2015/03/27 Jean Lake crash

[<BS>]

Isn't that the bridle/towline trailing towards the lower left corner of the photo?

07-03019
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8737/16790136379_c1c17b2f86_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

1. I'm sorry, I can't discuss the details.

2. I dunno, ask Mitch.

3. Yeah. Definitely. Note the retrieval chute:

15-02619
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8731/16991517625_394458c959_o.png


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8755/16371420963_2fb0bb7c9b_o.png
23-03400

Good job.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post7681.html#p7681

Partial apology, Bill.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Scott C. Wise - 2015/04/13 22:41:27 UTC

The ushpa is clearly more in the insurance business than in the "Let's fly safely business". Sad to say.

Don't ACTUAL insurance companies go to considerable legitimate effort to reduce the risk involved in the issue they're covering? Don't they require that automobiles meet very strict federal safety standards, give discounts for antilock brakes, increase rates for speeders, drop drunk drivers? Show me something u$hPa has done to make flying safer.

'Member when I wrote the FAA and informed them that, while under the terms of the exemption for aerotowing only HGMA/DHV certified gliders could be flown, taking a hand off to release totally decertifies the glider and will often precipitate a fatal crash in an emergency situation? And what was u$hPa's response? Mandate existing technology for compliant releases? Or quietly delete the requirement for certified gliders from the terms they'd presented to the FAA in order to obtain the exemption?

Davis Straub - 2015/04/13 23:49:30

The federal government is an insurance company with an army. The USHPA doesn't have an army.

When you've got a sleazy lawyer protecting scum like you and your Aerotow Industry motherfucker buddies what do you need an army for?

Swift - 2015/04/14 17:45:50 UTC

USHPA Accident Report Procedure

Mark,

It's very hard to believe you haven't heard anything from Mitch. Can you please explain how your quotes are taken out of context?
Has USHPA policy changed from what you wrote earlier?

u$hPa policy is a massive shit heap of contradictions engineered to present an appropriate face for any occasion.

Brian Scharp - 2015/04/16 19:00:36 UTC

Admitting to withholding sensitive accident information also sounds like an exposure of information that poses a risk to USHPA.

It's back.

Tommy Thompson - 2015/04/16 23:22:44 UTC
Whitewater

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

Mark, the mixed messages we get makes me wonder if your statement above is correct (I hope it's not).

It was made in an unguarded moment. So yep.

If not USHPA, then who?

A single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. Who else?

03-18 is a good example of USHPA's task (which I hope is still true).

Despite every shred of evidence to the contrary.

Tandem Committee

Standard Operating Procedure 03-18
Last Amended March, 2014

03-18.01 Introduction

USHPA has established a three-tiered system of requirements for tandem ("two-place" or "dual") flying: Tandem 1 and Tandem 2 for recreational tandem flying, and Tandem Instructor for instructional tandem flying. These requirements are in addition to those established by the Federal Aviation Administration tandem exemption (FAA Exemption No. 4721). Tandem flying methods differ from solo flying methods, and may require more training and assistance. Close attention to proper training, equipment, and procedures are required for safe operations. The Tandem Committee should gather and disseminate information and oversee the tandem rating programs and tandem operational standards.

03-18.02 Committee Responsibilities

A. Seek out information on tandem methods, equipment, and sites.
B. Promote standards and procedures to ensure safe tandem operations.
C. Develop, initiate, and maintain rating programs for tandem operations.
D. Review tandem related accidents and fatalities to prevent repetition.
E. Appoint Tandem Administrators in accordance with the requirements of SOP 12-02.

Note 03-18.02 A. & B.

Yeah Mark. Actually READ it. That way you won't repeat the mistake of "thinking"...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12443
AT regs

Mark G. Forbes - 2009/06/13 04:27:43 UTC

Partly what bothers me is that the proposed language doesn't reflect the current state of the art, particularly with regard to towing by light sport aircraft, which almost all of our tugs are. It's fairly rare to have a true Part 103 legal tug, and I don't know of one that could provide 250 pounds of towing force. Even Ray's little 447-powered Mustang trike is too heavy for Part 103, and my big honkin' Venus with a 582 is WAAAAY too massive. I'm sure that Ray's little trike doesn't pull anywhere near 250 pounds.

...it's just something else Crazy Tad pulled out of his ass.

Davis Straub - 2015/04/16 23:38:56 UTC

Nuances.
Hang gliding is dangerous. It is not safe.

With motherfuckers like you and Mark involved in and controlling it.

Tommy Thompson - 2015/04/17 00:53:18 UTC

IMO without USHPA and the SOPs people would be doing tandems flying like your avatar with some grouponer riding on your back, which would be much more dangerous.

Bull fucking shit. They'd be doing EXACTLY what they are now - throwing up whatever bent pin crap they can get away with just about all the time and pissing all over any solid technology that gets handed them on silver platters 'cause they'll never admit that they could've prevented scores of manglings and deaths if they'd adopted anything decent in the past.

You show me where anybody has EVER given the least flying fuck about u$hPa and/or it's SOPs - other than getting the ticket signoff from some other total asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 01:19:44 UTC

Nuances

As with many things, the devil's in the details.

In addition to the ones in and serving as counsel to the u$hPa Board of Directors - but that goes without saying.

It is not USHPA's responsibility to guarantee the safety of pilots.

Course not. It's u$hPa's responsibility to make and keep hang gliding as dangerous as it possibly can for all concerned.

Neither is it the responsibility of instructors, flight park owners, land managers or other pilots.

Great. So anybody can do whatever the fuck he feels like to a student and/or recreational pilot - in clear and flagrant violation of u$hPa SOPs and/or FAA regulations - and get an NAA Safety and/or Instructor of the Year Award.

Each pilot is personally and individually responsible for their own safety. That is a fundamental tenet of our sport.

- Complete with the shit grammar.
- Define "OUR" sport - motherfucker.
- Who the hell authorized you to define fundamental tenets of "OUR" sport?
- Meanwhile, back in reality:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And when you motherfuckers spend DECADES perpetrating the bald-faced LIE that there's such a thing as a release within easy reach people WILL die at fairly predictable rates.

As an association we cannot guarantee that pilots will be safe.

