I think we can all "get a clue" from that last post. How many of us have had -or still have - a son (or daughter) that age?
A really varying one. The kind for whom we all really wanna make all places they visit really safe - whether they like it or not.
Taking steps to keep the same thing from happening again is what people who care about the safety of other people do.
Well yeah. Let's take steps but let's make absolutely certain we never actually DO anything. Let's spend decade after decade after decade after decade...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...telling people that the guy and fishing line controlling your power on takeoff CAN have a critical effect on the glider's safety and that it takes TWO hands to fly a glider and placebo releases won't cut it when the shit hits the fan but let's not go nuts with this taking steps stuff. People DO need to...
This is going to sound cold, but I believe people have a right to make their own choices. I don't want a "nanny state" where anyone is telling me what I can and can't do ... for my own good. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme. There's something bred into all living things that urges them toward taking some degree of risk in their lives. Those who want to forbid that risk are essentially snuffing out the human spirit itself. I can't support that. I do support information. I support good information. I support exposing bad information. But I don't support dictating what anyone can or can't do. The fundamental principle of economics (and evolution) is two words: "people choose".
...be allowed to CHOOSE. We don't want any human spirit snuffed out ferchrisake. Lives of people of varying ages lost doing what they love - no problem.
Scott? His age didn't vary in the right direction and he wasn't little and cute so what the fuck?
Steve Davy - 2015/04/09 04:38:38 UTC
Taking steps to keep the same thing from happening again...
This was the same thing happening again, Speck.
Well yeah. But there's nothing stopping us from taking steps to keep the same thing from happening again again.
...is what people who care about the safety of other people do.
Along with eliminating T** at K*** S****** from every place possible for the ones who really care about the people of varying ages. Great threat prioritization guys!
Good luck with that!
Bille Floyd - 2015/04/09 05:03:14 UTC
Las Vegas
Would you be insulted ; if i called You a Pessimist ?
Hope not ; cause i'm calling Ya one !!
Yeah Rodent. Fuckin' PESSIMIST! How ya ever gonna die doing what you love if you're always so pessimistic 'bout everything? Enough already.
Steve Davy - 2015/04/09 06:03:51 UTC
Not in the least. Being a pessimist helps keep me alive.
Well yeah. If ya sacrifice the risk that attracts us to this sport and like having your spleen and the lower portions of BOTH of your legs. If ya call that LIVING.
I suspect that Kelly was an optimist...
SUSPECT? Name some people in aviation who died doing what they loved who WEREN'T optimists?
...and thus using equipment that may function in a best case scenario...
Long and great track records.
...and fail to function in a worst case scenario.
Or in best case scenarios prove beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt that...
...they WILL fail any time things ain't going right.
I'm still alive, Kelly and his innocent victim...
Skydiving student.
...are not. You do the math, Bille.
Good freakin luck with that.
Hope not ; cause i'm calling Ya one !!
Thank you.
Fuckin' Tad Clone.
Bille Floyd - 2015/04/09 06:32:51 UTC
VERY GOOD Reply ; I just learned a bunch from Ya !
Losing your spleen and lower legs didn't quite do the trick. But this six sentence reply of Ridgerodent's switches on the lightbulb.
Really ; and your correct !!
William E. Floyd - Nevada - 19773
- H4 - 1983/02/21 - Steve Hawxhurst - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- P2 - 2007/06/06 - Ron Peck - FL ST CL FSL HA RLF RS TUR
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
This topic is generated to better understand safe platform/payout operations.
In accordance with USHPA, the accident report was submitted 6-16, the evening of the accident.
SWTHG forum is moderated. Please stay on topic. Remarks relevant to safety and accuracy in reporting are welcome.
False speculations and suppositions, as showed up soon after 6-16, only reflect, IMO, the insecurity of those individuals makeing them.
Bob's good friend and Bob Show Fake Board of Directors member Sam Kellner...
Sam Kellner - Leakey, Texas - 16016 - H4 - 1982/03/04 - Steve Hawxhurst - AT FL PL PA AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR - BAS INST, OBS
Terry James Mason - Leakey, Texas - 31982 - H3 - 2011/07/22 - Sam Kellner
...assures us that an "accident" report (very thorough, I would assume) was sent "in accordance with u$hPa" - whatever the fuck that means - before all the day's dust had finished settling.
