instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/24 04:59:08 UTC

A TANDEM instructor writes:

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

Is that how it works? Is that what it says on the written test?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

Would you like to propose otherwise?

- How 'bout we try:

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.

Yes, in fact, this *is* how it works.

- So how come it *WASN'T* how it worked for Roy Messing - 2009/08/31? Did he not study physics as hard as you did in the course of qualifying for your AT ratings?

- Is that what it says on the written test?

- Then why not?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/24 04:59:08 UTC

You got the rope anyway.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

So what?

So this from the SOPs:

The weak link at the tow plane end of the towline should break with a towline tension approximately 100 pounds greater than the glider end.

is just a total waste of paper, nobody adheres to it anyway, and - besides - it's simply not an issue with respect to the safety of the TUG. So let's just get rid of it.

Besides...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

...you can always get your towline back after they remove the bodies and clear the wreckage.

We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.

Of course you are. 'Cause...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...whatever's going on back there, you can fix it by giving someone the rope and flying safely away with never the slightest scuff on YOUR nose.

Be nice and we can discuss it.
Be obnoxious and you can piss off.

Your choice.

And your buddy Davis is there with the Lock and Ban buttons to make sure you never hafta answer any embarrassing questions or to adhere to ANY rules of civilized academic discussion - so Rodent might as well piss off now.

Zack C - 2011/08/25 00:55:58 UTC

So what?

Ridgerodent addressed this one above. Not an issue at altitude, but near the ground...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3380
Lauren and Paul in Zapata

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/07/21 14:27:04 UTC

The tow rope weak link broke when Paul locked out and the weak link he got from Tad did not break. Russell said it was about the worst he has ever had his tail pulled around. Anyhow, I would advise against those weak links, though Tad's barrel releases do seem better able to release under stress. After Russell got a new rope and Paul recovered, he was late leaving and got trapped under some cirrus.

He flew about fifty miles until he got stuck by the airspace at Laredo.

They may not be a SAFETY issue at altitude but they're an expensive pain in the ass when you consider what's gone into getting where you wanna be on a good day (the kind when you're most likely to blow the tug's chintzy, noncompliant piece o' crap).

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

And we STILL haven't heard - either directly from Steve or indirectly through your lies and distortions - what was invalid about his 2005/02/09 statement on the issue. Shouldn't we assume that because the Quest weaklinks are the same as they've been since the beginning of time that his position regarding their purpose is unchanged?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/25 05:34:01 UTC

I have been trying to fault Tad's logic and so far been unsuccessful.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11192
Question

John Moody - 2010/09/21 03:30:45 UTC

Tad may be a bit zealous in his arguments, but I totally agree with his logic and historical evidence. I have seen many, many premature releases and weaklink breaks. The worst of which is the whip stall take-off - I have seen blood on the runway at Hearne and applied the bandages myself.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11361
Question

Zack C - 2010/10/15 13:25:50 UTC

Speaking of which, while I can fault Tad's approach, I can't fault his logic, nor have I seen anyone here try to refute it. You may not like the messenger, but that is no reason to reject the message.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:23:15 UTC

I was serious too... he sounds like Tad.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 06:25:28 UTC

Nope... drat... just a plain ole troll.
But, an outted troll.

He wasn't "outed", douchebag. He told you who he was. But I'm having a hard time understanding why it should matter.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

Anyway...
Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.

We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.

It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.

So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:22:00 UTC

The trouble is that people just absolutely refuse to accept answers they don't like.

I don't say "trust me" and move on.
But when I say "this is what we do and it works", I'm sick to death of hearing BUT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!!!!
Bullshit.

This thread started with just that... OH MY GOD!!!! I can't believe you're doing things this way!!!!!
To which my answer is... F you... we've been doing it this way for years... successfully.

Now, start the conversation differently, with actual questions, not "YOU MORONS!!!!" and then I'd agree with you.

I don't suffer fools lightly.
I also do not suffer armchair experts... lightly or otherwise.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.

See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.

You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.

Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?

We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.

