instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[<BS>]

Anybody got anything better?

Invisible dust devil.

[Tad Eareckson]

Anybody NOT involved in the cover-up.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32366
An accident has taken another pilot. :0(

Michael Farren - 2015/01/27 05:16:55 UTC
South Bunbury

Trevor Scott flew in Western Australia and was very well regarded. This is a copy of a post by his brother about Trevor's accident.

Hello.

This is Greg Scott.

Trevor's brother.

To those of you that don't already know, Trevor passed away whilst hang gliding, 24.1.14.

24.1.15.

The family is devastated at the news.

What we do know at this early stage is that it was not a fault with the glider, but maybe a medical condition Trevor suffered whilst in flight.

I doubt it.

All our hearts are with Berengere who is in France preparing to fly here.

The family understands that all of Trevors friends are grieving same as we are and our hearts go out to you as well. Please be comforted in the knowledge that he died doing something he truly loved.

No he didn't.

We do not blame the sport for his loss...

Not for this one.

...and encourage you to have a flight in his honor.

Fear not. That's the one thing hang glider people are really good at in the wake of these.

Further details later.

Better than we're getting from within the sport.

Rest in peace little brother."

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40918
Hang Gliding Instructor's Clinic

Davis Straub - 2015/01/30 13:22:10 UTC

Bart at <Fly> writes:
IP Host: Cowboy Up Hang Gliding - Texas
IP Administrator: Bart Weghorst
Ratings: HG USHPA Basic, HG USHPA Advanced
Dates: February 23 & 24
Place: Houston, Texas
Cost: $200
Open to qualified pilots.
Call (832) 740-2004 or email <fly> for more info or to sign up.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

Un fucking believable.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32380
Florida trip video

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/28 14:51:32 UTC

Nothing spectacular here, but it's winter in the Northeast and I miss this place already. Spent a week there, two weeks ago. They haven't been having great flying weather, but I did manage two half-hour soaring flights and lots of fun sleds. Here's a few clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKK9mCAT49A
]

Tom Lyon - 2015/01/29 06:01:51 UTC

Thanks for sharing! Glad you got to go to Quest and fly.

And come back alive.

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/30 14:08:36 UTC

One comment....
Next time I will crash so I can generate a little more interest .....

Cory Barnwell - 2015/01/30 16:34:20 UTC
Nashville

It was nice flying with you that weekend. Hope to see you at Lookout soon.

Definitely...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

Me too.

Don Arsenault - 2015/01/30 16:34:52 UTC
Toronto

What sort of weak link did you use and why?
There you go, that should generate some comments.

Yeah, it should...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32824
Weaklink testing

Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

Remember the good ol' pre-Marzec days when everyone and his dog knew what sort of one-size-fits-all weak link was being used and why? 130 pound Greenspot, huge track record, keeps you from getting into too much trouble, increases the safety of the towing operation, 'cause Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is the Pilot In Command of your glider and he says so? Fuckin' golden age of hang glider aerotowing.

Seriously though, nice flights!

Yeah, seriously. Totally awesome. An Ignacio Galaz would've definitely ended up roasting in the powerlines or splatted all over the highway.

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/30 20:09:51 UTC

You too, Cory. Nice flying with you!

Pity we don't have any blurry videos of his extended sleds too.

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/30 20:10:34 UTC

Don Arsenault - 2015/01/30 16:34:52 UTC

What sort of weak link did you use and why?
There you go, that should generate some comments.

Yeah, big fuckin' joke. Ya know what today is and its significance with respect to Quest Air and hang gliding history?

Tom Lyon - 2015/01/30 21:56:52 UTC

And don't you think that the releases we use are all completely unsatisfactory and the only good one is that two-stage release they use so much in Europe?

Fuck you, Tom.

Cory Barnwell - 2015/01/30 23:08:06 UTC

I think a good release should have a minimum of five stages.

The new and improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park release isn't good enough for you?

Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

If properly used, there is a minimum of three ways to release from the towline. Do not depend on any of these ways by themselves and fly with a back up. The first release is the primary release which under certain situations may fail, second, is the secondary release that works most of the time, if all is set up correctly, and third, the weak link which will break under the right load. You should also fly with a hook knife that will allow you to cut the line if need be.

It has four stages if you include the hook knife.

Brad Barkley - 2015/01/31 03:53:59 UTC

I got to see a Koch two-stage release up close and personal in Florida.



