instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Steve Davy]

Speaking of Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight. Have a look at this gem:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=142189#142189

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13635
What exactly is high-siding?

We can't seem to get any reasonable consensus on what "just prior to launch" really means and we've been towing for over a third of a century on a foundation of Hewett Skyting Theory which has a sideways pull on the pilot autocorrecting lockout rolls so let's have Ryan give us the vector diagrams to illustrate why it's impossible for a hang glider to stabilize in a coordinated turn.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32179
Let's do it now--paradigm shift re sideslips and pitch coord

Christopher Carrillo - 2014/12/23 06:26:51 UTC
Bay Area

Steve,

You've created a discussion that quite honestly has exhausted me, and while I don't want to speak for anyone else, I don't think I am alone.

Probably not. "Worlds largest Hang Gliding community" over there. No bothersome apostrophe so typical hang glider types tend to feel right at home.

I can't speak of why others were drawn in...

Probably 'cause hang gliding culture majorly selects against individuals who engage on the positive side in discussions...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

I suspect that some of the parties that have posted in threads like these before are refraining now since they have learned that it is nearly (completely?) impossible to change people's minds on the topic.

...on real problematic issues with actual solutions available.

...but I was because of one reason, safety.

Bullshit. We've got tons of issues in hang gliding that are crashing gliders left and right. This ain't one of them.

How many times have we seen or heard of novice pilots coming precipitously close to catching a wingtip, impacting a cliff or obstacle or even another glider because they lost too much altitude, sometimes very suddenly, in a poorly executed turn?

For all practical purposes - NEVER. Hard, controlled, coordinated turns are Hang Two requirements bullshit. They're fun and easy and anybody with a halfway competent instructor and a fair chunk of the aptitude he'll need to be a pilot can and should be doing them just fine after several lessons.

But, nah, we have to have everybody flying on the downtubes in upright-only harnesses in permanent foot landing mode being taught to never allow the glider to be rolled more than five degrees below five hundred feet.

And then we have this related...

http://ozreport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

2010/06/26 - John Seward

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn. Because his altitude was nearly eye level for me, it's difficult to judge what his body was doing in the turn. And because the turn was smooth throughout, it would make sense that he was cross controlling the turn. It was also supported by Dan's observations.

..."CROSS controlling" bullshit.

I think the one useful POSITIVE thing I learned from Mike Robertson was that the best way to teach somebody to do something the wrong way is to describe the wrong way to do it and tell them not to do it that way.

There's a total epidemic of people on gliders convinced that the best way to turn them is to twist their bodies around their suspension points. They're doing this because that is what they've - effectively - been TAUGHT to do. And it must be right 'cause these same instructors are signing them off on their Twos and Threes with their skills being demonstrated on that foundation.

Yeah, Steve's created a discussion on coordinated turns, slips, skids that's quite exhausted you.

USHGA - 1981/05

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...

We have four topics over here:

You are NEVER hooked in.
Releases
Weak links
landing

dedicated to those concepts with 715, 701, 1387, 1010 posts respectively, each having tens of thousands of hits, and have had only the mildest of success getting them across. So good freakin' luck getting Joe Glider Jockey tuned into Steve's material and having it make a difference somewhere.

And if you get a chance please post a video or report of some novice pilot coming precipitously close to catching a wingtip or impacting a cliff or obstacle or even another glider because he lost too much altitude.

How many times have we seen or heard of novice pilots coming precipitously close to catching a wingtip, impacting a cliff or obstacle or even another glider because they lost too much altitude, sometimes very suddenly, in a poorly executed turn?

Guess we can't get a video or report of an actual crash or midair because, for reasons I'm afraid I'm having trouble grasping, these novice pilots with their inabilities to properly understand coordinated turns, slips, skids never seem to get more than PRECIPITOUSLY CLOSE to disaster.

Christopher Carrillo - 93182 - H4 - 2014/02/25 - Eric Hinrichs - FL CL FSL TUR

Any comments, Eric? How come your student's passionately involved in this discussion and you're not?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32236
Aerotow Rating

Mel Torres - 2014/12/27 03:30:44 UTC

I went to Florida to visit my parents for Christmas and decided to head to Wallaby Ranch today (12/26/2014). I left with my aerotow rating!

Reminds me a lot of:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

Did you read this TOTAL CRAP:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2014/12/27

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT!

that Wallaby's been spewing for the better part of seventeen years? Have you read it in conjunction with:

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1

You really think your fuckin' Wallaby AT rating is worth the paper it's printed on, you now know what the fuck you're doing and talking about well enough to be getting on a cart behind a Dragonfly?

