instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33362
A good read on safety

Heli1 - 2015/09/05 17:22:29 UTC

Hi Hoosier_Eagle
Looks like there is a problem with the bee hive.
They are not buzzing.

Jan

Colony collapse disorder. Big surprise.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33362
A good read on safety

Hoosier_Eagle - 2015/09/06 15:33:31 UTC

parting words

You are so right Jan. Actually, I've been checking occasionally over this holiday weekend, and been waiting to see what others thought.

Yeah. Been waiting to see results of THINKING on The Jack Show. Don't hold your breath.

Here are my parting thoughts, since it seems this thread will eventually die away...

It'll definitely eventually die away a lot faster if you've already decided those are your parting thoughts.

Brian Scharp - 2015/09/04 16:40:47 UTC

Have you asked USHPA?

Yes. Yes I did. When I joined USHPA and started flying, like any new pilot, I tried to avail myself of all information, including accident/incident reports.

Did you try Kite Strings?

I was really surprised to find that the reports on the USHPA website just inexplicably ended at 2008.

Interesting. Same year I inexplicably ended.

So I emailed them and asked if they were going to be releasing some more recent ones. No reply. Not a nasty reply, or anything, just no reply at all.

Well duh. How do expect them to have time to post accident/incident reports and answer questions about why they're not being posted when they're so busy fulfilling their mission statement regarding fostering a culture of safety and mailing out little red rubber FOCUSED PILOT wristbands?

That was actually the correspondence to which I was referring when, on another thread, I talked about how the Tandem Instructor link was directing readers to the Pilot Proficiency page.

But anyway, back to topic: good safety reads. Brian, yes, I had read that reply by mgforbes; and you are right, it is relevant.

Ya think?

Two and a half years later, it is the status quo.

It's been SOP for decades.

So, why did I feel it necessary to pose my most recent question here, about accessibility of incident reports, now? For two reasons 1) USHPA brought the issue of accident reports back to the forefront of my mind with the recently issued safety notice letter.

Which was designed to give the appearance that u$hPa actually gave a flying fuck about the current bloodbath and was redoubling its efforts to foster a culture of safety.

Would we, I thought to myself, need this letter sent to us, if we could just regularly access the actual incident reports?

Name one person who either needed or benefited from having that letter sent to him? Ya think it would've made any of the recent fatals the slightest bit less fatal?

And 2) I remembered the lack of response to my USHPA email years ago and thought, maybe folks on this forum...

And forums other than that forum - "Hang Gliding Org - Worlds largest Hang Gliding community" - just aren't worth looking into.

...would have some insight or creative ideas to bat around and "brainstorm", so to speak.

Fuckin' douchebag colony.

Maybe we should discuss this: Why is this letter is an apparent substitute for individual incident reports?

Didn't read Mark's post all that carefully, did ya?

My thoughts on mgforbes quote are:
1) If USHPA just needs volunteers to clear the backlog of accident reports so they can be made publishable...

You mean pull the little strips of paper out of Tim Herr's shredder and paste them back together?

...why not ask for some volunteers in the most recent safety letter they sent all of us?

Possibly because the absolute last thing u$hPa wants is volunteers preparing solid incident reports and making them available to the public?

We are a community...

God fuckin' damn right you are. And that's the absolute LAST thing you wanna be to have serious problems fixed. Your "community" includes Sam Kellner. Note that I banned his ass outta Kite Strings (which had no business whatsoever being here in the first place) four days shy of a month BEFORE he made a good decision in the interest of Terry Mason's safety and sent the report to u$hPa's Chief Shredding Officer.

...I don't know about everyone else...

That's OK. I do.

...but I would be happy to help.

Help u$hPa? If you wanna help produce incident reports what's stopping you? Why do you need anything from u$hPa or the Jack cult?

Just tell me what is required.

Not much. Just a willingness to have your flying career ended and be permanently exiled from all flying communities. (Another way of saying integrity.)

I am an academic scientist.

Sorry, what we really need are combat scientists.

I teach stats, materials, and chemistry.

