instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

flyingdawg - 2015/11/13 14:49:21 UTC
Sandia Park

Robert, it really jumped out at me that you were the pilot who started this thread because I have been thinking about you a lot ever since you posted a video of a flight you made and that led to an extensive discussion of your launch technique.

Several long time HG pilots, including me, felt compelled to express our grave concerns about your launch technique which we considered to be extremely dangerous. I felt that the discussion ending with you not accepting our constructive criticism and I concluded that you were not likely to work on or change your launch technique.

So did any of you longtime HG pilots, including you, feel compelled to express your grave concerns about the kind of pro toad, Industry Standard easily reachable bent pin release, Rooney Link protected launch technique that everybody and his flying dawg was using and would kill the crap outta Zack Marzec at Quest on 2013/02/02?

That conclusion has caused me to not be able to get you off of my mind because I know, not think, I know, that your launch technique is eventually going to cause you to blow a launch.

- And obviously you also know, not think, you know that his launch technique will never vary from what you saw on that one video.

- So what's that say about his training program and the instructor who signed him off for high flight?

- And I guess none of you motherfuckers has the slightest problem with the fact that he does absolutely no pretense of a hook-in check until he's a step and a half away from becoming airborne.

The result of that could vary from you being embarassed and walking away or on the other end of the spectrum, your death.

But don't worry 'bout dying as a consequence of an unhooked launch. It's a no brainer that you did a hang check just prior to moving into launch position - just as you were trained to do at Lockout.

Despite the efforts of many pilots to help you avoid that outcome, we failed and I have not been able to let that go in my mind.

Well, he's still alive and there's a whole shitload of guys who ain't as this calender year draws to a close so he must be doing SOMETHING right.

I am not writing this to attack you personally but I think that this fits right into this discussion that you started about how we can stop pilots from dying in hang gliders.

Probably something to that.

So Robert, this is just something for you to think about and others to ponder as to how this fits into this discussion and can help us all to be safer pilots. I wish that I was still living back in Virginia...

Jim Palmieri?

...and you and I could sit down on a launch one day, meet, and really talk this throught but since I live in New Mexico, these postings are the best that I can do to try to promote safer flying for you and everyone else.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/11/13 18:24:30 UTC

Your conclusion was only partially correct. I'm not going to change my technique based solely on the opinions of people I don't know, who base their opinions on 30 seconds of wide angle video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfxRL4zhMmg


Fuck that, Robert. You shouldn't be basing your actions on the OPINIONS of ANYBODY - regardless of whether or not you know them or what their credentials are. You should be listening to what people say and evaluating as to whether or not it makes sense. If you're incapable of doing that then it might be a good idea to find another hobby.

I will, and have, listened to such advise, and once I have verified for myself that their observations and reasoning are correct, changed things.

So to what has the delay been in this case? It's a fuckin' hang glider foot launch - Hang 0.1 stuff. It ain't rocket science.

It's my butt on the line, so I will change things when I know exactly what to do differently and better.

In other words you're just going with what you were or think you were taught and currently rolling dice as to what is or isn't right.

You probably got the wrong impression because during the course of that thread I had not gotten back out to a hill to verify for myself that my technique was sub-optimal.

I haven't been clipped into a glider for over six years and haven't foot launched for over eleven but I'm still capable of watching a video and understanding what's going on.

Edit:
Please, let's not get into a discussion of my personal launch technique, that would be off topic.
If you're suggesting that the recent surge in fatalities is a result of a breakdown in the flow advice from more experienced, to less experienced pilots, that would be on topic. Discussing ways to give advise more effectively and also ways to evaluate advise you receive would also be OK.

...advise...advice...advise...advise...

They're all supposed to be spelled like the second one, Robert.

NMERider - 2015/11/13 19:42:20 UTC

Comet - 2015/11/13 08:08:41 UTC

According to Mark Forbes, ten verified hang gliding fatalities for 2015.
I've seen much worse years.
The forum rumor mill blows things way out of proportion.

The forum does often blow some things out of proportion but this year really is way out of the norm. Read Doug Hildreth's 20-year USHGA fatality article from 10/1989:
http://www.ushpa.aero/safety/HGHildrethSafetyArticle.pdf

Doug would be turning over in his grave now if he could see the way all his work and all the honest efforts of people from that ere are being shredded by the total scumbags running this sport today.

2015 is by far the worst year in the history of the sport on a per capita or per 100,000 equivalent pilot basis. First of all 1974 was the worst year in absolute numbers at 40 but there were no certified or even certifiable gliders.

And now they've figured out ways to totally decertify them:
- fly them from the control tubes whenever low over terrain
- hook them up to Dragonflies with pro toad bridles and easily reachable releases

There were few certified instructors or standard training curriculum.

And now we've got:
- Drs. Trisa Tilletti sharing their wisdom on magic fishing line for all to see for free in fourteen page magazine articles
- the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden - cover to cover Industry Standard rot
- Tom Galvin teaching that hook-in checks give false senses of security
- Wallaby sending people up on weak links which will break before they can get into too much trouble
- Lockout Mountain Flight Park:
-- sending new Twos off its 1270 foot ramp in forced upright "training" (read humiliation) harnesses
-- selling the best aerotow releases on the planet that aren't warranted as suitable for towing anything

No reserve parachutes.

