And some of us are really hoping this doesn't get processed.skyelevator - 2015/03/29 17:44:16 UTC
Pacific Northwest
I am just kinda processing this as a lot of us are.
I was telling someone very recently about Kelly and I throwing shakas at each other as we passed close flying along the Big Island coast. We both bought mosquitos to get some airtime over there and he helped me get trained to fly mine by standing start towing on dry lake beds in CA and NV. Absolutely superb human being.
Thank you for your service and sacrifice. If only we had had more pilots with your selfless dedication to safety we could put tragedies like this one behind us for all time. You've inspired me to go to the fridge and grab another beer. I'd like to take a flight but all the ride factories in this neck of the woods are too concerned about the safety of their people of varying ages.Alan Paylor - 2015/03/30 00:23:26 UTC
Moore, Idaho
King Mountain Homage
Flew King Mountain today.. Paid homage. Gave thanks. Top landed at lower. Third flight this year. No xc. 9hrs+ total airtime. Cold. Over 14k many times..........2015
Paid homage. Let me here yours.
Alan
Fly safe, go far
Davis Straub - 2015/03/30 13:04:37 UTCBy whom?Harold Wickham - 2015/03/29 04:44:48 UTC
The accident is being thoroughly investigated...
Dedicated individuals so painstakingly meticulous that...Tad Eareckson - 2015/03/29 16:19:50 UTCBy whom?Harold Wickham - 2015/03/29 04:44:48 UTC
The accident is being thoroughly investigated...
...only the youngest of those of us involved in this discussion are likely to survive long enough to hear the findings.Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC
ND's onto it.
No one ever wants to wait for the accident investigation... they want to know "NOW DAMNIT!" and there's always a lot of self-serving arguments surrounding it.
And it's always the same.
The same damn arguments get drug up every time. And they're all just as pointless every time.
We have a system in place.
It works.
Let it work.
Our procedures are well established at this point in time and there are no gaping hidden holes that need to be addressed immediately.
RR asked what the status was.
ND's provided the answer (thank you).
Please take a deep breath. And wait.
Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)
The sky is not falling.
What? Brad having thoughts and praying?Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 15:49:45 UTCCan you please elaborate on this?Brad Barkley - 2015/03/29 03:14:17 UTC
I had the same thought, as I have done much of my flying truck towing at Blue Sky. If you are on tow and the truck turns and stops, it seems like it would be a nonissue. But after reading the thread elsewhere on this site, it sounds like it was a simulator on the back of the truck, not an actual truck towing flight. What a tragedy. Thoughts and prayers for all involved.
Great job doing your homework and having a fuckin' clue what’s going on.Perhaps submit a photo or drawing of the said apparatus?
http://www.jrn.com/ktnv/news/Family-of-young-hang-gliding-victim-speaks-out-to-Action-News-297947771.htmlSteve Morris - 2015/03/30 16:43:18 UTC
This news story gives a different take on the events:
http://www.jrn.com/ktnv/news/Family-of-young-hang-gliding-victim-speaks-out-to-Action-News-297947771.html
Family of young hang gliding victim speaks out to Action News - http://www.ktnv.com
Created? Looks like we're making progress on getting a good story out.Elizabeth Gadley. CREATED 2015/03/29
Then why don't they call it the Sloan Dry Lake Bed?Las Vegas, NV (KTNV) -- The family of the 11-year-old boy killed in a hang gliding accident on Friday spoke out to Action News.
It happened in the Jean Dry Lake Bed east of State Route 604, near Sloan.
...still giddy from their introductory hang gliding student experience...The boy's family is already back home in New Mexico...
Good......so they shared their story with Action News via Skype on Sunday.
Family members said, in a lot of ways, this is all still very surreal but they say sharing and talking about 11-year-old Arys helps.
They said he was a sweet and adventurous boy...
Sorry. I'm not a fan of hang gliding for people who wanna do something new and different. This is a form of aviation for individuals who started dreaming about flying like a bird at around age two....with a smile that could light up a room.
