http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1703
Lift and Tug Failure Near Death Experience
Bob Kuczewski - 2015/02/04 06:59:17 UTC
Warren Narron - 2015/02/03 23:03:03 UTC
Actually, I think he missed the point and turned it into something else, just as you have done.
I disagree. I think Airnut's main point was about mental discipline and that applies to any methodology a pilot uses to confirm their hook-in status before launch.
- So how come AirNut isn't bothering to clarify what his main point was?
- AirNut's totally full o' shit. Who gives a flying fuck what his main points on anything are? Self appointed expert on a procedure he's never once done at any point in his entire sub-useless existence.
- AirNut uses a capital N and your grammar needs work.
If there is some reason this can't be done safely, then how is it safe to launch at all?
"Lift and tug" as a hook in check assumes that the pilot is able to allow the glider to rise to the point of tensioning the harness so that the tension can be felt by the pilot
BEFORE making an irreversible commitment to launch. That assumption is implicit because it wouldn't do any good to do a hook in check after it's too late to abort the launch.
Sure it does. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney did a hook-in check after it was too late to abort the launch and ended up in the hospital for a couple of months. With just a little more luck the motherfucker would've been instantly and permanently out of the sport and gene pool.
Also implicit is that the glider must be allowed to put enough tension on the harness to actually be felt as a "tug" (hence the name "lift and tug").
Yes, Bob. That IS why it's called "lift and tug". Thank you so much for clarifying that.
There are several problems with this technique in high wind launch conditions.
Fuck you. In high wind conditions we have CREW. Having crew in high wind conditions on launch is a lot more important than having a helmet on in no wind conditions in the setup area - which, thanks to your tireless pursuit of safety regulation, is now MANDATORY for EVERYONE.
First of all, the "tug" from the hang strap will come from the glider's trim point which is typically set at a relatively slow flying speed and a relatively high angle of attack.
And, of course, since the glider's trim is typically set at a relatively slow flying speed and a relatively high angle of attack the pilot is fucked. Neither he nor his crew has any ability to trim the nose down to anything faster than trim. That can only happen after he's fully airborne.
In a high wind launch situation, the pilot will typically be holding the downtubes at a point well forward of the trim point which puts all of the downward force on the glider at that same forward point.
Bullshit. Here's Chris Valley at Funston launching unassisted in thirty.
13-10921
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3911/14720992956_ed594708b3_o.png
His goddam suspension is tight as a banjo string, he's doing just fine, and thirty is about as strong as anyone ever launches in.
The location of that forward point will determine the angle of attack of the wing in the wind (absent any torque also applied by the pilot...
Totally unimaginable that a PILOT would apply TORQUE to adjust his PITCH ATTITUDE in a LAUNCH situation.
...- see "Third..." below).
Why? We haven't been buried in enough of your crap already at this point?
The moment the pilot transfers a single ounce...
...or 0.0002 percent of a three hundred pound flying weight...
...of downward force anywhere aft of that grip point that will increase the glider's angle of attack by some amount.
Downward force anywhere aft of the GRIP POINT? We don't control gliders by applying forces relative to GRIP POINTS. We do it by torqueing the fucking control bar.
So by transferring enough weight to the hang loops to lift part of the harness and then get a perceptible "tug" the pilot will increase the angle of attack of the wing by some amount.
Bullshit, motherfucker. As long as the wing is at enough of a positive angle of attack to be generating LIFT it will LIFT. And the only reason a nose ever gets pulled down as far as neutral is to wait out a dangerously high surge.
Depending on the circumstances that could be the difference between safety and a loss of control on launch.
Lemme write that down to make sure I understand that point...
- Depending on the circumstances that could be the difference between safety and a loss of control on launch. -
How'd I do? Did I get that right? This sounds critically important. Can't believe this wasn't covered before I got signed off on my Two.
Why would a pilot expose himself to that risk when there are alternative (and safer) ways to verify hook-in status?
He WOULDN'T, Bob. If you watch the videos...
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3729/13148945555_cea849a8eb_o.png
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/8356999007_a283a027c4_o.jpg
05-0805
13-1702
http://ozreport.com/forum/files/copy_2_of_imgp1239_197.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7220/13949046702_ccfa0fafab_o.png
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/opener-532x800.jpg
2-005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
Hang Gliding Fail
andyh0p - 2011/04/24 - dead
03-0325 - 06-0511
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/13512258445_6b5a3662d0_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/12931220073_1609b59b17_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864885_3b8ca2da8c_o.png
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52378864870_2129572e3a_o.png
18-0919 - 21-1025
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15661252749_7fcfe6445a_o.jpg
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/14704620965_ce30a874b7_o.png
...it's pretty fucking obvious that virtually no one is stupid enough to be listening to T** at K*** S****** and exposing himself to that insane risk. Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs - long track record, tried and true, works just about all the time.
