Towing Aloft

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Davis Straub - 2015/07/16 23:36:04 UTC

Hi Mark,

Do you know if Dennis is actually going to retire?
Is Jamie actually our CIVL Representative?
Who would you like to see as at Large BOD members?
BTW, this is Davis Straub asking.

Yeah, we know, Davis. It would be really tough for you to alter your fingerprint enough to got away with posting anything anonymously.

Dudley Mead - 2015/07/17 04:13:59 UTC
Dayton

One of the great things offered in the Oz Report is a forum for healthy debate.

Healthy for Davis and his pet cocksuckers like you. Any time his side starts getting ripped to shreds he starts editing, moving, deleting posts; burying, locking down, deleting topics; threatening and summarily banning opposition voices; playing child molester cards with his pet Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney cocksucker.

Unfortunately, when the debates turn anonymous, all credibility goes out the window...

Yeah. ALL credibility. Like Deep Throat had zero credibility 'cause he was anonymous and Nixon was oozing it 'cause he wasn't. In this case we can take whatever Mark G. Forbes says to the bank 'cause he uses his first and last name and throws his middle initial in for good measure.

...and what could have been a hearty and constructive exchange of viewpoints becomes an embarrassing and unproductive display of innuendo, mud slinging, and lies.

Definitely. So how come nonanonymous Mark G. Forbes hasn't identified any of Concerned Guys' charges as such?

The "Concerning Dennis Pagen" post is one of these worthless articles.

Obviously. Can't figure out why you feel the need to waste your breath telling us muppets it is.

Although I see very little (if anything) in the way of a cogent argument...

We can't either.

...if the authors really think there is an issue here let the them stand up and identify themselves to put value to their words.

Yes. If they identified themselves we would see very much (if not everything) in the way of a cogent argument.

To do otherwise immediately invalidates their argument.

I thought you saw very little (if anything) in the way of a cogent argument. So how can there be anything to invalidate?

The Hang vs. Para, safety, and women's support assertions are all unsubstantiated...

Well then, nobody has anything to worry about. Hard to understand why this topic has suddenly gone so viral.

...(and unbelievable based on Pagen's history)...

It's TOTALLY fucking believable based on Pagen's history. There's tons of stuff in those charges that I don't follow and about which I have no fuckin' clue. But EVERYTHING about which I DO have fuckin' clues syncs perfectly with my personal experiences and the written record.

...and the lack of modern technology as an argument is weak and pointless.

I'm sorry, I don't have a computer. Would it be too much trouble to print your post and mail it to me?

Furthermore, the reasoning for the author’s anonymity is silly.

Yeah, so Mark has just assured us. And we know we can trust him because he uses his middle initial.

There have been far more outspoken and outrageous critics of the organization than these folks (like Davis himself)...

Davis is a valuable Industry tool who can get away with doing whatever he feels like 'cause he crushes every effort of advancement and reform the moment it starts rearing its ugly head. And if you wanna dispute that start naming some significant advancements this sport has made within the past couple decades.

...and not only are they still thriving USHPA members, but they have been able to present logical opinions and have fostered positive changes.

Yeah, Davis has decided he's now happy with the Tad-O-Link.

Don't let the Oz Report devolve into an internet cesspool of anonymous name calling, back stabbing, cowardly hit-and-runs.

Nah, keep it the internet cesspool of Dedicated Sycophant name calling, back stabbing, cowardly hit-and-runs.

And while we're on the subject of cowardice...

The reason Dennis in the course of his entire miserable existence has never put anything in writing anywhere but on paper is 'cause he'd get his fuckin' head blown off two seconds after appearing anywhere with people capable of interacting. Bill Bryden made the mistake of trying to attack me on line and he was never heard from again anywhere after that.

Go fuck yourself. Ditto probably for everyone else in Ohio.

Dudley Mead - Dayton - 467 - Lifetime - H5 - 1980/02/06 - K. Koerwitz - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/07/18 01:10:39 UTC

I have not discussed that with Dennis, so I don't know. He said at a previous meeting that he was thinking of stepping out of active work on the BOD, though I don't recall a specific timeline. I personally appreciate the long history he has in our sport...