Family members said they come to Las Vegas every year while visiting grandparents in Pahrump and they always try to do something new and different.
Reminds me of working at the Kitty Hawk Kites ride factory. "OK, we've done hang gliding. Now on to the water slide!"The family was on Fremont Street the night before the accident and his brothers went zip-lining but Arys wasn't old enough.
- Yes the "tether" "connecting" the glider to the truck. You can tell these hang gliding "students" were really well prepared for their instructional flights in the ground school session.So when it came time to hang glide, Arys was eager to go first, so they let him.
Family members said everything was going smoothly until they noticed there was too much slack on the tether connecting the glider to the truck.
And here I was thinking that all hang glider towing problems are fixed by the driver giving the glider the rope.They said the driver sped up to fix the problem...
Things went wrong when the FAA granted hang gliding a tandem exemption for "instructional" flights....and that's when things went wrong.
- Sorry victim's - I mean STUDENT's - brother... When you yank a level glider it doesn't plummet to the ground headfirst. It does the precise opposite. Just ask Zack Marzec."As the driver increased in speed, it yanked the glider and the glider plummeted to the ground headfirst and me, my brother, my mother and my grandmother watched it as it plummeted to the ground and we raced to the crash site," said the victim's brother.
The pair of hang gliders were in the air when the truck pulling the glider turned around abruptly, police said. The driver of the truck thought the tether had been released, as is usually done by the person in the glider.
I hate when that happens when you're instructing.Family members tried CPR but Arys died a short time later, as did the hang gliding instructor.
According to the coroner, both Arys Moorhead and his instructor, John Kelly Harrison, died from blunt force injuries.
- End of any debate about whether this was a simulator run or platform tow. Bit of a stretch to suggest that the family watched the glider plummet to the ground from simulator position.Corbin Moorhead - 2015/03/29
victim's brother
Me, my mother, my brother, and my grandma watched it as it plummeted to the ground and we raced to the crash site.
The fire truck put the AED (Automated External Defibrillator) on him and that's where he... they declared Arys dead.
Well, they WERE skydiving but I don't believe Kelly was a skydiving instructor. And if he was I don't think he was a very good one because it's always been my understanding that at some point in the exercise prior to reaching the surface there's a parachute that's supposed to come out.Michelle Schneider - 2015/03/29
victim's mom
And I believe that the skydiving instructor...
So what do you believe in your head? I'm pretty sure that comfort wasn't a big issue in this one from the point that the glider started going down....did everything he possibly could to make it comfortable for Arys in his last moments. I believe that in my heart.
Well yeah, but that's just speculation which is adding to your and the skydiving instructor's family's pain and grief. It's disgusting and you need to stop.Michelle Schneider - 2015/03/29
And I believe that the skydiving instructor did everything he possibly could to make it comfortable for Arys in his last moments. I believe that in my heart.
Now we have something that's making sense.Nathan O'Neal
noneal@mynews3.com
LAS VEGAS (KSNV My News 3) -- The 11-year-old New Mexico boy killed in a hang glider accident Friday afternoon was eager to take to the skies.
In a Skype interview Sunday from their home in Farmington, N.M., family members said Arys Moorhead volunteered to go first at the dry lake bed south of Jean.
Flying in tandem with instructor John "Kelly" Harrison, Arys was being pulled behind a modified pickup truck.
The brief moments of trying to catch flight turned horribly bad in just seconds. "The truck took a turn ... the turn caused a little bit of slack in the line ... and when the slack came out of the line it yanked the glider and caused the glider to stall and nose dive into the ground," Corbin Moorhead said.
Harrison died at the scene shortly after impact. Arys was transported toward Las Vegas in a desperate attempt to get medical help, but he died from his injuries about 8 miles north of the crash site, at least 20 minutes from the nearest hospital.
The family doesn't want to think about the "what ifs."