08-12302
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8787/28748851353_f02093047c_o.png
13-12415
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8805/29336365186_f07f862e28_o.png
14-21004
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8035/29336363216_317c658670_o.png
09-05019
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/13891086719_3ba7e65d38_o.png
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2933/14074543322_a183cc3a23_o.png
10-05124
Second, depending on the launch terrain and wind conditions, lifting the glider by as much as a foot to get an afformative "tug" could easily expose all or part of the glider to significantly different wind conditions.
God yes! The turbulent jet stream! So many of our beloved fellow pilots have died by lifting the glider by as much as a foot to get an afformative "tug" and exposing all or part of the glider to significantly different wind conditions. That needs to be on the written test too! 'Specially with so many of our instructors ACTUALLY TEACHING their students/victims to DELIBERATELY lift their gliders by as much as a foot to expose all or part of the glider to significantly different wind conditions.
This is most dangerous in crosswind situations where the wind experienced by each wing may already be somewhat different in both speed and angle.
God yes! I always snug that glider down on my shoulders and launch from a squat whenever there's a crosswind.
Again, why would a pilot expose himself to greater danger and uncertainty by raising his wing prior to launch when there are alternative (and safer) ways to verify hook-in status?
Go fuck yourself, Bob.
Third, in windy conditions, it's often advisable for the pilot to apply a nose-down torque to the glider with a combination of hands low on the down tubes (pulling in) and upper arms and/or shoulders high on the down tubes (pushing out). This torque helps keep the glider's nose down and increases the pilot's ability to control the glider in windy launch conditions. While it might be possible to maintain that torque by carefully sliding the glider up to get the "tug", such a manuver isn't easy and would contribute to another source of complication and danger. Yet again, why would a pilot expose himself to greater danger and uncertainty by raising his wing prior to launch when there are alternative (and safer) ways to verify hook-in status?
Wow, Bob! I never realized this stuff! Did you derive it all using Navier-Stokes equations?
Fourth (and somewhat related to the previous point), any action taken by the pilot at the moment of launch which is not taken for the explicit purpose of performing the best possible launch is a diversion from the pilot's focus...
...on the launch itself.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1149
Team Challenge: Daily Update Thread
Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01 18:19:55 UTC
Incident at 2005 Team Challenge
I don't have many details at this point, but I just got a call from Scott Wilkinson. Bill Priday launched from Whitwell without hooking in. Scott indicated there was about a hundred foot drop off from launch. Bill's status is unknown at this time. Please pray for him!
I will provide updates as I get them from Scott.
Whether that action is a "lift and tug" or a "turn and smile for the camera" or anything else, it is a diversion from the task of performing the best possible launch the pilot can perform in those conditions.
Nah, you couldn't have derived all this using Navier-Stokes equations 'cause...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=811
FTHI
Bob Kuczewski - 2011/10/25 06:28:43 UTC
Joe Greblo knows far more about hang gliding than I probably ever will.
...Joe Greblo knows far more about hang gliding than you probably ever will. So obviously you learned it from him. So how come this isn't common knowledge amongst ALL his students? You were the only one of his students noble and decent enough to get the inside scoop on the dangers of hook-in checks?
When you perform a launch, you perform a launch. If you have to perform a combination launch / hook-in check, then you're compromising your launch. Period.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
If that compromise...
What compromise? Can you show me a video depicting some perceptible degree of control being lost as a consequence of this "compromise"?
...were an absolute necessity...
You're right, Bob. For everyone who always launched hooked in a hook-in check is NEVER an absolute necessity - just a needless dangerous compromise.
...then there would be no other alternative. But there is an alternative. A pilot can perform a "turn and look" hook-in check moments before launch...
Luen Miller - 1994/11
After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about ten miles per hour or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted sixty feet to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."
...and then devote their full attention to the launch itself.
Or, depending upon the outcome, "THEIR" full attention to getting an emergency response from the emergency response team.
The pilot might decide that the best launch technique is with a tight hang strap ... or not.
Nobody's talking about launching with a tight strap - asshole. We're talking about complying with:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
But that decision is based on performing the best possible launch and not as a compromise to serve a purpose that is much better served by a visual hook-in check.
There's no such thing as a visual hook-in check. If it's visual...
...the fuckin' glider is on the fuckin' ground and you're doing a preflight check.
To summarize, I would say that none of these compromises of launch safety...