A track record that rivals the length of the standard aerotow weak link's.

...and the perspective that he brings to discussions.

Yeah, he's got a perspective alright.

Dick Heckman is another whose experience is valuable, together with his long history of working with FAA and within NASA as an engineer over the decades.

What are his takes on the Skyting Bridles and easily reachable and bent pin releases illustrated in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

I don't care if they do their presentations on clay tablets!

I'll add that to my list of things you don't care about.

It's the knowledge that matters, not whether it's "tweeted" or "instagrammed" or "snapchatted" or "tindered" or whatever.

And the knowledge, of course...

The lower you release, the greater the chance of canopy surge unless the tow operator releases the tow pressure.

...is absolutely impeccable.

Lemme ask ya this, Mark...

Compare the quality of information we've been getting on clay tablets the past couple decades to what we've been getting with ones and zeros. Where is some asshole doing his presentations on clay tablets likely getting the information that makes him such a great fucking resource? What are the chances we're gonna get brilliant insights on procedures, equipment, technological advancements from somebody who stays on top of what's going on in the sport via snail mail and composes his assessments on a typewriter?

(I have a feeling that last one might be kind of sketchy...but it's not my area of expertise.)

Yeah, we know exactly what your area of expertise is, Mark.

The USHPA president appoints the CIVL representative. I think that's Jamie, but it's not listed on the BOD roster on the website. I'll ask the office staff to add that item.

The five at-large seats at present are Paul Murdoch, Steve Rodrigues, Dennis Pagen, Jamie Shelden and Ryan Voight. I'm not going to comment in public about whether I'd like to replace any of them with someone else, and I don't have anyone specific in mind anyhow. Two of these (Paul and Steve) are serving on the EC, and I'd really like to keep both of them on. Paul's in his first term, serving as vice president, and Steve is serving as secretary. Paul's also chairing finance and insurance, which I share with him handling the insurance side of things. Steve's also chairing Organization and Bylaws, which is where his detail-oriented attention to organizational structure really shines. It may be jokingly known as the semicolon-placement committee, but getting the structural details right so that our SOPs don't have internal conflicts is important and also boring as hell.

Going around and changing all those "requirements" to "recommendations" and "guidelines"... I can imagine. And then you've got the really tricky stuff like making tandem training flights mandatory when you're getting rated by a thrill ride operation that sells tandem flights but of no value at a solo only operation.

Steve's good at it.

Funny that your 2009 Towing Committee Chairman asked T** at K*** S****** to rewrite the aerotowing SOPs when he had someone so good at that sorta thing right there at his disposal.

(Organizational detail: EC members have to be voting members of the board, and if they aren't elected regional directors, then they need to first be elected to at-large positions, *then* elected as officers. That's why we do the at-large election first, before the officer elections.)

They're all good folks...

Of course they are. Hard to imagine anything to the contrary.

...they all bring valuable knowledge to the board, and it's a pleasure to work with each of them.

I'll bet it is.

Ryan's young and innovative, but immersed in our sport from infancy.

Real shame that the accepted standards and practices changed and removed his instant hands free release from our quiver of towing emergency options.

Jamie's brilliant and brings a female viewpoint that we don't have enough of. Dennis has a wealth of experience and knowledge from the dawn of our sport to the present day, with an engineer's ability to reason and analyze.

Scale of Minus Five, T** at K*** S******, to Plus Ten....

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney. Rate Ryan, Jamie, and Dennis. Seven/Eight range? Quote some people quoting them and telling us how much they've done to advance them through their personal flying careers. (And this is coming from someone who started out with Dennis as his Number One hero in the sport.)

All of that said, we're always looking for talented folks who want to help out.

Yeah, and I know EXACTLY what kind of talents you want and the goals you need help with.

The best way to unseat someone who you think isn't doing a good job or doesn't share your views is to run against them in the election.

Otherwise the Nazi Party just degenerates into a vile dictatorship.

Or if you want to offer a "better" option for a director-at-large candidate, show up at the meetings, get involved as a volunteer, and show us all that you're the kind of person who we need to have as a voting member of our board. Nominations are open right now, and in fact the deadline is coming up fairly soon.