It's not cuz we're somehow smarter... we're not.
It's cuz you're LATE!!!
We've just had tons more time at this.

So pardon me if I get a bit irritated at people telling me that I need to reconsider something from someone who's just now getting to something that we've been over a million freakin times already.

Have we explored everything?
No. Of course not.

BUT YOU"RE LATE!
Your ideas have already been hashed through.

This is why this is an affront to ego.
See, people don't like to hear that their special little idea has already been thrown out even before they bring it up.

But that's the gods honest truth.

This is what I'm talking about when I politely inform people that they're not going to be informing me about towing.
It's not that I think I'm "all that"... it's that I've spent more time discussing this shit with people that know what the hell they're talking about then you have time discussing anything about hang gliding at all.

You're late to the game.
Your special little idea's already been discussed... a long long time ago.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

Thought I already answered that one... instead of quoting myself (have a look back if you don't believe me), I'll just reiterate it.

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC

Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33

As I said, I've been through this a million freaking times.
Which is ok.
I don't mind clarifying it for people.

What I do mind is that when there is disagreement, it is generally NOT me that is wrong. Yet people persist in telling me bla bla bla. I don't care if people disagree with me... cuz I know they're wrong. It makes me sad.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC

Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Most people get this.
So I'm sorry for boring you with what you know already.
It just needs to be pointed out from time to time, especially when the old misconceptions start rearing their heads or when you've got people new to all this showing up.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/29 13:40:42 UTC

I said I'm sick to death of inexperienced people arguing with experienced people. It boggles my mind.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 02:16:16 UTC

They're not here cuz they don't feel like arguing all the time.
Most of the other people "in the business" don't come here cuz it turns into a shouting match too often.

Look how uppity people got when I even termed people "in the business" "professional pilots".
It's accurate, but some got all offended. They couldn't stand that someone doesn't see their uninformed opinion as holding as much weight as an informed one.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/30 03:20:19 UTC

The poster has already made up their mind... with a limited background... and is now challenging SOPs of very experienced people and a long vetted process.

So yeah, I feel the response of "well, what the F do you know?" to be rather appropriate.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Gimme a call when you think of something that we haven't already been through years ago... cuz to date, you have yet to come up with anything new. Well, maybe it's new to you I guess. It's old as dirt to me though.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 19:49:08 UTC

This is going to be a bit harsh, but I honestly don't care what you think.
You're not the one making the decisions here.
See if you can convince a tug pilot to tow you, with whatever gear you like, then you're sweet.
But we're the ones you need to convince, not the other way around.
So if anyone's trying to "sway" anyone, you need to convince me.
And like I said, I'm over it.

One day, through the primeval wood,
A calf walked home, as good calves should;

But made a trail all bent askew,
A crooked trail as all calves do.
Since then three hundred years have fled,
And, I infer, the calf is dead.
But still he left behind his trail,
And thereby hangs my moral tale.
The trail was taken up next day,
By a lone dog that passed that way.
And then a wise bell-wether sheep,
Pursued the trail o'er vale and steep;
And drew the flock behind him too,
As good bell-wethers always do.
And from that day, o'er hill and glade.
Through those old woods a path was made.

And many men wound in and out,
And dodged, and turned, and bent about;
And uttered words of righteous wrath,
Because 'twas such a crooked path.
But still they followed - do not laugh -
The first migrations of that calf.
And through this winding wood-way stalked,
Because he wobbled when he walked.

This forest path became a lane,
that bent, and turned, and turned again.
This crooked lane became a road,
Where many a poor horse with his load,
Toiled on beneath the burning sun,
And traveled some three miles in one.
And thus a century and a half,
They trod the footsteps of that calf.

The years passed on in swiftness fleet,
The road became a village street;
And this, before men were aware,
A city's crowded thoroughfare;
And soon the central street was this,
Of a renowned metropolis;
And men two centuries and a half,
Trod in the footsteps of that calf.