Was the Leakey fatal of less value to the u$hPa board, officers, membership than the Vegas because only half as many people were killed and none of them...
...were of varying ages?
How come we didn't have very experienced tow administrator Mitch Risk-Man Shipley headed to Leakey to do an accident investigation, working with the local instructors there to get to the truth?
Was the deal that you already had the truth in the report and had ascertained that it would be of no interest and/or value to other platform operators and/or tandem skydiving instructors?
I'm having a real hard time believing that 'cause either mistakes were made by highly qualified u$hPa rated pilots and instructors or nobody did anything wrong, shit just happens once every few years, and people die on platform and there's nothing that can be done to make it safer.
And if anybody did anything wrong on the Terry then Kelly was deprived of information that he might have been able to use to prevent the Kelly/Arys.
And if nobody did anything wrong on the Terry then Kelly was deprived of the information that platform is just a variation of Russian roulette with a much better survival probability and the ability to make an informed decision about engaging in platform as a commercial enterprise. And he was also deprived of the ability to inform his little students of varying ages...
...and their families that they were about to engage in rounds of Russian roulette and, after the better part of three years, we were about due for another jackpot winner.
Either way I see you guys as sleazy criminally negligent motherfuckers long overdue for some really good comeuppances.
Two weeks tomorrow, Mark. And this was such an overwhelming crisis that u$hPa virtually immediately put its top very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) on the plane to Vegas to do an accident investigation, working with two of the local instructors, to get to the truth and learn what really happened in order to convey that information to its members.
So you've got these two deaths - a Hang Five Advanced Tandem Instructor...
John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Hawaii - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo
- PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, TAND INST
...and his eleven year old skydiving student. And you've got a guy...
Mitchell Shipley - Florida - 47131 - H5 - 2013/09/20 - Steve Kroop
- AT FL ST TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, AT TOW OBS, PL TOW OBS, ST TOW OBS, TAND INST
...investigating the dead guy who'd need to multiply his Hang Five time by over twelve and a quarter to match him. So are we sure that Mitch is really up to the job here? I mean, if an 18.4 year Hang Five wasn't able to get the job right what real chance does a 1.5 year guy have of figuring out what the problem was?
And so far not one tiny scrap of information has come from our surviving Top Gun. Seems to bear out what I'm saying here.
So since you u$hPa douchebags don't seem to be able to make any headway whatsoever towards scratching the surface of this mystery and given that you're rabidly concerned about maintaining the safety of tandem glider...
2015/03/20
Mr. Robert M. Kuczewski
PO Box 12888
La Jolla, CA 92039
Dear Mr. Kuczewski,
On March 14, 2015, the Board of Directors of the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (USHPA) determined that you should be expelled from the association pursuant to the USHPA bylaws which provide for the expulsion of a member based upon a good faith determination by the board that the member has failed in a material and serious degree to observe the rules of conduct governing USHPA or has engaged in conduct materially and seriously prejudicial to the purpose and interests of USHPA.
The behavior upon which the board has determined that you should be expelled from the association falls into the following categories:
2. Endangering safety of paragliding and hang gliding operations involving members of USHPA, USHPA Certified Instructors, and USHPA Tandem Instructors at the Torrey Pines Gliderport (TPGP) by, among other things:
a. Disrupting training of students at TPGP;
b. Continuing to disrupt training of students at TPGP, after being asked to stop by TPGP personnel;
c. Being in the active airfield restricted area of TPGP for purposes unrelated to flying;
d. Remaining in, and refusing to leave the active airfield restricted area of TPGP after being asked by TPGP personnel to leave;
...training operations why haven't you put out an advisory and grounded all tandem platform training operations pending the conclusion and implementation of the recommendations of your investigation? AT LEAST slap a minimum age of eighteen on an order to keep our people of varying ages safe.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.
Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.
William Olive - 2013/02/27 20:55:06 UTC
Like the rest of us, you have no idea what really happened on that tow.
We probably never will know.
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC
Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07
Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation.