Now we've got them but we can't pry them out of our racing harness containers when we need them. But we solved that problem by building Screamers into the suspension.

It was more like the Wild West than anything else back then.

I disliked it less then. Now it's like the Soviet Union under Stalin.

Also, the average pilot age was probably 22 years younger than this year.

I sure know my average age was a lot younger back then. I can't even remember what that was like.

There is simply little if any basis for meaningful comparison until roughly 1980 and beyond.

1981 was when the lower tow connection was moved from the basetube to the pilot, the release was moved from where you could use it to within easy reach, and the Infallible Weak Link took the pilot totally out of the equation.

Age, complacency and lack of currency are all factors that stand out but we can only change 2 out of 3 of these factors.

We don't need to change age. Even hang glider people can figure out when it's no longer safe for them to fly. And long before it becomes unsafe to fly it becomes unfun to fly so it's a totally bogus issue.

This begs the question: What are we doing as individuals or as a group...

We're not gonna do shit as a group that's gonna change anything for the better. Hang gliding groups are inherently evil. Individuals acting as individuals are our only hope.

...to better manage our risk and to keep out basic skills sharp?

Pretending there is no risk so we can better support the tandem thrill ride industry and sharpening our basic skills by spending five or six weekends a month at the training hill perfecting our flare timing.

Since you are here as an anonymous troll it's difficult to ask you for any examples. I have no idea if you have even flown in the past 20 years or ever for that matter. There are plenty of identifiable trolls on the forum as well...

Gawd it was tough identifying the "peanut" cowardly total asshole as Dennis Wood.

...who not only fly regularly but I know personally. But they are trolls and contribute little more than negativity and cynicism wherever they go.

So what you're saying is that Jack is totally cool with having these trolls running around in his Living Room carte blanche.

I fail to see how the plethora of negativity and cynicism that permeates the sport of hang gliding fosters a higher degree of risk management and skill currency.

It's commercialism that's the main enemy here.

It's my observation that the trolls of hang gliding enjoy other pilots' accidents.

Is it OK for one troll to enjoy watching another troll slam in? How 'bout a total non troll watching an epic total piece o' shit like Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney or Davis Dead-On Straub buy the farm?

They pat themselves on their backs and say, "See. I told you so...", "If you had listened to me...".

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/09 23:49:42 UTC

I get pretty torqued up at the "strong weak link" advocates who come out of the woodwork when something like this happens and use it to say "see, this proves my/our point". This, in spite of not being there and only having second hand information to make this point. If you believe that fine, knock yourself out, but don't use BS like "this wouldn't have happened if only you had listened to me".

I have the greatest respect of Paul and Mark and their willingness to share what they know. I have zero respect for those who are using a tragedy to advocate a particular position, particularly when there is no proven link between their point and this accident.

Toldyaso. I don't give a flying fuck that you didn't listen to me or anything having to do with reality. I'm happy you didn't. Totally and undeniably proved my case. Super results for the sport and gene pool.

They actually have a vested interest in seeing other pilots crash and get hurt.

I'll happily take killed if I can get it. Hurt is so easy to cover up or spin.

This too needs to end in order for the negative trends in our sport to reverse.

Why? Is THIS:

14-03123
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/14422781117_a4a3b72ee6_o.png
20-03829

how you wanna be spending your time at national XC comps?

The negative trend in our sport WILL NOT reverse. It achieved to much momentum rolling south for that to be possible at least a decade ago. Let it finish imploding and serve as a history lesson for generations to come. Not that there are likely to be that many more generations with what we're doing to the planet.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

SadPilot - 2015/11/14 05:27:29 UTC
Mid-Atlantic

I used to think that a single annual trip to the training hill was "enough". One major reason for that is the simple fact that hauling a U2, or a T2C, up the friggin' hill can be extremely demanding.

This spring I happened to forget my basetube on the annual trip.

Don't EVER separate your basetube from your glider. Hundreds of thousands of highway miles have been wasted because of that bullshit.

But luckily my instructor John...

Middleton. Almost midaired him at Ridgely on 2004/09/12.

...(*still* teaching, unbelievable!) had a spare glider that I could rent for the day.

Super guy. Odd that he never seems to join in any of these discussions and give us the benefit of the wisdom he's acquired from his decades of flying and teaching experience.

I guess I'm stupid : I'd never thought of doing that before.

Are you stupid enough to get to launch position falsely believing you're connected to your glider? (Nah. Not THAT stupid.)

It was a *JOY* to knock off six or seven flights in that Falcon, in comparison.

Get your flare timing perfected? Nail that old Frisbee in the middle of the landing area consistently?

And you know what? It is NOT about the glider. It's about the conditions. It's about the run. It's about the aggressiveness. It's about the compressed launch/landing timeframe. It's about handling shallow slopes.

04-03012
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/14055233868_8457da1aa1_o.png

So.... Given the latest terrible accident, my resolution is to have three such trips to the hill per year.

Yeah, that was her problem. The slope was really shallow and her run was really weak.

