A few. Over time. But I'm afraid Kinsley Sykes is the kind of brain dead asshole who typifies the diver driver population so it's still gonna take a lot of work and nonstop attacks.
(Got the power back yesterday. That'll make it a lot easier to stay on top of things.)
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/08/30 18:05:15 UTC
Shock loads are surprising. I was doing some testing on a packaging concept for a product I designed a few years ago. It's a rack-mount computer chassis, and I wanted to keep the peak load below 8G. When I began testing, I was astonished to discover that a simple thump on the tabletop was good for over 40G force.
We think of 10G acceleration as being an upper limit where most normal people black out and stop functioning, but in fact we're subjected to forces much greater than that every day in the ordinary course of life. We don't see that sort of force on a continuous basis though, so we don't notice it.
Your weak link can handle the moderate continuous pulling force, but give it a bit of slack followed by a push-out and it'll pop because of the peak shock load.
So what you're saying (if I'm following you correctly) is that if a four hundred pound weak link is subjected to a towline tension - continuous or shock - of:
- LESS than four hundred pounds, it'll hold; and
- MORE than four hundred pounds, it'll blow.
Are you SURE about this? Because God's Honest Truth is that...
One of the biggest bits that seems to be under appreciated is the bit that weaklinks break under shock loading.
They can take a hell of a lot more force if they're loaded slowly... which is exactly what happens in a lockout.
...the blow point VARIES by a HELL OF A LOT depending upon the nature of delivery.
According to God - and his Special Little Messenger - a four hundred pound weak link should blow at maybe three hundred if shock loaded and five if smoothly loaded.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Jim, as I am starting to play with Elektra Tow (ET) at Quest Air (the battery powered "scooter" tow system you and Adam got me jazzed up about up at Highland) I've watched this thread closely. We all can learn.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
I think we DEFINITELY oughta be going with God on this one.
USHPA towing recommendations already describe the kind of weak link that should be used.
The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination.
Yeah. The zero to two G kind. With recommendations like that how could the pilot possibly go wrong? (Unless he wants to tow with something other than a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot (- new or fuzzy.).)
We don't say exactly how to achieve that result, nor should we. We tell you what the recommended performance should be, and it's up to the pilot to determine how to get there.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Yeah, sure Mark. It's up to the pilot. And isn't that what USHGA is all about anyway? PILOT controlled aviation? It's not like we pilots are gonna let ourselves get pushed around by a bunch of shitheaded ultralight drivers.
Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC
Sorry about the delayed response...I'm on vacation with limited computer access.
No one seems to address the fact that with everyone using 130 lb Greenspot weak links, light pilots are capable of seeing significantly higher G loadings than heavy ones, and yet among the lighter crowd we aren't seeing the dead pilots Jim says we'll see with stronger weak links. In fact, I have yet to see a single account of an incident attributable to too strong a weak link (and I know of several incidents that could be attributed to too light a weak link).
Could be? How 'bout the Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett twofer - 2005/09/03. Yeah, there WERE definitely other things going on but there always are. Robin Strid wasn't killed ONLY because his "release" jammed.
Just so that my position is clear, I believe that the universal use of 1.5 G weak links makes a lot more sense than the universal use of 130 lb loop weak links.
Just refer to the test strength of the Greenspot. Jim was taught - à la Quest - that a single loop blows at 260 and a double at 520. And Ridgely - à la not Quest - figured that that translated to 520 and 1040 towline because on the end of a bridle was actually not the same as on the end of the towline.
Note that under Ridgely/Rooney assumptions Tad - one or two point - was flying 1.6 Gs, which is more than he was asking for, and Karen Carra - one or two point - was 2.6 - well into the regulation violation range no matter what you're flying.
Flyhg:
I believe that the 1.5 G thing is something Tad made up.
I got that from Dynamic Flight (Rohan's school), but it's also in the middle of the FAA's allowable range. (I know what FAR 91.309 says...I didn't mean to suggest the manufacturer's recommendation was legally binding...only that it exists.)