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
Doesn't sound like we ever REALLY got to the truth / found out what really happened on that one. So how come we haven't grounded tandem aerotow training? How come Mitch Risk-Man Shipley is taking up skydiving students less than half...
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
If you u$hPa shits are all so goddam concerned about getting to the truth, learning what really happened, conveying information to the membership, squelching uninformed speculation, finding out what THEORETICALLY might be done to prevent these things from happening then how come your very first action following one of these is to pull the u$hPa fatal off of your database...
John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Hawaii - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo
- PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, TAND INST
- Exp: 2015/06/30
...and shred it - before the body gets moved off the crash site...
KSNV-9-24015-6
...if at all possible. Rating, experience, instructor, signoffs, appointments. Guess we don't want any of our members having their perceptions of what actually happened and why clouded with any facts like those. Funny, as I recall things about the Flight 9525 crash the precise and extreme opposite strategy was employed.
Justify that policy with something legitimate sounding, Mark. Do we have it the SOPs somewhere or is that just something else your consigliere started having you do?
I'll bet some of you sleazy motherfuckers could end up going to prison for obstruction of justice convictions under the right set of circumstances - possibly/hopefully these.
Keep it up. Keep getting away with more and more outrageous bullshit and keep thinking because you've been getting away with constantly ramping it up you can keep getting away with constantly ramping it up.
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.
- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.
The whole procedure is outlined in SOP 03-16, which you can read by logging into the USHPA website and clicking on "Policy Manual".
Tell us how, at a point at which our very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) hasn't even left for Vegas to do the accident investigation, work with two of the local paragliding instructors there to get to the truth, learn what really happened you already know that this will be the first fatal hang gliding crash in about a decade and a half that Tim Herr will spare from the shredder and permit the membership to see - with absolutely no concern whatsoever that the snuffing of a skydiving student of a varying age of eleven in a fine, flat, wide open dry lakebed...
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've attached the definition of an approved launch site so that you may learn, instead of spouting ignorantly. FAA has had that clause in the exemption for decades, and we have a document (included with the tandem packet) which defines what such a site is. Pilots have been towing at Jean Lake for many years. It's a fine towing site; wide open and flat, and fits the definition of an approved tandem site.
...that's the very definition of a u$hPa approved tandem training tow site, in totally benign conditions, and under control of a Hang Five advanced tandem towing instructor and Pilot In Command with experience and qualifications coming out his ass won't present the slightest risk of liability...
We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident. It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it.
...to our fine corporation?
We're gonna get the unredacted truth on what REALLY HAPPENED on this one 'cause of its obvious squeaky cleanliness. Really makes ya wonder about the hundreds of reports - like...
This topic is generated to better understand safe platform/payout operations.
In accordance with USHPA, the accident report was submitted 6-16, the evening of the accident.
SWTHG forum is moderated. Please stay on topic. Remarks relevant to safety and accuracy in reporting are welcome.
False speculations and suppositions, as showed up soon after 6-16, only reflect, IMO, the insecurity of those individuals makeing them.
Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC
No, you don't get an accident report.
...Sam Kellner's - that got totally shredded.
And here I was thinking that this would actually be...
...the BIGGEST liability threat to u$hPa's in the course of the decades of its sordid history.
Sounds a lot to me, Mark, that the only way you could predict that you'll be conveying the information on what REALLY HAPPENED to "OUR MEMBERS" (but certainly not to nonmember pilots, the families of the two fatals, general public, local law enforcement officials, the FAA...) would be if the report had already been written before anybody found out anything about what REALLY HAPPENED.
I'm guessing u$hPa's got a stash of liability free fatality report templates on hand for all conceivable flavors of crashes just waiting for names, dates, and locations to be filled in - lotsa stuff about just freezing, no evidence of an attempt to release, invisible dust devils, homemade equipment, inappropriate Tad-O-Links that don't break when they're supposed to (in accordance with the Towing Committee's expectations), failing to perform hang checks, open face helmets.
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this...
I have no interest whatsoever in learning the cause of this myself... Nowhere in the archives of hang gliding can it be documented that I displayed the slightest interest in ever learning the cause of ANY disaster. Notice the way my voice was totally absent from any of the Zack Marzec discussion threads? But I DO understand the interest OTHER PEOPLE have in learning the cause of this. Me... My particular interest is in expelling Bob from u$hPa for endangering paragliding students and instructors in ground school training at a public park by callously taking pictures of them with his iPhone.