Metro investigators are trying to determine what caused the crash. The Federal Aviation Administration also has been notified.
Did you read or hear something 'bout a turn, Rodie? If so, any chance you could share it with the rest of us non tug pilot muppets?Jim Gaar - 2015/03/30 16:58:35 UTC
Sure sounds like a lock out down low...
Good. Us don't deserve to have end well for us.Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 17:42:41 UTC
This is not going to end well for us...
Why are you asking what those assholes "THINK". Do your homework.Alex33 - 2015/03/30 17:57:20 UTC
France
you think it is on the simulator or a flight with a payout winch ?
SOMETHING's very clear. None of the local motherfuckers will even so much as confirm that this was a platform tow and not a simulator run - or even so much as tell us anything that DIDN'T happen. That fact alone screams volumes.Jim Gaar - 2015/03/30 18:24:49 UTC
All the accident pictures show the simulator (with the square steel control box) but the description I read from an article interviewing the family of the 11 year old seems to indicate they were on a "tether".
Nothing is very clear for now.
The fuckin' frame which limits the position of the glider in the simulator setup is.Jonathan Boarini - 2015/03/30 19:49:41 UTC
I was told that his simulator is always on the truck as well.
Doesn't mean...I thought the same as you but the presence of that square does not necessarily mean the simulator was used.
Thank you so very much, fellow Vegas skydiving instructors.I understand he was platform towing, but you're right, there's been very little useful information.
I've got a funny feeling that lotsa people will know who was driving the truck before this thing is over.What I want to know is, who was driving the truck??? I think that the answer lies somewhere in the answer to that question.
I'm sure he's taking his much needed rest as we speak.Terry Strahl - 2015/03/30 19:56:02 UTC
Rest in peace young man.
Notice any other really amazing issues regarding that piece?What is really amazing is the families resolve, Re: The news clip posted by Steve.
http://www.jrn.com/ktnv/news/Family-of-young-hang-gliding-victim-speaks-out-to-Action-News-297947771.html
Family of young hang gliding victim speaks out to Action News - http://www.ktnv.com
They don't think it was ANYBODY's fault. They think that sometimes shit just happens in skydiving and there's really nothing anybody can do about anything.The family said several times they do not think it was the pilots fault and placed no blame on him.
How ya like the speculation in this one?Lets all save the speculation for a different thread.
Don't worry - they're fine.RIP Arys and Kelly
The one currently running over at http://www.jim-keen-intellect-rooney.com. They're speculating that Kelly was using a funky shit release and a Tad-O-Link.zamuro - 2015/03/30 21:30:08 UTC
Which different thread?
Fuck that. They didn't invent a new way to crash a glider that there's something to learn from and you totally useless motherfuckers have never done anything but piss all over obvious and easy fixes handed to you before and after all previous catastrophes.It is a terrible tragedy and like most I feel very sorry for the families involved but like with any accident we also want to know what went wrong to avoid future accidents.
Why does it hafta be from THAT thoroughly intellectually castrated forum?If somebody in this forum...
The WHAT?...has any info related to what may have caused the accident...
Sharing anything useful in that shit heap is a good way to get banned....IMHO there is not reason not to share it here.
Fuck that. Speculation threads belong in The Basement - not Incident Reports.Rolla Manning - 2015/03/30 21:33:12 UTC
Las Vegas
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
BECAUSE these ass covering motherfuckers are sitting on the facts like their lives depended on it - which they probably do.Aldpal - 2015/03/30 22:13:05 UTC
Too Early?
This incident happened on Friday, three days ago, and there are already 28 posts here and more on a second thread here, mostly speculating on what happened, or what could have been done different, despite there not being a lot facts available.
People go to a forum like that to jerk each other off while making sure that nobody ever learns anything.That is the nature of a forum like this where most of us come to learn and or hopefully help teach a thing or two that will make us all safer.