And maybe the same thing for towing : Get to the flight park at the crack-o-dawn and knock off a bunch of tows. In non-thermal conditions, they should be reproducibly near -perfect.

Right. Near -perfect.

If not, you have a problem.

And make sure to do a few low level lockout drills...

01-001

04-200

07-300

10-307

15-413


Practice making that easy reach to your Industry Standard bent pin release so's you know right where it is and can blow tow as quickly and efficiently as humanly possible. And always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less for those inevitable events of human and mechanical failure.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Walt Conklin - 2015/11/14 14:39:34 UTC

"Why are we killing ourselves so much more?" Stupidity !

Yeah? So what's being done about it? Why are stupid people able to get through the ratings requirements - particularly the written tests?

Raymond Caux - 2015/11/14 15:34:35 UTC

Hi Jonathan,

Not knowing the habits here I didn't dare to name you. Thanks for the CIVL link. Actually there are 2 series of articles in the CIVL pages, Safety Articles and More Articles, the ones subjectively most significant displayed in red. It's even longer to read all that than this thread, but as Fred says, we need to change our way of thinking. I believe Jonathan's and Fred's way is advisable: "what do I do to avoid being the next one?"

Thanks also Robert for this highly interesting thread, it shows we are willing to progress.

No doubt. Obviously. Everybody knows that. How very odd that we seem to do nothing but accelerate backwards. Any thoughts on why that is?

Statistically, a surge in the figures somewhere doesn't mean much, and I don't know about other countries, but the same happened at least in France, one more coincidence or some deep trend? There is maybe a hidden factor: our lack of general air culture. I believe it's a pity we were separated from gliding...

Sailplaning.

...at the beginning. They had learned the hard way...

No they didn't. Wilbur and Orville were doing gliders before they did powered flight. Conventional gliders evolved from that with solid foundations in theory. Hang gliding has ALWAYS been OPINION based pretense of aviation in a near constant state of devolution.

...we didn't benefit of their knowledge and we still don't look much at neighbors like them or skydiving.

Goddam right. That's 'cause we've got total dickheads controlling the sport.

Not only JackieB/Steve Pearson are right comparing hang gliding with gliding, but hang gliding might be the very most challenging air sport: among the worst L/Ds giving fewer landing options...

That's not a significant issue. It is NEVER a big fuckin' deal to keep a safe landing option in easy range unless the pilot CHOOSES not to.

...but among the hightest L/Ds for approach and landing...

And of course we've gotta use that hightest L/D from a mile out 'cause JackieB won't allow us to turn below two hundred feet.

...slower than all aircraft with wheels...

And if we have wheels or skids on hang gliders and the intent to use them our aircraft are no longer hang gliders. I don't even know why we call them hang gliders. Why don't we change the name to foot landers?

...but faster than the unfairly easy to land paragliders...

You mean those assholes who approach and land with their hands on the controls at all times and don't feel compelled to whipstall their aircraft to dead stops at the ends of all flights?

Watching lock out or blown launch videos, the pilot is often fully outside of the A-frame, but too late or too few: lack of roll authority.

- And how much better roll authority does a locked out glider have when he's making the easy reach to his release with one hand?
- Lockout? Just use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. It'll break before you can get into too much trouble.
- Guess it's not worth talking about available release technology - motherfucker.

Unable to fly upside down.

I never needed to. And how many times does the average Cessna driver find himself upside down in the course of a flying career?

We need to be aware we fly essentially with traps and behave accordingly.

Yep. That's about all we can do. And just wait for the fatalities to rack up. Probably a good idea to avoid flying upside down whenever possible though.

Other domains also went through hard times, like medicin or civil aviation, they brainstormed a lot and now there are tools like Human Factors Engineering or Safety Management System (FAA), a kind of frame including all that has been said here plus more, about neurology, psychology and so on. We are all weather experts, we should become safety experts as well.

Fly safe, Raymond

Get fucked, Raymond. Some of us have been working our asses off against the institutional corruption and stupidity that's driving the bloodbath and you and your useless organization haven't done shit - at best.

2015/11/15 08:19:11 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Heli1

Timothy Ward - 2015/11/14 16:28:06 UTC

I dunno. It seems unlikely that people are twice or three times as stupid this year.
Like Jonathan, I suspect complacency is a factor, but It seems equally unlikely that people are twice or three times as complacent this year, so I dunno will probably remain my official opinion.

1974 was a bad year not just due to a lack of instruction or information, but also because there was outright bad information being circulated.

Glad we've got those issues under control.

With more formal instruction and the internet available today, that shouldn't be the case today.

Fuck no. You can find just about any opinion you want to in certified instruction and on the internet today.

F'rinstance, no one is going to tell you to make a turn by shifting your weight to the side and holding it there until the turn is completed.

- Nah, everyone will be way too busy telling you to go upright and put your hands high on the control tubes for better roll authority and to minimize head impact severity.

- And of course all the people who were told to make a turn by shifting their weight to the side and holding it there until the turn was completed did exactly that. None of them were able to respond and adjust their control inputs in response to what the glider was doing and telling them.