I made the comment that if you were ever attacked in the LZ you would have a nice heavy-duty weapon handy.

If I ever attack your ass in the LZ you're gonna need something a lot heavier duty than that handy.

God for bid...

"For bid" is one word, Mister Professional Fiction Writer.

...that thing would ever break loose and hit you with the face!

Cool Breeze - 2015/02/01 00:17:49 UTC

Dude you crossed controlled that entire flight

Yeah, I noticed that. He actually intended to land at Wallaby but the glider kept turning opposite from the what he intended with his input every time.

michael170 - 2015/02/02 05:42:10 UTC

Tom Lyon - 2015/01/30 21:56:52 UTC

And don't you think that the releases we use are all completely unsatisfactory and the only good one is that two-stage release they use so much in Europe?

2015/02/02 06:57:15 UTC - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
2015/02/02 08:22:24 UTC - Sink This! -- Tormod Helgesen
2015/02/02 12:42:27 UTC - Sink This! -- Brad Barkley

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC
Joined: 2013/12/31

I have considerable experience with forums. I have observed that there is on every forum a contingent who feel it is their duty to be the guardians of safety. To virtually any topic they can and do make grave pronouncements of injury and death if everything isn't done exactly as they say. You see, safety is always the high road; it cannot be argued against. Therefore the more safety one advocates, they higher they are on the pedestal of righteousness. They stand important upon their ivory tower of forum sanctimony.

The problems with this are numerous:

1) By continually emphasizing what bad thing can happen they present a distorted and negative view to onlookers.

2) By constantly emphasizing the negative, they can induce fear in others which can become self-fulfilling and actually make the negative happen.

3) By emphasizing the negative, they make the entire forum a downer.

And perhaps most importantly:

4) ...they discourage exploration, new thinking, advancement and excellence.
Safety minions will always say NO to a new idea, or anything done differently than the established dogma. Imagine: 360-degree turns were once considered dangerous. No doubt there were dire warnings of the consequences!

On other forums of which I participate, these types are called "safety nazis." Considering how overbearing they typically are, it's not a bad title.

Lol, now watch some moron respond with, "There's no such thing as being too safe." Yes, there is.
By definition we risk ourselves by flying. If we carry safety to the extreme, we stop flying entirely. So safety is a compromise, something a nazi cannot do.

I have considerable experience with forums.

- Yeah. You've been on this one WELL over thirteen months! And who knows HOW LONG you've been flying. So we muppets should all really perk up and pay attention.

- Yeah? List them. And give us your name so's we know who the fuck you are.

I have observed that there is on every forum a contingent who feel it is their duty to be the guardians of safety.

If it's hang gliding they should be a lot of the same people from forum to forum. So tell us who some of them are.

To virtually any topic they can and do make grave pronouncements of injury and death if everything isn't done exactly as they say.

- EVERYTHING *EXACTLY* as "they" say. There's someone who tells us that either battens are stuffed in a precise order or our days will be numbered.

- Are there different procedures for recovering from stalls and spins?

You see, safety is always the high road; it cannot be argued against. Therefore the more safety one advocates, they higher they are on the pedestal of righteousness. They stand important upon their ivory tower of forum sanctimony.

Thermal conditions are inherently more dangerous than sled crap and people have been killed in and because of normal predictable stuff. Name one person from anywhere in the post bamboo and plastic history of the sport who's advocated flying in non thermal conditions.

The problems with this are numerous:

1) By continually emphasizing what bad thing can happen they present a distorted and negative view to onlookers.

Really? Cite some examples. There are lotsa Joe Public assholes who don't understand that sailplanes can be controlled and that if hand gliders let go of the basetube they'll immediately plummet to their deaths.

2) By constantly emphasizing the negative, they can induce fear in others which can become self-fulfilling and actually make the negative happen.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.

This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.

You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.

Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.

3) By emphasizing the negative, they make the entire forum a downer.

Wow, they must be really influential people.

And perhaps most importantly:

4) ...they discourage exploration, new thinking, advancement and excellence.
Safety minions will always say NO to a new idea, or anything done differently than the established dogma.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

Imagine: 360-degree turns were once considered dangerous. No doubt there were dire warnings of the consequences!

When 360 degree turns were considered dangerous 360 degree turns WERE dangerous, as was flying the existing technology more than five feet off the deck - asshole. People were flying shit that would fold up in little puffs of wind.