...but could we please not speculate on the forum?
Why? Does The Jack Show have some special recognized official u$hPa status?
People need to ask themselves if they would allow 100 KKK members into their home each week to spew racist s*** because *freedom of speech* !!!
Why not? You support freedom of speech right? You dont want to be an evil censor right?
Who wants to offer their home first? Step right up. Lets hear it. Lets see how much you really stand behind your beliefs.
This is JACK'S *HOME* - nothing more, nothing less. And, speaking of Jack...
2015/03/20
Mr. Robert M. Kuczewski
PO Box 12888
La Jolla, CA 92039
Dear Mr. Kuczewski,
On March 14, 2015, the Board of Directors of the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (USHPA) determined that you should be expelled from the association pursuant to the USHPA bylaws which provide for the expulsion of a member based upon a good faith determination by the board that the member has failed in a material and serious degree to observe the rules of conduct governing USHPA or has engaged in conduct materially and seriously prejudicial to the purpose and interests of USHPA.
The behavior upon which the board has determined that you should be expelled from the association falls into the following categories:
1. Creation of at least two national hang gliding organizations with the stated purpose of competing with USHPA, one of which you currently control;
Im in with the web help. If it builds enough steam over the long haul, (this will be a long marathon, not a race), ill slowly build the fully online new HG national org that is so damn "google efficient" you'll be able to run it with a tiny handful of people to keep costs to a bare minimum
Jack was one of the three prime creators of one of those organizations and has been since Day One and up to and including the present in TOTAL CONTROL of it. So how come you're taking ZERO action...
Jack Axaopoulos - North Carolina - 71169 - H4 - 2000/11/15 - John Borton - AT FL TFL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - Exp: 2016/03/31
Good collection of quotes Swift. You've certainly been paying attention.
Swift - 2015/03/30 19:58:57 UTC
The quotes were recovered by another pilot that has also been expelled from hang gliding.
He does the research and I follow his commentary closely.
...AND WORSE - going on over here. How come you're only addressing it on The Jack Show?
We...
Who's WE? u$hPa Board of Directors? Executive Committee? Rich Hass, Mark G. Forbes, Tim Herr? Tim Herr?
...have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation...
Did ya talk to any of us muppets about who should be heading to Vegas to do an accident investigation? Did you consider bringing in someone outside of u$hPa to avoid the appearances of conflict of interest and cover-up? Just kidding.
...and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members.
Oh. So after "WE" learn what really happened WE'll convey that information to OUR muppets. Sorry - MEMBERS.
So why don't you just have Mitch post the findings of his investigation at http://www.hanggliding.org - u$hPa's Official Hang Gliding Discussion Forum - upon its conclusion for everyone to see at once? Worried that it might need a little EDITING to make absolutely certain that it meets Official u$hPa Standards of The Truth?
No, wait. You said WE'll convey that information to OUR MEMBERS. And not everyone on - or not on but still able to read - The Jack Show is one of OUR MEMBERS. And, of course, that also means that you're not gonna publish THE TRUTH in your magazine 'cause ANYBODY who can read English can go over to:
So exactly how are WE planning to "CONVEY" THE TRUTH to OUR MEMBERS? Personal mailing after signing of a nondisclosure agreement?
He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
So you're saying - correct me if I'm wrong - that THE TRUTH is known by Vegas people but they've been deliberately suppressing it for the past couple weeks. So, obviously, you've reported this to the appropriate authorities. So how come this hasn't been reported by the mainstream media? You're waiting for Mitch's investigation to conclude?
Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)
How many years have you budgeted for Mitch to be out there investigating this "accident" involving two fatalities? What's the price tag on a year's worth of a half decent room at the Flamingo?
Meanwhile...
C'mon Mark. Give us some ballpark figure on the number of years constituted by "MEANWHILE".
...please refrain from offering speculation...
OFFERING speculation? Jesus H. Keeriste. SPECULATION isn't something anyone "OFFERS". It's a DISEASE - pretty much the same thing as Ebola virus or cancer.