PILOTS - trained and allowed to be PILOTS - don't NEED your fuckin' guarantee that they'll be safe. But...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2014/03/14
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
21. Addendum 1 - Optional Landing Task

At the discretion of the Observer or Instructor and not the pilot, this task may be substituted for the "three spot landings in a row" task. The optional landing task must only be used when the spot landing task is not practical or potentially dangerous. The administration of the task is as follows:

A. Equipment. Two flags, connected by a 200' long piece of wide ribbon. Flags and ribbon should be of a size and color so as to be visible from the air. Alternately, a 200' long line may be permanently marked on the ground in areas where the wind direction is highly reliable. The endpoints of the line must be visible from the air on approach, and at least one wind direction flag should be provided.
B. Procedure. The, Basic Instructor, Advanced Instructor or Observer selects the most logical (most desirable / safest) landing point in the landing area. He plants one flag (the limit flag) 100' directly upwind of this point, stretches out the ribbon and plants the second flag (the threshold flag) 100' downwind of the ideal landing point; 200' downwind of the limit flag.

The ribbon represents a runway. The task is to land on the runway. Successful completion of the task requires the pilot to make a landing where no weight bearing contact is made prior to the threshold flag, beyond the limit flag, or more than 20' laterally away from the ribbon (runway centerline). The pilot may not touch the nose of the glider, nor the control bar, nor any part of the pilot's body other than the soles of his feet to the ground. In a landing that is pre-designated to be made on wheels, the front of the pilot's body may touch the ground.

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb. Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Ok, keyboard in hand.
I've got a bit of time, but I'm not going to write a dissertation... so either choose to try to understand what I'm saying, or (as is most often the case) don't.
I don't care.

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

So, you're quite right in your thinking in your example. The person you have to convince is me (or whoever your tuggie is).
I've had this conversation with many people.
We've had various outcomes.
I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

I've towed at places that use different weak links than greenspot. They're usually some other form of fishing line. Up in Nelson (New Zealand), they don't have greenspot, so they found a similar weight fishing line. They replace their link every single tow btw... every one, without question or exception... that's just what the owner wants and demands. Fine by me. If it wasn't, then I wouldn't tow for them and I wouldn't be towed by them. That's his place and he gets to make that call. Pretty simple.

Up at Morningside, they're using that new orange weaklink. It's a bit stronger and it has to be sewn or glued so it doesn't slip when unloaded.

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

So I hope that sheds some light on the situation.
But again, every tuggie's different and every situation is different.
What doesn't change however is that it's my call, not yours.
And it's my job to be the "bad guy" sometimes.
Sorry. It's just the way it is.

...you and your pet motherfuckers FORCE us to become passengers in ALL of the critical situations you can manage.

We know that there is risk, and that some will be injured or killed pursuing our activity.

Did Arys and his family know and understand the KNOWN, UNNECESSARY, EASILY NEGATABLE risk he was about to be exposed to pursuing "OUR" activity?

We have to recognize that and deal with the headaches...

...that come from it.

How y'all comin' along dealing with THAT "headache"? How are things going with the cover-up/disinformation exercise?

Pilots will make mistakes, and sometimes they will end up in danger despite their best efforts to avoid it.

Really? Got a good example you can reference?

What we *can* do is to provide information to pilots that will help them to make good, safe decisions.

Well yeah, you *COULD* do that but...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

...if you EVER ACTUALLY *DID* you'd be putting yourselves up in front of a firing squad - which is EXACTLY where all you motherfuckers BELONG.

We cannot guarantee that they will, but we can provide what information we have to inform them of how to minimize risk.

So quote me something you've put out that MINIMIZES - rather than MAXIMIZES - risk. Ever since 1981 the focal point of your safe towing system has been the equivalent of a dangerously frayed towline.

The tandem operating rules are one such means of informing pilots.

And, of course, their eleven year old skydiving students. And, of course, in the wake of what happened seventeen miles across the border three years minus eleven days ago - not to mention what happened with the final foot launched "flight" Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's tandem hang gliding thrill ride career - you made it mandatory for all foot launch tandem thrill ride operators to advise their "students" of the danger of unhooked launches. Great job, dude!

The definition of a tandem site is another.

Hard to argue that THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8742/16955361166_44a4a473af_o.png


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16975005972_c450d2cdda_o.png

wasn't a tandem site on the early afternoon of 2015/03/27.

And so on...

Yadda yadda yadda...

...our SOPs are essentially a collection of good advice accrued over the years, often from experience gained in past accidents.

- Perish the thought that any should be based on sound aeronautical THEORY and rigorous engineering standards - the way things are done in REAL aviation. Just the opinions of the motherfuckers writing the reports of the fatalities for which they were responsible. If the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style release that's fairly obvious proof that the "pilot" made no effort to effect the easy reach. So the SOP is to not think you can fix a bad thing and because you don't want to start over, but to instead release before there is a problem. And/Or to use an even more appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.
- You name ONE "ACCIDENT" from anywhere in the history of the sport that yielded useful information - anything that hadn't been blindingly obvious at least half a century prior the existence of this abortion of a flavor of aviation.

We can't say that if you follow the SOPs you won't get hurt...

I can. I can say that IF you institute a hook-in check procedure for foot launch flights you WILL NOT EVER launch unhooked. Argue otherwise but cite me ONE instance of a hook-in checker EVER having launched unhooked. And not one of you u$hPa motherfuckers does anything but piss all over the concept of a hook-in check despite the fact that it's been mandated for every launch for every flight for every rating in your own SOPs for the past 34 years minus a month and a half.

...but we CAN say that if you don't follow the SOPs you are increasing your chances of being hurt or killed.

HOW can you say that?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

You're not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of your association. So how can you POSSIBLY know whether following your SOPs DE or IN creases a motherfucker's chances of getting killed?

This motherfucker:

25-23223
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


was flying the safest equipment possible - including the safest weak link ever used in any flavor of aviation in the history of the planet. It was so safe that at Zapata well under two years prior comp pilots broke six in a row in light morning conditions and Russell had to tell everybody to double them up - cut the safety margin in HALF - in order to get them up.

So what was it that he did wrong and/or happened to him that could've been preventable? I never heard. All I know is that everyone and his dog almost immediately became happy with Tad-O-Links which astronomically increase the level of convenience at the cost of catastrophically decreasing the safety of the towing operation.