Any thoughts on the pre 2013/02/03 standard aerotow weak link?

I bet I could help, even if I was just relegated to helping to tabulate and organize the backlog of documents.

See above.

And, I bet others would be willing to do so as well.

Yeah, just look at all the responses your posts have generated.

2) He succinctly states an USHPA tenant or SOP: Passing timely formal (or even informal) incident reports and investigative findings to pilots is secondary to protecting USHPA culpable deniability for insurance purposes.

Doesn't have shit to do with insurance purposes. Has to do with getting sued out of existence for gross negligence by its victims and their survivors.

Not necessarily because USHPA is trying to be evasive, but because the officers, board, and lawyers feel it is essential to function in this manner.

Its officers, board, and lawyer are all total scumbags. And anyone involved in the sport who doesn't know that is living in a cave with his head shoved at least a foot and a half up his ass.

So, first, let me be clear, I am not criticizing mgforbes for writing a truth.

Right. The motherfucker tells you they're still wrestling with numerous legal issues associated with accident reports and constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention and that constitutes writing the "truth". And I guess you were totally OK with all of Mark's statements and conduct in the recent Bob Kuczewski expulsion action.

Actually, I appreciate his willingness to answer, and his candor.

Mark G. Forbes is a duplicitous lying backstabbing motherfucker and emblematic of everything totally rotten in this sport.

He said it like it is.

Suck my dick. Anybody who gives a ghost of a flying fuck about anything safety related in this sport has followed the response to the 2015/03/27 Jean Lake crash and seen Mark's role in it for exactly what it is.

We are letting USHPA put tort liability issues ahead of incident/investigation reporting to the pilot community.

- I'm not.
= Fuck the "pilot community". Anybody in the "pilot community" isn't a pilot - he's a cocksucker.

After all, it is our organization.

You're more than welcome to it. A good many years ago the stench became way more than I was able to tolerate.

And truly, let's be honest with ourselves, it is not like we all did not know that was what was occurring.

OK, enough honesty with ourselves. Now back to lying and covering asses.

My points are these:
Is that suppression of information actually what we want?

It's very obviously what your community wants.

Can we do better?

Anything you do differently will be better. It's totally inconceivable that you could do any worse after so many decades of refinement.

And if so, how? What tools or regulatory structure are necessary to truly protect, self-regulate, and foster safe free flying?

Mandatory helmet use for any individual within fifty yards of a glider.

Do the many structural, institutional issues need to be addressed before we can expect to see a change in how incidents and accident findings are reported to us, the pilot community, in the US?

It's total shit. Burn it and start over.

Does USHPA need legal protection to actually be able to do its regulatory "job."

It didn't before it got its corporate lawyer entrenched enough to tell us it did.

Do those who report problems to USHPA also need legal protection as well, from retaliation by USHPA, since USHPA would then have authority over them?

I dunno. Maybe you could get some feedback from T** at K*** S****** and Bob Kuczewski.

Let me explain. Of course, USHPA is in the States, I get that. And of course, it is not under the same regulations and tort environment as BHPA, or others.

Fuck all of them.

I do understand how the tort system here works.

You don't need to. Just let Mark G. Forbes and Tim Herr handle everything as they see fit.

What I am asking is: If it's REALLY necessary to be so closed lipped with the accident information, even years after the fact, then what can we do to change that?

Who gives a flying fuck?

- In the Doug Hildreth era we had pretty damn good incident reporting and analysis and recommendations and The Industry one hundred percent refused to implement one single reform. And the primary reason for that was EXACTLY what Mark has put in black and white in that and a few similar posts. Nobody in The Industry was ever gonna admit that he could've prevented the deaths of any of his products by using better procedures and/or equipment. The motivation is ALWAYS to further degrade the systems to get the really lethal shit to be accepted as "typical".

- There hasn't been a single goddam lesson to be learned from a single goddam incident since the beginning of modern hang gliding - which I'm defining as early Eighties when we had certified gliders, tow tension routed through the pilot, dolly and platform launched towing, and practical aerotowing.