...or opinion...
Oh My GOD! We can't even offer OPINION? What else does hang gliding have to keep it going?
...on what might have happened....
And also, of course, please refrain on any comments regarding what DID happen. Those are particularly difficult for u$hPa to deal with.
...what might have been theoretically done to prevent it...
I get what you're saying Christopher.
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.
We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.
It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.
So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
Your second statement is why.
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.
Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.
THEORY is like SPECULATION - 'cept about fifty times worse. We need to deal with REALITY here and the REALITY is that if there had been some way to prevent this one everybody would've been on the same page with it already. Sorry Mark...
I just read the proposed changes that Tad posted. First I've heard of them. I know he was threatening to send a letter to the FAA, and I heard about *that*, but before that time I'd heard nothing. I wasn't in the aerotow committee meeting at the last BOD, because I was busy doing another committee at that time.
I have an assortment of concerns, starting with the use of the word "infallible" and continuing on from there. Partly what bothers me is that the proposed language doesn't reflect the current state of the art, particularly with regard to towing by light sport aircraft, which almost all of our tugs are. It's fairly rare to have a true Part 103 legal tug, and I don't know of one that could provide 250 pounds of towing force. Even Ray's little 447-powered Mustang trike is too heavy for Part 103, and my big honkin' Venus with a 582 is WAAAAY too massive. I'm sure that Ray's little trike doesn't pull anywhere near 250 pounds.
Tad, you need to get some face time in the next committee meeting, in addition to sending out emails and posting PDFs. You won't get anywhere with this if you don't get people working WITH you, and the attitude so far hasn't given folks much reason to climb onto your bandwagon. Things don't happen immediately, but good ideas do eventually get implemented if you keep after it and persevere. I think you may have SOME good ideas here, and SOME of them may be worth incorporating into our SOPs.
The next BOD meeting is probably going to be mid-November (we're still working out the dates) and it'll be in Austin, Texas. You should plan to be there, in addition to working with the members of the aerotow committee by email in the interim.
Action comes more swiftly when there's a clear threat to safety. I'm not seeing evidence (in the form of accidents or fatalities) that demonstrate that there's a major problem. There may be room for improvement, and that's certainly worth considering as we review and update our procedures, but I don't see the urgency of adopting these changes without careful consideration and the input of lots of other people involved in aerotowing. I'd want to hear what Steve Wendt, Jim Rooney, Malcolm Jones, Bobby Bailey, Steve Kroop, Dave Glover, John Kemmeries, Hungary Joe and others have to say as well. As your proposed language stands today, I would vote against it based on my concerns. That's not to say that you're wrong, but I haven't bought into your proposal yet myself, and I haven't heard other viewpoints sufficient to form an opinion that's favorable.
You obviously already understand that. I just wanted to make that clear to some of the newer muppets who may not yet be up to speed.
I dunno. You did the right thing and got them to stop speculating and it looks to me like everything was back to normal by eight days ago.
...and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody.
And all this great information we have streaming back to us from Mitch's accident investigation command center at the Flamingo is helping EVERYBODY. And allow me the honor of being the first to thank him for his monumental effort and unparalleled reporting.
News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Yeah, lotsa them think this was some kind of hang glider crash. Kelly's students realize that it was actually a skydiving accident.
They've been a hell of a lot more use than everything we've so far gotten from u$hPa and the local hang gliding community put together - which is ZILCH - MOTHERFUCKER.
The truck took a turn ... the turn caused a little bit of slack in the line ... and when the slack came out of the line it yanked the glider and caused the glider to stall and nose dive into the ground.
And it's a no brainer that since Kelly was massively qualified by u$hPa as an advanced tandem platform tow instructor that he was using a reliable release within easy reach.
So how much more do we really need from any of you u$hPa pigfuckers? Sumpin' special 'bout this one - other than the fact that it was low enough for shit to matter?
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
After another ten days now ya might wanna give that a bump, Mark. Pretty much all those Jack Show assholes - Jack in particular - are oozing with understanding and patience. But ya never know 'bout one or two of 'em.
I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
How is that "accident" investigation coming along, Mark?