Tad initially used 1.4 because that's smack dab in the middle of the FAA's allowable range for sailplanes under the assumption that there was something special about 0.8. There isn't, it's too low. But 1.4 is actually a pretty good number.
Jim,
Jim Rooney:
Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.
Like I said, disagreement among professionals...
By professionals...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
...Jim only means the other assholes who are on the same page of fiction that he is.
But no disagreement between people who know what the hell they're talking about - professional or not be damned.
Jim Rooney:
He knows that you're changing the equation and because of this, you need to ask the tug pilot.
Why? Because the tug can see higher line tension with the stronger link? Isn't that the same weak link typically used by tandems? Isn't it the job of the tug's weak link to limit the tension the tug can see anyway? What is the tug pilot going to do differently armed with this knowledge?
Also...isn't it is not so much the magnitude of the tow force that endangers the tug (and glider) pilot but rather its direction? As a tug pilot, would you rather have 500 lbs pulling straight aft or 240 pulling straight up? Could not even a glider using a 130 lb Greenspot loop put the tug pilot in danger?
Jim Rooney:
Zack:
Except the tug weak link will almost assuredly break first.
No, actually it doesn't.
In
theory it does.
In practice, it's not so cut and dry.
Sometimes it goes, sometimes the tug's goes.
I will defer to your experience on this. The theory, for those that don't know, is that Dragonflys typically use at most four strands of 130 lb Greenspot as a weak link (correct me if I'm wrong) - the same as the glider pilot in the discussed scenario. However, the tug weak link sees more tension than someone towing one point ('pro tow') because the apex angle of the tug bridle is much greater than that of the glider's bridle. But regardless, the fact that there's a good chance that the tug weak link could break first is enough to be a problem to me.
C'mon, Zack, Ridgely and all these other clones now typically tow three strands on the Dragonfly bridle and four on the tandem. Hell, Lookout doesn't even have a weak link on the tandem AT ALL. Do you honestly believe that these professionals would violate the rules if it weren't perfectly safe for them to do so?
Jim Rooney:
Try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink.
Why would you want to? Shouldn't releases be protected by weak links anyway?
It's not really necessary - especially since the bent pin releases lock up at well under weak link load anyway.
Jim Rooney:
Just might be that we've thought of that eh?
Are you saying that straight pins were considered initially but discarded because you have to use weak links with them? Just wondering what the reason curved pins are used is.
It's because that's what Bobby happened to have had lying around within arm's reach when he slapped that crap together and all the adoring cult members followed in lockstep because none of them is capable of anything remotely resembling a thought process.
Regarding curved pin releases failing, have you seen this one from Bart?
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
Thanks for your time.
Marc,
Marc:
I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
A stronger weak link would have still broken, just maybe not as soon. But what if this same incident happened when you were 50 feet lower? Jim says you're stacking the deck in your favor using a lighter weak link, but I'd rather not have to rely on luck to save me. So why didn't you release?
Marc Fink - 2011/08/31 08:11:05 UTC
This all happened in a few seconds--in a lock out the line/bridle will likely be caught in your corner bracket further complicating things.
Oh really? Has that ever once been recorded actually happening in the course of a hang glider lockout? Or is that just some bullshit that people who can't think things through very well keep speculating will happen?
I was actually in the process of reaching for the release and just about to pull it when the weaklink blew.
Oh. "This all happened in a few seconds" and you were STILL "in the process of reaching for the release"? Let's say "a few" seconds is three. By three seconds you couldn't release, your weak link hadn't blown, and you were just about to go for a 250 foot plummet. Way to be the Pilot In Command of your aircraft, dude.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
So what fucking moronic place did you put the release such that you had to "reach for" it?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/
If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.
(What a loss to the towing community that would be.) But you don't seem to have any problem with your buddy Rooney, God's Special Little Messenger, telling all individual pilots...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
...what they can and can't use on their gliders.