(I'm speaking here of SOPs related to flight...nobody so far has been killed by violating an elections committee SOP.)

I think killing some/all of you elected u$hPa motherfuckers would do absolute wonders for the sport of hang gliding on a global scale.

Our SOPs are reviewed and amended regularly as we gain more knowledge and learn from experience.

- Tell me about some of these regular amendments and the shit you've learned from experience. Damn near everything I've seen since coming into the sport 35 years ago has been a steady degradation.
- And who's "WE"? Sounds like the only people privileged enough to be able view crash reports are Tim and maybe one or two Executive Committee motherfuckers.

We're working on the accident reporting system revision...

Any chance any of us muppets could be permitted to be involved with this "accident" "reporting" revision (degradation)? Just kidding.

...but it's slow going...

No shit. REALLY?

...as we work out the details of confidentiality of information and protecting it from being used against us through legal discovery.

'Specially when...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25656
The young girl who died hang gliding solo

Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC

Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)

...people of varying ages are involved. Years. Decades even. Gotta make sure we're doing things right.

I'm not the expert on exactly how that's being done, but there's a framework in place for it and it's in process.

Nah, Mark. This is the one thing I totally trust you on. Can't think of any better qualified expert on this aspect of the sport.

As to this specific accident...

Oh. So it was an ACCIDENT. Thank you for clarifying that much.

...I've heard nothing as yet about the current state of the investigation.

And knowing how deeply concerned you are with these sorts o' deals I can only imagine the torment you're experiencing.

I'm confident that when it's complete and there's something to report, I'll hear about it then.

What relief that will be for you. And *I'M* totally confident that IF we muppets ever get ANYTHING it will be of exactly the same quality that the official u$hPa Mike Haas and Zack Marzec reports were.

Unless there's a compelling reason not to report on it...

As everyone and his dog bloody well knew the instant this one first came across the wire there would be. MULTIPLE really compelling reasons not to.

...I'll pass along what I know.

Or we can just go out and scoop something of the same quality off the front lawn for instant gratification.

If there is a compelling reason which prevents me from discussing it, I'll tell you that too.

Why don't you just do that right now so we'll be freed up to concentrate on compelling issues like:
- Dana did by far have her personal best
- The Euro continues to plummet
- Somebody special may be coming to the ECC
- Live Tracking at the Quest Air Open National Championships

If I haven't said anything about it, then it's because I don't have anything to say yet.

- Define "YET". What's the outside estimate of what "yet" might entail?
- Quote me something you've EVER said that's been of any value whatsoever to the recreational pilot - minus, of course, your statements confirming what we already knew about u$hPa's total betrayal of it's original mission statement.
- Who the fuck are you to be the point source for information about shit like this?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Tommy Thompson - 2015/04/17 02:01:17 UTC
Whitewater

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 01:19:44 UTC

Each pilot is personally and individually responsible for their own safety. That is a fundamental tenet of our sport.

Mark, that is true for all rated pilots, can't, shouldn't, better not be for un-rated pilots.

Define an unrated "PILOT". Is an eleven year old who gets to hop on a hang glider tandem thrill ride for a skydiving lesson 'cause he wasn't big enough to qualify for a ride on the zip line the previous afternoon some kind of unrated PILOT?

Take that same eleven year old to Kitty Hawk Kites, let him watch the training video, give him a little instruction at the top of the dune, clip him into a 140 Eaglet trainer, wire assist his launch, and he can and probably WILL be an ACTUAL *PILOT* In Command of his aircraft for a few seconds in an environment in which he can pretty safely operate.

How 'bout a twenty-five year old just signed off for his One by some douchebag like Tom Galvin or Bart Weghorst? Should we assume that somebody "trained" and signed off by douchebags not themselves qualifiable as pilots - under EXISTING u$hPa SOPs - qualifies as a pilot?

...that's where USHPA's SOPs and the Tandem, and Safety committees step in...

Here's u$hPa's current Safety and Training Committee:

Safety & Training - Greg Kelley (VOL)
- Kay Tauscher - Michael Holmes - Felipe Amunategui - Ryan Voight - Paul Voight - Steve Kroop - Matt Taber - Bruce Weaver - David Glover - Josh Cohn - Josh Pierce - Steve Rodrigues - Ken Grubbs - Paul Olson - Alan Crouse - Dennis Pagen - Mitch Shipley

Pretty big committee for an association that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association.

...isn't and can't be in the business of keeping pilots "safe", donchya think? So what is it that you think these motherfuckers are putting their time, energy, expertise into? When was the last time the committee or any of its individual members produced anything tangible? Positive, I mean.

...if not for the SOPs the FAA would never have given the exception.

Well yeah. But the deal is that you present the FAA with a solid looking set of SOPs to OBTAIN the exemption. But then after you've got it you just gut all the substance out of the SOPs - delete clauses about certified gliders, change "Requirements" to...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 10:11:31 UTC

Oh, btw... before you go there, cuz it is where you're headed... please note the word "Guidelines".

As I said.
Been through this shit a million freaking times.
Please quit trying to educate me about my job.

..."Guidelines" - then you go ahead and do whatever the fuck you feel like and tell everybody that he and he alone is responsible for whatever happens to him. Fundamental tenet of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...OUR sport. Mark G. Forbes says so. Love it or...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

...leave it, motherfucker.

...doing wingovers at 600ft AGL...

...Rooney Link induced tumbles at under 150 feet...

...buzzing a ramp or crowd in a tandem glider...

...skipping a hook-in check...

...may be lots of fun, but un-rated pilots get hurt that way, the HGing pilot in command has been doing low alt wingovers for years, never had a problem, never seen a problem, but because of the information only USHPA has, SOP's can change accordingly to better protect the un-rated pilot (student/introductory).

Name ONE "student", passenger, thrill rider who HAS been scratched as a consequence of any of this bullshit. They're ACTUALLY getting killed by shit drivers, back and front end weak link blows, releases within easy reach, skipped hook-in checks, Bo Hagewood.

The below image...

It's text now. (You're welcome.)