If you see the common thread of people dying doing 360's, then there's at least two approaches to keeping people from killing themselves. You can say "Don't do 360's -- they'll kill you", which was one approach that was taken; or you can teach people how gliders really turn so they don't spiral dive into the ground.

http://OzReport.com/14.129
Packsaddle accident report

Shane Nestle - 2010/06/30 13:01:28 UTC

Being that John was still very new to flying in the prone position, I believe that he was likely not shifting his weight, but simply turning his body in the direction he wanted to turn.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

But I don't see that common thread, which may be the scariest thing of all.

I see a common thread. Not one of the incidents in this recent surge scares me 'cause I understand enough about all of them to know that they wouldn't have been issues for me - 'specially the ones in which there've been brutal lockdowns on relevant information reporting.

Mike Bomstad - 2015/11/14 17:46:50 UTC

Complacency

Thank you so very much for that, Mike End-Of-Story Bomstad. Yeah, every incident in the history of hang gliding from a bonked landing to a Kelly Harrison / Arys Moorhead can be attributed to COMPLACENCY - 'cept, of course, for Jesse Fulkersin who was doing everything perfectly five weeks ago this afternoon. And doing so is pretty much the same thing and every bit as useful as saying that the cause of all crashes is people doing things wrong. So let's solve this problem by getting more FOCUSED PILOT wristbands into circulation and telling all our flying buddies to stop doing wrong stuff.

2015/11/14 21:50:59 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

Rat own, Paul.

NMERider - 2015/11/14 18:06:30 UTC

Mike Bomstad - 2015/11/14 17:46:50 UTC

Complacency

a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complacency

Sound familiar? Anyone? Buehler?

Who?

NMERider - 2015/11/14 18:10:48 UTC

Walt Conklin - 2015/11/14 14:39:34 UTC

"Why are we killing ourselves so much more?" Stupidity !

We're not stupid, Walt. Far from in fact.

Then how do you explain a couple decades of the one-size-fits-all 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link, Jonathan? After questioning it briefly I bought into it on Ridgely's first weekend of operation at the end of May of 1999 hook, line, and sinker. It was the most astronomically stupid thing I've ever done in this sport and after my brain started functioning again over half a dozen years later I went to war against it and the sleazy motherfuckers perpetrating it and got nothing but pissed all over and an end put to my career.

So explain to me how this sport isn't stupider than dog shit. And don't forget to include accounting for the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden and Dr. Trisa Tilletti's fourteen page Higher Education article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine in your defense.

What we are is complacent, often to the point of becoming arrogant.

I thought being an arrogant dickhead was a prerequisite for participation in hang gliding. Isn't Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney the mark to which we all aspire?

I have witnessed plenty of arrogance over the past seven years. And it doesn't just affect the arrogant pilots...

There's no such thing as...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png


...an arrogant PILOT.

...but affects other pilots negatively. This is a highly peer-driven sport.

Get that flare timing nailed. Wheel landings are for girls!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Steve Baran - 2015/11/14 19:21:48 UTC
Chattaroy

Aside from being stupid or complacent or ___ there's also ADDICTION. Addicts will do all sorts of stuff for another fix. I'll also toss our FEAR. When faced with fear humans can act out-of-character and irrationally.

Then you're right. We should DEFINITELY toss our fear.

How are our flying skills/judgement/capabilities compromised by these two?

I dunno. I just tossed my fear. It's just the addiction thing now. And apparently there's no way to toss that.

How addicted and/or fearful are we? Each one of us is unique.

Which is really remarkable when we consider that we're dealing with a cesspool's worth of off the scale stupid, hook-in check skipping Jack Show clones...

In more stressful, skill demanding situations a pilot may be overloading their capabilities yet when under less demanding situations they do just fine with the same tasks.

...typically clueless with respect to grade school level grammar and logic.

The worst hang gliding accident I ever witnessed...

Oh. You've witnessed a hang gliding ACCIDENT? Pray continue.

...was an assisted windy cliff launch. Everything appeared to go OK - nose wire and side wire people in place, a person was assisting the pilot, short walk to ramp was well controlled. Launch went well - but the pilot was not hooked in. Everyone overlooked that critical part.

That wasn't the critical part, DICKHEAD. The critical part was what everyone DELIBERATELY ELECTED to *OMIT* JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

Attention was being paid to other launch concerns.

Yep. Complacency. That'll getchya every time.

I'd surmise that fear played a part in that.

Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.

If not fear then at least the increased stress of the launch conditions and requirements were a near fatal distraction.

Well the solution seems pretty simple to me then. Just maintain the launch environment to eliminate distractions.

So where's the fuckin' report on this one, Steve?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=13359
Today was a bad day!

Mike Bomstad - 2009/08/26 04:21:15 UTC

The harness is part of the aircraft... end of story.
(Just because it's easy to remove, does not mean it should be. Dont choose the path of least resistance)

Attach it to the wing, completing the aircraft.... then preflight the completed aircraft.
Buckle yourself into the cockpit and then your ready.

Go ahead - MOHERFUCKER...

11-A12819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8339/28924980016_2ba1d20ef7_o.png


http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8253/28924975726_0d24a615c2_o.png
13-A14319

Say something. ("Well, how about a weak link?")

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/14 19:26:06 UTC

Hi Raymond,

The FAI web site has a counterintuitive interface and I find it difficult to use.

