For a couple of years I have flown with a doubled weaklink because, flying with a rigid wing glider, I have found that there is little reason to expect trouble on tow, except from a weaklink break.
From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:
Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Davis Straub - 2011/07/31 17:55:25 UTC
To break under load before the glider does.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 20:10:56 UTC
Oh, and BTW, Tad is clueless as well as being a child molester (no kidding).
And some Words of Wisdom from God's Special Little Messenger from the Capitol club archives...
Brian, this discussion to me is only relevant for one scenario. Big guys, the major target group of Tad's futile efforts, with greenspot weak links entering a high line tension lockout and not releasing. I don't give a rat's ass about anything else that could and might and will likely never. So, in that particular scenario, Brian or Jim, if you were in my shoes, would you want something that breaks at 0.8 G, 1+ G or 1.4+ G? If I get an answer to that question from either one of you I will gladly leave this discussion and wait for something new to debate you guys on.
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC
Brian,
While I appreciate your quest for the perfect weaklink, didn't we cover this already? (Again?)
Are we to go down the road of debating the quality standards of greenspot again?
Ok, for review, it doesn't matter.
Why?
Because you have nothing else.
Do I have to review why we don't tow handmade gliders?
Listen we're all perfectly aware that greenspot is not laser calibrated to 130lbs. It's bloody fishing line. Get over it. Are you flying below your perfect numbers as a heavy guy. Yes. Yes you are. Get over it.
Why?
Because it's all you've got.
Why lower numbers? Because your choice is lower or higher... and higher is more dangerous than lower.
Plain and simple. Janni, 1G, but please stay.
So one G is, of course, the PERFECT weak link for lockout protection (obviously, because it's universally RECOMMENDED.
But, of course, 130 pound Greenspot ALWAYS trumps G rating because it's the only material in the known universe within range of the Hubble's spectrometers which is calibrated well enough to use on all solo gliders.
So let's go back to Davis...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.
...to solve the age old mystery of EXACTLY what the breaking strength of this miracle material is (at least when it's politically convenient for Davis to have high numbers).
If the Greenspot is about 180 - 200 pounds which as I recall is what we found at Quest Air (not 125 lbs)...
I'll let the forces on the V-bridle be divided by 2 and leave it at that.
Davis Straub - 2009/04/23 22:16:45 UTC
I like 180 - 200 lbs, which I recall from tests by Steve Kroop that I witnessed, but I'll ask him again, just what the results of those tests were.
Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:15:56 UTC
Yup, at least 175 pounds- single loop of Cortland Greenspot 130 pounds test.
That was one end of the loop in a barrel release where the edges are a bit sharper than where I normally connect the weaklink loop with cloth loops at both ends.
I was jumping a bit so it is more than 175 pounds. Maybe 200+.
OK, a Current Quest Weak Link is 180 to 200 (a good bit down from the Old Quest (and Current Ridgely) Weak Link of...
Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
...about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
And of course...
I'll let the forces on the V-bridle be divided by 2 and leave it at that.
...it makes absolutely no difference whether the Current Quest / Russell / Kroop / Bo / Paul / Lauren / Mitch / Davis / Rooney Weak Link is on a one or two point bridle 'cause Flight Park Mafia turf are physics free zones.
And using Davis's value - meticulously derived by tying a weak link to a tree and jumping on it - we have an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM value of 175. And that's for shock loading - which, as we all well know, is "a hell of a lot" less than it can take if it's smoothly loaded.
(Pity Davis didn't solve that age old mystery when he had already gone to the trouble of getting a couple of ropes and walking to a tree. This is MOST confusing. 'Cause when I smoothly load a loop of 130 pound Greenspot...
...I actually average 131 pounds - 25 percent UNDER Davis's shock load MINIMUM. (And using "maybe 200+", 34+ percent.) Oh well, we'll I guess we'll just hafta chalk it up to another one of God's unfathomable mysteries.)
So anyway... Using Davis's absolute minimum, any glider 233 pounds (27 less than "typical") or under is flying 1.5 Gs or OVER.
This is the figure advised by Dynamic Flight which God's Special Little Messenger characterizes as "drivel" and "a load of shit".
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.
So this ABSOLUTELY SPOTLESS Flight Park Mafia track record that God's Special Little Messenger keeps trying to shove down our throats is inclusive of light gliders flying at 1.5 Gs or more.
And if you've ever watched what happens on the Ridgely flight line for more half an hour or so you understand that the light gliders are doing WAY MORE than their share of contributing to the ABSOLUTELY SPOTLESS track record these assholes maintain.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
Now if their were only SOME POSSIBLE WAY we could endanger the gliders OVER 233 with some as of yet undiscovered weak link material stronger than 130 pound Greenspot - sorry greenspun...
Zack C - 2011/08/31 17:38:50 UTC
The Cortland stuff is available in different breaking strengths, including 200 lbs.