On other...

...unnamed...

...forums of which I participate, these...

...unnamed...

...types are called "safety nazis." Considering how overbearing they typically are, it's not a bad title.

Tell us who they are and give us some quotes.

Lol, now watch some moron respond with, "There's no such thing as being too safe."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj1Z_BI5OXs
Mike Barber - Part 3/4

Mike Barber - 2007/12/25

I don't risk safety any more. I'd say... the absolute hardest I would push it is on a thousand to one chance of getting hurt - and that's pushing VERY hard. It's pushing it TOO hard. Because, I do this more than a thousand times a year. You're really pushing the envelope at a thousand to one chance of getting hurt. It should be more like one in a HUNDRED thousand - which is probably the same as driving your car.

Yes, there is.
By definition we risk ourselves by flying. If we carry safety to the extreme, we stop flying entirely.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC

Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.

Take if from the other angle... if it were about safety... if you are truly concerned about your safety... why are you towing? Why are the people that are arguing about weaklinks towing?
The answer of course is that it's not actually about "safety".

People get pissed off not because the weaklink breaking made their lives scary... it made it a pain in the ass. They missed the thermal. They had to relight. Etc.
I'm not saying that these are invalid feelings.
I'm saying that they're not about safety.

So safety is a compromise, something a nazi cannot do.

Right. Every time we go up there's a one percent chance that we're gonna finish the flight with a broken arm or worse. There's no fuckin' way we can make what happens at the flying site a tiny fraction as safe as driving to and from the flying site.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

See, most people are happy with how we do things. This isn't an issue for them. They just come out and fly. Thing's aren't perfect, but that's life... and life ain't perfect. You do what you can with what you've got and you move on.

But then there's a crowd that "knows better". To them, we're all morons that can't see "the truth".
(Holy god, the names I've been called.)

I have little time for these people.

It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things. The fanaticism makes it extremely hard to have a conversation about these things as they always degrade into arguments. So I save the actual conversations for when I'm talking with people in person.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

So let's just shut the fuck up and recognize that we're just rolling dice every time we go up. And you should know this better than just about anyone 'cause of all your vast experience on forums with safety nazis. And anybody who can't handle that is welcome to stay home and play checkers.

And you don't have a strong position on ANYTHING 'cause no fuckin' way anybody's ever gonna be able to accuse YOU of being a safety nazi.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7916/31540774647_f71ed7cd5e_o.png
http://www.energykitesystems.net/Lift/hgh/TadEareckson/FTHI.pdf

Nazi sympathizer.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/02/10 13:38:35 UTC
West Virginia

Agreed.

If we took safty to it's logical conclusion we'd spend our entire lives in sterile padded boxes, which doesn't sound to me much like living.

Yeah, we could all expect to have REAL long and healthy life expectancies if we spent our entire lives in sterile padded boxes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc4-mRxy5GY


Fuckin' idiot.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Timothy Ward - 2015/02/10 15:38:21 UTC
Mira Loma

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC

1) By continually emphasizing what bad thing can happen they present a distorted and negative view to onlookers.

1) Surviving the early days of the sport, some of us have seen bad things happen. Many of those bad things were the result of ignorance.

Let's not forget stupidity.

We'd prefer they didn't happen again.

But let's keep on doing the same things the same way over and over again and expect better results. If we start making changes we start losing the benefits of extremely long track records.

It isn't typically the onlookers who will be killed by the pilot's ignorance.

2) By constantly emphasizing the negative, they can induce fear in others which can become self-fulfilling and actually make the negative happen.

2) It isn't possible to control other people's reaction to accurate information. That doesn't make disseminating accurate information a bad thing.

3) By emphasizing the negative, they make the entire forum a downer.

3) Awww.

4) Imagine: 360-degree turns were once considered dangerous. No doubt there were dire warnings of the consequences!

4) The 360 was not exactly a newly discovered maneuver even at the beginning of hang gliding. The problem with 360s wasn't nay-saying safety nazis holding back the progress of the sport. The problem was idiots with big egos and equal ignorance spiral diving into the ground. I was there. I saw 'em do it. I offered advice, and was many times blown off, because after all, they'd gotten away with it that time.

Good to see this asshole getting taken apart by someone other than me.