Yeah, note the way the weak link ALWAYS keeps the glider from smashing in - just like it did for Marc.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
Millions. Until you're sick to death of arguing about it.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
But they're totally incompatible with God's Honest Truth so you're having NONE OF IT! Good on ya, Jim! You're making God very proud!
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.
Yeah, the Flight Park Mafia must be getting a bit behind with its brainwashing programs.
It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
NO!!! What assholes! When they OBVIOUSLY should only listen to that which supports YOUR *OPINION*.
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238
NZ accident who was the pilot?
Lauren Tjaden - 2006/02/21 20:37:39 UTC
I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition.
George Whitehill - 1981/05
Just doing a hang check is not enough. Don't get me wrong, a hang check is a very important step that should be done prior to every launch. A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.
The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a SECOND check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!
If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done EVERY TIME and this is made a HABIT, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice MUST be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.
In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious.
Nobody's talking about 130lb weaklinks? (oh please)
Many reasons.
Couple of 'em for ya... they're manufactured, cheap and identifiable.
Yeah Jim, they're MANUFACTURED. By the Cortland Line Company - specifically for the purpose of serving as the ideal weak link for all solo hang gliders with flying weight from 165 to 360 pounds. One or two point bridles.
And they're CHEAP! Only about 0.03 percent of the cost of the faired downtube you need to replace after one blows as you're coming off the cart!
And identifiable!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
From hundreds of yards away!
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please.
You mean the plane that wouldn't exist unless I paid for it? The plane I'm paying to get me and my glider to where I wanna go? That plane?
Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins...
Yeah, motherfucker? But you don't have any problem whatsoever dictating your shoddy safety margins for MY PLANE?
I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch.
That's odd.
The Press - 2006/03/15
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
'Cause you don't seem to have any problem whatsoever diving your passenger into the powerlines so you can have a chance at saving your own incompetent, useless, cowardly goddam ass.
So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you.
But if it's STANDARD gear...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
...everything's fine.
(Note to non hang gliding reader:
In aerotowing "standard" means whatever crap the Flight Park Mafia forces the pilot to use. It should not be confused with equipment which adheres to anything anywhere close to standards.)
Love it or leave it. I don't care.
Yeah, I remember the kinds of stupid Nazis that were saying that forty years ago. You'd have fit right in.
So please, find me something... that you didn't make...
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/18 20:12:54 UTC
I love innovation.
Yeah Jim, you LOVE innovation. Just not anything an actual person can come up with...
...that I can go out and buy from a store...
Just something that comes from a fishing line company.
Yeah Jim, that's a really good specification for a piece of aviation equipment - something you can pick up at your friendly neighborhood hardware store.
...that's rated and quality controlled...
So that you can cut a length of 130, tie a Fisherman's Knot to form a loop, install the loop onto a bridle with the knot centered in a Double Lark's Head so it's "hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation", assume that it blows at 260 pounds ("about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider"), and tell everyone and his dog that it puts him at 1.0 Gs - the RECOMMENDED strength for a hang glider weak link.
Or, maybe, get something that comes from the bent pin release store - Flight Park Mafia standard equipment.
...that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model...
When 130 pound Greenspot has such a sterling track record for the one size fits all mission.
...and *maybe* we can talk.
Now obviously the loop of 130 blows at the ideal point halfway between a Falcon 3 145 minimum (165) and a T2 maximum (360) - 262.5 pounds flying weight. The TYPICAL glider. So the G rating - before you throw in the issue of one or two point bridle - has got an acceptable deviation of plus or minus 37 percent.
But that's OK 'cause the Greenspot is manufactured, rated, and quality controlled and thus you know the EXACT POINT at which it's gonna blow - or you would if you had ever actually TESTED it. But 260 pounds is a pretty good bet because you've got the knot hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
And you've checked to make sure that everyone's using "standard" bridles - material and diameter - right? 'Cause on Dacron I've found 130 Greenspot to blow from 115 on 5/64 to 215 on 1/4.