But I guess not. Apparently 130 is the only flavor of greenspun that Cortland MANUFACTURES to specs and quality controls. Otherwise God's Special Little Messenger would've addressed Zack's point.
Also, Stuart Caruk sells line calibrated to various strengths...
Just because people have been doing something for years doesn't mean it's right. Heck look at all the hang glider guys who having been tying loops of 130 pound line for years, and assuming it would break at 260 pounds. Then they wonder why the links seem to break prematurely...
And fuck Stuart. He's a PARAGLIDER guy. What could HE possibly know?
Tommy Thompson - 2011/09/02 14:09:37 UTC
Whitewater
I'v seen pilots experiment with ways to tie a string weaklink in ways to fool launch crew into thinking they are using them. IMO we should brainstorm ways they don't have to go through all that effort.
NO!!! These must be very foolish and/or misguided Hang Twos who simply don't understand the danger to which they're exposing themselves and just wanna get up away from the ground on the first try and go flying.
They simply don't understand the ENORMOUS lockout danger they're inviting by behaving in such a foolhardy manner.
How many of these people have slipped through the safety net at Whitewater? (Your home site.)
Approximately ten emergency vehicles were parked all over the runway.
The EMTs were carrying a (presumed) pilot out from under the wreckage of a hang glider next to the runway. They loaded the victim/stretcher into an ambulance, but didn't drive away. Stayed parked on the runway for at least a half an hour. I don't yet know what the outcome was.
Later heard that he was evacuated by helicopter because of a head injury.
Conditions: 9am local time, 55 degrees, sunny and clear, with little or no wind.
What did Roy Messing use to sneak into launch position on the morning of his fatal lockout?
How many others about whom we haven't yet heard have needlessly died in this manner?
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
I told him that I would be happy to publish anything that he wrote about weaklinks, but I never received anything from him or anyone else at Quest.
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between 5 and 10 pounds of additional breaking strength.
To compensate for the greater power of the 619 engine that Rhett has on his tug, he deliberately flew it at less than full power when taking off or in anything other than absolutely smooth conditions. He started doing this after he noticed that pilots towing behind his more powerful tug were experiencing increased weaklink breakage.
A number of the pilots at the US Nationals were using "strong links" after they became fed up with the problems there. These "strong links" were made with paraglider line and were meant to fool the ground crew into thinking that the pilot had a weaklink.
The problem with strong links (neither Bobby Bailey nor I was aware at the time of the US Nationals that pilots were doing this) is that they endanger the tug pilot. If the hang glider pilot goes into a lock out, and doesn't break the weaklink (because there isn't one), they can stall the tug. I assume that Bobby Bailey won't hear about the use of strong links at the US Nationals until he reads it here.
We need to start getting real serious about flight line security. Make people take their shoes off so we can check for contraband loops of 150.
No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
There have GOTTA be enough pilots out there who are sick enough of this bullshit to take control of their sport back from these assholes. We need to try to get them organized.
I call dibs on kicking Rooney's disembodied head through the goalposts.
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
I thought I should post this since the phone keeps ringing with friends worried about Jim and wanting information. Here is what I know. Yes, the Jim in the article is OUR Jim, Jim Rooney. It was a tandem hang gliding accident, and it involved a power line. I have no more information about the accident itself. The passenger apparently was burned and is hospitalized, but is not seriously injured. Jim sustained a brain injury. He was and is heavily sedated, which means the doctors don't know and can't test for how serious the brain injury is. He is in critical but stable condition.
I don't have anything more to add to this discussion...
Well then how 'bout just sticking around and either get answers to all your questions from the little shit or making things astronomically embarrassing for him when he fails to respond? He's bleeding and we need to at least maintain the flow at the current level.
...but I do have a couple of corrections.
I wrote the above on a phone from memory without properly researching it (like I said, I'm on vacation). The tandem incident I meant to refer to was Jeremiah Thompson and Arlan Birkett (although both incidents involved weak link breaks). I've corrected my original post. Also, the pilot that broke a wrist suffered a premature release, not a weak link break (although the outcome would have been the same). I'll point here:
for another weak link related crash to compensate (yes, there were other factors there as well).
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
yes, there were other factors there as well
Why is the devil always in the fine print, and incidentally in the things people *don't* say.
Yeah Jim? I'm still waiting to hear what you didn't say when Zack asked you:
Are we seeing more crashes for the lightest pilots for whom a 130 lb loop is 1.5 Gs?
As a tug pilot, would you rather have 500 lbs pulling straight aft or 240 pulling straight up? Could not even a glider using a 130 lb Greenspot loop put the tug pilot in danger?
Why would you want to (try fitting a straight pin release with anything but weaklink)? Shouldn't releases be protected by weak links anyway?
Are you saying that straight pins were considered initially but discarded because you have to use weak links with them? Just wondering what the reason curved pins are used is.
Have you ever visited someone put in a hospital because he used too strong a weak link?