Our two most recent fatalities a couple weeks ago... Do the fuckin' preflight stomp test and use assistance when you're trying to launch from a fuckin' cliff in high winds. What parts of those are we having so much trouble understanding or should we have been having so much trouble understanding in August of 1975?

We can have a Doug Hildreth or Mark G. Forbes / Tim Herr caliber incident reporting system and will have no differences in results whatsoever. In order for any kind of positive changes to occur we need to see motherfuckers Matt Taber getting half a dozen consecutive life sentences and their assets divided up amongst their victims' families.

And, do we care enough to try?

Here we are in 2015 hundreds of miles south of where we were in 1985. Do the fuckin' math.

I've not heard of the NTSB being sued because they made an accident report public.

No, but you have heard of airlines having their asses sued off as consequences of NTSB findings.

Why is that? Well, because they are not also the insurance agent or pass through. USHPA is essentially trying to be a regulatory authority AND provide or hold insurance coverage.

It's trying to PRESENT ITSELF as a regulatory authority.

That is admirable...

It's totally disgusting.

...and I understand why, but naive little me is thinking this causes a conflict of interest and just might be the root of the problem.

Conflict of interest is the name of the game. And keep those fatalities coming.

To my knowledge, the FAA and the NTSB do not insure airports and pilots. So maybe we should quit trying to fight a big ole tort war in the courts, just to keep our insurance, and ask ourselves if we have the correct structure in place to do what would truly benefit the free flight community the most (in the US).

Revocation of the Tandem Exemption.

I am not answering that question, I am posing it to you guys.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

There are lots smarter people here, on this forum than me. What do you all think?

The smart ones have either been banned already, are lurking low to avoid being banned, or are not posting 'cause...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

Amazing how when this topic comes up every time you see people argue the same arguments over and over again. It has been a classic (although niche) endless Internet flame topic.

I suspect that some of the parties that have posted in threads like these before are refraining now since they have learned that it is nearly (completely?) impossible to change people's minds on the topic.

...they know that nothing they say there will make any difference.

If your answer is "Heck, no!" I am against any altering of the structure of USHPA, or increasing red tape for free flight, or even the idea of just examining the efficacy of what we deem to be self regulation of free flight, then please ask yourself this: When, if ever, do we decide there is enough case law in our favor to publish our own investigations. Will that day ever appear? Is it forever gone? Does it need to reappear? And if it is here, and all we need are volunteers, then let's join together and make a priority to inform the membership, publish and set a reasonable timetable for release of information after investigations are done.

A few hours after impact is all that's ever been needed for any fatality report.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyhg/message/17223
Pilot's Hotline winter flying

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41

Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.

Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.

Any time beyond is being dedicated to spin, obfuscation, and cover-up.

Make it so. As they say, "Just do it." Invest in beefing up the self-reporting of minor incidents, allow them to be posted unaltered, and set a format to publish formal investigations in a reasonable time frame with truly detailed explanations and conclusions.

Give me an example of any crash report from any era and corner of the globe from which there's anything to be learned.

I can hear the collective sigh. Sorry. Yes, you are right, we can close our eyes and move on to the next thread. But life is not static and positive change really can happen.

It has. Eight of 'em this year so far.

It may be uncomfortable, it may require work to give it a proper direction, but change can be good. All I am saying is that institutionalized (even if unintentional or seemingly unavoidable) suppression of information, should be 1) recognized for what it is, and 2) the cause(s) recognized and addressed.

I don't profess to know the solution, or to even fully understand the problem, but I do know that for me as a pilot, "good safety reads" do include individual incidents reports, open and timely accident reporting, and not just a summary from those who saw the reports.

'Specially from official Privileged Information Decimator dickheads like Rodie.

And, IMHO, it seems that if the reporting agency is both the regulating body and the insurance agent, it might be time to consider what that is doing to stem the flow of safety information to us, as pilots.

In conclusion, I see two choices... We can look at this, start to talk about it (again), use this format...