Asshole.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)
Yeah, that's because hang gliding takes all the people too stupid to do anything else and trains them to fly ultralights up and down all day long. The problem is that they all have egos in inverse proportion to their cranial capacities and think that this ability automatically makes them all qualified engineers and gives them unlimited authority and powers as regulators.
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
So you were LYING to support the fiction you want people to believe.
EXACTLY the way you were lying here:
I don't know if that's the one he got locked up for, but I know the one he got locked up for was not his last.
I believe the other one(s) was younger.
I didn't have the stomach to delve into further detail.
He has been banned from every flying site he's ever set foot at and some he hasn't.
So why should ANYONE ever believe ANYTHING you EVER say?
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
Nobody swims in this river without using our Great White Shark repellent. We've been running this operation for twenty years, we've had a hundred thousand swimmers, and we've never had a Great White Shark attack. (Helluva lot of crocodile attacks however. The shark repellent seems to attract the Salties in droves.)
"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be.
It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
May you rot in Hell for six eternities. And then may you rot for twelve eternities in the Hell to which the regular Hell sends all the real assholes.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.
http://ozreport.com/9.011
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/13
Tom Lanning had four launches, and two broken weaklinks and a broken base tube. He made it just outside the start circle.
Shitty competition pilot.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death
Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
Shitty flight park operator with shitty student.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Shitty excuse for a human being.
But if your GODDAM FUCKING GREENSPOT hadn't let go she wouldn't have smashed into the Earth at all. She'd have gotten up and learned to fly up to your sterling standards of flying performance.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
And get to give it another couple of shots that day...
The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured.
...instead of being hospitalized, but not seriously injured. But, who knows? She probably would've locked out, had her bent pin release jam when she finished reaching for it, and piled in harder.
Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You mean against your extensive database of hard scientific evidence? Like:
I've seen too many people walk the "strong link" road only to find out the reality of things.
?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
But WE'RE the one's who actually EXPERIENCE the tows, stalls, and crashes.
And WE'RE the ones who PAY for EVERY tow - and every crash.
From the beginning of my hang gliding career a couple of years prior to practical aerotowing I DREAMED of the potential aerotowing could bring to the sport. Never in my worst nightmares did I foresee how much damage a couple dozen douchebag Dragonfly jockeys would do to destroy that dream.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
Whatever it is it's WAY too fucking many.
You think we don't talk?
Not for a nanosecond. But all talk and no brain doesn't necessarily produce positive results.
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.
There it is, Zack. It's all about their OPINION. Great smoking gun moment.
Tad Eareckson
2011/04/20 18:54:37 UTC
Hang gliding has gotta stop being opinion based aviation.
2011/06/19 22:36:56 UTC
Oh good. You're gonna make up your OPINION based upon other people's OPINIONS. Glad we don't have a bunch of boring engineering standards to sort through.
2011/07/18 19:07:51 UTC
Some more good news is that this has zilch to do with the points of views of anybody but Sir Isaac Newton. Hang gliding is the only branch of aviation that's opinion based. As soon as we start doing it by the numbers - the way everyone else does - we're gonna start seeing a lot less death and destruction and getting a lot more airtime and having a lot more fun.
2011/08/19 14:45:06 UTC
Depends heavily upon whom you're talking to in this science free, opinion based sport.
He have doesn't have a freakin' clue just how badly he just shot himself and his fellow dickheads in the foot.
Ok, I'm tired of this.
I would be too right now after hearing from millions of people millions of times that I didn't know what I was talking about.
I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince.
I think he's got all the people with IQs of sixty and up. It's the other 99 percent that's gonna be a tough sell.
Again, I don't care to argue this stuff.
I wouldn't either if I were a total moron.
I'll answer actual questions...
Not the ones that reveal you to be the total fraud you are.
...if you're keen to actually hear the answers...
THE answers? That's just a wee bit presumptuous, don't ya think?
...but arguing with me? Really? Have fun with that.
Yeah. When everything's opinion based anyway, just how far are you expecting to get?
Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new.