AndRand - 2015/02/10 17:41:31 UTC

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC

On other forums of which I participate, these types are called "safety nazis." Considering how overbearing they typically are, it's not a bad title.

Especially on PG forums where the plain fact that after 10m (33') of free fall you have 50kmh (31mph) and after 30m (100') - 88kmh (55mph) is usually hidden.

However hanggliding is more like mountain bike downhill ride. Speeds and accidents are quite similar. I don't think, Comet, you are demanding that new adepts of downhill shouldn't be aware that accident can make them seriously injured. Yes they are, and that's why serious accidents don't happen frequently - I think it is better for such sports when they attract people aware of such facts.

There are two main differences:
1. when you go for a first time downhill ride you usually know how to ride a bicycle. With hangglider, you usually don't.
2. on bicycle you can brake and stop, on hangglider when you go under 25-30kmh (15-19mph) - you fall.

It's just a stall. Practice them so you can handle and learn not to fear them.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1563
Platform Launching (PL) Draft suggestions needed
Bob Kuczewski - 2014/06/06 17:21:51 UTC

Would we have flown quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows on Davis Links if stalls weren't increasing the safety of the towing operations?

That's why usually obstacles are much farther.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Mike Badley - 2015/02/10 19:57:46 UTC

Comet has a point - to a point. I, too have been victimized by Safety Nazis (we call them Site Nazis) that are over protective, or over-bearingly obnoxious about safety and the 'rules violations'. I have seen these self-same Site Nazis break their own site rules and fly unsafely, or in unsafe conditions, or in unsafe health mode (whether it be slightly drunk, toked up, or just under the weather). I have had guys run their hands over my wing and say stuff like "I wouldn't fly that wing without a safety on that basetube wing-nut" or "There's a little dent in that keel, I wouldn't fly that wing." Yada, yada, yada. I have had guys say "It's not a good looking day, I wouldn't fly in this weather - while I thought it looked great".

Are those guys "safety nazis". How 'bout Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney here:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2809
hook-in failures

Jim Rooney - 2007/10/31 13:31:04 UTC

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
YOU ARE ON CRACK!

I've yet to meet the pilot dumb enough or arrogant enough to fly without a backup loop. Perhaps you'll be the first then?

Thanks, I needed a laugh

being a safety nazi or is he just some total fucking asshole trying to impress everyone with his totally fake keen intellect?

Anyway, you can over do the safety angle.

No you can't. None of those assholes you described are pushing safety issues. Here's someone:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26557
Failure to hook in 6/29/12

Allen Sparks - 2012/07/13 12:41:24 UTC

As a USHPA observer, I will not sign off for a USHPA rating until the pilot has demonstrated that he is doing a hook-in check consistently, just prior to launch, on every flight I observe.

starting to get a handle on becoming a good safety nazi. That's an ACTUAL issue.

However, when some newbie comes to a 'well established forum of seasoned, well intentioned, highly knowledgeable pilots'...

Do you know of one?

...and says - "I just bought a wing (from god knows where) and I'm going over to some hills nearby to just hop around and have fun, got any advice??" What do you THINK is going to happen?

Could be worse. Could go over to Lockout Mountain Flight Park and get forced to do things "right".

"Oh, lovely! Have fun! Do go easy on it, love. You might scrape your knees... Consider some training, if it fits your budget." He-llllll No.

So just how much disagreement is there about an issue like that and just how much of an actual factor is it in hang gliding safety?

How 'bout this one?:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png
37-23223

How many years have ya gotta scream at these assholes that they have no fuckin' clue what they're talking about and doing and they're gonna get (more) people killed?

To rebut your comments:
1) Screw the onlookers, we are not talking to them.

Screw respect for the family members after the fact as well.

To emphasize what could happen to the PILOT IN QUESTION is to remind them they are human and that they have to understand the ever-present dangers, that they must always plan ahead, be prepared and adjust to conditions and develop the skills to allow them to explore the edges of their abilities in a SAFE manner.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Comet's idiot post.

Consider the effect on on-lookers that happen by a training hill where they see students under competent instruction, all smiling and enjoying little bunny hops while they evaluate their progress and envy the students who are flying a little higher doing nice S turns and great flares.

Especially those great flares! You can't have a great flight without it ending in a great flare!