Maybe you can tell us all exactly what went wrong with this one:

37-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

and what you'd be able to do differently and better with respect to that situation to come out of it smelling like a rose.

Walt Conklin - 2014/12/27 14:24:53 UTC
Congratulations !

Bullshit.

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png


Keep working on that flare timing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39919
Bob Kuczewski's video log

Davis Straub - 2014/12/05 23:55:13 UTC

Bob was banned from this forum because he continually broke the clearly stated rules against personal attacks on other members of the forum.

Hey Davis...

- Where exactly are these "clearly stated rules against personal attacks on other members of the forum"?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10
Welcome to, and policies of, the Oz Report discussion group

I couldn't find them there. Got a link to something else I haven't been able to find.

- So personal attacks are perfectly OK just as long as the targets aren't members of the forum. If T** at K*** S****** has spent hundreds of hours developing, testing, documenting, photographing a balloon drop system it's perfectly OK to represent a photo of part of the suspension system as "Tad Eareckson's latest tow release", tell whatever other lies about him one feels like, refer to him as a senile deranged eunuch.

-- Someone is totally OK making personal attacks on some total fucking asshole like Dr. Trisa Tilletti as long as he's not a Davis Show member.

-- If some total fucking asshole like Dr. Trisa Tilletti is being personally attacked on The Davis Show all he needs to do is register and the personal attacks will have to stop.

-- We can't attack a total fucking asshole like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney but if he runs off a ramp with his carabiner dangling and takes a little better bounce or his Davis Link increases the safety of the towing operation for him to the extent that it did for Zack Marzec it's perfectly OK to start pissing all over him a nanosecond after he's pronounced dead.

- If you want to personally attack a member and/or want other members to have that privilege all you need to do is click the ban button - with zero pretense of a justification - and he's instant fair game, and totally unable to defend himself and counterattack on that venue.

- And I guess there must be some clause somewhere exempting the individual who enforces the clearly stated rules against personal attacks on other members of the forum...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad obviously completely lacks social intelligence and probably a few other forms of intelligence. Also, he obviously has other mental health issues.

...from adhering to the clearly stated rules against personal attacks on other members of the forum. And, motherfucker:

-- If you wanna try to make the case that that wasn't a flagrant violation of the clearly stated rules against personal attacks on other members of the forum then you quote something from Bob that better meets the criteria.

-- How 'bout quoting something that could be construed as evidence of Tad's lack of various forms of intelligence and obvious other mental issues.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=990
Interesting article involving Davis Straub

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Stupid brain damaged lying sociopathic dickhead.

[Tad Eareckson]

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/29 23:41:47 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16991
High wind ground handling

Matthew Hendershot - 2010/05/06 22:00:46 UTC

I only have a little over 30 hours...

Hang Three times fifteen.

Steve Davy - 2014/12/30 00:18:10 UTC

Check your math.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/30 02:18:50 UTC

My math was OK, it was my fact checking that sucked. It was two hours when I got mine in '82. Holy shit. Eastern airtime - 'specially in the absence of aerotowing - is a whole lot harder to get than California airtime.

Steve Davy - 2014/12/30 00:51:38 UTC

I didn't know that. I figured it was ten hours since the beginning of time.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/30 02:18:50 UTC

2006/10 is the earliest copy of the SOPs I have on the drive and it was ten then. It would've had to have gone up in steps and it would be interesting to see what and when they were and what the justification was.

I think it's an Industry scam. Offer crappy instruction, force upright flying, wide approaches, traffic cone targeting - increase the duration of dependency.

Steve Davy - 2014/12/30 07:34:47 UTC

Reminds me of when I got my Two in 2009, and Pat Denevan told me how Twos should not be attempting to soar. Motherfucker was trying to keep me on his money machine i.e. his ten hours on surface tow program.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/30 08:51:19 UTC

Yeah, that's some math that's definitely adding up nicely in line with the prediction of the model.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/31 18:58:11 UTC

You got any objection to anything in this exchange being posted to the forum?

Steve Davy - 2014/12/31 19:13:24 UTC

No objections at all.

Tad Eareckson - 2014/12/31 19:25:37 UTC

Cool. Should make an interesting little subtopic.

Maybe it didn't go up in steps. I remember when I was closing in a bit on my Four and the airtime requirement abruptly rocketed up from 25 hours to triple that. I carpooled with John Woiwode to the Nationals at the Sequatchie Valley in the spring of '88 and remember a discussion in which he'd commented on the inadequacies and being one of the main movers in the adjustment.

Well...