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/12 06:22:28 UTC
I don't know.
You DON'T KNOW? It's been a couple weeks now. What's the problem? Is Mitch having so much trouble getting to the truth that there's been nothing to report? Or is he so overwhelmed with the truth that he hasn't yet been able to condense it from Russian novel length into something presentable?
2015/03/30 00:37 UTC - Published
2015/03/30 17:38 UTC - Updated
LAS VEGAS (KSNV My News 3) -- The 11-year-old New Mexico boy killed in a hang glider accident Friday afternoon was eager to take to the skies.
In a Skype interview Sunday from their home in Farmington, N.M., family members said Arys Moorhead volunteered to go first at the dry lake bed south of Jean.
Flying in tandem with instructor John "Kelly" Harrison, Arys was being pulled behind a modified pickup truck.
The brief moments of trying to catch flight turned horribly bad in just seconds. "The truck took a turn ... the turn caused a little bit of slack in the line ... and when the slack came out of the line it yanked the glider and caused the glider to stall and nose dive into the ground," Corbin Moorhead said.
This flight didn't last fifteen seconds, maybe half that. Just how much description could be involved?
When I have more knowledge...
OH. You have SOME knowledge - but you don't know how the investigation's going. So from where are you getting this "KNOWLEDGE" and why is it being withheld from us muppets, the general public, the FAA? Or, if you're getting your SOME knowledge from the investigation, as is your obvious implication, then why did you just lie to us?
...I'll mention it.
Great! Here, lemme write your update for ya...
Mark G. Forbes - ????/??/?? ???:??/??? UTC
Hi folks,
I now have more knowledge about how Mitch's accident investigation is coming along. Just thought I'd mention it. Thanks for your understanding and patience.
I was gonna make the year 20?? but then I realized that as long as you stay out of direct sunlight and nobody drives a stake through your heart there's really no known limit.
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
Just how good an idea is it to send an unaccompanied risk junkie with a substantial accident investigation budget to Vegas for a couple weeks? Ya think there might be other reasons you've got no and little knowledge of how the investigation's going?
And just what is the motivation for going to Vegas anyway?
He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
He'll be working with two of the LOCAL *PARAGLIDING* INSTRUCTORS there to get to the truth? Guess he's not working with the platform driver 'cause it's been determined that he's either withholding the truth or lying to try to keep his ass safe from prosecution and/or liability.
So how come he's not going to Farmington to get to the truth?
The skydiving students in Arys' family who DIDN'T get killed...
Corbin Moorhead - 2015/03/29
Me, my mother, my brother, and my grandma watched it as it plummeted to the ground and we raced to the crash site.
...brothers Kyle Schneider and Corbin Moorhead, mother Michelle Schneider, grandmother Lucy Schneider - all had unobstructed front row views of what happened, were undoubtedly glued to all of the seven to fifteen seconds of the lesson, want to understand...
Nathan O'Neal - 2015/03/29
But what exactly went wrong? The boy's family doesn't blame that flying instructor, still, they want answers and that could take some time with Metro's investigation.
...what the fuck happened and why, and have absolutely no motivation for lying - in stark contrast to u$hPa and everybody else involved in the Vegas hang and para gliding tandem thrill ride industries.
Elizabeth Gadley
Everything was going smoothly then partway through the flight they noticed there was too much slack on the tether connecting the glider to the truck. They say the glider sped up to fix the problem but, instead, it pulled the glider into a nosedive.
Corbin Moorhead
The truck took a turn ... the turn caused a little bit of slack in the line ... and when the slack came out of the line it yanked the glider and caused the glider to stall and nose dive into the ground.
Once the glider hit the ground it was almost as if it was a dream, you know, it didn't seem real.
We weren't one hundred percent sure that something was going wrong until the glider nosedived. As soon as that happened it was almost as if a dream came over us and... It almost didn't seem real.
Name some other aviation disaster investigators who totally ignore eyewitnesses who've watched every relevant second of a crash from under a football field's length away and works closely with local paragliding instructors who were back in Vegas at the time to get to the truth.