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass.
Yep. From acrophobia, hypoxia, hypothermia, and who knows what other horrors associated with REAL aviation.
She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her...
Is that what she said when she regained consciousness? "Thank GOD my weak link helped me!!! If ONLY I hadn't just swapped in a fresh one I'd have only been knocked out half as long!
...for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability.
Well yeah. OBVIOUSLY. She totally sucked. Probably totally sucks as a human being too. Got what was coming to her.
She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
Sure. Mach 1 being five or six miles per hour.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink).
Just like MILLIONS of comp pilots INSIST on towing with really dangerous weak links.
- And that NEVER goes well.
MANY people INSIST on doing it and it NEVER goes well. So...
- How come we're virtually never hearing the accident reports?
- Which of you douchebags are signing these incompetent pilots off for AT?
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
So you won't tow people with dangerous non 130 pound Greenspot weak links and dangerous crappy homemade gear but you WILL tow MANY crappy pilots who INSIST upon coming off the cart at MACH 5 even though you KNOW it NEVER goes well. I'm a bit confused by this.
Your tandem incident was some guy...
SOME GUY??? It was a TANDEM incident - shithead. That means there were TWO guys.
And one of those two guys was a fucking tug driver / flight park owner/operator / Hang Four / Advanced Tandem Instructor / AT Administrator.
And the other guy was a US Ski Team member whom the fucking Advanced Tandem Instructor / AT Administrator was finishing on that flight for solo qualification.
...trying to drag himself out of a low lockout instead of accepting the fact that he was too far out of position and hitting the damn release, pulling the nose in and flying away.
What's your source on that, asshole?
They WEREN'T low - they were at 250 feet, they WEREN'T in a lockout - they were LEVEL, and they WERE in as good a position as they could've been given the fact that they were flying behind a total moron who got high on them and NEVER came back down to help them out.
And they were flying under then and CURRENT Wallaby flight procedures:
Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
And after they followed that protocol they COULDN'T hit the damned release 'cause they were were gonna whipstall and die, which they did anyway when the fucking tug weak link, which is SUPPOSED to hold to a hundred pounds over the glider's - DIDN'T.
Those "other factors" just happen to be *the* factors.
Those "other factors" just happen to be *TOTAL BULLSHIT* - you lying little piece of crap.
You can't look *for* facts to backup your opinion.
That's just bs arguing.
FACTS??? BS??? With all the evil slimy underworld creatures that Buffy staked and beheaded how the hell did she ever miss YOU?
You have to look at facts and find what they tell you.
It doesn't work the other way around.
Un fucking believable. And NOBODY on the Davis Show is calling you on any of this total shit.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/02 20:58:16 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground. Since then, Lookout went through the trouble of "sizing" their carts to help avoid that. They even made a handy plywood gauge you could hold up to your keel and verify the AOA was good.
Had the weak link held she would have had a nice flight. A ten year old could figure that much out.
Steve
This is the Davis Show, Steve. Ten year old kid common sense will get you banned in a heartbeat.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/09/02 21:06:32 UTC
I was there. Two possibilities;
1. Weaklink held and "she would have had a nice flight"
2. In the process of "taking off like a rocket" she got into a lockout and she would have been seriously injured or died.
Two. Definitely. Gliders lock out about a third of the time they come off the cart under the best of circumstances. And whenever someone comes off the cart at normal towing speed a lockout is a foregone conclusion.
I don't think she was hurt at all if I remember correctly.
Well then, if you remember correctly, the 130 pound Greenspot wasn't an issue. She WASN'T hurt so we should just take it for granted that she COULDN'T have been hurt.
I just love folks who think they can fly their way out of a lockout...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
They go up on perfectly good Flight Park Mafia equipment and just stay on tow trying to fly the glider with one hand while trying to pry open a release with the other. And then they do big wingovers when they finally get separated from the tug if they're high enough or...
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
The weak link broke after the glider entered a lockout attitude. Once free, the glider was reportedly too low (50-65' AGL, estimated) to recover from the unusual attitude and impacted the ground in a steep dive. The pilot suffered fatal injuries due to blunt trauma. There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...slam back into the runway if they're not. Asshole.
...particularly at less than 10' off the ground.
Ya know something, douchebag? You get into a lockout at less than ten feet off the ground...
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
That's just a bunch of crap the Flight Park Mafia dons use to make their victims look like idiots when the wind up in intensive care or the morgue as a consequence of the shitrigged equipment and training they sell them.
Lot's of other things going on. But to say she crashed because her weaklink broke makes no sense.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
I would like to add, however, that at least my reading of accident reports suggest that a fatal glider accident is more likely when the towline fails prematurely. For that reason, I like to stay near the stronger end of the FAR 80 to 200 percent range.
Makes me wonder if we should be using Tost weak links instead of old bits of rope.