John Woiwode - 29456 - H5 - 1982/05/23 - D. Batman - AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - Exp: 2006/11/30

We should all know just how much use his Master rating was to him with respect to his long term survival in the sport. If he'd traded that in for a solid 2.0 and some common sense he could've still been in one piece and kicking ass in comps.

[Tad Eareckson]

Competence, intelligence, integrity eliminated from the leadership / power structure. Arms broken left and right in the pursuit of safe landing ability. Mandatory tandem instruction. Towing equipment degraded at every opportunity. Illegally safe weak links keeping gliders baking in the launch line on the best flying days. Accident reporting system completely gutted. Shit instructors/instruction. Junk textbooks. Magazine turned to total crap. Free speech demolished in all mainstream forums in the name of pseudo-civility and community cohesiveness...

Raise the airtime requirements.

Hang Four is bullshit.

Any site that can't be safely flown by a solid 2.0 who's been taught how to shoot landing approaches can't be flown safely by anyone. I don't have a problem with Twos being under supervision at demanding sites and/or in demanding conditions but somebody tell me why Yosemite needs a Four other than to restrict traffic. And do we really need to talk about Torrey?

Three... Take the supervision requirement off (as we've always done - 'cept for Trisa based aerotowing where you have to go up tandem to learn how to stay inside the Cone of Safety and recover from a Rooney Link inconvenience with the glider straight and level in smooth air at two thousand feet).

So where were we seeing the accident reports that indicated that the airtime requirement for a Three needed to be quintupled? Where was the discussion? Where was the announcement in the magazine?

For as long as I've been in the sport there's been massive frustration with the process of getting to a Three and having the restrictions lifted. And now more than ever it's obvious to me that this is totally by design.

The Instructor Certification Program is a scumbag magnet. If you don't believe me look around at what we have. Fuckin' Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney was widely revered as an instructor god until we totally demolished him in 2013.

Wanna follow your dream of free flight? OK, but first you have to pay me to open that door a crack for you. And you're gonna have to pay me for a long time to get it to something resembling open while I give you shit instruction on shit equipment - 'specially a REALLY safe weak link - teaching you to master skills that are impossible for anyone to master, totally useless, and dangerous. And I'm gonna do everything I can to undermine your self confidence to help keep you under my control and from seeing what I'm doing to you.

The Two to Three transition is a hazing experience. College clubs and fraternities haze the incoming stuff - occasionally fatally - when it's outlawed because it appeals to sadistic natures. In hang gliding the sadists get paid for doing it and have rigged the system so it's not just legal, it's mandatory.

Any big surprise the sport's dying?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

Willie VanRocker - 2015/01/25 17:55:26 UTC
Stoney Creek, Ontario

Sad day. It looks like we have lost a fellow pilot in Victoria, Australia.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/watch/victorian-man-killed-in-hang-gliding-accident/vi-AA8x4Hf

Prayers to the family.

Why? God obviously wanted this guy dead. It would've been a real simple matter for him to tip him off, give him a heads up a few seconds in advance of the critical moment. So what are we expecting him to do for the family at this point that will make any positive difference?

NMERider - 2015/01/25 18:16:21 UTC

The late pilot is the well-loved and respected Trevor Scott...

By whom and for what? I've never seen him doing anything anywhere after anyone else has bought it trying to prevent the next one.

...and if anyone who is linked via Facebook wishes to pay his/her respects please do so:
http://www.facebook.com/trevor.scott.967



The accident...

Whatever it was...



...it wasn't an accident.

...is under investigation...

Queued up behind Steven Tinoson at Forbes a bit over four months ago so don't hold your breath.

...so for love of mankind, everyone please refrain from playing CSI Hang Glider!

For the love of mankind AND God. People trying to find out what happened, why, speculating, searching for ways to prevent reruns has been the single most corrosive element in the sport of hang gliding. Those hundreds of posts in the Zack Marzec threads made it absolute hell for people like Paul and Lauren Tjaden, Mark Frutiger, Davis Dead-On Straub, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, USHGA to settle on an invisible dust devil story wreaked such havoc in the Aerotow Industry that a standard aerotow weak link with a track record decades and hundreds of thousands of tows long has been near totally scrapped in favor of one over one and a half times more dangerous merely because a lot of misguided and confused people decided they'd be happy with it.

Shut the fuck up everybody and allow the experts to do their job and give us the kind of high quality report that can only emerge from a speculation vacuum.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

Comet - 2015/01/25 22:29:23 UTC

And I'd like to add, please refrain from saying "another" pilot in the title - makes it appear to newbies and casual observers as if they are dropping left and right.