Not so well respected and loved that you can spell his name right.Kelley was a well respected and loved pilot...
WAY beyond now....known in SoCal, Nevada, Hawaii, and beyond...
If he were REALLY a talented and safety minded friend he'd have equipped himself with a release that cost more than two percent of what his parachute did - even if he was a skydiving instructor....but for those of us that knew him this is not an isloated case study. I welcome hearing any additional facts, because I want to know how this could have happened to such a talented and safety minded pilot and friend...
The facts are available. It's just that the local cult members are making sure nothing's made available to anyone who matters....but speculating on things before the facts are available...
Not nearly as productive as not speculating and jerking each other off....is not productive...
Tough fucking shit. This guy just killed an eleven year old kid - along with himself. If I were one of the others who'd known him I wouldn't be beating my chest with pride right now....and I am sure not appreciated by others who knew him.
Fuck that. An hour would've been plenty of time for the facts to come out if that's what the guilty parties had wanted to happen. The longer it takes for insiders to get the facts out the more certain we can be that they're not facts.Please give this a little time for the facts to come out...
Go fuck yourself....and then if his loss has lessons that may help the safety of others, than by all means let's discuss them and learn from them.
RIP my friend, and condolences to the boy and his family
Yeah Terry. That's what he said and that's just how he wrote it. Great job starting off this thread and setting the tone for careful analysis of available information a likely scenarios.Terry Strahl - 2015/03/30 20:01:31 UTC
The witnessing family member said " the truck speed up to take the slack out of the town line" Yanking the glider too the ground.
May not have met their expectation of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence?Weak link ?
Any way we look at this your ass was socially promoted from about third grade on.or the tow line rapped around something ?
Any way we look at it tragic
Yeah, no fuckin' way could that structural failure have resulted from contact with the surface.Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 20:33:35 UTC
Something apeared overstressed. The picture of the wreckage showed the wings were folded in such a manor that would indicate structural failure from positive G load, which in that instance, would expain the glider coming down in a nose down attitude.
Wish he'd take his fake birth certificate to get a passport and go back to Africa.gluesniffer - 2015/03/30 22:16:25 UTC
Obviously Obama
Big surprise.Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC
Please, no speculation
Which...Hi folks,
...folks, Mark. Not all glider people are allowed to discuss things over there.No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
How could you POSSIBLY understand the interest in learning the cause of this? You've never had any first hand experience with being interested in learning the cause of anything.I understand the interest in learning the cause of this...
I'm totally cool with that. I'm gonna be over here on this other forum speculating my ass off....but could we please not speculate on the forum?
We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley)...
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16975005972_c450d2cdda_o.pngMitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
Cover-up....headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321...and when we learn what really happened we'll...
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC
Here's how it really works:
- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.
- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.
The whole procedure is outlined in SOP 03-16, which you can read by logging into the USHPA website and clicking on "Policy Manual".
Suck my dick, Mark....convey that information to our members.
...skydiving...He'll be working with two of the local...
And then how long will he be working with two of the local skydiving instructors to......instructors there to get to the truth.
...make it totally unrecognizable?Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC
In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.
In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.
The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?
Yeah, we certainly wouldn't wanna come up with any ideas that could keep another skydiving instructor and eleven year old student from getting killed in the meantime.Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on.
...scared shitless, getting their stories straight, digging in for the siege...Emotions are raw, people are hurting...
And INFORMED speculation is fifty times worse so make sure you don't inform anything about anything....and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody.
Well fuck, if that's all the problem is I'd be more than happy to work with a few them so's they can have a really great idea how our sport works and what's typical.News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Sure Mark. Don't mention it.Thanks for your understanding and patience.
I dunno. He's doing a pretty good job of fucking Bob over. Give him the benefit of the doubt.Davis Straub - 2015/03/30 23:49:31 UTC
Why do I not feel reassured by Mark's request for patience?