...is a good example.

http://ozreport.com/docs/ushpatandem.htm

USHPA UPDATE
June 29, 2012

USHPA Headquarters
Contact:
Martin Palmaz,
Executive Director
800-616-6888

New Tandem Operating Limitations - EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY

Dear Tandem Program Pilots,

At the Spring USHPA Board of Directors meeting, the Tandem Committee proposed new operating limits for tandem pilots and instructors, which were approved by board action. Subsequent to the board meeting, these have been incorporated into the Pilot Proficiency Program SOP 12-02. The new operating limits and requirements are summarized below for your convenience; please refer to the SOP 12-02 for a complete description of all operating requirements.

The new operating limitations are primarily focused on tandem instruction, which is, training flights that occur between a Tandem Instructor (T-3) and a Student-rated member (30-Day Student-rated [H-0/P-0] member or annual Pilot member with a Student rating.) These flights are considered instructional regardless of whether remuneration is provided for the service or not. According to the FAA exemption, flights under these parameters are for training purposes only.

While tandems for instructional purposes have stricter operational limits to protect all parties, some recreational tandems are also subject to these new operating limitations. While the USHPA encourages every tandem flight to operate within these limits, purely recreational tandems which are flown with Novice-rated pilot member passengers or higher may operate under slightly less stringent limitations which are also outlined below.

ALL Tandem Pilots & Instructors (T-1, T-2 & T-3)
1. Participants in a tandem flight occurring at a USHPA insured site must remain in the glider for the entirety of the flight. Bungee jumping, parachuting, wing suiting, base jumping, or any other activities where a participant disconnects from the glider are not permitted.
2. It is recommended that all tandem flight maneuvers be within the glider manufacturer's suggested operating limitations, and within the pilot-in-command's level of skill. It is recommended that maneuvers beyond a 60 degree bank and 45 degree pitch angle not take place below 1,000 feet AGL.
3. Tandem pilots using surface towing or aero-towing must verify that tow operators and aero-tow pilots and equipment meet USHPA and FAA requirements. Failure to comply with this requirement is cause for revocation of the tandem pilot's rating.
4. In addition to strict adherence to the Tandem safety Standard Operating Procedures in 12-02.13 and 12-05.05, all pilots will be sure to perform the following safety checks before each tandem operation:
a. Clear any spectators from the immediate launch area.
b. Check that the areas of launch and landing meet or exceed the criteria described in the USHPA Tandem Approved Sites document.

Hang Gliding Tandem Pilots & Instructors (T-1, T-2 & T-3)
1. Tandem pilots are prohibited from executing Stalls or Spins or from flying beyond 90 degrees of bank or pitch angle with passengers not holding a minimum of a Novice rating (H2, P2) as described in the Pilot Proficiency Program.

Paragliding Tandem Pilots & Instructors (T-1, T-2 & T-3)
1. Tandem pilots are prohibited from executing hard round spirals, the SAT maneuver, Stalls, and Spins or from flying beyond 90 degrees of bank or pitch angle with passengers not holding a minimum of a Novice rating (P2/H2) as described in the Pilot Proficiency Program.

Hang Gliding and Paragliding Tandem Instructors (T-3 Only)
1. Tandem flights with Student rated USHPA member temporary cards are considered instructional and not for sport or recreational purposes.
2. During all training flights (as defined by FAA Tandem Exemption #4721 and USHPA SOP 12-02.12 and SOP 12-02.22), all occupants shall remain in the glider at all times, at all sites.
3. The maximum allowable combined passenger and pilot hook-in weight must be within the manufacturer's placarded limitation of the glider.

Hang Gliding Tandem Instructor (T-3)
1. Maximum allowable passenger "hook-in" weight not to exceed 140% of the pilot-in command "hook-in" weight.
2. Maximum allowable wing loading not to exceed 2.25 lbs. per sq. ft.

USHPA believes the above changes are necessary both to preserve USHPA's Insurance Program as well as comply with the requirements set forth in the FAA exemption. Your support of these new operating limitations is very much appreciated. The full SOP 12-02 can be accessed here.

Thank you for your attention!
------------------
Martin Palmaz, Executive Director
United States Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association, Inc.
This is flying. This is freedom.
executivedirector@ushpa.aero

Tel : 719-632-8300 / 800-616-6888 (8 a.m. - 5 p.m. MST)
Fax : 719-632-6417 http://www.ushpa.aero / http://www.ushpa.org
US Mail: PO Box 1330, Colorado Springs, CO 80901-1330
UPS / FEDEX: 1685 W Uintah St, Colorado Springs, CO 80904
The US Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association is a 501 c 3 non-profit dedicated to promoting the aviation sports of hang gliding and paragliding throughout the United States. Learn more on our website at http://www.ushpa.aero or http://www.ushpa.org

Fuck the paragliding stuff, not interested. Now tell me just how many of the "problems" addressed by this bullshit have ever been ACTUAL problems.

Now how 'bout THIS:

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1

USHGA - 2006/03/15

Safety Notice

HG Tandem Aerotow Operations

It was noticed over a number of years there have been a number of fatalities to participants in hang glider aerotow instruction. The president of the USHPA, therefore, formed an Ad Hoc Joint Committee of the chairs of Safety and Training, Tandem and Towing to investigate this, appointing the Chair of Safety and Training to preside. Tandem instructors Matt Taber and David Glover were invited to participate.

This committee reviewed a number of possible causes for aerotow tandem fatalities. One particular possible cause stood out as predominate. This was the common belief that when a glider gets low on tow the pilot can safely push out and let the glider climb up to the level of the tow plane safely because the glider will not stall under tow.

This issue is so important that this committee and the towing committee have recommended that the following message be sent to all aerotow pilots and all Aero-Tug pilots with a particular emphasis to aerotow tandem pilots.

Experiences in hang glider tandem flight using aero-tow launch along with analysis of accidents and incidents that have occurred during such flight strongly suggest, for safety reasons, the following cautions be observed.

If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 feet). The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

Towing tandems requires extra awareness on the part of the tug pilots, particularly in the early part of the tow to help the tandem pilot avoid the development of critical situations. Prior to the start of the tow, proper tow speeds based on the gross weight of the tandem glider should be determined. Greater total weight will require correspondingly higher tow speeds. It is CRITICAL to understand that the towed hang glider is at risk when the tow is slow and the glider is low. When towing a tandem glider, the tug pilot should fly the appropriate airspeed to keep the tandem glider in the proper position and if there is any doubt the tug pilot should fly slightly faster and avoid flying slightly slow. The tug pilot should avoid pulling up abruptly and leaving the tandem glider low. If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider, releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.