Police announced Sunday that 55-year-old James Michael Dayton of Mechanicsville was killed Friday when the glider he was riding in crashed into trees near the airport in Hollywood.
Authorities say the pilot was 53-year-old Nicholas John Mirales of Prince Frederick. Mirales was in critical condition when he was flown from the crash scene.
A National Transportation Safety Board spokesman says the Slingsby 49B glider crashed shortly after takeoff when it became disconnected from its towing plane.
No, not in hang gliding after 1981 anyway. That's the year that hang gliders got an exemption from the laws of physics and hang gliding became a religion with the central tenet that there's just no problem that can't be fixed by a light enough weak link.
Rob Clarkson - 2011/09/02 23:07:13 UTC
Calgary
3. The tug pilot gives her the rope and she pounds in any way.
You mean like this:
Bill Bryden - 1999/06
Rob had started to launch once but a premature towline release terminated this effort after only a few meters into the launch roll-out. It is suspected the cart was rolled backwards a bit and the towline was reattached to begin the launch process again. During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 ft. towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma. Rob's body likely cushioned much of the student's impact.
Maybe the fucking tug driver oughta assume that if the goddam glider's on tow it's because the goddam glider WANTS and NEEDS to be on tow.
-The tug can't get off the ground because the tail is being pulled up so much and they both crash into the fence at the end of the run way.
Bullshit. It's never happened and it never will. It's an old Greenspot lover's tale.
Not sure why you guys aren't getting Jim's point.
'Cause he's a total shithead - just like everybody who believes otherwise.
If you come off the cart at the proper speed and break a week link you should be able to land it.
Yeah. Just like you SHOULD be able to land a Cessna if the engine quits on takeoff. But you don't find Cessna pilots adding water to their fuel tanks to make their takeoffs safer.
If not some thing else has gone wrong.
NO SHIT - Asshole. The problem is that every now and then there IS something else going wrong - especially when you've got two planes, two humans, and Mother Nature involved in every takeoff.
By making the weak link stronger you are creating other problems.
STRONGER THAN WHAT - Asshole? Stronger than a single loop of 130 pound Greenspot? IRRESPECTIVE OF YOUR FLYING WEIGHT? Just like God's Special Little Messenger's approach in all his points about weak links?
Let me give you an example:
Lets say the wind switches and now you have to move, wait or, tow down wind. Pilot decides to screw it lets just tow down wind. As he comes off the ground he gets hit with some nasty turbulence and breaks a weak link. He pounds in and breaks a down tube because he's not real good at landing down wind.
And obviously NOTHING like that could ever possibly happen to anyone towing UPWIND.
Next time out same thing happens wind changes direction. Now our pilot learned his leason last time out. This time he doubles up his weak link to make sure it doesn't break right of the cart.
MY GOD!!! Somebody would do something THAT INSANE? DOUBLE a weak link so it doesn't break right OF the cart?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
What is this world coming to! It all started when they took prayer out of the schools I tell ya.
Again he hits strong turbulence, locks out cart wheels his glider and totals it off.
Whereas if he tows upwind with a:
- single loop, hits strong turbulence, locks out:
-- blows the weak link...
-- doesn't blow the weak link...
- double loop, hits strong turbulence, locks out:
-- blows the weak link...
-- doesn't blow the weak link...
and cartwheels, he'll be fine.
Gee I guess a stronger weak link wasn't the answer.
Gee, how long were YOU knocked out for in ninth grade football?
Perhaps the problem was towing down wind. FYI if you tow down wind expect to get nailed hard by the prop wash right when you come off the cart.
What the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING?
Rodent if you don't really believe what your saying please stop being a dick. Some less experienced people might buy into what your saying.
Yeah Rodent, let's all get right with God's Special Little Messenger.
It may seem funny now get people all worked up but it won't be so funny when some gets hurt because they believed what your were saying.
Yeah, that's Rooney's job.
If you believe what your are saying please stop flying before you hurt yourself.
The Press - 2006/03/15
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
However, he took off without attaching himself.
In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.
Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
I have aerotowed recently, my first three times. Wasn't allowed to use my mouth release (got the proper type which opens when you open your mouth) because the club uses Wallaby ranch style V-bridle. I've been really worried about releasing in a critical situation.
Also it didn't help my confidence that the particular top release was very hesitant to open - it took about three seconds of squeezing the bicycle brake type lever to open the release.
I always check my spinnaker shackle hook and the cable. Mine is still pretty much new and has worked perfectly.
But I have seen others fail twice and one of them was during one of my training tandems. I just kept hitting the brake lever for a few seconds in WTF mode, and the instructor used the barrel release.
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20
Under sled conditions, I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.
GT Manufacturing Inc. and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are unwilling to assume the risk.
If you are uncomfortable with the risk of using this tow gear you will need to get gear that you are comfortable with or do not tow.
Learn and understand the risk and the use of this gear.
The new GT aerotow release is designed to be used with a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.
