launching

[<BS>]

Seems obvious that he was using a wuffo crew he'd carefully trained to not interfere with the wing.

Not to me. I'm not into pushing my high wind self launching abilities but know others are. I can easily see them as both experienced pilots, one asking the other to help only if needed. In fact that's common practice of new pilots wanting balancing practice (in lighter winds of course), but having the security of someone there.
Communication is the key. I'd also be upset if an assistant didn't help when needed or asked. In the first video the conditions looked fairly mild but some adjustments were needed to balance the wing. The pilot should have looked at both assistants and the wing to determine if they were holding equal pressure or if adjustments were necessary. He wasn't looking and listening to what they were doing and saying and abruptly called "showtime" himself. You can blame the assistants for not being more aggressive at controlling the wing and conveying that it wasn't balanced, but who yells clear before checking and acknowledging that it is so? That pilot was either rushed probably due to intimidation or completely in over his head. Probably a combination of the two.

[<BS>]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doe_sNB1wbg

http://www.flyfunston.org/primer.php

When wind speed increases at the Fort, it will be from the NW 90% of the time. As the wind becomes more cross, the lift component decreases. For example, wind arriving at 45 degrees to the cliff produces about 68% of the lift as the same straight-in wind. This means that it takes a little more than 26 mph for that crosswind to produce the same lift as an 18 mph straight-in wind. Also, the lift band is narrower as the wind becomes more cross.

Most blown launches at the Fort happen in NW conditions. In nearly every case it is because the pilot tries to launch wings-level, pointed straight out. This is strange because the average pilot, when he goes to the mountains will not launch if it is cross because he can't hold the glider level and pointing down the fall line. Because the pilot isn't looking down a slope when he is at Funston, he thinks the rules of aerodynamics somehow don't apply. The glider doesn't care a whit what the terrain looks like. It only recognizes one element: relative airflow. If you look at the launch as if you were the glider, it will help you overcome the mistakes of trying to make the glider do what it is not designed to do.

Before we continue, let's define relative airflow. Air flowing over the glider when it is on the ground is absolute airflow. Whenever the glider is in motion, air moves over the wing, and the glider "sees" it the same as if there were a wind blowing. Thus, the relative flow is the combined effect of the actual wind and the flow caused by the movement of the glider. For example, suppose there is a 5 mph wind directly from your right and you are running with the glider straight ahead at 5 mph. The combined effect of the "wind" produced from your running and the actual wind 90 degrees on your right is equivalent to a wind from 45 degrees on your right at about 6 mph. The importance of relative airflow is that your glider will always produce forces to keep the keel line pointed into the relative airflow. There are only two circumstances when relative and absolute airflow are the same: when the glider is perfectly parallel to the wind or when there is zero wind, rare conditions indeed. You see why hang glider training is best in no-wind or light, straight-in wind conditions. Since 99.8% of normal flying is outside those rarre conditions, pilots who do not understand relative airflow will make bad mistakes.

Now we seek to understand how relative airflow makes the glider react according to specific design features. If the glider is angled to the wind, sweep induces forces that will yaw the keel into the relative wind: the upwind wing sees more wind than the downwind wing. This produces drag, which imparts a yawing force on the glider (see Fig. 1), restoring it into the relative airflow.



This restoring force is strong - you may, with difficulty, be able to counter it with your feet on the ground and the counter-twisting force you are able to apply to the down tubes. But as soon as you begin to move, your feet have less friction with the ground, and you will be increasingly unable to counter the yawing force of the drag. The glider will yaw into the relative wind. That yaw movement now presents another problem. In the case of the NW wind, the glider will yaw to the right. The left wing is now moving faster than the right. The faster wing produces more lift, which induces a right bank. Yet another unwelcome component adds misery to this deteriorating state of affairs: the left wing is closer to or over the cliff edge, encountering lift, which further banks the glider and accelerates the turn. The glider is in total control now; the pilot is merely an unhappy rider. Broken keels, leading edges and down tubes are the usual casualties. Except for his ego, the pilot is rarely seriously injured. (Note: The only time relative wind applies is when the glider is not airborne or when it encounters shear or gradient wind conditions.)

There is another way to counter and control the natural forces generated on the glider for those who insist on going off wings-level: get wire "help." If you have three people, one on the nose and one on each wing, they can control the glider because they have their feet on the ground and they are out far enough from the CG to have sufficient leverage to muscle the forces. This "solution" to the problem is wrong on at least four counts. 1) The pilot is no longer in control of the glider: his wiremen are. It is really they who perform the launch, running with the glider and literally throwing it off the cliff. 2) The wiremen are forcing the glider against what it is designed to do. 3) The pilot is unaware of what forces are upon his glider. 4) Each time the pilot uses this incorrect procedure, it reinforces his belief that the "method" is in fact correct and that one cannot be safe without wire assistance.

Why not look at the aerodynamics and design of the glider and let it do what it was engineered to do? If you let the glider fly, you don't have to struggle to counter aerodynamic forces. Take the glider out to launch and let it "find" its own keel line in the relative air flow. When the yaw is correct, you will note that the left wing is closer to lift, so it wants to roll. Balance that, too, with a slight left bank. The function of wire help in this case is merely to help you get the glider balanced.