Probably the idea.

I went back and clicked on everything and found the links you are referring to.

Safety Articles:
http://www.fai.org/civl-our-sport/safety/457-civl/civl-safety/40259-safety-articles
More [Safety] Articles:
http://www.fai.org/civl-our-sport/safety/457-civl/civl-safety/37858-safety-more-articles

It's great to have an extensive library but in the real world of hang gliding the only thing pilots are going to learn and use are methods that are easy to remember and use either in the field or on the ground.

How 'bout this?:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

Core requirement for every flight for every rating in the u$hPa Pilot Proficiency System. Is that too hard to remember and use either in the field or on the ground?

I will tell you just how bad this reality is.

Better do better than I just did.

Almost no one ever does a side wire stomp test.

That's a really stupid one. You could grind your sidewire into a sharp rock.

It's in every current Wills Wing glider manual that I have looked at yet I only see one in a thousand pilots ever use it.

You must get out a lot more than I do.

It only takes a few seconds to perform the test. Had Rafael Lavin performed a simple side wire stomp test before launching, his [badly fatigued] 2mm...

I think it was 3/32.

...side wire would have snapped and he'd be alive.

No fuckin' doubt whatsoever. Blew right after launch at about 1.01 Gs. It WOULD have blown on the ground.

That 10% of the 2015 fatalities right there.

And what response do we get?

http://www.flyfunston.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1733
Wires

Doug Doerfler - 2015/09/21 23:37 UTC

Did you notice the moron in the video rubs his wire on a big rock when he steps on it, then the second time actually comments to make sure the rock isn't sharp

abrasion on a flat rock can still be pretty bad for wires

We go NOWHERE when we don't come down like tons o' bricks EN MASSE on motherfuckers like that.

It's equally rare that I see anyone test the flip levers on their battens during pre-flight to inure they don't pop open in flight and cause and uncontrollable spiral dive like that poor pilot in Bavaria on his Icaro MastR.

And maybe that ain't the best batten hardware engineering of which this planet is capable. I wouldn't continue that if it were my baby.

It also happened to an Org member near Funston doing wingovers and he threw his reserve safely. That could have easily been fatal.

Another life-saving and ultra-simple preflight is the Lift and Tug check immediately before launching.

Fuck that. Tom Galvin says it gives a false sense of security. No way in hell am I ever gonna do anything that makes me launch with a false sense of security. That would be just plain stupid.

Also...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?

Quinn Cornwell - 2009/01/24 19:57:03 UTC
HPAC Accident Review and Safety Committee Chairman

No, don't think about the jagged boulders. That'll mess with your head. Don't ever tell pilots to think about "Oh, if you screw this up, you'll crash and burn into those jagged rocks down there, so make sure you don't screw this up." This sort of psychology is detrimental. It's good to be conscience of the dangers in hang gliding, pointing this out right before you start running is just plain stupid.

1-02008


2-14001

http://www.hpac.ca/pub/img/memorial_Lenami_Godinez-Avila.jpg


You don't wanna be launching with a false sense of INsecurity. You don't wanna consider the consequences of what would happen if you're wrong about being hooked in. That's just plain stupid too. So just do a hang check and launch with the precisely correct sense of security. For everybody who's still flying that's always worked well enough before.

This test which takes only a few seconds...

You can do three of them in any given second.

not only insures that your harness is connected to the glider but that your legs are in your leg loops. There hasn't been a fatal FTHI in the US since Kunio's at Mingus many years ago...

2008/08/30.

http://ahga.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2860
Mingus Accident Report

Randy SkyWalker - 2008/09/02 23:12
Phoenix

He was not alone on launch nor where he fell, and although many believe it was the hurry and rush situation, I know for a fact it was not that "simple". Kunio was anxious to fly and with my help we assembled his glider to ready it for launch. After thorough pre-flight on his wing and choosing to go to the north launch he took meticulous attention and time to pick his cycle and his location on the launch.

Got exactly what he deserved for his complacency.

Fuck the US.

2009/08/27 - 58 year old Atos with no leg loops - Tannheim, Austria.

2011/04/09 - Yossi Tsarfaty - Israel.

2012/04/28 - Lenami Godinez-Avila - tandem thrill rider - British Columbia, sixteen and three quarters miles over the border. Biggest mainstream media event in the entire history of the sport.

What's it matter WHERE these are happening - unless there are significant relevant cultural differences, which there aren't?

...but there have been non-fatal FTHIs and many more failures to have legs inserted into leg loops resulting in some crashes and sore armpits but no fatalities. Any of these could have easily been fatal but weren't due in large part to luck.

I count ALL launches sans hook-in checks as fatals.

So there are three very simple field tests that will save lives going forward that can all be done in under a minute...

Or second - literally.

...in total but it's rare that I ever see anyone perform all or even just one of these tests.

And how can that possibly happen other than by deliberate design from...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand

Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24 21:19:29 UTC

Ok, this thread's a million miles long already (and mostly my fault at that), so I'm not going to feel bad about making it a tad longer.

A couple things to chew on here...