I frankly don't think Mitch is up to handling this all by himself. When you're dealing with a catastrophe of this magnitude...Because I have only a small amount of trust that the USHPA will release the results of Mitch's investigation in a timely fashion (say within a month).
...why not have the Best of the Best leading the team?Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
Kinda like the glider at the heart of this one...If past experience is any guide, it may turn out that the results of the investigation are never released.
Lawsuits and all.
Yeah, like when hell freezes over.I would love to be shown that I am mistaken (something that happens quite frequently).
Yeah, move it to The Basement - which is where I told ya to put it in the first place.Terry Strahl - 2015/03/31 00:01:35 UTC
Ok, then vote to bury.
Or...Then when you are done with that lets stop every other member of this forum from posting anything related to an accident period with out all the facts.
...just any discussion of accidents since one of the stated goals of that site is to promote skydiving.Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC
One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.
Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.
Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.
Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE
Fuck that. You can't have an open dialog about safety and better ways to address accidents without all the u$hPa Facts available to you.Never mind the chance to open dialog about safety and betters ways to address them.
Oh. Ten of them were pronounced dead somewhat prematurely?Some examples of recent. 140 people were killed in a airliner.
Might have been a shorter conversation if the motherfucker had posted the video like he said he would after people had sent him enough money.No facts and hours after the airbus went down thousands of views and 3 pages of dialog.
How about Hang53 when he got hurt on tow and almost lost his life. Did any one step in and stop the conversation ? 21 pages
And...Rotor, when he splashed down at Dunlap. How many pages, was anything learned about depth perception and standing still clear water ?
Motherfucker's problem was that he failed to ever once in his entire useless existence perform a hook-in check. But he had a great and very long track record while it lasted.The tandem instructor/ pilot who failed to hook in his passenger...
Nah, that was something he succeeded at. And that's the ONLY reason that Kelly/Arys is a somewhat distant second in world hang gliding catastrophes - even though this one killed twice as many people....and then tried to eat the SD card from the camera.
Come over here then. Jack and Davis aren't the only glider forums on the planet - much as they'd have you believe otherwise.I give up ...
Not many since michael170 was banned for enough already.Yes, please bury this topic.
How many lessons learned or follow up official reports have you seen on this site?
Or been forced to.No wonder a lot of pilots have given up on posting.
Ya think?Yes they all still lurk ..
Up asses.Please Vote to bury away ... nothing to see here folks. places head back in sand
I'll take my chances, douchebag. If my speculation without the facts gets one of you assholes killed I'll just hafta figure out some way to live with myself.Paul Hurless - 2015/03/31 00:12:10 UTC
Discussing the facts of an incident is very useful for many reasons. Speculating without the facts is useless and possibly even detrimental.
2015/03/31 01:43:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2015/03/31 17:29:09 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jason Boehm
Don't you just love it the way disingenuous motherfuckers have almost always said stuff before?Brian Scharp - 2015/03/31 00:22:27 UTCThis might help explain your feelings.Davis Straub - 2015/03/30 23:49:31 UTC
Why do I not feel reassured by Mark's request for patience...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meetingMark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC
Here's how it really works...
Well thanks Davis! If only Kelly and Arys had known that they should've gotten their legs under them when they landed they'd have almost certainly been OK! Ditto for Zack Marzec. We learn and move on.Davis Straub - 2015/03/31 00:36:49 UTC
Timely accident report here (pilot's name not mentioned):
http://ozreport.com/19.63#5
Get your legs under you
On The Jack Show? Good freakin' luck.zamuro - 2015/03/31 01:59:00 UTC
Maybe is only me but I feel that I can do a reasonable job at forming my own opinion about what happened based on available facts and the overall discussion. This includes filtering out whacky ideas...
As per u$hPa SOPs....but I don't mind seeing them if the alternative is not getting any fact or hypothesis at all.