If it were Yours Truly the family members would've been the FIRST people I'd wanna interview and tandem thrill ride industry people would be last on the list - and then only included so's I'd know the DEGREE to which they were lying. It would also be fun to see if they were stupid enough to try to get away with the Invisible Dust Devil catch-all on this one.
P.S. Mark...
There's no fuckin' way there's not a video card for this one. How come we haven't heard anything about it? And in the one in a billion chance that there's NOT a video card for this one then how come we haven't heard that there wasn't a video card for this one?
- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.
- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.
The whole procedure is outlined in SOP 03-16, which you can read by logging into the USHPA website and clicking on "Policy Manual".
What's it like having no integrity whatsoever? Being in a position in which anytime you ever say anything it can be flatly contradicted by another of your quotes? Does it make it OK 'cause the vast majority of people in hang gliding are also sleazy soulless motherfuckers who do the same thing themselves, don't give flying fucks, will shower you with praises for the great jobs you're doing on everything?
Does it bother you in the slightest that because, not only have you not done your fuckin' job...
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
...but made sure no individual anywhere has been able...
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
Tad, you need to get some face time in the next committee meeting, in addition to sending out emails and posting PDFs. You won't get anywhere with this if you don't get people working WITH you, and the attitude so far hasn't given folks much reason to climb onto your bandwagon. Things don't happen immediately, but good ideas do eventually get implemented if you keep after it and persevere. I think you may have SOME good ideas here, and SOME of them may be worth incorporating into our SOPs.
The next BOD meeting is probably going to be mid-November (we're still working out the dates) and it'll be in Austin, Texas. You should plan to be there, in addition to working with the members of the aerotow committee by email in the interim.
Action comes more swiftly when there's a clear threat to safety. I'm not seeing evidence (in the form of accidents or fatalities) that demonstrate that there's a major problem. There may be room for improvement, and that's certainly worth considering as we review and update our procedures, but I don't see the urgency of adopting these changes without careful consideration and the input of lots of other people involved in aerotowing. I'd want to hear what Steve Wendt, Jim Rooney, Malcolm Jones, Bobby Bailey, Steve Kroop, Dave Glover, John Kemmeries, Hungary Joe and others have to say as well. As your proposed language stands today, I would vote against it based on my concerns. That's not to say that you're wrong, but I haven't bought into your proposal yet myself, and I haven't heard other viewpoints sufficient to form an opinion that's favorable.
The REAL real answer is that I don't know. I haven't heard from Mitch, Martin is in Japan right now on vacation, the EC hasn't been notified. When I have actual facts I'll answer your question, even if that answer turns out to be "I can't discuss the details."
This anonymous "Swift" character seems pretty poorly informed IMHO. Reduced to repeating out-of-context quotes from years ago...
The REAL real answer is that I don't know.
So THIS:
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/12 06:22:28 UTC
When I have more knowledge, I'll mention it.
leading us to believe that you had SOME knowledge, was the FAKE answer. Thank you for clarifying that. So I guess anything you say that you don't specifically identify as "REAL real" we can assume FAKE?
I haven't heard from Mitch, Martin is in Japan right now on vacation, the EC hasn't been notified.
So who HAS heard from Mitch? What indication do we have that he hasn't spent the last couple of weeks jerking off in his hotel room?
We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.
By "WE" maybe you just mean Tim Herr - the only person in US hang gliding who has a vote for anything that actually counts. And if that's indeed the case - as I rather believe - the reason we haven't heard anything is that...
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it.
...he's determined that WHAT REALLY HAPPENED / THE TRUTH presents a high level of threat to you sleazy criminally negligent serial killing motherfuckers and has already shredded it - consistent with the kinda bullshit we've been seeing from u$hPa for decades.
When I have actual facts...
WHEN you have the actual facts? Assuming Risk Man Mitch actually comes up with any AND actually reports them AND Tim actually permits you to see them?
I'll answer your question, even if that answer turns out to be "I can't discuss the details."
What if we're not really interested in DISCUSSING what color socks Kelly was wearing when he, his glider, and his skydiving student slammed in? Can you TELL US anything about WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED? Or does the Sacred Oath you swore upon admittance to the Executive Committee preclude you from doing so upon pain of eternal damnation?