I'm still waiting to hear Ridgely's "thinking" on using the same loop of 130 pound Greenspot (260 pound direct load - according to the late Chad Elchin) as a lockout protector for 200 and 350 pound gliders.
Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.
Yeah. You've heard it all a million times before.
Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Yeah. MAJOR damage on this one. We can make sure that the crap Jim's been spouting will haunt him for the rest of his hopefully short and tragic life.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Yeah douchebag. It's SO OBVIOUS that Jim knows what he's talking about and Zack is clueless.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
And if you want to buy a car with seatbelts, feel free to get it from the factory Ralph Nader built.
Zack C - 2011/08/31 17:38:50 UTC
Marc,
Marc:
I was actually in the process of reaching for the release...
To me, that is the problem. Not only does it take time to reach for a release, you can't fight a lockout with one hand. I stack the deck in my favor by refusing to use a release I have to reach for.
Now just how sporting is that? Next thing we know you'll be wanting to eliminate spot landings from the rating requirements.
And besides...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
If you'd just get off of all this 1.5 G crap you'd have an instant hands free release.
Why don't you ask Marc why he didn't just pitch up a little to actuate his instant hands free release and just fly away? This one seems like a no brainer. Right up Marc's alley.
Marc:
If procedures were amended to "insist" on stronger weaklinks I would simply stop towing.
No one here is advocating that.
But at least one person who's had his microphone cut is. If Marc:
- simply stopped towing that would tend to make the flight parks less odious places.
- decides to fly anyway and combines a mass appropriate weak link with his bent pin release the chances of him getting killed are a lot better.
- gets to use 130 pound Greenspot then the Flight Park Mafia will reward him for his prioritization of the safety issue by repeatedly relaunching him in front of me while the soaring window dissipates. And I'll be subsidizing his - and their - incompetence with my lift ticket.
I'm advocating the opposite - that we don't insist on anything, other than perhaps staying within USHPA's SOPs (which allow up to 2 Gs).
We NEED a minimum, Zack. They've got one for sailplanes - 0.8 G. That's dangerously low - even for them - but at least they've got SOMETHING.
We need a minimum to kill this 130 pound Greenspot bullshit you force people up on and replace it with something safe, and demonstrate irrefutably that Jim and all of his asshole colleagues are full of shit with their predictions of all the death and destruction that will follow.
Once people get a taste of being able to blast through heavy turbulence without having their hearts in their throats worrying about the Greenspot blowing they will NEVER allow themselves to be pushed back.
Jim,
Jim Rooney:
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
Surely since you guys have arrived at the 130 lb loop as the ultimate weak link you must have tried stronger links before and decided against them because of all the carnage that resulted. Otherwise, saying 130 lb is best is just as much 'theory' as saying something stronger is.
But regardless, when I learned to fly at Lookout, they suggested two loops of 130 for heavier pilots. (They also allow you to tow with other 'non-standard gear'.)
Like, in the non hang gliding sense of the word "standard", Lookout and bent pin releases.
And not everyone tows at flight parks. At our local club, I use a 1.3 G weak link and the tug uses a ~600 lb one. I'm quite happy with that arrangement.
Jim Rooney:
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
How can you reconcile the above two quotes? Have you ever visited someone put in a hospital because they used too strong a weak link?
Did you visit John Simon in the hospital after you Ridgely assholes got him so hardwired about standup spot landings that he flew into a taxiway sign and broke both arms?
Jim Rooney:
"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
A sudden loss of line tension will result in an increase of the glider's angle of attack, which may cause a stall. Near the ground this could be fatal. Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore were killed this way. Yes, there were other factors in that incident (there usually are), but it doesn't change the fact that it would never have happened if the weak link had held.
Bill and Mike were totally screwed by the time the weak link blew. The only two things that might have done them any good at that point would have been a parachute or a tug with a lot more power than the one they had could've delivered. Jeremiah Thompson / Arlan Birkett is a MUCH better example.