Each day a hundred thousand rout,
Followed the zigzag calf about;
And o'er his crooked journey went,
The traffic of a continent.
A Hundred thousand men were led,
By one calf near three centuries dead.
They followed still his crooked way,
And lost one hundred years a day;
For thus such reverence is lent,
To well established precedent.

A moral lesson this might teach,
Were I ordained and called to preach;
For men are prone to go it blind,
Along the calf-paths of the mind;
And work away from sun to sun,
To do what other men have done.
They follow in the beaten track,
And out and in, and forth and back,
And still their devious course pursue,
To keep the path that others do.
They keep the path a sacred groove,
Along which all their lives they move.
But how the wise old wood gods laugh,
Who saw the first primeval calf!
Ah! many things this tale might teach -
But I am not ordained to preach.

The Calf Path - 1895
Sam Walter Foss - 1858-1911

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/01/29 19:01:47 UTC

We've been towing for years. We worked this shit out a long time ago.
You either follow the well worn path or you take your own.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity.

Good thing.

[Steve Davy]

Wow, that is beautiful.
Thanks for that.

[Zack C]

Since the thread is locked I PMed Jim about the Jeremiah/Arlan incident. His response:

the glider was just being pulled through the air in a stalled position, and they were trying to push out to get back into position behind the tow plane which slowed them down even more, the weak link broke, they didnt have enough airspeed to fly safely yet, and then a whip stall.

This is a good description of a low lockout.

It's a very dangerous situation, and make no mistake, if the line had held, it would not only be a dangerous situation for the glider, but also the tug. Gliders do not react well to being on tow and not flying... adding power to the situation (pushing out and the tug pushing over) only makes things worse... it gets very violent, very fast. I'll dump the rope long before that.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Steve,

You're more than welcome.

And I hope you meant mostly about the poem as a counterpoint to the hundreds of times God's Special Little Messenger is informing us of how sick he is of telling all the peons millions of times that the Miracle String which makes it impossible for gliders over 225 pounds to get more than twenty feet off the ground more than every other tow is optimizing their safety and is the end result of twenty years of meticulous scientific experimentation and professional scrutiny at the highest levels.

And I hope everybody noticed the marvelously dovetailing 2011/01/29 quote I found after first posting and tacked onto the end. It doesn't get much better than that.

But the:

Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity.

quote is pretty damn good - even without the mega-ironic spelling.

"What I AM advocating is that we professionals fail a lot. You don't pay us anywhere NEAR enough for us to do our jobs right."

Don't worry Jim, you guys have that covered in spades.

Gotta credit Garrison Keillor - 2007/06/11 Writer's Almanac - for turning me on to the poem. When I heard it I couldn't believe it was written almost a century before the advent of the Dragonfly and widespread aerotowing.

Zack,

And in response to that double fatality - and a couple other not dissimilar doubles before it (my emphases)...

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1

HG Tandem Aerotow Operations
Date of Notice: 2006/03/15

It was noticed over a number of years there have been a number of fatalities to participants in hang glider aerotow instruction. The president of the USHPA, therefore, formed an Ad Hoc Joint Committee of the chairs of Safety and Training, Tandem and Towing to investigate this, appointing the Chair of Safety and Training to preside. Tandem instructors, Matt Taber and David Glover were invited to participate.

...

This issue is so important that this committee and the towing committee have recommended that the following message be sent to all aerotow pilots and all Aero-Tug pilots with a particular emphasis to aerotow tandem pilots.

Seems like that should've covered God's Special Little Messenger on three levels at the time.

Experiences in hang glider tandem flight using aero-tow launch along with analysis of accidents and incidents that have occurred during such flight strongly suggest, for safety reasons, the following cautions be observed.

If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 ft.) The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

Towing tandems requires extra awareness on the part of the tug pilots, particularly in the early part of the tow to help the tandem pilot avoid the development of critical situations. Prior to the start of the tow, proper tow speeds based on the gross weight of the tandem glider should be determined. Greater total weight will require correspondingly higher tow speeds. It is CRITICAL to understand that the towed hang glider is at risk when the tow is slow and the glider is low. When towing a tandem glider, the tug pilot should fly the appropriate airspeed to keep the tandem glider in the proper position and if there is any doubt the tug pilot should fly slightly faster and avoid flying slightly slow. The tug pilot should avoid pulling up abruptly and leaving the tandem glider low. If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider, releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.