Contrast that with a day they happen to see some guy, solo on a little hill who has his friend that knows nothing about HG and they flop around the hill stalling and crashing into bushes... well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which type of activity will have a more POSITIVE effect on onlookers.

How 'bout this one?:

2) Inducing FEAR into pilots is a natural counterbalance to an over-amped ego that MOST pilots have. If you didn't have that ego - you shouldn't be flying hang gliders. My bet is, without that ego - you WOULDN'T be flying hang gliders.

Yeah, there's never been any shortage of ego in the assholes who fly these things.

Still it has to be controlled. I think it was Eric Fair that talked about two control modes in your brain. The R2D2 analytical thinking side that helps you be rational and make good choices against the 350 pound gorilla called MAT. (More Air Time). At first, MAT is more than a match for R2D2 - and has to be controlled externally by C3PO (aka the instructor, mentor, site Nazi, fellow peers) But eventually R2D2 can learn to control MAT - allowing for joy of flight for many years, not ended by some event that either gets him killed or scared so bad he drops the sport. Like you, though, I believe IF YOU THINK BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN, THEY PROBABLY WILL. You should be fully confident and believe in yourself at all times!

Bullshit. You need to know what bad things ARE happening, WHY they're happening, how to make them NOT happen and have confidence in the THEORY and PROCEDURES. Having confidence and BELIEF in oneself is just begging for it. What is it that goeth before a fall?

It is a weird feeling when a younger (less experienced) pilot asks you 'what do you think I should do today?' Most of the time, I buck them up and say - it looks great, and YOU can do it. There is nothing in the day that should be something you can't handle. I will remind them of things like keeping nose down, running hard, not getting caught too far back, paying attention to wind in the LZ, where to go if you bail...

...how to nail that old Frisbee in the middle of the field...

...etc. It's not my call to tell somebody to back off - a very personal decision. I have had seasoned pilots do the same for me. It really helps when they look at you, smile and say "Have a GREAT FLIGHT"

2-005

3) Emphasizing NEGATIVE is not good - however, in a forum, particularly about a single issue "I don't like anybody controlling me, so I am going to a hill and teach myself.."

Boy if we can just keep all these guys from going to hills and teaching themselves we could really clean this sport up once and for all.

...the NEGATIVE aspects should be fully addressed and harped on to an extent. Almost ALL of the people I know (me personally) that have died, have done so in some relation to this sport or PG.

What percentage of them have been guys who went to hills to teach themselves?

I think the intent of a 'Scared Straight' approach to getting somebody to take instruction cannot be overstressed.

I think you're totally full o' shit.

The FORUMS we have here on the org site allow for raw beginners to be developed with some damn good advice.

Which is really great news - seeing as how all their USHGA certified instructors totally suck.

4) Being a brand new pilot, grabbing a wing and 'Exploring' is like sending somebody to the arctic with a friggin' hoodie and a Snickers bar.

Which is probably why nobody actually does it.

I think there is PLENTY of opportunity now to explore safely and with some good advice. The internet, this forum and YouTube has actually INCREASED the desire for exploration.

Damn straight. People see something like this:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15661252749_7fcfe6445a_o.jpg


they start listening to the safety nazis and complying with USHGA's hook-in check regulation.

People show mistakes which really helps understand the learning.

Or like this:

05-215

07-300

08-301

09-304

11-311

15-413


they start listening to other safety nazis and putting their releases within easier reaches.

People show great flights, which really helps increase the desire.

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967


They get their flare timing perfected and stop doing this:

46-45901
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14081080220_373f64f01d_o.png

People show exploration and discovery, which really helps instill courage and determination from others to push themselves.

Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12356
dont be a fag

Brian Horgan - 2009/06/07 15:43:29 UTC

if you dont get off this computer today and go fly,YOU ARE A FAG!!!
go fly its beautiful outside and the clouds are calling you.

People discuss SAFETY and show concern for others, which really helps new pilots to understand the dangers and that they have mentors out there. IF they will listen.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Let's hear it for The Jack Show!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Nic Welbourn - 2015/02/11 00:23:26 UTC

There's probably room for both.
Personally, I have learnt much from forums. The more opinion/information you have, the better choices you can make for yourself.
I keep asking for critique from fellow pilots, but most don't. There is a saying: 'a miss is as good as a mile', which is fine until one day it's not a miss.

So are there different better choices for different individuals? Don't we all respond to gravity pretty much the same way? Aren't there any best OPINIONS that converge into obvious SOPs?