Do you have doughnuts at these meetings?

http://ushpa.aero/elections.asp
USHPA - Regional Elections

Anything and everything any of you motherfuckers is trying to accomplish I'm gonna be working for the opposite.

I just took another look at the current incarnation of your Mission Statement...

Safety. USHPA will steadily foster a culture of safety.

Not to PROMOTE safe practices or ADVANCE safety through superior procedures and technology but to STEADILY FOSTER a CULTure of safety.

- STEADILY. Certainly don't wanna speed things up or do anything better when opportunities arise. Keep doing what we've always been doing 'cause that's what we've always been doing and we've got a proven system that works. And since what we've always been doing has always been ten times worse than nothing at all we're gonna keep working on perfecting flare timing, enforcing use of the safest possible weak links, and making sure our releases are all within really easy reach and our hangs are really well checked. Killing eleven year old tandem students at higher rates than usual? Reprint the excellent article by Mike Meier, "Why Can't We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing?" in the magazine and sell more copies of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden - the technical information is an excellent and complete reference on towing equipment and procedures.

- FOSTER. Just keep pouring on lotsa water and and shoveling on lotsa manure. Something good is just bound to grow out of it.

- CULTure. Culture and Cult have the same etymology - big surprise. And that's exactly what we've got. A CULTure totally detached from established aviation / reality. In real aviation the weak link protects your aircraft against overloading, is specified for the particular aircraft by the manufacturer, and never comes into play. In hang gliding we've got a piece of fishing line that puts all our aircraft at 1.0 Gs, meets the expectations outlined in fourteen page magazine articles, and keeps us from getting into too much trouble six times in a row in light morning conditions.

The motherfuckers writing this crap must serve fifteen year apprenticeships learning how to give the appearance of saying the precise opposite of what they're actually saying.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

We've got half a dozen Davis Show assholes - Mark G. Forbes, Dudley Mead, Phil Sergent, Steve Rodrigues, Larry Howe, Paul Allen - jumping on the anonymity equals cowardice and zero credibility bandwagon (while doing nothing in the way of refuting any of the charges). Funny we never seem to hear any of this kinda outrage when:

- a Jack and Davis Show Peanuts (Dennis Wood) or Oakdude (Paul Somebody) is busy pissing all over T** at K*** S******

- every tow park operator in the country has banned T** at K*** S****** from his operation without publicly saying so and specifying the reason(s)

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is citing the opinions and insider stories of his scores of imaginary friends and Industry Experts who don't post cuz it's generally a bitchfest around here

- the latest anonymous driver has towed his person or two into a fatal lockout or inconvenienced the glider into a fatal harmless stall

- some instructor's product has just run off a cliff without his glider

- Davis reports that somebody has been banned

- one of the members of the Jean Lake accident investigation team swallows the video card

- u$hPa puts out a fake double fatality report with an eleven year old kid innocent victim for half a dozen privileged information decimators and specifies that it is intended for members only, may be downloaded for personal use but may not be uploaded or re-posted to another website and that by clicking on the button below you agree to these restrictions

And lemme tell ya sumpin', motherfuckers...

T** at K*** S****** put his name on a draft letter to the FAA and posted it publicly for anyone and everyone to see and take issue with and/or address the problems specified - pretty much all transcripts of u$hPa's public incident reports and quotes from its Accident Review and Towing Committee Chairmen - and guess what happened.

So you know EXACTLY what you can do with your attacks on the anonymity issue and charges of cowardice.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Pretty serious and undisputed charges against Dennis, been up for well over two days, 28 posts, fourteen individual participants, 1089 hits at the moment... Not worth five minutes of Dennis's time to respond or address anything. Maybe he's waiting for a letter to the editor in the September issue of Paragliding Magazine.

Wanna talk arrogance, cowardice?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Davis Straub - 2015/07/17 [5:23:12 UTC

I trust my readers to understand and critique any article that I publish.

What's that trust based on, Davis?

- We know that tons of the shits you encourage to participate in discussions are semiliterate total douchebags who believed for decades there was some kind of thought process behind the Davis Link.