Fuck that "Jack's Living Room" format.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

gasdive,

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

Talk about "conflict of interest". The Jack Show is just Jack's u$HGa's version of Tim and Mark's u$hPa. If you wanna PROMOTE hang gliding as it's been for the entire Modern Era then you're in the right place. If you wanna REFORM it then Kite Strings is the only game in town. But if you REALLY wanted to reform it you'd have already known that and would've been participating here and getting retaliated against everywhere else.

...to maybe brainstorm some solutions...

A major Jack Show brainstorm never amounts to as much as a light morning fog.

...and begin to outline some steps to bring to USHPA.

Maybe you could get some tips from Ted Kaczynski on how to ensure getting their attention.

Or, we can let this drop, act like it is not really a problem at all. If we do the latter, then the next time this is brought up, probably by a well meaning naive person like me, we can give them a copy of mgforbes comments (again), ignore the thread, and in a couple years, let that pilot ask him or herself, "Why has it been a...

...nuther...

...whole decade since USHPA released any individual incident or accident findings?"

I dunno... Maybe something along the lines of doing the same thing over and over again while continually expecting better results.

And then that buzz begins again, the one we knew was there all along, like cicadas in the Summer...

'Specially the Seventeen Year flavor.

...but had learned to ignore.

Gregg Ludwig - 2009/02/12 00:05:51 UTC

ushpa Tow Committee opportunities

Tad-

Would you be interested in a position on the ushpa Tow Committee? You can participate via e-mail if you can't make it to a BOD meeting. ..or just help me with a single project...

I need to rewrite the aerotow SOP...to include ATP and Sport pilot stuff....weaklinks...or just send me a proposal on weaklink sop ideas...

Gregg
Tow Committee Chair

That was a bit over nine days shy of four years before one of u$hPa's most beloved pro toads got splattered all over the Quest runway by the focal point of his safe towing system.

I spent weeks working on the revisions after having spent years debunking u$hPa's bullshit, Gregg barely gave me the time of day with respect to my efforts, and u$hPa treated me exactly the same way it treated you - with the naked contempt of not even acknowledging my existence.

Then I posted a draft letter to the FAA and that sent a 9.0 shock wave through the entire scummy organization and scared all those motherfuckers shitless.

But then the scummy corrupt pieces o' shit at the FAA did the same thing that u$hPa did to me and things continued oozing south.

But when the aforementioned pro toad got his stupid ass splattered I got to say, "Toldyaso, motherfuckers." and scores of the most prominent motherfuckers had their reputations demolished to the point at which it became impossible for them to post anywhere on any forums or publish articles in the magazine.

If you wanna make any difference that's the path you'll hafta follow and you WILL pay a heavy price. But two whistleblowers writing the FAA over the same issues are about twenty times more problematic than one. Four or five willing to state that two plus two equals four and sign their names could do an unimaginable amount of damage.

But you're not willing to sign your name even on The Jack Show and those were your parting words.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33362
A good read on safety

Brian Scharp - 2015/09/06 18:45:13 UTC

Hoosier_Eagle - 2015/09/06 15:33:31 UTC

Is that suppression of information actually what we want?

It's not what I want, but I doubt you'll find much more support here.

If you wanna find out just how much more support you'll find there keep talking along those lines.

Maybe a poll would show a little more because of the anonymity it provides.

Yeah, a Jack Show poll with showing a strong interest in getting solid and timely incident reporting should really get u$hPa's attention.

Eric Beckman - 2015/09/07 01:33:46 UTC

Thanks for your reasoned and well written post, H_E. I may be in the minority, but by no means alone, when I comment in support of your position.

FINALLY! A glimmer of hope for the future of this sport.

As a suggestion/question, what would it take to create a separate "Safety Foundation" (or other aptly named non-profit org.) to track and publish all known incident and fatality data for the flying population?

An unrepentant child molester who's been expelled from the sport, knows what he's talking about, hates the fuckin' guts of just about everyone in it, and has nothing to lose.

Heck, it could even receive "donations" from USHPA, the Free Flight Foundation, and others (like you and me) to help fund operations.