Fuck you, dude. Either do Official u$hPa Facts or shut the hell up. What do you think you're paying dues for?It seems that facts need not to be public for legal* or other reasons so it always going to be speculation based on the few facts available. Even the ones doing the investigation may have an incomplete list of facts so the best they could do is to give a best (speculation) case scenario.
Don't:Fatality Reports
2013/02/02 - Zack Marzec
Zack Marzec (27), an H-4 Pilot with Aero Tow and Tandem Aero Tow proficiency as well as Advanced Instructor and Tandem Instructor appointments, and a USHPA member since 2009, suffered fatal injuries when when his glider tumbled during an aero tow launch. During the launch, at an altitude of 150 AGL, the pilot encountered an invisible bullet thermal which pitched the nose up, causing the weak link to break. Upon the breakage of the weak link, the glider whip stalled and then tumbled twice. The pilot and glider's leading edge hit the ground simultaneously. The pilot was utilizing his own pro-tow style tow harness, this own high performance glider with VG on, and was not wearing a full face helmet.
That's OK. Just trust u$hPa's and do everything he tells you to. You'll be fine.*
It is also hard for me to understand why anything posted in this forum in particular would have any legal consequence if you can always say that it was some non-official random BS posted by an anonymous user. I am not a lawyer though.
Me too, Mark. Whenever anybody who has a law degree advises me to do something I do it without hesitation. Whenever I'm trying to decide what kind of fishing line I'd be happy with as the focal point of my safe towing system I think, "What would Tim Herr be happiest with?" And it always brings me back to tried and true 130 pound Greenspot.Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/31 03:10:32 UTC
I'm not either, so I rely on the advice I get from people who are.
OUTRAGEOUS! The tried and true Official u$hPa / Tim Herr strategy is that NOBODY present at launch has a duty to prevent a launched-unhooked fatal accident! Damned if I'm gonna bow to any of that nanny state bullshit. It's been established and well understood for decades that "self regulated" is one hundred percent "self" and zero percent "regulated".Based on our past experience, comments in club forums and venues like this one can and will be cited in court. As an example, a comment as innocuous as "Let's all keep an eye out for each other out there" was used to argue that every pilot present at a launch site had a duty to prevent a launched-unhooked fatal accident.
Yeah...The pilots at the site didn't know that the pilot in question was intent on launching; they thought he was just walking over to the ramp to line up first. And then he ran off the ramp;
Right.Hang Gliding magazine - 2006/01
Joe Gregor:
The accident pilot spent some time under his glider while it was turned around. He then lifted it, turned 180 degrees to face the ramp, and was met by a side wire crew. At this point his team leader told the accident pilot, "Do a hang check." The wire crewman on the right side reported that, after subsequently setting the glider down, the accident pilot started adjusting his VG rope and talking to the crew about how to give him feedback.
The accident pilot picked up his glider and proceeded to the launch point. Several pilots present at the scene reported they checked his hang point and it looked like he was hooked in. Several pilots present at the scene reported that there were four or five other individuals who said, "Do a hang check," or "Have you done a hang check?" In no case was it reported that he responded directly.
Conditions were pronounced fine and the accident pilot cleared his launch. He launched using the grapevine grip and the glider dove as soon as he put weight on it.
By incompetent negligent total fucking morons who blew the opportunity of several lifetimes....the glider flew away and he didn't.
And then we got sued.
Yeah, we certainly can't afford to have a many ugly truths circulating out there, can we Mark.I ask because I've seen what's happened in the past. Things we post in public forums can have consequences, and I'm trying to give you some context so you understand what's at stake.
Count on it - motherfucker.Please consider that when posting.
Get fucked, Rich.2015/03/31 16:46:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rich Jesuroga
Probably not. But I'm gonna do everything in my power over here to help make it worse.Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/31 15:29:51 UTC
I feel like you are thinking that us keeping quite is going to prevent a law suit in this matter. News flash brother, its coming wether you want it to or not & I dont think anything anyone says on this forum is going to make things any better or worse.