There isn't one sure-fire answer.
If there was, we'd all be doing it already. This thread I think makes this obvious... every single thing people have put forth as "the way", someone else has show how it can fail. Every single one. Argue about the details, but every single one fails.
...
That's all I got for ya.
The other topics have been beat to death here.
If there was an answer, we'd all already be doing it.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26996
Critique my radial ramp launch

Ryan Voight (AIRTHUG) - 2012/08/28 06:14:06 UTC

What USHPA reg are you referencing specifically?

And no, in a thread titled "Critique my radial ramp launch" that video is also pretty much entirely off topic.

You want to discuss/debate/dictate people's pre-launch habits, great, just don't hijack someone else's thread about radial ramp technique.

Since this video starts with him on launch, we don't know if he did a hook-in check already, a hang check, a preflight, took a pee before putting his harness on, or drove a hybrid car to launch... Why are you critiquing what you don't know, didn't see, didn't ask about, and isn't what he asked for critique on??? WTF?

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/10/31 22:17:21 UTC

I don't teach lift and tug, as it gives a false sense of security.

...the Industry and the pieces o' shit who control it?

So what makes anyone think pilots will spend twenty hours studying over a hundred pages of safety-related material and then distill it all down into a methodology they will actually use when they don't even do any of the three simple tests I described above?

What evidence do you have that Raymond's capable of thinking about anything?

Pilots don't even perform the simplest and most basic of preflight tests because they are complacent.

These "pilots" don't perform them 'cause they're trained not to.

So I believe that the first order of business is to get pilots actively involved in managing their own risk and start being the Pilot In Command...

Why? Don't we have...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney to do that for us?

...rather than what they currently are, which is the Passenger In Command.

In towing it's called Dope On Rope - with magic fishing line safety device.

I can only think of one method for situations like this: Peer Support.

Won't do it for me. I can just about count the peers I have in hang gliding on the fingers of one hand.

Hang gliding, at least in my eyes, is a highly peer-driven sport.

Driven into the fuckin' ground - which is totally what's happening right now, frequently literally.

There is Peer Support and there is Peer Pressure. They both work but either one can devolve into bullying and ostracism in short order which undermines the sport.

We need to start bullying and ostracizing the right motherfuckers to the maximum extent possible.

So Peer Support may help stem the tide of preflight failures but I don't know how it will stop In-flight Failures, beginning with the decision to launch.

Speaking of pre-flight failures, three of ten US HG fatalities this year have been due to preflight failures. One was the failed side wire and two were a tandem flight using a jury-rigged tow release that post-accident testing revealed to be extremely difficult to operate.

That was total fringe activity. We don't really need to be talking about it - 'cept to say that it's too bad that an eleven year old kid had to die in the course of this major Darwin event.

So a proper preflight should have revealed this...

There's no way to properly preflight a two-string release - even for a solo. It's a lot like preflighting a frayed sidewire to make sure it's still good. The release issue on this one doesn't even scratch the surface. You should be able to tie the glider directly to the towline with no release at all on a platform tow in any kind of halfway reasonable air and walk away smelling like a rose.

...and the flight been suspended. So that's 30% right there.

The previous US twofer was Arlan Birkett / Jeremiah Thompson - a LEGITIMATE hang gliding student ALSO getting massively ILLEGITIMATE tandem training.

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic76.html

Glad we got all THOSE issues properly addressed.

Now for the in flight failures. In one case I knew the pilot and his history plus I examined the video.

That the rest of us muppets didn't get to see - like the one from Jean Lake. So how's THAT helping to get this sport fixed?

The pilot had a history flying into very strong lift at minimum sink speed and on at least two prior occasions had gotten flipped on two different axes and hit the keel yet never changed his approach to entering strong lift. He had a history of getting away with entering lift in an unsafe manner and may have even been encouraged to do so by at least one of his peers. It didn't kill him however. What killed him was his failure to immediately deploy his reserve when he had the opportunity to do so.

So why aren't you saying anything about Kelly Harrison slamming in with his person of a varying age next to him and his parachute still neatly packed in its container? Kelly had all fuckin' afternoon to hit the silk - like this fuckin' Two did...

164-20729
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16488797369_9b8f9f9d89_o.png


...also with a jammed multi-string release in a VERY similar situation - when he had all fuckin' afternoon to do it? Why is flying too slow entering a nasty thermal and getting tumbled NOT what killed Markus but the jammed release IS what killed Kelly and the person of the varying age?

Driver he met in the parking lot, truck rigged so driver couldn't maintain visual contact with the glider, radio rigged so he could only use it when he didn't need it, parachute not even thought of. Fix any one of those and he can still jam the release and walk away with an unscathed person of a varying age.

There's damn near ALWAYS at least three issues that need to line up to produce a serious crash.

But had he used a safer and less climb-efficient approach to entering strong lift he wouldn't have been hanging beneath an inverted and broken glider in the first place.

Who says he was using a more climb efficient approach? If on at least two prior occasions he'd gotten flipped on two different axes and hit the keel he got kicked out of the thermal on hundreds. Kinda like in "theory" you're gonna climb better with the next size up glider but in practice you can't control it and you're gonna get spit out while everybody else is walking away from you.