Basically, if you notice a trend of increasing release pull-pressures under similar load conditions then your release needs to be inspected.
The primary release may fail at any time; this is why a secondary release must be used on all tows.
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Love it or leave it. I don't care.
Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC
I think that I know the one that is being referred to.
The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.
- THE problem was that she was pinned to the cart? She didn't crash as a result of being pinned to the cart.
- Apparently she wasn't pinned to the cart very firmly. And she didn't crash as a result of coming off the cart.
- She also didn't crash as a result of flying off the cart like a rocket.
- THE problem was that she needlessly blew a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on her two point bridle.
- In how much danger was her glider of breaking under load?
- Whose fault was it that the folk working at Lookout who were helping her were incompetent?
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
- Aren't you gonna say anything in support of God's Special Little Messenger's spirited defense of 130 pound Greenspot? Seems like you should be morally obligated to do so.
The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10G positive a 1.5G weak link as opposed to a standard 1G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.
None of this is rocket science. It is basic physics combined with elementary mechanics. It applies to all aerotowing and to towing in general. If things go wrong analyse why and fix the problem. Develop the most foolproof system possible. Do it the same way all the time, every time. Remember Murphy's extended law which states: "If anything can go wrong it will go wrong. It will also be the worst possible thing that could go wrong and will inevitably occur at the worst possible moment". Also remember Sod's law which simply states: "Murphy was an optimist."
Dynamic Flight.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 05:43:46 UTC
The sole function is to limit the tow force to prevent damage to the vehicle. Practically speaking, it is most important in ensuring that release mechanisms are not overloaded. It is not a device which does or can ensure that the glider remains within limits of safe control, compensate for inadequate release systems or pilot competencies, prevent a lockout and/or impact, be depended upon to keep the pilot(s) safe, or substitute for timely release actuation or decision making.
Me - AT Guidelines revision.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 05:56:28 UTC
12-02.12
6. The purpose of the weak link is to protect the tow equipment, and may not prevent lockouts or other abnormal flight conditions.
USHGA SOPs - 2009/11 amendment.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 06:12:37 UTC
The sole purpose of a weak link is to serve as a fail safe mechanism to prevent an aircraft from being overloaded and damaged. It is not and cannot be reliably used as a crutch to compensate for every real or imagined threat, defective release system, blown launch, and/or degree of pilot incompetence at the cost of being rated for the ragged edge of sustainable tow. This widespread attitude and approach has lethal potentiality.
Me - Mousetraps.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 06:15:35 UTC
Weak links are there to protect the equipment not the glider pilot. Anyone who believes otherwise is setting them selves up for disaster.
...
Weak links do NOT prevent lockouts and no amount of weak link rules will prevent lock outs
In the event of a lock out releases are there to save the pilot
Steve Kroop.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 06:20:53 UTC
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/03 07:11:36 UTC
Uh hem... truck towing.
Uh hem...
Manned Kiting was primarily concerned with BOAT towing.
And the towing was all through the FRAME.
And even as unstable and lockout prone as that system was and even though the weren't crashing into anything harder than water they weren't STUPID enough to deliberately introduce into the attachment an element that failed at random to protect against lockouts and make the tows safer. Donnell hadn't yet arrived on the scene to replace ten year old kid common sense with the voodoo physics which the cult of hang gliding finds so attractive.
And truck towing wouldn't arrive on the scene for a dozen years after Manned Kiting. But you wouldn't know that 'cause you can't conceive that anything was ever the slightest bit different from what you found it when you first reared your ugly head at the Ridgely Douchebag Colony in 2002.
But anyway...
I'm having a REAL hard time understanding why you're perfectly OK with the statement that losing the line is the worst thing that can happen to you in surface while maintaining that in aero it's usually a good thing and - at absolute worst - no BFD.
Troll dol dol de dol, gently down the stream.
Merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream.
Yep, anybody who doesn't buy into the tenets of your religious cult is a troll.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/03 07:44:10 UTC
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
Indeed.
I wonder if Davis has yet figured out just how many times that quote's gonna be coming back at him. I'm predicting viral.
Tommy Thompson - 2011/09/03 11:36:28 UTC
Whitewater
IMO weaklink, rope brakes along with tug engine failures and airspace issues can happen every flight and shouldn't be a cause of stalls or whacks. what gives us an advantage during these events is the higher stall speed of the tug.
you can make your job easier by using basetube wheels.
Gotchya Tommy...
Weak link, towline, and engine failures and airspace issues are BAD things which CAN, but SHOULDN'T, be the 'cause of whacks or stalls (read injuries or fatalities) because all of them, with the possible exception of airspace issues, result in loss of airspeed which, along with basetube wheels, is a GOOD thing.
So can you think of any steps we mere humans could take to MINIMIZE the BAD things and MAXIMIZE the GOOD things?