Cool. Nuthin' to worry 'bout then - until some of the shock wears off a bit anyway.Davis Straub - 2015/03/31 15:49:09 UTC
I believe that the family has said no to a lawsuit.
Been awfully quiet over there since that post...Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/31 16:38:14 UTC
Lawyers are going to be calling them begging to take this thing to court. This is such an easy payday for them its unbelievable. They may have said they are not going to bring this to court, but as they enter the anger phase of the grieving process, $$$ with lots of zeros behind it is going to sound more & more logical.
Whatchya think Mark? How many decades do you think you can keep running this Ponzi scheme?Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
Hopefully this is it. And there's gotta be a video card that that no one was stupid enough to swallow this time.Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.
It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it.
Gawd. Can you imagine how badly things might have turned out if Kelly HADN'T been a well qualified pilot? Pretty ugly I'm guessing.Gregg Ludwig - 2015/03/28 23:02:12 UTC
The report shows Kelly Harrison, a well qualified pilot.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/coroner-identifies-hang-gliding-accident-victims
Coroner identifies hang-gliding accident victims | Las Vegas Review-Journal
Yes.Angelo Mantas - 2015/03/29 14:13:26 UTC
Still a lot of questions. Were they using a payout winch?
How can anybody answer that question without knowing stuff like relative headings, distances, tow angle, altitude, tension setting?If so, shouldn't it have continued paying out when the truck stopped and turned?
- Show me a platform rig that gives the driver the ability to release the line from his end.Why didn't the tow driver release the line from his end?
Harrison and Arys were in the air when the truck pulling the glider turned around abruptly, police said. The driver of the truck thought the tether had been released, as is usually done by the person in the glider...
The glider wouldn't have been able to release at some point prior to the truck completing a 180?He didn't check that the glider had released before heading back?
How would you be with the stuff...Alan Deikman - 2015/03/29 15:29:53 UTC
There was no release at the hang glider end? What kind of tow is designed to have a hang glider aloft dragging a rope to the ground? Not one I'd fly.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
...Quest has spent twenty years perfecting to the point that Davis Dead-On Straub is happy with it?Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
15-02619Rolla Manning - 2015/03/29 17:26:08 UTC
http://www.facebook.com/groups/1547390368864388
Las Vegas Hang Gliding
One of the videos shows the tow setup when it's not in sim mode.
Always a reasonably safe bet in North American hang gliding.Angelo Mantas - 2015/03/29 17:27:37 UTC
The thought right now is that the glider release didn't work...
Plus there's always a weak link and hook knife for emergencies....no one is suggesting there was no release on the glider end.
Yeah, just about any shit can happen in hang glider towing and the situation is still considered normal unless someone is killed.Jim Gaar - 2015/03/29 19:23:02 UTC
Payout winches may come to a stop in a normal towing situation.
Yes, only a VERY EXPERIENCED driver can handle these situations - preferably a tug pilot such as yourself. Certainly never a CONVICTED PAEDOPHILE - like T** at K*** S******.They can lock out a wing just like in aerotow. A observer or very experienced driver must always be OBSERVING in case of an issue, like a wing NOT releasing...
"Sheathed within easy reach on the tandem instructor's harness" would be one answer."Was there a hookknife?" would be one question.
I'm sure it does.This stuff really breaks my heart.
Especially after the massive efforts you've made to increase the safety of hang glider towing. If that happens two or three more times I'd start thinking about using a release that I didn't have to actually let go of the bar completely to get both hands on it and manually pull it free. Either that or carry a hook knife within easier reach and/or a safer weak link.Scot Trueblood - 2015/03/30 13:30:24 UTC
Payout Towing Accident
The question which seems most relevant to me is : How much tow line did they have in the air? A stuck release is easy to deal with at high altitude and high angle above the tow vehicle. On 3 different occasions, I have actually let go of the bar completely to get both hands on the release and manually pull it free.
Ya think?However, in the early stages of the tow, a lockout (which I have never even come close to in a tandem glider) combined with a stuck release could be catastrophic.