***

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

But, of course, whenever Steve Kroop puts his name to anything what he really means is "Whatever Rooney says and 130 pound Greenspot for everyone forever."

This is a good description of a low lockout.

Of course it is. Ever since Donnell Hewett published his Skyting articles in 1981...

- anything remotely resembling a stall as a consequence of losing the line ceased to exist;

- everything written in Manned Kiting became obsolete and irrelevant (just ask Cragin The Applied Physicist);

- the ONLY problem you can have on tow is lockout; and

- if ANYONE ever uses ANYTHING twenty or more pounds heavier than 130 pound Greenspot he will IMMEDIATELY lock out and die because it's impossible to design a release that can both be accessed and expected to work in a lockout.

It's a very dangerous situation, and make no mistake, if the line had held, it would not only be a dangerous situation for the glider...

Well, good thing it blew then - so the period of danger to the glider was minimized to just three or four seconds.

...but also the tug.

MY GOD!!! NOT THE TUG!!!!!

Sure is a good thing his weak link blew 'cause the poor fellow just had NO IDEA how BADLY STALLED he was! As evidenced by his failure to get the nose down and pick up the requisite speed at any point in the entire tow. He must've been terrified when somebody pointed this out when reviewing the video. I hope that Jeremiah's family had the decency to pay for the counseling he needed when he realized just how close to the brink he'd come.

Gliders do not react well to being on tow and not flying...

Yeah, what they REALLY react well to is being abruptly dumped OFF tow when they're not flying.

...adding power to the situation (pushing out and the tug pushing over) only makes things worse...

If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider...

No no NO! That would just make things worse. You might get going so fast that if you got hit in the face by a bug you'd get a nasty owie.

...it gets very violent, very fast.

Especially if it's one of those big beetles with the triceratops horns.

I'll dump the rope long before that.

...releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.

Or, if it floats your boat, only as a FIRST resort. 'Cause, hey, this is hang gliding...

Understand that we are not asking if you agree with the safety notice, but that you have read it and understand what it says.

...it's all...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.

...opinion based aviation, and...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...you can do whatever the fuck you want without ever having to answer to anyone for anything 'cause Adam will write the fatality report. And Hang Glide Chicago and THAT tug driver got away with it, right?

So Zack, what do you think about the people who "qualified" this asshole and how enthusiastic do you think you'd be about flying at Ridgely, Manquin, or Quest?

This is about the most damning statement I've ever heard anyone in hang gliding ever make and hopefully it'll come back to haunt some people - I would SO LOVE to hear it read on Sixty Minutes. Good work.

P.S. Since you had fairly direct contact with Jim you might wanna consider burning your computer - or at least soaking it in bleach for an hour or so.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/07/29 15:16:29 UTC

When I retrieved the rope and bridle after the flight, I was shocked at how profoundly the line had wrapped around the 'biner. I have heard about the line being able to wrap, but in thousands of aerotows I have never experienced it. I thought readers might be interested to see actually happens.

Secondly, although the weak link wasn't tremendously large, in retrospect in could have been smaller. Apparently the longer the weak link the greater its propensity to wrap.

Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC

Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years and I can say that the steel ring, polished or not, has a greater tendency to wrap than the small aluminum carabiners.

Yeah Paul, you tireless professionals have figured out that a two and a half inch weak link protrusion is less less likely to wrap on a small aluminum carabiner than it is on a polished steel ring. Good job.

Have you also figured out that you're better off locked out with a jammed bent pin release fifty feet over a hot asphalt runway than a cold concrete one?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/23 08:19:57 UTC

Is this how far we have come?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/25 04:12:33 UTC

An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from
My response would be - "Thanks for letting us know that we have to be careful about how long our weaklinks are".
All the other crap you (ridgerodent) wrote is just noise.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

And, as Antoine immediately pointed out...

http://www.willswing.com/articles/ArticleList.asp#AerotowRelease
Wills Wing Support

Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. Longer weak links are more likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release.