Now if you put a loop of 130 pound Greenspot on the two point bridle of a minimally loaded Falcon 3 145 you get 1.4 Gs.
And the Flight Park Mafia is QUITE willing to endanger the smallest and most helpless of us with that figure - it's only the 300 pound gliders and up that they want to keep REALLY safe.
But USHGA, the FAA, the sailplane crowd, millions of hang glider comp pilots, and yours truly are pretty much THRILLED with it. Hell, even Russell Brown, who ALMOST DIED because of the 1.4 weak link I gave to Paul Tjaden, has figured out that it might be acceptable for gliders to use weak links capable of getting them off the ground once in a while - as long as you give him notice five business days in advance so he can make arrangements to sacrifice a goat to win God's favor for the day.
So can I put you down as being OK with as being OK with weak links 0.6 Gs under the USHGA limit - along with towline integrity, engine maintenance, and traffic checks - for everyone?
Eh, never mind. We're got a TRACK RECORD on gliders WITH 130 pound Greenspot and WITHOUT wheels. Better stick with the devils we know.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Richard Johnson was my tow instructor (Jan 1978)
The type of towing he was referring to was: Pop starts off of the beach, tow rope special ordered from Japan (3/8," diameter, 2,025 lbs breaking strength), no weak-link, towing bridle hooked only to a stainless steel control frame, climb rates of over 1,000'/min., where a rope break or premature release would put you into a loop. Don't read any more into his statement than that. It has absolutely no correlation to any of the kind of towing that is being done now days.
Pop starts off of the beach...
Instead of pop starts off of the backs of boats, trucks, and launch dollies we do today - at much higher (and safer) airspeeds.
2,025 lbs breaking strength...
WHOA!!! DUDE!!! Instead of the 2000 pound Spectra that's standard towline in ALL aerotow operations today?
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
10. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-B. Aero Vehicle Requirements
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line. The weak link at the glider end must have a breaking strength that will break before the towline tension exceeds twice the weight of the hang glider pilot and glider combination. The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 pounds greater than the glider end.
08. The tow line must be at least twice as strong as the weak link in use.
Tandem glider:
- five hundred pounds
Two G weak link:
- a thousand
Plus a hundred for the tug end:
- eleven hundred
Times two for the towline to be AT LEAST as strong as the weak link:
- two thousand if "the weak link" is the glider's
- twenty-two hundred if "the weak link" is the tug's
...no weak-link...
How many:
- HGMA certified gliders were you breaking?
- uncertifiable gliders were you breaking when you had someone halfway competent in the boat?
- gliders were you locking out and crashing that you wouldn't have had you been using a one G weak link? Or a loop of 130 pound Greenspot? Whichever's lowest.
...towing bridle hooked only to a stainless steel control frame...
Were the release actuators on the downtubes or basetubes?
...climb rates of over 1,000'/min...
So?
...where a rope break or premature release would put you into a loop.
Dave Broyles - 1992/07
...I saw a UP Dragonfly IIB tumble and break both leading edges after a weak link break-induced whip stall. I also saw a LEAF Talon perform an Immelmann because of a weak link break.
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.
The weak link breaking strength should be between 100% and 150% of the combined weight of the glider and pilot (the gross load) being towed, but each pilot should be totally responsible for his own weak link.
Bill Bryden - 1999/06
During the tug's roll-out for the second launch attempt, the tug pilot observed the glider clear the runway dust and then begin a left bank with no immediate correction. At that point he noticed that the launch cart was hanging below the glider and immediately released his end of the 240 foot towline. The tug never left the ground and tug pilot watched the glider continue a hard bank to the left achieving an altitude of approximately 25 feet. Impact was on the left wing and then the nose of the glider. Rob was killed immediately from severe neck and head trauma. Rob's body likely cushioned much of the student's impact.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver. I cleared the buildings, but came very close to the ground at the bottom of the wingover.
Analyzing my incident made me realize that had I released earlier I probably would have hit the ground at high speed at a steep angle. The result may have been similar to that of the pilot in Germany. However Neal kept me on line until I had enough ground clearance, and I believe he saved me from injury by doing so. I gave him a heart-felt thank you.
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8 G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
The best option seemed to be to resist the lockout and slowly bring the glider down, even if it was crooked, but another problem arose when the observer had the towline cut when I was down to about fifty feet.
I had no chance. The glider that had been hanging on like a kite dead leafed to the ground. The left leading edge hit first, destroying it along with the nose plates. My body's impact point was the left shoulder and the left side of my head and neck.
I remained unconscious for about twenty minutes with a bloody face from what poured from my nose. The chopper arrived about an hour after the crash. I was already semi-conscious but in a lot of pain and having trouble breathing. I was hauled to Stanford (about half an hour flight time).
The toll: fracture and crushing of the upper humerus, several broken ribs, a lung pierced and collapsed by one of them, and broken C1 vertebra right by the artery. They considered surgery, but the no-surgery risk was lower - they feared a chip would rupture the artery.