These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.

To insure that all AT rated tandem pilots are notified, we are asking that the AT-rated tandem pilots sign on to the USHPA web site (http://www.ushga.org) and fill out a form that states that they have read and understand the safety notice. If you are an AT-rated tandem pilot and do not have computer access (ie. no email address) you will be sent the form to fill out and sign, and a USHPA addressed, stamped envelope. Understand that we are not asking if you agree with the safety notice, but that you have read it and understand what it says. You will need to do this in order to have your tandem rating renewed.

Flying with a tandem passenger is a special privilege which the FAA allows us to grant to qualified pilots. These pilots are supposed to be highly skilled. We expect tandem flights to be safer than solo flights, not more dangerous. Safety records do not currently seem to support this expectation. We expect tandem flights under the rules of the USHPA to be conducted in such a way that this expectation is realized.

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

List the ways that gliders can "become unattached" from the tug and think of...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...some ways we might be able to minimize the likelihood of that happening.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 02:27:18 UTC

Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

Nah, don't start getting more explicit, Mark. There's no end of trouble that can lead to.

Each pilot in command is responsible for their own safety.

And STILL the grammar sucks.

A tandem student on an instructional flight is not the pilot in command; he's a student under instruction.

So who was the pilot in command on...

KSNV-CNN-1-1916
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


...this one, Mark? Kelly? The person of the varying age? The conspicuously unidentified driver? Did it ultimately matter to the two people who went briefly airborne? Ooh! Thought of another one! How 'bout the towline? Could that qualify as the Pilot In Command? If so could I have the honor of nominating it?

In that specific case, the tandem instructor has primary responsibility for safe flight.

My vote's still for the towline.

To that end, USHPA provides tandem instructors with additional training and evaluation, as well as additional information.

How'd Kelly do with this? Any chance we muppets could be privy to this valuable information? So's we can make extra sure to totally ignore it?

When it comes to our attention that tandem instructors are engaged in flying maneuvers that we consider to be unreasonably hazardous...

Like, in this, case...

Zack C - 2011/03/04 05:29:28 UTC

As for platform launching, I was nervous about it when I started doing it. It looked iffy, like things could get bad fast. I've since logged around a hundred platform launches and have seen hundreds more. Never once was there any issue. I now feel platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air (in the widest range of conditions). You get away from the ground very quickly and don't launch until you have plenty of airspeed and excellent control.

...platform towing on...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41619
Goodbye Bob K?

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/04 03:03:06 UTC

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've attached the definition of an approved launch site so that you may learn, instead of spouting ignorantly. FAA has had that clause in the exemption for decades, and we have a document (included with the tandem packet) which defines what such a site is. Pilots have been towing at Jean Lake for many years. It's a fine towing site; wide open and flat, and fits the definition of an approved tandem site.

...the very definition of a u$hPa approved tandem training tow site.

...we notify them and we update the related SOPs as needed.

- Any chance you could put these notifications up on the u$hPa website in the "Learn to Fly" section to make us muppets aware of what's going on and better inform potential skydiving students like Arys and his family? Just kidding.

- So, can cite any of these notifications the related SOPs that were "needed" to fix actual problems? Just kidding.

In the case you cite, we sent out a notice to tandem instructors about this because we didn't want to wait until a board meeting to deal with it.

Good job, "WE"! No bungee jumping, parachuting, wing suiting, base jumping (not covered by the previously mentioned "parachuting"); avoid low level aerobatics, stalls (Stalls? They're dangerous? I thought they were totally benign.), spins; stay within the glider's hook-in weight range; never fly with a student who weighs three time what you do; don't tow from a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place; try not to run any spectators over with the tug or truck. Glad we were able to learn all this from decades worth of experience and accidents and get it out in print - for all three tandem drivers with third or better grade reading comprehension levels to absorb and contemplate.

The point remains, in any case.

No shit.

USHPA cannot guarantee the safety of pilots.

Maybe it would help if you included sections on the best weak links to use as pitch and lockout protectors, the most easily reachable release locations, the best color for hook knife handles, how to most effectively utilize your glider as a crumple zone. (Where's Peter Birren with his award winning Linknife, Birrenator, Hewett Bridle, and Infallible Weak Link when you really need him? Just checked his inbred little cult. Not a murmur from him or any of his pet douchebags since five days prior to the crash. Just like Zack Marzec.)

Pilots are responsible for that.

Name some u$hPa members who are actual PILOTS. I don't think I could come up with a dozen with gun to my head.

We can provide information and guidance, but we cannot prevent an accident from happening, even in cases where the pilot is following all of our SOPs.

Like:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

KSNV-9-24015-6


So if these "pilots" are following all of your SOPs and getting killed - occasionally along with their people of varying ages - dead as doornails anyway and you're not issuing SOPs revisions in their wakes then tell me just how good your SOPs are? Can you cite some examples from REAL aviation in which people are crashing and burning when there was nothing wrong with them, the SOPs, both?

We just had a copilot lock the Pilot In Command out of the cockpit and dive a passenger jet - with 149 other people on board - into a mountain. Their equivalent of Mitch, the very experienced tow administrator, figured out exactly what happened in a couple days, told everyone on the planet without first clearing things with Tim, Rich, and you, and SOPs all over the world started changing left and right like they were going outta style - which they were. Compare/Contrast - motherfucker.

There are just too many unanticipated circumstances that might contribute to an accident.

Name some. The driver thought the glider was off tow and made an abrupt turn and Kelly's release wasn't easily reachable enough and his Industry Standard weak link didn't break when it was supposed to. Yeah, I guess those were all unanticipated circumstances. Like who'da thunk that the momma Grizzly would've gotten that pissed of when you grabbed her cub to take a selfie.

When we identify a pattern or a common root cause (not hooked in, high winds, extreme maneuvers, etc.) then we address that with operating limits in the SOPs.

- Patterns or common root causes that aren't "WE" ourselves.

- So how many more people of varying ages do you think we're gonna need to kill before we identify the pattern or common root cause at the core of this one?