PayPal them to the email address I gave in my first post on Kite Strings.

Just a thought...

No shit. That's about all that we ever get outta any of these useless dumps.

...and I hope it resonates with others enough to get some inertia and maybe a proposal or something at an upcoming USHPA BoD mtg.

Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry men? It is the music of the people who will not be slaves again...

Cheers!

Yeah, thanks. If you need me for anything else I'll be over here holding my breath.

P.S. Everybody notice Mark G. Forbes conspicuously not participating on this now extinct ten post thread? Getting any vibes from that response?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44009
Why there isn't any growth in hang gliding

Fly Florida - 2015/09/09 21:26:07 UTC

I have never convinced myself to try PG but I can see the travel and set up time advantage PG pilots also get to fly in the upright position that is the predominate posture of humans. I eventually gave up supine hang gliding due to the lack of factory produced equipment and the lack of any safe launch carts for a true supine rigged glider towed behind a tow plane. Foot launching a topless HG behind a tow plane also gets more demanding each year past 65.

Bullshit. Launch carts just add complexity to the system and thus increase the potential failure modes and make takeoff much more dangerous - for both you and the tug pilot, 'specially now that everyone's using Tad-O-Links equal to the strength of the Dragonfly tow mast breakaway. Just foot launch - you'll be fine.

[Steve Davy]

Hey Jack Asshole forum idiots. Any of you know what this is?:


http://www.soaring.no/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/20071122_carbonbbar_1536_303.jpg

[<BS>]

Expensive?

[Steve Davy]

And dangerous! You don't want to have your hands anywhere near that thing when learning to fly or landing.

[Steve Davy]

PS Here is an aircraft control:


http://bobschiller.com/Images/controlStickLg.jpg

It's pretty much a no brainer that you do NOT want to have your hands on that when learning to fly or while landing an aircraft.

[Tad Eareckson]

That's the airframe component you keep both of your hands off of during foot launch and for at least five seconds after clearing the slope and then again starting no later than the beginning of final through the flare and bonk or crash.

For towing you take one of your hands off of it during a low level lockout while making the easy reach to your Industry Standard release. It is, however, acceptable to use both hands on it during a low level lockout to pitch out abruptly and actuate your instant hands free release and save your ass.

And, yeah, you never wanna get anywhere near it until after you've scored a Two and have a couple high flights under your belt.

It's referred to as the "control bar" because it's used to hold the downtubes together.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43820
Break Down Care

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/16 17:18:20 UTC

The "Why can't we get a handle on the Safety Thing" article by Mike needs to be read over and over again until you "get it".
It's probably the single most important literature you'll ever read, and can be applied to many things besides flying.

Name some people who've "gotten it". How many of them are:
- doing:
-- preflight stomp tests
-- hook-in checks
-- wheel landings a hundred yards short of the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ
- using:
-- wire assistance that they probably don't need
-- releases that aren't within easy reach
-- weak links that don't increase the safety of the towing operation
-- tug pilots that can't and won't fix whatever's going on back there
- giving enough in the way of flying fucks about their fellow pilots to take stands against any of the lethal crap that The Industry pumps out

That article was published seventeen years ago this month and that was the last - and damned near the first - peep we've heard from that motherfucker on safety or anything else in this game.

End o' March we had the most spectacular crash in the history of hang gliding that took out a Hang Five and an eleven year old kid on one of Mike's tandem thrill ride gliders. The glider cybersphere went white hot and we didn't get so much as a detectable pulse out of Mike or anybody else from Wills Wing.

Fuck Mike, fuck that article, fuck Wills Wing. If you wanna do safety in hang gliding ya gotta do nuts and bolts stuff, go to war with the establishment, kiss all your fake friends goodbye forever, be a nonstop presence, and pay a massive personal price.

P.S. All Mike's article says is that if you're OK with a one in a thousand chance of getting killed you're probably gonna die by the time or before you've logged a thousand flights. Duh. Russian roulette with four digits instead of one. And name some instructors, schools, Wills Wing dealers who are impressing this point on their new students and tandem thrill riders.