I know someone who broke a wrist after a weak link broke upon leaving the cart. He had to maneuver to avoid landing on the cart and was thus unable to set up for a proper landing. He stayed prone and one side of the base tube hit first with his hands still on it. Blame it on the pilot, but what percentage of the flying population would have fared better?
Date, name, flying weight, site?
Jim Rooney:
So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
The Cortland stuff is available in different breaking strengths, including 200 lbs.
Also, Stuart Caruk sells line calibrated to various strengths:
http://www.towmeup.com/weaklink.html
You may have to order it, but I suspect most flight parks order their Cortland anyway.
Jim Rooney:
I'll answer actual questions if you're keen to actually hear the answers, but arguing with me?
My questions weren't 'actual'?
No, just impossible to answer without sounding like a total douchebag.
Jim Rooney:
Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
I'm not trying to sway you...I'm giving you the opportunity to sway me.
Good one.
Jim Rooney:
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.
I once shared your position and am open to reverting back to it, but it's going to take a lot more than asserting it's correct because 'we've already thought about that'.
Joe Faust - 2011/08/31 18:07:45 UTC
Been following the thread and don't recall if the following question has been faced:
Has the tow line torque been studied and measured for hang glider towing operations? The line untensed as base; then upon tensing, the line develops some torque; without swivel the torque is there.
What significance would line torque be at release-- intentional or not, at weak link break? Bille made a quick comment to one of mine in the thread surrounding the occasion of wrap of weak link.
Listening. I do not have answers or links on this question.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC
Zach,
I'm not trying to sway you...
See, that's the thing here... you're trying to sway... you believe this is a discussion where one side "sways" the other. Argument isn't the right word as it's a bit harsh cuz you're being quite civil (thank you).
Yeah, we'll need to work on that problem a bit.
Actually, after a couple more exchanges with God's Special Little Messenger, you probably won't need any help from me.
It's just not the case...
This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
Betchya didn't see THAT coming.
You're not the one making the decisions here.
Donnell Hewett - 1982/09
Skyting is designed to give the pilot more control over his flight than any other member of the flight crew.
See if you can convince a tug pilot to tow you, with whatever gear you like, then you're sweet.
But we're the ones you need to convince, not the other way around.
So if anyone's trying to "sway" anyone, you need to convince me.
And like I said, I'm over it.
We need to take back control of this sport and make these stupid arrogant assholes understand that a tug driver is just another crappy piece of tow equipment. Their sole reason for being is to serve US in our objective of getting to altitude. That's the job WE'RE paying THEM to do. They're NOT the Pilots In Command of these flights any more than a goddam truck tow driver is the Pilot In Command of any of THOSE operations.
And in REAL aviation the plane WITH the engine - the one that has the better and safer options - is the one that defers to the one WITHOUT the engine. And I can name you a lot more tugs that have fucked over hang gliders that you can name gliders that have fucked over tugs. In fact, you can't name me ANY tugs that have been fucked over by hang gliders.
They don't tell US what weak links we can use. We tell them what weak link we're gonna use and they better stay the hell over it or we'll have their tickets pulled - and/or sue their goddam asses.
Joe,
I have no idea. NASA's team was busy, so we went with what we had. Any "engineering" that's gone into all this may be "crude", but it's sure been "practical". It works.
Except when it DOESN'T. Then the focus is all on cover-up.
The onus is on you to show me a better way.
And when you do...
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
...you can go fuck yourself anyway. 'Cause your straight pin release is "untested" and "unproven".
But bear in mind... you need to show a higher bar.
Fuck you.
So much of these discussions boil down to pointing out flaws in what we do now, not showing better ways.
And fuck whatever bitch failed to drown you at birth.
No system is perfect, so pointing out flaws is easy and can always be accomplished.
Coming up with something better, well, that's a hard nut to crack.
Many have tried, and I'll tell ya straight from the start, it's the little things you don't think about that get ya, not the obvious ones.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
Please also realize when you "try", you're experimenting with your life.
And when we don't try...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
...we risk dying about fifteen different time proven stupid ways every time we go up.
Oh how often the gravity of that escapes people.