Right. They're compromises of launch safety 'cause The Great Bob Kuczewski has just stated them to be - without citing a single supporting incident from anywhere within the history of hang gliding. The same Great Bob Kuczewski who's told us that engine failure on takeoff and stalls...
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
...are no fuckin' way safety issues...
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg
...for anyone capable of simultaneously walking and chewing gum.
...are justified to perform a hook-in check that could have been done - and done even better - just seconds earlier (you'll find many pictures of me doing just that prior to launch scattered on this forum).
And we'll NEVER find ANY pictures of you ANYWHERE doing THIS:
13-03110
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3697/13700915564_87a2a336b0_o.png
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2912/13700562685_86575e9220_o.png
14-03129
under ANY circumstances - no matter how benign or ideal - 'cause you bust your ass making goddam sure you never cast the faintest shadow of legitimacy on legitimate hook-in checks.
If you look at the pretty much nonexistent photo record of Yours Truly you will see me doing hang checks when I need to check my clearance, getting into my harness when it's connected to my glider whenever safe and convenient, turning around and inspecting my suspension to make sure it's properly connected with no twists or misroutings, feeling with a hand to check that I'm in my leg loops - all the preflight bullshit that assholes preach for preventing unhooked launches. And you will NEVER see me move a foot in any circumstances unless I've forced or allowed my suspension to go tight at some point in the prior two second interval.
I'm guessing that you, on the other hand, use crew to hold the glider down and keep the suspension slack when there's enough wind to make it going tight a possibility.
There's nothing wrong with the lift and tug, and I've said that I think it's a good habit to develop.
But you yourself would never do one even if an advocate had electrodes clamped to opposite sides of your scrotum.
And if you find yourself in a situation where you don't feel comfortable doing the lift and tug...
Can you quote ONE SINGLE PERSON who actually DOES lift and tug finding himself in a situation in which he doesn't FEEL COMFORTABLE doing it?
...then you can use that discomfort to heighten your attention to being sure that you are hooked in before launch ... or simply not fly.
Oh, thank you so much for granting us your permission.
Who the fuck do you think you are? You were never even a certified instructor - for whatever that's worth - and have never signed off a single rating.
Check out Rob's record:
http://willswing.com/flystrong.asp
Wills Wing, Inc. - Rob Kells, In Memoriam
Hang Glider Pilot since 1973 - Master Rated by United States Hang Gliding Association
- 2100 hours
- 5000 flight operations
- Tandem Hang Glider Instructor - 200 flights
Production and Developmental Test Pilot for Wills Wing since 1977
Paraglider Pilot since 1986
Weight Shift Ultralight Pilot - 70 hours
Fixed Wing Ultralight Pilot - 200 hours
FAA Private Pilot
- Airplane Single Engine Land and Sea ratings
- Airplane Multi Engine Land
- Instrument Airplane
- Glider Aerotow
-- Total Time 1700 Hours
Head of Sales for Wills Wing since 1978
Competition Achievements
- US Team Member - FAI Hang Gliding World Championships - 1985
- Major Competitions Won:
-- Grouse Mountain Championships 1980 and 1986
-- First World Speed Gliding Championships - Telluride 1997
-- Chattanooga Great Race - 1984
-- Morningside Glide Angle Contest - 1994 and 1997
-- Chelan Classic
-- Telluride Aerobatic Championships
Professional Associations:
- Member United States Hang Gliding Association Board of Directors (Honorary Director) - 1980 through 1998
Professional Awards:
- Presidential Citation - United States Hang Gliding Association - 1998
- Order of the Raven - Grandfather Mountain
- Rogallo Foundation Hall of Fame - May 20, 2007
Whatever yours is, it totally sucks by comparison.
Here's Rob's statement on this issue:
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Following a recent fatal accident caused by the pilot launching unhooked, there has been a discussion on how to guarantee that you are hooked in. The two main methods are:
1. Always do a hang check before launch, and/or
2. Always hook your harness into the glider before you get into the harness.
Interestingly, NEITHER of these methods GUARANTEES that you will not launch unhooked some day. Let's add a third one:
3. Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.
He says he ALWAYS uses it and makes ZERO mention of any of the myriad bullshit problems and hazards you invented. Is he LYING to us? Deliberately concealing the deadly associated side effects? If so, can you quote anyone criticizing or denouncing him or his position?
You're totally full o' shit Bob - just a better educated, more intelligent, refined, articulate, calculating version of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. We dealt with that motherfucker. Dealing with you is gonna be a lot harder - even given the fact that that little piece of shit enjoyed widespread popularity and had The Industry totally behind him while you're widely hated and a target of a good chunk of The Industry - but it'll be worth the effort.
preflighters.