The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.
While TODAY a rope break or premature release will only put you into a dead leaf, Immelmann, wingover, unplanned SEMI loop, or whipstall.
Don't read any more into his statement than that.
Nah, it's NOTHING like it was in the bad old days before Donnell Hewett decided that a rope break or premature release was an unmitigated GOOD thing.
It has absolutely no correlation to any of the kind of towing that is being done now days.
Dennis Pagen - 1993/04
Next to a low stall and line break due to a gust, the event most likely to maim on tow...
NONE WHATSOEVER. We are now TOTALLY IMMUNE to the laws of physics.
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC
Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
Especially since USHGA and the Flight Park Mafia got their crash report suppression machinery properly geared up. That, 130 pound Greenspot, the bent pin release, and the ever vigilant Dragonfly driver have all combined to make towing MUCH safer than it ever could have hoped to be back then.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?
(Poynter had a successful book about parachuting, and in 1973 saw the nascent sport of hang gliding as another topic he could write about. His forte is how to write non-fiction books, not hang gliding, or even adventure sports in general. See "Writing Nonfiction. Turning Thoughts into Books," Dan Poynter, 2000.)
Hey Cragin... Just what this conversation needs - one more knuckle dragging semi literate shithead. Welcome aboard.
Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years?
- I totally missed the part where Rodent said anything remotely like that.
- What the fuck does somebody like YOU know about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding anyway?
Thanks, Tad. I was too green to fully appreciate your system when you showed it to me a couple of years ago. Now I'm more interested. Do I have to fabricate this myself from parts or are you in business?
Tad showed me the release system he installed in Hugh's glider. I was amazed at the quality and complexity of the system. Being able to tow and release without ever having to take your hands off the base tube is wonderful and much safer.
You and I met at the ECC a few years ago. We spent 45 minutes or more together going over your system. I saw it first hand. I was quite impressed with the quality of engineering and the time you spent on it.
Very nice engineering, Tad. I can see a lot of thought went into the systems and there is always room to "build a better mousetrap".
Every system we use in this sport can be improved on. Look where we progressed from since I first flew in '71.
I'll be lazy and ask if any of your references give a physical reason for the 0.8 to 2 g range they quote as safe. If not, constructing a reasonable physical argument could be a major contribution. You clearly have the physics down well enough (as good as anyone else in the world) to do so.
Let me begin by saying that I personally appreciate Tad Eareckson's efforts to improve the SOP of aerotowing as well as his suggestion to update the Skyting Criteria. It is through efforts like his that progress is made toward safer towing.
I thank him for keeping this issue before the hang gliding community.
- Name me one single solitary thing you've done in your entire ten points south of useless hang gliding career to advance the physics or engineering of hang gliding or understanding thereof one width of one mosquito antenna.
OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?
- Early? Three *plus* DECADES old!!! My GOD!!!
- And written by a NON-PILOT? When we've got Rooney to deliver God's Honest Truth!
- When we've got HIGH EXPERIENCE CURRENT INSTRUCTORS - all of them, of course, HIGHLY qualified in physics and engineering - to tell us how to push out in a lockout to actuate your instant 130 pound Greenspot hands free emergency release when your bent pin job welds itself shut.
- And it's GREAT that they're INVOLVED in the discussion - as long as they don't hafta answer any technical questions about the breaking strengths of their weak links or how those translate into Gs for various configurations.
(Poynter had a successful book about parachuting, and in 1973 saw the nascent sport of hang gliding as another topic he could write about. His forte is how to write non-fiction books, not hang gliding, or even adventure sports in general. See "Writing Nonfiction. Turning Thoughts into Books," Dan Poynter, 2000.)
Well that's all VERY interesting. So you've read The Skydivers' Handbook and Manned Kiting and can tell us all why his stuff was OK for its time but how our understanding of Newtonian physics has changed so much in the decades since that now he's full of shit.
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson, 1974
So Richard Johnson, a non-non-pilot and instructor, was full full of shit when he wrote that back in the Dark Ages.
"Next to a low stall and line break due to a gust, the event most likely to maim on tow is a lockout." - Dennis Pagen, 1993
And Dennis Pagen, another non-non-pilot and instructor instructor, was also full of shit when he wrote the same thing nineteen years later.
OK, let's hear God's Honest Truth from a high experience current instructor, someone with a keen intellect / knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and aerotowing in particular (in case anyone reading wants to know the one person's comments to whom he should give the most weight).
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
And let's here what some run of the mill, Ridgely "trained", waste of space douchebag has to say on the issue.
Cragin Shelton - 2001/08/08
NEVER TRUST A WEAK LINK!
Expect two things from your weak link:
(1) It will break unexpectedly at the most inopportune time, with no warning adn no indicaiton of a flight problem.
(2) It will hold strong and fast whenever you move into a lockout.