- So all that fuckin' useless crap from the advisory quoted by Tommy is the result of you motherfuckers identifying patterns or a common root causes of crashes?

- What operating limits did you come up with after you identified the pattern or common root cause of "not hooked in". Lemme guess...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

You've got to hook in? Period?

What a total load o' crap.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Tommy Thompson - 2015/04/17 10:42:32 UTC
Whitewater

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 02:27:18 UTC

When we identify a pattern or a common root cause (not hooked in, high winds, extreme maneuvers, etc.) then we address that with operating limits in the SOPs.

Nobody could expect anything more, USHPA is the only resource for the common root causes because each site is like an island unto itself (for the most part).

I hope that was sarcasm, Tommy.

Brian Scharp - 2015/04/17 15:06:31 UTC

Or redact it.

In Canada when you redact stuff they keep you in jail until it comes out the other end.

Swift - 2015/04/17 18:52:20 UTC

Joe Wilson Moment

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/17 01:19:44 UTC

I've heard nothing as yet about the current state of the investigation.

Unbelievable!

No, I believe it. I have no doubt whatsoever that these motherfuckers are kept and stay out of the loop so's they can maintain deniability and stay shielded from perjury charges.

I'm confident that when it's complete and there's something to report, I'll hear about it then.

You are confident that in a few weeks or so...

I'm pretty sure we're looking at...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25656
The young girl who died hang gliding solo

Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC

Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)

...years here.

...you are going to hear something?

Unless there's a compelling reason not to report on it...

Go no further. We know the rest.

No, let him go further. Obviously we know the rest - but I never tire of hearing it anyway.

I'll pass along what I know.

Unless there is a compelling reason not to report on "it".

If there is a compelling reason which prevents me from discussing it, I'll tell you that too.

Mark, you should really take your own advice and stop digging the hole deeper.

Nah, let him keep on digging. We can always use more lunatic contradictory quotes.

If I haven't said anything about it, then it's because I don't have anything to say yet.

And the circle is complete. We are back to square one where you want us to believe that you have heard "nothing" re: USHPA/Two Dead on Hang Glider investigation.

Unbelievable.

Again.
And again.

Maybe not. The only reason this asshole is posting at all is 'cause he's seriously worried that his carefully crafted little world is teetering on the brink of implosion. You can bet your bottom dollar that they'd have held off on going after Bob for at least another six months if they could've foreseen Arys.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Mitch Shipley - 2015/04/17 21:44:06 UTC

Mitch here, your Hang Gliding Accident Committee Chair. For the reasons Mark Forbes has articulated well (and a few more actually) the accident committee doesn't generally post to public forums. That said, its fair for the membership to wonder what happened in accidents and to hope that, especially for the serious ones, USHPA is actively engaged ASAP to find out what happened, derive lessons learned and put those out to the membership, quickly when warranted - that last part being the highest priority of the Accident Reporting Committee (ARC).

With regards to this accident, I'd like to offer some facts to assure our membership that their ARC and USHPA is in fact actively engaged. I learned of the accident the day it happened (Friday 27MAR15) and by midnight I had talked with an experienced local pilot who agreed to assist in the investigation and we had a good idea of who the tandem instructor was. A second local pilot was enlisted on Saturday and he contacted the Las Vegas police (the investigative lead for the accident) and offered our assistance in the investigation. By Sunday we had contacted the chairs of USHPA Accident Reporting, Safety, Towing and Tandem to assist in the investigation and conducted a conference call (that included the USHPA President, Executive Director and Attorney) to go over what we knew about the accident and form a continued plan of action for the investigation.

Since then we have independently analyzed what we have and continued to assist the local police with their investigation, which likely will take some time (weeks) to finalize, as is the case with most aviation accident investigations. Barring any findings that warrant telling USHPA pilots immediately for safety reasons (and we don't have any findings like that to date) there will be no reports about what happened until after the investigation is complete to preclude putting out speculative or incorrect information.

Mitch here...

Oh good. Your fourth ever post to The Davis Show. Plus a whole ONE...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...to The Jack Show. Let me thank you on behalf of everyone for not spamming us too badly.

...your Hang Gliding Accident Committee Chair.

Not MY Hang Gliding Accident Committee Chair - motherfucker. The last one we had that even tried to do any good was Luen Miller.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

WE WANT ROONEY! WE WANT ROONEY! WE WANT ROONEY!

For the reasons Mark Forbes has articulated well...

Ain't he just super at articulating stuff well? Is that a natural gift or does he get coaching somewhere?

...(and a few more actually)...

...(which, as this is a particularly sensitive issue involving the death of a person of a varying age, I am unable to articulate at this time)...

...the accident committee doesn't generally post to public forums.

- Or...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


...any fuckin' where else.

- So what was stopping you from posting a week ago when The Davis Show wasn't a public forum?

- Oh. So the problem is that it's PUBLIC. So I guess it's a safe bet you won't be publishing anything in the magazine.

That said, its fair for the membership to wonder what happened in accidents...

Just as long as it doesn't...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

Hi folks,

I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.

Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

...SPECULATE on anything - and unleash the waves of death and destruction that always brings. Really, this is most gracious of you to tell the membership it's fair to wonder what happened. I'm no longer a member so I'll respect your authority and not wonder what happened - or maybe I'll just wonder what happened unfairly.

...and to hope that, especially for the serious ones...

But not so much for the so-so ones like this Jean Lake deal.

...USHPA is actively engaged ASAP to find out what happened, derive lessons learned and put those out to the membership, quickly when warranted - that last part being the highest priority of the Accident Reporting Committee (ARC).

Get fucked, Mitch. There haven't been any lessons to be learned in any of these since Wilbur and Orville figured out what was going on with adverse yaw and slapped a rudder on their plane.

With regards to this accident...

Oh. So you seem to have already determined that this was an ACCIDENT. Maybe there really WILL be some lessons to learn from your investigation.

I'd like to offer some facts to assure our membership that their ARC and USHPA is in fact actively engaged.

- Well just make up some then. That's always worked before.

- We KNOW you motherfuckers are actively engaged. We also, from decades worth experience and totally stunning admissions from Mark G. Forbes, know what, in fact, you motherfuckers are actively engaged IN.

I learned of the accident the day it happened...

We all did.

...(Friday 27MAR15)...