- How the fuck do you have any idea who your readers are?
-- Tons of your registered users are anonymous.
-- The Davis Show has been in the past and is now again a publicly accessible forum.

I am of course aware of all the issues raised on all sides.

Of course you are. It's really hard to imagine you not being fully aware of anything - despite or possibly because of your history of serious concussions during the maggot stage of your metamorphosis.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43321
Smear Piece

Christopher LeFay - 2015/07/19 09:43:45 UTC

Just so long as that critique doesn't concern the ethics of publishing- then it get's locked down rather fast.

Ain't it great that we've got Davis to determine what we get to discuss, who gets to participate, the individuals who are and aren't subject to his fake civility rules, when threads need to be locked and/or deleted.

Regardless of content, publishing an anonymous attack is endorsing an anonymous attack by providing it a platform- obfuscation and equivocation not withstanding.

- Bullshit.
- You know how long it took me to identify who Christopher / Mavi Gogun actually was?

Publishing such an obviously controversial manifesto then locking the discussion page linked from the article needs to be justified if credibility is to be earned.

- Oh. You think Davis has got a snowball's chance it hell of earning a dust particle's worth of credibility.
- How much Pagen have you read?

Davis Straub - 2015/07/19 13:46:14 UTC

I locked the thread because it went off the rails with Bill C., Brian, and Graeme.

And now you've locked this one too. Good job. Now we can get on with discussing:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43230
Shoes for HG?

You're sure not doing anything to hurt the hit counts over here.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/07/29 03:44:36 UTC

The contemptible cowards "ridge lift guys" seem to think I'm somehow shading things in what I wrote earlier.

Fuck those contemptible cowards.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/03/30 23:29:59 UTC

Hi folks,

I understand the interest in learning the cause of this, but could we please not speculate on the forum? We have a very experienced tow administrator (Mitch Shipley) headed to Las Vegas to do an accident investigation, and when we learn what really happened we'll convey that information to our members. He'll be working with two of the local instructors there to get to the truth.

Meanwhile, please refrain from offering speculation or opinion on what might have happened, what might have been theoretically done to prevent it and so on. Emotions are raw, people are hurting, and uninformed speculation doesn't help anybody. News reports are of little use since they're written by people who have no idea how our sport works or what is typical.

Thanks for your understanding and patience.

They have absolutely no understanding of and respect for how our sport works or what is typical.

To be blunt, that's complete bull-pucky. I said I wasn't certain about who's the CIVL rep because I did not know for certain at the time.

And you have an absolutely astounding depth of not knowing things for certain at any time. Most convenient.

It's not listed on the BOD page. I thought it was Jamie, but I might be wrong. I'm not...it's Jamie. And that reminds me, that I need to ask Beth to put that position on the BOD listing page...I'll do that right now while I'm thinking about it.

If these faceless, spineless weasels want to have any influence at all, they need to come out in the open and make their criticisms known in public, under their real names.

Those faceless spineless weasels ARE having some influence at all, motherfucker. People are listening to their charges and u$hPa's not denying anything and checking them against Dennis's written record and their personal interactions with him.

And they can deal with the public reaction that will result from their statements.

Yeah, Mark. Lots of us know all about how that works.

Otherwise, they're just a bunch of slandering know-nothings, whose opinion is of no value at all.

Right Mark. All because they wish to be and stay anonymous. Me? I've got both enemies and allies whose identities are unknown to me and the general public. I deal with what they're saying rather than assigning value and credibility based on the anonymity. And the more you assholes harp on that one issue the more credible they become.

I don't know where they're getting their information about what *I* think, but it's a complete surprise to me...and I'm the one living inside my head, last I checked. You'd think I'd have been informed by at least *one* of my personalities!

Just keep writing stuff, Mark. Never hurts to have more data to firm up the portrait of you we already have.

Update - 2015/07/30 02:38:13 UTC

BOD list is now updated on the USHPA website with the CIVL rep and committee participants.