Now, as you stand there, you note that there is no struggle! All forces on the glider are balanced, and you are not using muscle and sinew to try to counter natural forces. You may now hold the glider lightly, so that as you begin your run the glider will yaw and roll naturally to change in relative air-flow caused by the glider movement.

Before you begin your run, look at the wing. The horizon is no longer your reference. That horizon stuff is for those who will forever be stuck in a wings-level mindset. You are now free to experience a new dimension in your flying experience and skills. By opening the window of your flying abilities, you have opened many more available days to your flying time. Done correctly, a strong NW wind launch is as easy as a moderate, straight-in one. The glider does not know the wind is crossed; only the pilot knows it. Learn to think as if you are the glider.

The bonus to learning crosswind technique is that it is valid everywhere. When others are kicking dust in frustration at a strong crosswind at launch, you can go out unassisted and roar into the sky.

[Tad Eareckson]

I can easily see them as both experienced pilots...

Looking at it with the sound muted - as I mostly have been - probably not. Listening to the chatter under the wing - good possibility. Still think the left wing is a wuffo.

...one asking the other to help only if needed.

What? The right wing asking the pilot to help only if needed?

In fact that's common practice of new pilots wanting balancing practice...

Balancing practice. Reminds me of beating one's head against the wall practice.

Communication is the key.

The more common sense accumulated on the pad the less key the communication.

The pilot should have looked at both assistants and the wing to determine if they were holding equal pressure or if adjustments were necessary.

It was a total train wreck. If the object of the exercise was to slam the glider back into the slope as quickly and forcefully as possible it would've been tough for any three individuals to have done a better job.

He wasn't looking and listening to what they were doing and saying and abruptly called "showtime" himself.

BTDT. Not quite as stupidly and in a much more benign environment - sand and bushes.

You can blame the assistants...

I don't blame anyone for anything on this one. It was a total fuckup. Humans are human. I blame people for deliberate and/or repeated stupid stuff.

That pilot was either rushed probably due to intimidation...

Or...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32314
Blown "launch"

JJ Coté - 2015/01/11 20:35:21 UTC

Get a topless, stand still, say clear, and push out until the gentle breezes waft you away, that's what I was always taught...

...just anticipating being wafted away by the gentle breezes.

...or completely in over his head.

Nah. He knew he'd screwed the pooch and why the instant it was too late to do anything about it. Catch him in a net and get him back on launch two minutes later he's gonna launch textbook. The environment is harsh but a good fifteen year old first lesson dune student can establish the necessary skill.

[<BS>]

Seems obvious that he was using a wuffo crew he'd carefully trained to not interfere with the wing.

Not to me. I'm not into pushing my high wind self launching abilities but know others are. I can easily see them as both experienced pilots, one asking the other to help only if needed. In fact that's common practice of new pilots wanting balancing practice (in lighter winds of course), but having the security of someone there.

I thought you were referring to the Funston video. This comment was aimed at that.

[Tad Eareckson]

Got it. Wish it were a fraction as common a practice of new - and old - pilots to want practice (in lighter - and heavier - winds of course) verifying that they're connected to their gliders just prior to launch.

Think I just figured out something about Chris. Does the precise opposite of what it says in his owner's manual with the spreader for the same reason he eschews as much wire assistance as possible. Really into using muscle for roll control. Makes him a much stronger and better pilot and person.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32314
Blown "launch"

michael170 - 2015/01/12 06:42:06 UTC

Short, like up to my shoulder.

Four foot two.

Your question was "Does anybody here think that the right wire person could have done something to help the guy out once he had committed to go?"

Yes.

A pilot is ready to go when the glider is up, balanced, and clear. Or do you believe that the pilot is ready when the wire help is still hanging on?

If I need them hanging on so as I can get a good launch, yes.

"We" is anyone who questions you being anything other than a troll when you take such obvious pleasure in posting anyone else's mistakes on here.

I didn't know that you had been authorized to speak for anyone who questions my being anything other than a troll when I take such obvious pleasure in posting anyone else's mistakes on here. Thanks for clearing that up, Paul.

What's your experience?

Hang gliding is a magnet that attracts idiots.

Are you faultless?

Far from it. That's why I always assume that I am not hooked in rather than assuming that I am.

Bullshit. Didn't you just hear Paul say:

A pilot is ready to go when the glider is up, balanced, and clear.

End of story.

Do you actually fly?

Yes.

Or are you just content with being the Tad conduit?

Fabrication of your delusion. Big surprise.

Come on, don't be shy. You're always so quick to point out the faults of others, let's hear something about you that is relevant to YOUR hang gliding experiences.

Have I been shy?

Or don't you have any?

None that I care to share with "we".

Paul Hurless - 2015/01/12 07:03:20 UTC

Four foot two.

You can add at least a foot to that.

Yes.

Then let's hear your miracle method for what the wire help could have done in that situation after releasing the side wire.

Not interested in any miracle methods for what the wire help could have done in that situation after releasing the sidewire. Same way I'm not interested in any miracle methods for what Zack Marzec could've used after his Rooney Link increased the safety of the towing operation.