Oh how PROFOUND. Dickhead.
Joe Faust - 2011/08/31 22:44:12 UTC
Thanks for your time and attention on the questions, Jim. Appreciated.
I will do some due diligence to see if anyone has faced the questions.
OF COURSE THEY HAVEN'T, JOE! Don't you think that if somebody had come up with something better everybody would be using it already? Don't you think that if it had been conclusively demonstrated on the ground AND in the air that bent pin releases weld themselves shut under load that everyone and his freakin' dog would've IMMEDIATELY gone with straight pins?
Maybe line torque in various towing scenes, line torque with connected mixed lines, etc. has been carefully studied; some of what I might find might bring on matter that could help set a higher bar. The wrap at weak-link break and the various release-recoil reports bother me; and I suspect line torque in mixed-line assemblies may be part of what might be in any design toward a higher bar for HG towing. I will bring items forward, if found; maybe with something ...you or others could also move toward a higher bar. The change of conditions of lines used (tow line, weak-link, bridle) over time and use and storage might affect immediate line torque and performance.
I suspect releasing and weak-link breaking experiments could be done to a significant extent without risking human life. I have a tall pecan tree in my rear yard and some water bags; perhaps shock and recoil of mixed lines could be done with these... to complement what others may have found.
Knowing the immediate weak link's remaining integrity and strength would be neat.
Smart weak-link system futurism, as earlier post in this thread noted, is of interest.
No-knot weak links interests me; I'd like to see the systems not have to deal with the knot variations and the shock history at the knot.
Dialing a weak-link's precise G rating for the immediate tow attracts my attention.
Specifying the lines used in a set of experiments would be baseline, as each line will have its line-torque character.
Thanks Jim, for bringing up the term "
higher bar" to this old high jumper.
Reminds me of the tens of thousands of times I aimed to clear higher bars. And this just reminded me of Quicksilver HG designer Bob Lovejoy ; we high jumped against one another in high school and then later I and my wife flew his first Quicksilver.
Lift,
Joe
Yeah, let's make seat belts with wider, thicker, stronger webbing so when we send kids onto the highway with absolute shit for steering, braking and transmission systems they'll be less likely to be killed when they plow into trees and stall out on railroad tracks.
http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.
Ake Larsson - 2010/02/13 16:31:31 UTC
In the my part of the world (flatland Sweden) where you have to tow to get some airtime no one uses weaklinks, I belive it is the same in Finland. Even most of the beginner training is done on tow in Sweden and whitout a weaklink. Play the %, a weaklink might save you one serious accident in a hundred years but will give you a lot of smaller accidents when it breakes.
That's EXACTLY how important weak links are. Make them all 1.5 and then start worrying about REAL issues.
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/01 00:46:07 UTC
No worries Joe.
Seeking a better solution is not a bad idea. I'm not sure many people out there fully appreciate what a task it truly is... but that's not to say that everyone doesn't.
The engineering task is ten year old kid stuff - use a straight pin instead of a bent one, put the lever where your hand is, use a weak link to protect the glider instead of preventing lockouts... The task is getting you fucking assholes to get your stupid shoddy shit out of the air and start using sane equipment and procedures.
I'm not kidding when I point out that once you start testing, you are indeed testing with your life on the line. Before you're testing however, there's a lot less at stake.
And never EVER test anything on the ground. Just follow Flight Park Mafia protocol - slap together whatever you feel like, declare it the pinnacle of human engineering, stamp out ten thousand copies, throw it in the air with anyone stupid enough to buy, and don't tell anyone when it starts failing left and right.
So have at it... just remember that the line between theory and practice is a monumental one.
Yeah. Fuck theory. We don't need no steenking THEORY.
Good luck.
Yeah Jim.
Zack C - 2011/08/31 02:45:17 UTC
But what if this same incident happened when you were fifty feet lower? Jim says you're stacking the deck in your favor using a lighter weak link, but I'd rather not have to rely on luck to save me.
Luck is what Flight Park Mafia aviation is all about.