So here's an extremely simple fourth method to avoid disaster that only costs a pilot a few seconds of lost climbing: Pull in the bar before entering strong lift! Gosh.

Ultimately it DOESN'T cost you a few seconds of lost climbing. It SAVES you MINUTES of climbing - at a MINIMUM. Safety, Control, Performance, Efficiency... All pretty much synonymous.

That's just as quick easy as the Stomp Test; the Lift and Tug; and the Batten Lever Check, yet this highly experienced H-4 pilot wasn't doing it and he died as a result.

So how did that affect his thermalling efficiency?

So now we're up to 40% of the 2015 fatalities.

Well yeah, but you're not really helping us identify the single issue that's underlying this year's spike.

And all of it could have been avoided by using extremely quick and simple methods but few pilots are doing all of these consistently.

And most of them are pissing all over the messages and circling the firing squads to take care of the messengers.

I have information on some of the other fatal accidents and from what I have been informed, these pilots failed to take their own personal limitations into account when performing their In-Flight Risk Assessments.

I prefer THREAT assessment. Where's your most serious threat coming from. Is it that:

- you might not have remembered to buckle your helmet after putting it on? Or is it that you might not have hooked back in after retrieving it from the setup area?

- if you don't try to nail your flare timing and spot in the LZ on this landing you might kill yourself landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place seven years from now? Or is it that you might break your arm if you DO try to nail your flare timing and spot in the LZ on this landing seven seconds from now?

As I'm sure you know, Raymond, all pilots continuously perform Risk Assessments before and during their flights.

Almost always assessing the wrong stuff.

Of course I am kidding. Pilots do perform Risk Assessments but not as much as they could be doing and accidents...

Crashes.

...frequently result.

So what I would like to see in addition to simple and effective preflight methods and a culture of Peer Support is a simple and easy to use technique for In-Flight Risk Assessment/Decision-Making that enables pilots to have as much fun and recreation as they can while maintaining an acceptable level of risk.

We gotta be real careful and selective about whom we tolerate in the peer group. I've got a rather microscopic number of participants on this forum and they're about all I want.

And you won't get shit in the way of what you want unless u$hPa and its factory schools running the shows alter their procedures. And u$hPa and its factory schools running the shows WILL NOT alter their procedures.

2015/11/15 08:25:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Heli1

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Dave Hopkins - 2015/11/14 21:58:27 UTC

People go to many events hoping to see mayhem.

It's not really the mayhem for which I go to many events hoping to see. I'd just like a chance to watch you use your glider as a crush zone so I'll know how to do it properly when I need to use my glider as a crush zone.

When you watch stupid over and over again you get an O-well attitude about bad landings and bad launches.

So is THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33501
How we judge our flying risk

Dave Hopkins - 2015/10/15 14:25:26 UTC

I agree with going upright at a decent alti. Head down with hands on the base tube has killed several pilots. Eliminate that from your flying and fight Accelerated risk factor.

the advice you'd have given Jesse Fulkersin for his landing five weeks and a bit over five hours ago?

They are so prevalent in this sport.

So I guess hang glider people must be a lot stupider than what you'd get from a random sample of the population.

Most of the pilots have had fair warning that they are lacking skill in their technique but refuse to practice their basics.

So if that's a valid statement then why do we wanna keep them in the sport and why should we get all hot and bothered when they eat it? Also... How are they getting certified to get into environments and conditions for which they're not properly qualified?

Our aircraft are light , slow and forgiving so pilots get lots of positive feedback from close calls until popping the nose on launch or landing or coming in slow, making poor approaches turns into a big crash event.

So stay up on those control tubes as much as possible.

Accelerated risk factor has caught up with us this yr. It is giving us notice > The party is over ! Get your head in the game or suffer the consequences.

Got that everybody? Stop thinking about who the Patriots will be starting for the big game tomorrow night and focus on your flying - for something new and different. OK, we should be all set now.

We made a huge leap in safety in the late 70s.

That's because most of the pilots we had back then were much older than most of the ones in the sport nowadays.

I think we have been feeling like we are doing enough to teach and maintain our skills. This year has shown us a different view.

Yeah Dave, that's what it is. We're not doing enough to teach and maintain our skills. Karen bought the farm a week ago because her skills weren't up to snuff.

The accidents have covered a broad range of pilots skill levels and flight situations and gliders. The only common connection I can see is the Pilot decision making was bad for that moment which resulted in lose of control resulting in a fatal accident.

- Who'da thunk...

- 'Cept, of course, for Jesse Fulkersin. He kicked everyone’s ass thermalling, came in with plenty of speed, and corrected when he got popped by a thermal in the strip. Nuthin' to be said or done on that one.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33504
Another fatal accident

Charles Fager - 2015/10/12 15:10:30 UTC

Hopefully the Hyner club president will come out with an official statement when appropriate.

That's how come the Hyner club president hasn't come out with an official statement when appropriate. What would be the point?

Many were caused by a failure to control the pitch in launching and landing.

So, again... Stay up on those control tubes for the love o' God. The sooner, higher, and farther out the better.

We all know the serious of controling the pitch during these phases of flight.

If I didn't know the serious of it before I sure do now. Won't ever catch me showing off by flying from the control tubes connector bar unless I've got at least a couple hundred feet clearance.