If I need them hanging on so as I can get a good launch, yes.

You launch with people still hanging on to your glider? That's unbelievable.

Read what you quoted, Paul.

I didn't know that you had been authorized to speak for anyone who questions my being anything other than a troll when I take such obvious pleasure in posting anyone else's mistakes on here. Thanks for clearing that up, Paul.

I can confidently state that I am not the only one who thinks of you as being a troll. Others have also mentioned it as I am sure you are aware.

I can also confidently state that the majority of Jack Show posters think that a towline transmits pressure from a tug to a glider.

Hang gliding is a magnet that attracts idiots.

Yep, here you are. And avoiding a real answer as usual.

An answer to that question can't get any more real and/or better than that.

Far from it. That's why I always assume that I am not hooked in rather than assuming that I am.

If you always assume that you aren't, how do you fly?

Right. The laws of physics stop working when they know the pilot has launched under the assumption that he's not hooked in. But, fortunately, they work just fine when people who assume they are hooked in run off the ramp.

Wouldn't a positive hook-in check remove that assumption?

For a total idiot, yes. Me... I like to launch scared. I tend to fuck things up a lot more when I'm confident everything's just fine. I land the same way too. That way...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...I can keep the glider pointed upwind and under control whether or not the air is strong.

Yes.

Where? When?

None of you're fuckin' business. The more some asshole cares about what's in my logbook the less likely he is to hear anything about it.

Fabrication of your delusion. Big surprise.

No delusions here, just observation.

As crappy as your observations about Rooney Links.

Have I been shy?

Completely when it comes to you having any actual experience.

Go fuck yourself, Paul. Nobody's interrogating you about your actual experience. If that's what your interested in then talk to Jon Orders, Zack Marzec, Mark Knight, Adam Parer, Joe Julik.

None that I care to share with "we".

And we're back to that.

When did we leave it?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32314
Blown "launch"

AndRand - 2015/01/12 10:14:05 UTC

It looked like he thought the glider will just fly in this wind.

Yes.

Lesson is: no matter what wind or cliff - nose leveled and run.

Wings... Whatever.

Jason Boehm - 2015/01/12 16:29:37 UTC

and yes M170 is a troll, count me as a part of "we"

With pleasure, Jason. I'll be sure to credit both you assholes as being on board with anything and everything the other says.

Avolare - 2015/01/12 17:09:19 UTC
North Carolina

Ignore is a wonderful tool. I wish it worked for shout outs too. M170 has been ignored for a while now.

Right along with...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Avolare - 2010/09/03 19:37:11 UTC

The weak link should break with a lockout.

...the rest of the real world.

Tormod Helgesen - 2015/01/12 18:16:45 UTC

I'm also "we"

Yeah, Tormod, who'da thunk.

Mike Badley - 2015/01/12 19:30:19 UTC

Not that I am advocating blown launches, but there is a lot to be learned from having one happen to you. The invincibility factor goes immediately to ZERO and you approach the rest of your flying much more conservatively. Glad to know the pilot was unhurt - live and learn!

Ever wonder why that virtually never works with unhooked launches? How many people have you heard of who've survived unhooked launches or dropped passengers to their deaths who start doing and advocating hook-in checks?

The wire crew are not there to LAUNCH you - unless that is what you set up with them prior to going to the edge. That can be very useful (on some difficult launches) when a trained crew keeps full control of the glider and communicates with each other while launching - they will also clearly let the pilot KNOW that they are releasing him with a short countdown AFTER he has given them the READY TO LAUNCH feedback.

So how can it hurt if you have a competent wire crew there to launch you whether you set them up to do it or not? What are they gonna do differently that's likely to work to your detriment? How would a crew with that mindset made things any worse for Dave Seib, Grant Bond, or this guy?

Wiredrew that take matters in their own hand - USUALLY end up making things worse.

Yeah? Where's your data? Show us a video or quote an incident report.

Once a pilot clears you - let go and do NOT go yelling something like STOP! STOP! or something else clearly distracting. It's too late at that point.

I said a COMPETENT crew.

The launching momentum of glider/pilot/wind will overpower your ability to stop anything and your negative input will only slow the glider down, further adding to stall initiation.

- Duh.
- The side of the mountain will do a pretty good job of slowing you down as well.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.flytandem.com/accident/index.htm

2-6-15 9:30AM. Local advanced HG pilot at the 80' training hill wanting to check out some equipment trips during a fast running launch attempt. Some shoulder injuries. As more info comes in this will be updated.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32322
Bent a downtube on my first day in 2015 :^(

Rodger Hoyt - 2015/01/12 08:46:23 UTC

The training hill is paradoxically the most demanding place to fly. Close proximity to the ground the entire flight. Precise handling required. Launch and landing all within seconds and no time to plan. I can't believe students survive it.

Safest place to warm up? A high mountain with lots of time to flail around the sky and get the feel of things before having to set up an approach.

[Steve Davy]

I would bet money that he didn't have wheels on his control tube.

As more info comes in this will be updated.

And that there will not be any more info or an update on this one.