God's Special Little Messenger says that the weak link increases the safety of the towing operation and Richard Johnson, Dennis Pagen, and YOU are saying the PRECISE OPPOSITE.
So why don't you go fuck yourself and stay the hell out of conversations that require IQs in the double digit range or better to move the knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding first back to some of the ten year old kid common sense of 37 years ago and then forward from there?
Liberal use of fossil fuels, pesticides, factory trawlers, and third world slave labor combined with an unwavering faith in God and an absence of concern for sustainability and conscience in any form.
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.
- 130 pound Greenspot to eliminate any possibility of lockout because it's so light it blows at random;
Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out.
- well, any possibility of a lockout that will kill you from 250 feet and up anyway;
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.
- brake levers velcroed onto downtubes where you're safe - EXTREMELY SAFE - from inadvertent release - 'cause that's the job of the Greenspot;
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
- bent pin releases so you can easily connect them to 3/8 inch poly bridles without using weak links;
- quadruple strand Greenspot on the tandem gliders - and the solos who've informed Russell Brown - and triple on the Dragonfly...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01
I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
...on the top end of the bridle where, no matter what happens, the tug and its release will ALWAYS be safely protected from overload.
So we are talking about a breaking strength of 260lbs...
Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
OF COURSE we are. Quality controlled 130 pound test, two strands, knot hidden from the main tension and excluded altogether from the equation. Two times 130... What could be simpler?
Oh yeah... Add about a hundred pounds if you're planning on having a dangerous smooth gradual lockout and subtract about a hundred for a safe violent lockout in which the shock loading factor comes in to help you out. Or, if you wanna be REALLY safe in a violent lockout, just push the bar out and knock another hundred pounds off the weak link.
...for every one.
Because, if NOTHING ELSE, the Flight Park Mafia is FAIR. No discrimination whatsoever on the basis of race, creed, gender, or flying weight - just perverts and people with ten year old kid common sense who want equipment and procedure regulations adhered to for their safety.
I'd say that's about 1 -1.5 g for most pilots.
So would I. For a max T2 that's 0.7 and a min Falcon 3 145 1.6. Close enough.
Until you consider that it's on a BRIDLE END and do the math for one and two point. Then your extremes are 1.3 and 3.2. Still pretty close.
But if you actually TEST the Greenspot your extremes for the gliders and bridles are 0.6 and 1.6.
So hey, you can easily see that 130 pound Greenspot offers a HUGE selection of G ratings - no matter who you are or what you're flying you can find a number with which you'll be happy. And if all of those are too dangerous for you, hell, you can always find an old fuzzy sunbaked one that somebody tossed on the ground last season when he replaced it with a dangerous 260 pound new one.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up.
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
Goddam right they are - especially when the Oz Report Motherfucker In Chief is reaching for the Lock button as we speak.
You can't get week link in 5lb increaments so everyone is at 1.5g.
I think I'm beginning to understand why the thought of reading a twelve page document on aerotowing - or anything else - is so abhorrent to you. Oh well, try looking at the pictures then.
Dude go learn to fly a hang glider...it's much more interesting than trolling the web.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/04 09:12:59 UTC
So a loop of Greenspot fails at 260 lbs. Have you tested this hypothesis and found it to be accurate?
Dude, you might want to work on your math/logic skills.
Steve Davy - 2011/09/04 10:02:12 UTC
Dude go learn to fly a hang glider...
I learned to fly a hang glider in 1980, asshole.
I think Rooney's actually RIGHT about something for a change. I think this guy IS actually me. Same year I learned to fly a hang glider and an ABSOLUTELY UNCANNY similarity in writing style. I must have a Mister Hyde and Mister Hyde thing going on. I wonder if I'm having more fun on my other dark side.
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/04 10:38:07 UTC
I was trolling down the street one day.
In the very merry month of May.
I don't hear you saying anything about Rob's statement on the strength of a loop of 130. And I wouldn't expect you to 'cause that's what you were "taught" by Chad, Adam, and Sunny. Don't hear anything from the author of the 2007 Worlds rules either.
And, at about 2011/09/04 14:00 UTC with 131 posts and the click counter at about 6268, Davis - predictably - comes to the rescue of Jim and the rest of his fellow brain damaged shitheads with the Lock button and...
Sounds like everyone is in agreement.
...once again, peace and harmony reign supreme in The Happy Kingdom.
...with a single post and about 80 hits also gets the finger so the next time somebody buys the farm this way the discussion will be all about which is the best procedure to use five minutes before launch so that you can assume you're hooked in on launch.
Thanks, Rodent and Zack. We got some serious cracks going in that tower of evil, lies, incompetence, and stupidity that time. It's amazing how much damage just two guys with understandings of grade school math, science, and English can do to these bastards. That thread is now a bottomless gold mine of quotes that WILL come back to haunt these guys for the rest of their lives. I know it's gonna make a lot of my coming rainy days a lot less boring.