Nice logical date format there, Mitch. Is this a hint of things to come?

...and by midnight I had talked with an experienced local pilot...

- Whom, due to the extremely sensitive nature of this investigation, you are not at liberty to name.
- What KIND of a pilot? Hang glider? Paraglider? Cessna? Riverboat?
- HOW experienced?
- Experienced at WHAT?

I'm guessing the most experienced hang glider tandem truck tow pilot you had in the Vegas area was last seen stretched out under a sheet next to the pile of broken aluminum and torn Dacron that had been his glider a few hours earlier. So just how much better is this anonymous asshole?

...who agreed to assist in the investigation...

Assist doing WHAT in the investigation? The fact that we don't even know who he is beyond him being an experienced local pilot who agreed to assist in the investigation is a pretty good clue.

...and we had a good idea of who the tandem instructor was.

Great job, Sherlock and Watson. We had a good enough idea of who the tandem instructor WAS...

John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Hawaii - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo
- PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, TAND INST
- Exp: 2015/06/30

...that we harvested his information off the database before you motherfuckers could get to and shred it.

A second local pilot...

But unfortunately, not an EXPERIENCED one like the first guy.

...was enlisted on Saturday and he contacted the Las Vegas police (the investigative lead for the accident) and offered our assistance in the investigation.

Well I know I'LL rest a lot easier knowing that the police are being assisted in the investigation by a crack team of totally disinterested experts.

Hey Mitch... How come Mark identified these guys as...

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.

..."two of the local instructors" and your story doesn't seem to be matching up very well? Haven't really got the basic parts of your stories straight yet?

By Sunday we had contacted the chairs of USHPA Accident Reporting, Safety, Towing and Tandem to assist in the investigation and conducted a conference call (that included the USHPA President, Executive Director and Attorney)...

- By Sunday we'd watched a Skype interview with the family members who are the best witness and most independent witnesses to this incident. They obviously hadn't had enough skydiving instruction and experience to attempt to manipulate anything to their legal advantage. Weren't making any noises about legal actions and didn't appear to have had a conference call with their attorney - like you did.

- The u$hPa Attorney. What, exactly, is his area of expertise? Is it typical for NTSB crash investigators to keep their attorney that well tuned in to their findings?

...to go over what we knew about the accident and form a continued plan of action for the investigation.

Richard Hass - 62602 - P4 - 1998/09/01 - Mike Eberle - FL PA CL FSL HA RLF RS TUR XC

Martin Palmaz - Colorado - 40148
- H1 - 1984/04/21 - Lawrence Battaile
- P4 - 2003/08/26 - Alejandro Palmaz - FL ST TFL TST CL FSL HA PS RLF RS TUR XC - TOW TECH

Timothy Herr - 48274

Sounds like ya got a real crack team assembled to handle this one, Mitch. Keep up the great work!

So what's this "PLAN of ACTION" for the "investigation"? It was a goddam seven second platform tow that began and ended in wide fuckin' open dry lakebed with a handful of horrified prospective skydiving students watching the whole thing from the back of the truck. It's not like you need to ping the whole fucking Indian Ocean bottom to even determine where it went down.

Since then we have independently analyzed what we have...

Who has the video card? How come you haven't mentioned it? Did one of you independently accidently swallow it? This investigation is taking a lot longer than you originally estimated because you haven't gotten it back yet?

...and continued to assist the local police with their investigation, which likely will take some time (weeks) to finalize...

Wow! They must be doing a REALLY THOROUGH job on this one! Just think how long it could take WITHOUT you guys assisting them.

...as is the case with most aviation accident investigations.

Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25656
The young girl who died hang gliding solo

Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC

Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)

We know. And that's WITHOUT any of us muppets speculating.

Barring any findings that warrant telling USHPA pilots...

Fuck those HPAC and HGAF pilots.

...immediately for safety reasons (and we don't have any findings like that to date)...

Wow! What a relief THAT is! So we can just keep taking people of varying ages up for their skydiving lessons using the same procedures and equipment that Kelly was and expect better results! Is this a great sport or what!

...there will be no reports about what happened until after the investigation is complete to preclude putting out speculative or incorrect information.

And I guess if you posted photographs of the "release" "system" Kelly was using that would constitute speculative or incorrect information.

Can't you even give us transcripts of your extensive interviews with the family members in Farmington? We've already heard from them on the TV news broadcasts? Wouldn't YOUR transcripts help to undo some of the serious damage we've already suffered as a result of some of this information going REALLY PUBLIC prior to you're getting the report to read the way you want it to?

Think you're gonna be able to publish a summary of your findings in just one magazine issue or that you'll hafta put it out as a serial over the course of six to eight editions when it's finally ready in 2017?

Get fucked, Mitch. Don't think for a nanosecond that we're gonna let you get away with this bullshit. We're a lot better at debunking it than you'll EVER be generating it. We're also a lot smarter.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Jim Gaar - 2015/04/18 02:15:35 UTC

Thanks Mitch.

I too would like to kiss your ass in thanks for all that fine work you've done so far and telling us less than ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this double fatal.

Tow me up. I'll find my way down

Hopefully as quickly and efficiently as Kelly and Arys did.

James Gaar - 73864 - H3 - 2005/07/25 - Len Smith - AT FL PL PA CL FSL RLF

So just when was the last time somebody towed you up so you could find your way back down, Mister...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Carful who you put stock in mate.
Calling blindrodie a fool? Seriously? Easily discounted?
You may not have an understanding of who you're brushing off... In lieu of some people that have been listening to the rantings of, I kid you not, a convicted pedophile. I'm willing to look past the messenger... To a point. But gimme a break... You're blowing off a tug pilot instead?

Zack. . Till you've got data showing that 130lb line doubled up breaks at the single 200lb line strength... Not 200lbs...Then your argument holds no water.
On one side, you're saying that 130lb line breaks at 100lbs... So what makes you believe that 200lb line breaks at 200?

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

...Fake Tug Pilot / Not A Convicted Pedophile?

Scott C. Wise - 2015/04/18 05:40:22 UTC

There's a critical FACT that thousands of people already now. That would be that a USHPA Certified Tandem pilot was operating his hang gliding tandem tow business in violation of Federal Bureau of Land Managements requirements that any business secure a permit before conducting operations.