There's no date on the article but Rob died three years prior to Lauren's amazing revelation.

Please do not attempt to aerotow any glider without first receiving instruction from a qualified aerotow instructor.

Define "qualified" Rob. Do Lauren and Jim count?

Oh, right. Lauren is EMINENTLY qualified and Jim's universally recognized to be at the top of the field. And people who are concerned with stuff like theory, numbers, logic, and what was written - by non pilots - in 1974 are full of shit. So I guess we're good to go.

[Tad Eareckson]

Now watch this, kids...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Plain and simple. Janni, 1G.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/28 07:03:15 UTC

Dynamic Flight - 2005

The purpose of a weak link is solely to prevent the tow force from increasing to a point that the glider can be stressed close to or beyond its structural limits. Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10 G positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure. It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 08:34:12 UTC

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.
So they can stuff their philosophical purity bs... cuz I have no desire to tow someone to their death, no matter how willing they may be.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/25 19:21:57 UTC

Plain and simple. Janni, 1G.

We've established that 1.0 Gs is the perfect weak link for preventing structural failure and protecting people from the ravages of lockouts.

Dynamic Flight says that...

Lockouts can and do occur without increasing tow tension up until the point where the glider is radically diverging from the direction of tow. At this point tension rises dramatically...

Which God's Special Little Messenger pronounces to be...

Yeah, I've read that drivel before.
It's a load of shit.

...drivel and a load of shit - EXCEPT...

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

...when God's Special Little Messenger says THE EXACT SAME THING.

Dynamic Flight then goes on to say...

...and something will give - preferably the weak link. Given that a certified glider will take 6-10 G positive a 1.5 G weak link as opposed to a standard 1 G weak link should not significantly increase the risk of structural failure.

...and one wonders just how much longer than a nice safe ideal 1.0 G weak link God's Special Little Messenger expects a deadly (for heavier gliders) 1.5 G weak link will hold when the tension is rapidly and furiously heading from one times normal to sixteen times normal (whatever normal is - we never bothered to measure it).

It will however significantly decrease the probability of an unwanted weak link break.

Oh well...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hhpa/message/11155
Question

Shane Nestle - 2010/09/17 22:17:50 UTC

So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.

...God's Special Little Messenger is probably right. It's the UNWANTED weak link breaks that are really padding our safety margins.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

One of the biggest bits that seems to be under appreciated is the bit that weaklinks break under shock loading.
They can take a hell of a lot more force if they're loaded slowly... which is exactly what happens in a lockout.

Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC

Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

See, we're not confused.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.

Meaning that virtually all longtime aerotow pilots flying today owe their lives to the timely failure of a loop of 130 pound Greenspot at some critical point in their flying careers.

So let's start a poll.

Myself?
- Nope.
Have I ever been in a lockout in which I couldn't or didn't easily beat the weak link with my release?
- Nope. (And yeah, I HAVE been in a couple of violent lockouts.)
Have I ever broken a downtube that I wouldn't have had not the Greenspot blown when I was straight and level?
- Yep.
Have I ever broken a downtube that I wouldn't have had not the driver made a good decision in the interest of my safety when I was straight and level and dumped me?
- Yep.
Have I ever seen anyone break a downtube that he wouldn't have had not the Greenspot blown when he was straight and level?
- A couple of times.
Have I ever seen anyone benefit from a weak link failure?
- Nope.
Have I ever seen or heard of a low level lockout at Ridgely that wasn't pilot induced (read Hang Two avoidable)?
- Nope.
Did the safe defusing of that situation have anything do with the Greenspot?
- Nope.
Have I ever had a tow on 130 pound Greenspot during which I wasn't worrying about it blowing the entire way up?
- Nope.
Have I ever had good flying days ruined by totally unnecessary Greenspot blows?
- Yep.