So when you said:
...when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members.
you were just flat out lying in an effort to keep hinder people from adding two plus two and coming up with four. THE TRUTH is that when "WE" learn what really happened we'll tell our members that it's none of their goddam business and they can go fuck themselves.
This anonymous "Swift" character seems pretty poorly informed IMHO.
- EVERYBODY's pretty poorly informed - MOTHERFUCKER. That's 'cause everything you pieces a shit in control of the wires do is optimized to keep everyone outside of The Priesthood poorly or - whenever possible - totally un informed.
- Oh. This anonymous "Swift" character SEEMS pretty poorly informed in YOUR humble OPINION. I'll take that under advisement. In MY humble OPINION anonymous "Swift" character IS one of the dozen best informed hang glider people on the fuckin' planet - which, of course, is why you're using your pathetic transparent bullshit in an attempt to misrepresent his statements and discredit him.
Reduced to repeating out-of-context quotes from years ago...
Well maybe you could put them in context for us, Mark, to make it obvious that you were actually saying the polar opposite of what you're saying without the context.
I'll give you all three of the out-of-context quotes that Swift has been reduced to "REPEATING" - posting ONCE - from years ago to make it easy for you:
Ridgerodent - 2015/04/12 05:45:46 UTC
How is that "accident" investigation coming along, Mark?
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/12 06:22:28 UTC
I don't know. When I have more knowledge, I'll mention it.
Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56 UTC
Here's how it really works:
- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the ED about it. He may also notify our insurers if he sees a potential for a claim, as is normal practice for any incident where we are aware of such a potential.
- Redacted report goes to the accident review chairs, for incorporation into periodic articles in the magazine. Articles focus on root causes of accidents, not on personal narratives or details.
The first two were from early yesterday morning UTC and the last one was well under four and a half years ago. And I'm delighted to hear that that one's out of both date context and therefore a grotesque misrepresentation of how it really works. But I'd really appreciate an updated and in context clarification of how it really works so that we'd all know it doesn't really work the way we're all now watching it really work. Or does the Sacred Oath you swore upon admittance to the Executive Committee preclude you from providing one upon pain of eternal damnation?
This anonymous "Swift" character seems pretty poorly informed IMHO. Reduced to repeating out-of-context quotes from years ago...
Seems that he is just reiterating the process, which you have already stated, for those that missed it in the past.
Like, fer instance, Kelly Harrison and his skydiving student of a varying age.
How does that make "Swift" poorly informed, other than in the context of the current accident, for which you have already stated the reasons for yourself, as well as the rest of us, being "poorly informed"?
The idea is to withhold all the good information and flood the wires with as much total crap as possible and then attack all the recreational pilots as off-the-scale dense and clueless muppets. EXACTLY the same strategy Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and all his Aerotow Industry motherfuckers use. Give total shit instruction: publish total shit books, magazine articles, SOPs; put 'em up on total shit equipment; ruthlessly stomp out any quality individuals, references, equipment; then tell them what incompetent clueless muppets they are when they crash and burn and survive or their friends and family members what incompetent clueless muppets they were when they crash and burn and don't.
We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.
Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.
How's that "re-working" of the "accident" reporting system coming along, Mark?
- Hey, fuck you seemingly pretty poorly informed IMHO anonymous "Ridgerodent" character reduced to repeating out-of-context quotes from years ago.
- Fuck that "re-working" of the "accident" reporting system. Pretty freakin' obvious they got it perfected years ago. Tuned up great, purring like a kitten.
Brian Scharp - 2015/04/13 15:50:27 UTC
Doesn't withholding information that would prevent repeat incidents also have legal issues?
Obviously not yet. But don't worry - Tim will be able to stay gainfully employed dealing with those WHEN they become problematic. Asshole.
I note that as of a couple minutes prior to my posting this Brian's post has been deleted. Hey Davis... I got the page saved this time - motherfucker.
---
Edit - 2015/04/13 19:07:00 UTC
Damn. It was deleted by the author - not Davis. I'd make some sort of apology to him 'cept he's still a motherfucker with a long well documented history of editing, sabotaging, burying, deleting good posts and my assumption was totally fair even if wrong.
How many of us have had -or still have - a son (or daughter) that age?
Where were ya after this one:
