads have flooded the market with your cheap shoddy crap, could it?
Does it have limitations that the curved pins don't? Yes, yes it does.
Do they matter? Depends on your situation.
Bullshit.
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink. (it doesn't quite fit the same) OH! Right. Just might be that we've thought of that eh?
- Bullshit.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?
Holger Selover-Stephan - 2010/05/28 22:16:33 UTC
I ordered and received a few barrel releases from Blue Sky. They have straight pins, not the curved ones I'm used to. Steve at Blue Sky tells me this:
...they [the curved pins] don't release with as little tension on them as the straight pins. Otherwise, there is no difference. It makes it hard to put just a rope on the barrel end, which encourages a weak link. Just a good idea. That's why we've been shifting that way, as are many other manufacturers of these releases.
- But when Steve Wendt encourages weak link installations at release connections it's a GOOD thing.
I've never tried but I've read reports of tandem pilots being unable to trigger them under higher loads.
Not quite.
Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218
rules
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC
I am not sure if our barrel release failed or not. I did try to hit it and failed to release one time. Did I hit it? I am not sure.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC
Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.
The story just gets more and more convenient, doesn't it?
I showed her how to release under load by hanging from a single pin release that was suspended from the ceiling with a foot loop so I could stand on it.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Again, we've been through this a million times before you've even come to the table.
I'm glad to see someone is listening rather than arguing.
Yeah, you don't like it much when someone has the temerity to disagree with you, do you?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 20:10:14 UTC
It apparently has only been available in black for the last two years. But there is plenty of green around in warehouses and stores and at flight parks.
Never had a problem with being able to pull the curved pin release...
Well GREAT!!! Then we can all just ignore:
Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Yeah!
This release won't accidently open by hitting your base tube, if you connect it to your chest tabs. It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away. Much stronger than your weaklink. I change bridles about once a year after about fifty tows. I've never had one break.
What more could you POSSIBLY ask for in a release! Unless you wanted one that would release!
I have had a problem with the curved pin sometimes releasing when and if the weaklink breaks if I use the thin bridles (see here:
http://ozreport.com/goodies.php).
Yeah!
The top one is the Spectra, the bottom, the Vectran. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away. Much stronger than your weaklink. I change my bridle once a year after about fifty tows.
What more could you POSSIBLY ask for in a bridle!
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Unless you wanted a short thick one that wouldn't tie itself to the tow ring over half the time in a lockout situation!
I assume that the thicker spectra bridles jam up the barrel a bit more to keep it from releasing
Well, yeah. You should just ASSUME stuff instead of trying to get your walnut sized little brain working to make stuff safe and reliable.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 20:10:56 UTC
Oh, and BTW, Tad is clueless as well as being a child molester (no kidding).
Yeah, by the way, Tad is clueless as well as being a child molester (no kidding). So when Tad is being proven right on everything he's been saying for the past couple of decades and everything you've been standing behind is catastrophically and rapidly crumbling - just divert everyone's attention with an Oscar Wilde attack and hope they'll be too stupid to see EXACTLY what you're doing. Don't worry - the vast majority of them WILL.
I've never been happier that I'm me - and not you, Rooney, or any other of the slimy halfwitted douchebags in your pornographic little cult. And never have been or will be ANYTHING like you.