Probably one of those Tad-O-Links that many of us suddenly became happy with shortly after the Zack Marzec fatality.But why wold the weak link not fail?
Yeah, ya really need one that breaks when it's supposed to - 'specially on a payout winch.Maybe too strong of a weak link.
I do hope that Kelly's driver recovered the towline OK.At the end of a tow, we always turn our boat back toward the origin to come back under the glider and assure a better angle for recovery of the towline.
...deliberately and conspicuously...The only time a pilot on our system failed to release at the proper time resulted in me simply free-wheeling the drum to allow line to be pulled back out. Fortunately, the pilot, who I won't name but begins with a "Z", realized that it was time to pull the release and it was uneventful.
A lot of...
Perp and victim....unanswered questions here, and sadly we are left with the tragedy of 2 lives lost.
They don't understand that in hang gliding the towline transmits pressure to the glider through its bridal, that a bridle which distributes the pressure between the pilot and glider is a three point, that a weak link functions as our only safe and reliable emergency release, and that a whipstall resulting from a weak link increasing the safety of the towing operation is an inconvenience that invariably terminates before the glider hits the runway.Jonathan Boarini - 2015/03/28 16:52:39 UTC
Adding to the confusion is the fact that most people at large and in the media don't use the right terminology or have the understanding of the different types of wings, towing vs. powered flight, hang glider vs. paraglider, etc.
Yeah, you'd think the driver would wanna step forward and clarify things for us a bit - but I'm guessing he doesn't wanna engage in speculation at this early point in the investigation.It's hard from reading the news reports trying to understand what happened.
Yeah, really great guy, tops in his profession, died doing what he loved.Bille Floyd - 2015/03/28 19:53:16 UTC
Anyone know John Kelly Harrison, 55, of Hawaii ?
So here's another question:So here is a question :
If the US Coast Guard requires a second person in the boat as a look-out , to legally tow a water skier ; then how come a second person isn't required in the tow vehicle for HG and PG operations ?
Yeah, Bille can always be counted on to come up with the best ones. Lotsa towing experience in Nevada's dry lakebeds.Graeme Henderson - 2015/03/28 22:51:47 UTC
It's a good question Bille,
I've been waiting to hear why he WASN'T using a release within easy reach and WAS using a Tad-O-Link.I have been waiting to hear what the observer was doing during this crash.
And the local glider people have all shut up like clams. Four and a half days now.So far I have seen no mention, but it is early days and we are relying on the news media and the news media doesn't really know what its talking about so as yet it does not make sense.
Yeah, just like we did after the Terry Mason and Zack Marzec fatalities.Once they start getting information from knowledgeable eyewitnesses and the authorities we will know with more certainty.
You were wrong or mistaken or something like that.The way it is being reported is certainly concerning.
I will be surprised if they were towing without one because I thought observers were required and essential and mandatory and compulsory or something like that.
Thanks Graeme. You can go stick your head back up your ass now.My sympathies go to all involved.
Yeah Bille...Bille Floyd - 2015/03/29 21:31:48 UTC
Something definitely Needs to be done, about this lackadaisical attitude, when Towing !!!!!!
- With the Bob-K issue at least we're getting solid information from one side of the conflict.But you guys would rather talk about Bob-K ;
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
Who's ultimately responsible for that kid's violent death?Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
Asshole.fricken Sick and discouraging .
The boy's father wasn't even there.Jeff Chipman - 2015/03/30 19:00:46 UTC
Sylmar
Wondering if the driver or the observer (if there was one) was the boys father.
What protocol? Show me something in the u$hPa SOPs that was violated.Might possibly explain why the lack of protocol.
...Joe Greblo on this one? Or is he still much too grief stricken to weigh in at this point?John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Nevada - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo - PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST
Doesn't take the national organization long to get the shredder fired up nowadays.Search Results -- 0 members found
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