Absolutely critical to really understanding what precipitated this glider slamming in.

Either J K Harrison knew he was in violation of this requirement - or he SHOULD have known - and gotten the proper permit(s).

Big fuckin' deal. How 'bout Emperor Bob here at Torrey:






clearly, flagrantly, deliberately violating USHGA's then 31 year old hook-in check regulation - same way Tad Hurst did on his last flight at Torrey, or anywhere else, six years plus eight days earlier?

There is only one way this goes. J K Harrison was irresponsible or worse.

I'm sure the Moorhead-Schneider family is furious about this issue of Kelly not having the appropriate BLM permit while running this operation. It just adds immeasurably to their degrees of grief and pain.

His failure to follow the rules led down the road to his and his passenger's death.

What are you smoking and where can I not go to get some?

How is it that USHPA Tandem Instructors are failing to take rules/requirements/policies seriously?

Well, ya gotta give him credit for having a release within easy reach and an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

What's going on at those Tandem Certification Clinics?

I dunno, Scott. Kelly might have been sick the day they spent on BLM permits.

Some fun and beer drinking and "Oh, by the way here's your tandem rating! yuk yuk Now get out there and make yourselves and the USHPA some money!"

If they did that what difference would it have made? What's the big fucking deal

I managed to survive my first tandem flight on 1982/09/19 without having been certified in a clinic. Clipped into a trainer on the way back to the shop with fellow Kitty Hawk instructor Lawrence Battaile - the guy who signed Martin Palmaz on his first and last hang glider rating on 1984/04/21. Did just fine (aside from going down like a fuckin' brick).

If you want to see the kind of tandem pilot behavior (PG in this case) the USHPA KNOWS about, but isn't doing anything about, then watch the video at this (US Hawks) link -

http://tinyurl.com/m5zk2qh

You'll find two tandem paraglider pilots with two very young passengers doing preplanned STUNTS for the excitement of their pre-adolescent joyride passengers. Check out around the 19 minute mark. Look like responsible tandem piloting?

Yeah Scott, it totally DOES. Ignoring all the political bullshit and price tag I thought it was totally delightful. I wouldn't hesitate to allow a person of a varying age of mine to take an identical hop. And I'm no huge fan of paragliders either.

This video has been seen by the USHPA's lawyer, Tim Herr. Has something to do with the accident that happens near the beginning of the video. The tandem pilots are employed by Air California Adventure Inc. at Torrey Pines.

So? Cite the SOPs they were violating and/or tell me about some of the incidents in which people have been scratched as results of that flavor of flying? But maybe you and Bob can get some more of your nanny state bullshit on the books - along with the helmets crap - to kill that avenue of fun for everyone.

If you think you know how safe and responsible USHPA Certified Tandem pilots are then take a look at the reality. While watching ask yourself, "When will the next tandem passenger (and pilot?) die?

Based upon the data we have at our disposal... In the early spring of 2021 shortly after a hang glider mountain launch with a Pilot In Command who - like Bob and all his asshole buddies - never does hook-in checks.

It's time for the USHPA to !WAKE UP! and smell the coffee.

Get fucked, Scott. Stay the hell out of this Kelly/Arys issue - if you're not doing anybody any favors it's the opposition. Wanna do something useful then go after Sam - AND Bob - for THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


unpunished and conspicuously ignored Bob Show atrocity.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41697
Two Dead on Hang Glider

Bille Floyd - 2015/04/18 14:43:23 UTC

Scott C. Wise - 2015/04/07 05:36:31 UTC

There's a Felony involved in that action.

What exactly is the Felony your speaking of ?
A) Bob K getting booted.
B) J K Harrison had not secured the PERMIT that is REQUIRED for a business to operate on Jean Dry Lake Bed .

Because if your referring to the lack of securing the permit as being the felony ;

He's obviously not.

you sir are Wrong
it is only a misdemeanor , and punishable by usually only a warning for the first offense, and a small fine for the second offense.
Now Ask me how i know ; don't bother , (i admit i got a warning once) .

Scott C. Wise - 2015/04/18 05:40:22 UTC

Either J K Harrison knew he was in violation of this requirement - or he SHOULD have known - and gotten the proper permit(s). There is only one way this goes. J K Harrison was irresponsible or worse.

Your making a rather broad and unwarranted assumption here !

Not getting the , (usually FREE) use permit ; only saved Mr Harrison a bit of time and hassle , but it did NOT contribute to his death. Permit or no permit ; Jean dry-lake bed is an optimum place to do a tow operation. Something else killed the pilot and his passenger ;

The launch went off less than the usual optimal and, as we all know from decades worth of fatalities, the easy reach instantly became a totally fucking impossible reach.

and that something else , which has yet to be determined ,

Bullshit.

had absolutely NOTHING to do with his blowing off the use permit.

This makes a few times now, (on this Thread that i started) that you tried to link JK Harrisons death , with his not securing a use permit. So Please stop ; I am NOT stupid (.)

Yeah Scott. You're making Bille look like Stephen Hawking on this one.

Martin Henry - 2015/04/18 14:51:06 UTC

"Speck_out_hi" (for crying out loud... would it kill yah to sign your name?)...

Nah, but it WOULD get him kicked off again.

Do you seriously think a bureaucratic piece of paper is an important factor? Do you really think it is truly relevant to the loss of life?[/

He obviously does. He won't give up on harping on it.

Respectfully, get off your high horse an let the investigation assess...[/

You spelled "asses" wrong.

...and determine the failures that lead up the accident.[/

Fundamentally, allowing total assholes such as yourself into positions of control in the sport.

I'm interested in what went wrong. I would like to learn from the findings and implement (if necessary) changes to my own towing protocols. Constructive methodical investigations take time.[/

Go fuck yourself, Martin.

Your "side show bob" rant against USHPA and local land use permits may have some merit but I doubt it has any sort of relevance to the accident.

Davis Straub - 2015/04/18 15:56:30 UTC

"Speck_out_hi" (for crying out loud... would it kill yah to sign your name?)

Well, then for sure we would see that he has been kicked out of here before.

Yeah Davis. He HAS BEEN kicked out of there before. Certainly wasn't a matter of YOU kicking him out arbitrarily - and deleting an entire critically important historic thread in the process.