I'd rather learn from other people's mistakes.

So tell us about some of these other people's mistakes from which you've learned. Please focus on the new ones that nobody's ever made before.

And any thoughts on why instructors aren't tuned into the potential problems and qualifying students to deal with them?

Steve Corbin - 2015/02/11 02:28:26 UTC

Now, we all know that back in the bad old days people got hurt and/or killed due to unsafe equipment and/or unsafe technique. However, in the early beginnings there was a lot of experimentation and innovation that we no longer see.

Well yeah. Back then we weren't privileged to have the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden...

The towline release is a critically important piece of equipment. It is the device which frees you from the towline and it must be failure-proof. Numerous designs have evolved over the years--some very good and some not so good. Unfortunately, releases are items that many pilots feel they can make at home or adapt from something they have seen at the hardware store. Two fatalities have occurred in the past 5 years directly related to failures of very poorly constructed and maintained releases. For the sake of safety, only use releases that have been designed and extensively tested by reputable manufacturers. Listed below are various types of releases available with their attributes and applications.

Provided in Appendix III is a performance test specification for towline releases. This is not presented to give you guidelines for making your own, but rather to make you aware of the requirements of a good release in order to select and purchase good equipment (See Appendix IV).

...and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.

...around telling us we were all too stupid to have any good ideas about anything and the abilities to put them into the air.

At some point in future time there is a good possibility of no more "manufactured" gliders, as we think of them today.

Flyers will have to make up gliders of their own.

Yeah, that'll happen. I've spent about a decade and a half trying to get people to use non bent pins in their releases with damn near nothing in the way of success but as soon as the major manufacturers fold people will start building their own toplesses in their garages and basements.

Unlike the sixties and seventies, however, those flyers will have the knowledge of what works and what don't.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Tommy.
First, I sent Steve a bunch of info offline. Hopefully it clears things up a bit for him.
Unfortunately, he's stumbled onto some of Tad's old rantings and got suckered in. So most of this was just the same old story of debunking Tad's lunacy... again .

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

In today's Hg world, we see very little innovation.

And when we DO see it...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3840
[TIL] About Tad Eareckson

Orion Price - 2013/03/11 15:12:28 UTC

Final bit of troll food, I read about Tad's reputation this morning.

Tad Eareckson is a generally discounted crackpot and internet troll. He doesn't fly and has been perma-banned from most everywhere: .org, oz report and all the local club websites with discussion forums like ours.

He has two main speaking points. 1. All HG landings should be done prone as belly landings using wheels. All other foot landings are suicidal, he will say. He schadenfreudes hard at our accidents and especially fatalities 2. He is a self proclaimed "engineer" and inventor of Rube Goldberg tow bridles. As you can see his elegant designs are a huge commercial success sweeping the industry. His explanation of how his bridles work indicated he doesn't have any education on the subject.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/


His situation reminds me of a tragedy of a family friend. As began to loose his edge, he proportionality wanted to write people weirder and weirder letters. Newspaper editors, distant relatives, and especially the government would receive long rants pointing out his intelligence and schadenfreuding over their failures. Eventually his internet usage had to be monitored, and his snail-mail letters "mailed" by someone else. The failure mode exhibited here is nearly identical.

...we immediately whip our dicks out and start pissing all over it and, of course, the innovator.

In fact, the only thing that has happened since 1980...

...1979...

...is refinement.

Admittedly, the modern kites are highly refined. But the bottom line is that they are only refined Comets.

Goddam right.

It will be when folks have to roll their own instead of buying tailor-made that we'll start seeing real innovation. It won't be until then that the hang glider will see significant improvement.

Yeah, the major glider manufacturers who've all spent decades trying to kick each other's asses at comps and with easier handling beginning and recreational gliders haven't been able to do anything in the way of innovation but after they collapse hang glider pilots - most of whom think that the purpose of the spreader...

17-11422
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8546/29432805605_c0c2c710bb_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2831/9623912388_98cf582742_o.png
1504

...is to keep the carabiner from being crushed - will suddenly find themselves free of their oppressive weight and immediately start cranking out hitherto undreamed of designs with twice the performance and handling at half the weight and price.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention.

That must be why we recently invented two hundred pound test fishing line and decided we were happy with using it for our standard aerotow weak links.

Always has been, always will be. God bless Mom.