Davis Straub - 2015/07/30 13:45:20 UTC

From: Concerned Guys
Sent: 2015/07/30 06:41
To: Davis Straub
Subject: No Wonder It's OK to Be An Acknowledged Bureaucrat

Stephane Malbos is a well-known figure in free flight bureaucracy and has been involved in free flight for twenty years. However, he is most famous among pilots for revealing that he does not now fly but instead has a passion for golf. His revelation during a heated discussion over competition paragliders hosted on Paragliding Forum left even the most hardened PGforum voices almost speechless. (Almost.) "Last time I flew a glider was more than twenty years ago. I am - proud and ashamed to admit - a golfer." - See more at:
http://www.xcmag.com/2015/02/stephane-malbos-elected-new-civl-chairman/#sthash.g509HnVu.dpuf

This says it all- headed toward "free flight bureaucracy" with non-pilots deciding what pilots can and can't do. So it's no surprise his opinion is that it is of "no concern" not to be an active pilot.

Paragliding deserves better than this.

So does US hang gliding. That's EXACTLY the situation we have with THIS:

Timothy Herr - 48274

motherfucker. One asshole who's never flown anything with a better glide ratio than an elevator and is interested in the sports only to the extent of the money he can drain out of them in control of EVERYTHING: SOPs, ratings requirements, incident reporting, who gets protection and safety awards and who gets expelled.

FYI, Malbos broke a leg going down a flight of stairs earlier this year..how's his golf game?

And the Forbes response was a riot. What a thin skinned guy-

Maybe others (like Hass) will get Dennis to actually honor his own promise to step down this year.

Dennis has NOTHING in the way of honor.

Maybe those running for BOD will consider new leadership rather than one more round of rubber stamping.

Good freakin' luck.

Or maybe we will turn into a bureaucracy of non-pilots!

Turn into? Donnell Hewett really got that ball rolling thirty-four years ago.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43279
Concerning Dennis Pagen

Steve Seibel - 2015/07/30 15:42:18 UTC

Concerned Guys - 2015/07/16 13:59:22 UTC

He teaches seminars from flip charts with a Magic Marker- really?

So what?

Here's so what, Steve...

The motherfucker makes a living presenting himself as an all-knowing guru and expert on everything hang gliding but is NEVER anywhere in sight in any of the raging bloody controversies - most of them following really spectacular fatalities - glider people are having out in the REAL world.

If this were a LEGITIMATE flavor of aviation we'd have competent, intelligent, knowledgeable, experienced, respected individuals running the shows and writing the books; there wouldn't be any major controversies on fundamental issues; and when there were arguments and disagreements in the lower ranks these guys would step in and settle issues with logical explanations delivered in language everybody could understand. Think Von Braun and what got us to the fuckin' moon. ('Cept don't think about his former employer and factory working model.)

But what we actually have is that model turned totally upside down - Towing Aloft being the ultimate reference for pulling gliders into the air and Kite Strings a tiny guerrilla operation that people are bending over backwards to pretend doesn't exist. Pagen wouldn't survive thirty seconds if he were ever stupid enough to expose himself in an uncontrolled interactive environment. Talk about cowardice...

[Tad Eareckson]

P.S. Steve...

Go back to 1970 and drop a piano on Dennis. How is the sport the slightest bit worse off for his absence?

Quote me some people praising Dennis's flip charts, magazine articles, books with respect to specific benefits in their flying, equipment, understanding of theory.

Maybe a couple decades ago Dennis told me personally that our goal in this sport was to earn the respect of our peers. That's how you run for political office - not how you advance aviation. Dennis is where he is as a consequence of saying all the right things all the right people wanna hear. Fuck that and fuck him. He's a parasite on this sport - not a contributor to it.

The only way to make a POSITIVE difference is to say the shit NOBODY wants to hear and respect of our "peers" be damned. Got news for ya... That doesn't help you win any popularity contests but you will in the long run earn you respect from the few of the wrong people peers who AREN'T total wastes of space.

Go fuck yourself, Steve.

[MikeLake]

"Go back to 1970 and drop a piano on Dennis."

If you go back a bit further and drop a piano on Dennis you would have
a flat minor.

(Couldn't resist.)

[Tad Eareckson]

I first heard that one a zillion years ago on one of Prairie Home Companion's annual joke shows from a minor (twelve-year-old) in the audience.
"What do you get when you drop a piano down a mine shaft?"
Works with that homophone too.