Right. We most assuredly don't wanna give the impression that people get their lives destroyed and ended on these things - 'specially to thems what might be seriously thinking about getting into the sport. Let's retitle the thread:

First hang gliding fatality anywhere in 23 years - freak accident, invisible dust devil suspected.

So now, close to two days since impact, here's what we know. There hasn't been one single word on the incident released by one single person in hang gliding. Everything we have is from the mainstream media. Wanna REALLY show contempt for a "fellow pilot" and his life that's definitely the ticket. Note the similarity to:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

And remember what a wonderful guy Zack Marzec was and how horribly broken up all of his friends were over his tragic untimely death in his freak accident. Quote me any of those motherfuckers - the Tjaden twins, Mark Frutiger, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, the Kitty Hawk Krew - so much as acknowledging his previous existence in anything beyond a post or two of show grief inside of the first week.

Compare/Contrast with the kind of responses we've seen when folk others GENUINELY gave rats' asses about - Bob Wills, Dan Racanelli, Mike Del Signore, Bill Priday, Kunio Yoshimura - buy farms. Course it also helps a lot when there's no Industry cover-up involved.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

Eric Beckman - 2015/01/26 05:25:38 UTC

Condolences to the family and all his friends.

Hope they figure out what happened...

Oh really? Name some hang gliding crashes in which "they" hadn't figured out what happened a couple seconds prior to impact.

...and that there is something useful to learn from this.

Yeah. I'm quite certain that Trevor invented a new way to slam into a mountain that nobody's hitherto even thought about.

Avolare - 2015/01/26 12:19:19 UTC

NMERider - 2015/01/25 18:16:21 UTC

The accident is under investigation so for love of mankind, everyone please refrain from playing CSI Hang Glider!

HA! I agree!

Yeah. Big fuckin' surprise.

Maybe you should apply the same restraint regarded airline accidents.

Bullshit. When an airliner goes down witnesses, survivors, police, news media, investigators release every scrap of information available as soon as it emerges and professionals will crunch what they have and SPECULATE on most likely scenarios. And that's EXACTLY what the goddam family members want to happen and are desperate to hear. And tell me just how often the results of this process turn out to be significantly off the mark and about all the additional suffering the goddam family members undergo as a consequence.

My sympathies to the family and friends.

My sympathies to the family. Fuck his glider friends. Where are they? Why aren't we hearing anything from any of them?

And here's an ironclad rule you can take to the bank... You're gonna get your BEST information within twenty-four hours of impact. That's when the people closest to the incident are in shock and...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

...most likely to blurt out the truth. The longer the delay the more what's being reported will have been spun. And - obviously, doing the math here - when you have NO information within the first twenty-four hours you can rest assured that anything that follows will be less or worse.

Here's my call...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/man-killed-in-hang-gliding-accident-at-mt-cole-near-ararat/story-fni0fit3-1227195625810?nk=9ab49beef929319b62132d4b8abda290
Man killed in hang gliding accident at Mt Cole near Ararat | Herald Sun

Angus Thompson - 2015/01/24

A MAN has been killed in a hang gliding accident in Victoria’s west this afternoon.

The victim came down over bushland near Mt Cole, northeast of Ararat, shortly after 1.30pm.
A group of people at the scene called emergency services to Ben Nevis Rd, Eversley, and the man was pronounced dead soon after.



Victoria Police confirmed that man died at the scene.
It is believed the hang glider launched from Mt Ben Nevis and died after plunging several metres into a tree in Mt Cole Park.
A State Emergency Service spokeswoman said two units capable of high-angle rescues were at the scene but hadn't yet been deployed.
The area is a popular place for hang gliders.

angus.thompson@news.com.au

He was slow and scratching and got hit by a thermal and tip stalled, spun around, and slammed in. BTDT, my first flight at Woodstock (first and last time from the old/original north launch) - 1988/07/02. Expected to die but left on a stretcher just one giant bruise.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/watch/victorian-man-killed-in-hang-gliding-accident/vi-AA8x4Hf
Victorian man killed in hang-gliding accident

Light winds, about ten meters. Anybody got anything better?

It's understood he was flying with a group of students from a local hang gliding school.

The local hang gliding school doesn't want the public to know that its ace instructor / bladewing jock can make a dumb mistake in student conditions and end up dead a couple seconds later? That's what's going on with this bullshit.

My SPECULATING, Jack and Davis Show Assholes, is a thousand times better than any of your NOT SPECULATING. And if you wanna hear some top notch not speculating then...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

...focus carefully on what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is saying.