Yeah Steve, the problem with that is that hang gliders AREN'T NECESSARY for anything but hang gliding and we're seeing a bunch of demographic, social, political, economic issues pushing them towards extinction. And near extinction under current pressures ain't gonna set things up for a Renaissance and new golden age fueled by the genius of the few inbred senile morons we still have flying these things.

And here's about the one thing we can ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT:

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

But hang gliding's motto has always been, "Give me foot landings or give me death." - so nuthin' much is ever gonna happen on that front.

Fred Wilson - 2015/02/11 04:09:36 UTC

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC

I have considerable experience with forums. I have observed that there is on every forum a contingent who feel it is their duty to be the guardians of safety. To virtually any topic they can and do make grave pronouncements of injury and death if everything isn't done exactly as they say. You see, safety is always the high road; it cannot be argued against. Therefore the more safety one advocates, they higher they are on the pedestal of righteousness. They stand important upon their ivory tower of forum sanctimony.

YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE ON FORUMS?

MEALY MOUTHED LITTLE SNIT WEASELS THAT HIDE BEHIND THEIR ANONYMITY.

Any comment, peanuts - AKA Dennis Wood?

At http://www.paraglidingforum.com/ they BAN all pilots without REAL NAMES.

And the ones who kick their asses...

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Forum Moderators - 2010/02/24 22:02:46 UTC

We, the Moderators, feel that weak links are an important topic. In our view Tad Eareckson's posts have discouraged others from taking part in this discussion, so, after several warnings, he has been banned. His most recent post, after this topic was locked, is here. We are happy to lift the ban if we come to the view that Tad has further positive contributions to make - please contact us by PM or by email if you feel that this is the case.

...WITH real names.

Yes you can use a USER ID nick name. But under it you have to have your real name or you are gone in an instant.

Or, for someone who's scoring points, a bit under twelve weeks.

Maybe time for that here?

Maybe it's also time for the motherfucker running the dump...

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part.

...to stop lying about what his rules are.

And now...

Last edited by Fred Wilson on 2015/02/11 10:42:50 UTC; edited 5 times in total

...after the quote from Comet comes instead:

Comet is actually Manfred Ruhmer!
One of my most admired people. A real Sky God.

When you talk, I listen. This thread just got interesting.
Re: http://www.members.shaw.ca/ftlwilson/_vti_txt/fatality.html

Well, if someone is A real Sky God - OF COURSE. He can spew all the stupid obnoxious shit he feels like and we'll just eat it up with a spoon.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/ftlwilson/_vti_txt/fatality.html
Fatality Reports 1974-2003

Gold mine. I FINALLY got a date on George DePerrio more specific than "1988" (1988/07/03). Maybe I'd have gotten it a lot sooner if the assholes hadn't spelled his name: "DePierrio".

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32449
Forums and Safety

Garrett Speeter - 2015/02/11 17:11:37 UTC

Comet - 2015/02/10 03:54:33 UTC

I have considerable experience with forums...

well said.

Superbly. You can tell by all of the really great feedback he's been getting.

Especially #4.

And perhaps most importantly:

4) ...they discourage exploration, new thinking, advancement and excellence.
Safety minions will always say NO to a new idea, or anything done differently than the established dogma. Imagine: 360-degree turns were once considered dangerous. No doubt there were dire warnings of the consequences!

I have dealt with that one on my tow rig.

Oh. Safety nazis have attacked you for all of the revolutionary new concepts you're implementing on your tow rig. Bummer.

Still think using a human as a mouth operated nose release is safer than taking your hand off the bar to release on launch.

- And those are the only two launch options:
-- using a human as a mouth operated nose release
-- taking your hand off the bar to release

Did you even bother to glance at any of the ten posts that appeared following your request for help here?

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic80.html
Best way to make nose release on platform launch

- So what's the EVIDENCE upon which you're basing your "thinking"? Has anyone in the history of platform launching ever experienced so much as a mild bobble as a consequence of taking a hand off to pop the nose release? (Not that there are that many (any other?) platform rig designers too goddam clueless to be able to rig a nose release system that allows you to pop with both hands on the bar.)

Really hard to imagine you're ever gonna have major problems with safety nazis discourage your exploration, new thinking, advancement, excellence, new ideas, things done differently from what's defined by established dogma.

Go fuck yourself, Garrett.