Some seem to be freak situations but should have been known to the very experienced...

Old.

...pilots involved. They all probably involve some complacency by the pilots involved.

Undoubtedly some by the pilots not involved as well.

I remember reading the pages of fatalities at the end of the yr in the mid 70s.

So how come you didn't write an article on how to best use your glider as a crush zone? Think of all the lives you could've saved.

They were a paragraph long and covered to basic causes.

And here's the one on the Jean Lake crash u$hPa made available to the general membership and public:

2015/03/27 - Kelly Harrison

Kelly Harrison (56), a Master (H5) pilot, tandem and advanced instructor and USHPA member since 1990, suffered fatal injuries during a tandem platform truck circuit tow at Jean Dry Lakebed near Las Vegas Nevada. His 11 year old student also perished in the accident.

Really gotta admire the efficiency of the use of the English language on that one. (Compare/Contrast with Dr. Trisa Tilletti fourteen page magazine article on magic aerotow fishing line.)

There were also big write ups covering the individual events during the yr. They were in your face and we took them very seriously.

"WE" sure did, Dave. We got our shit together and stemmed the 2015 slaughter rate right after each and every one of them.

Those reports gave us constant notice of how serious this activity is.

In stark contrast to the ones historically brought up by a few gruesome ghouls on hanggliding.org who demonstrated a perverse fascination with fatalities, reviving and rehashing old accident threads over and over.

We used that information to improve our selves as pilots and glider builders.

Great job, Dave and the other old pilots of that era. And that was a stroke of genius building gliders to work so well as crush zones for the pilots who failed to improve themselves quite as much as they might have.

Our friends dying were no less painful then.

From what I'm seeing of our friends today it must've been considerably more so.

Today they say for various reasons we shouldn't publish this information in our national magazine.

All of the various reasons being covering slimy asses.

I think this was one of the most valuable uses for our club rag. Our club mandate is to promote safety not to protect us from litigation.

What the fuck are you talking about? Mark G. Forbes has just told how dedicated to pilot safety and risk reduction u$hPa is.

All we can do in hindsight is to open our eyes wider.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/11/12 14:49:58 UTC

One of the stated goals of this site is to promote HG. MOST views on this site are NOT from members but from visitors, they have no ignore button.

Having Tad run around every day giving the impression that there is a massive weekly slaughter of pilots at tow parks due to their horribly dangerous devices surely doesnt promote HG. Especially when the safety records are quite excellent.

Like Jim said, theyve gone a decade with no fatalities at their tow park. Pretty damn good I say.

Yet listening to Tad, you would think guys were dying all over the place
He's been nothing but misleading and negative and ignored multiple warnings from me. So He's GONE

Back off more often.

- Yeah. And that'll really help us all in the experience and currency departments.
- So tell me who in the recent crop should've backed off? Who was flying in conditions that would've been unreasonable for a solid 2.0?

Perfect our launch and landing skills.

Can you provide us with the names of some old pilots who've perfected their launch and landing skills to speed us young pilots on our way to checking that off our to do lists?

Watch each others backs...

This is hang gliding, motherfucker. We've gotta watch our own backs pretty much full-time.

Thank our friends for all the constructive advice they give and act on it.

Right Dave. Our friends have so much wonderful constructive advice to give that you'll be able to find anything you wanna hear in as many categories as you wanna cover.

We are sharing a wonderful experience together.

I can't begin to tell you just how happy I am for us.

None of us should be paying the ultimate price for our joy.

Nah. But on the bright side only ninety percent of the 2015 fatalities to date have been from the ranks of us. Ten percent were a little kid who was just taking a one time ride and went first 'cause he wasn't big enough to go on the zip line ride the day before.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Paul Hurless - 2015/11/14 21:58:29 UTC
Sparks, Nevada

Some pilots worry about possibly damaging the side wires by stepping on them, either from the soles of their shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them.

Yeah Paul, Rafi was one of the pilots who used to worry about possibly damaging the sidewires by stepping on them, either from the soles of his shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them. And if we read about halfway down on Page 15 of the u$hPa fatality report prepared by Mitch Shipley we find that, indeed, there was absolutely no sign whatsoever of possible damage to the sidewires as a consequence of stepping on them, either from the soles of his shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them. All of the damage was at the bottom end of the wire where it exited the swage. Thus we can conclude that abuse from Rafi performing this very questionable, potentially lethal preflight test played no part in this unfortunate incident.

NMERider - 2015/11/14 18:10:48 UTC

We're not stupid, Walt. Far from in fact.

Sure Jonathan. Whatever you say.

I never do the stomp check.

Goddam right! If some pilots worry about possibly damaging the side wires by stepping on them, either from the soles of their shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them it would be pure insanity to do the stomp check. Never once has there been a sidewire failure from the possible damage by the pilot stepping on them, either from the soles of his shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them. If it ain't broke, don't break it. That's what I always say.

Instead, I use my knee to tension the wires. You can apply the same amount of force while not rubbing the wires against anything possibly sharp, rough, or otherwise damaging.

So have you written Wills Wing about the pure insanity they perpetrate in all their owners' manuals and proposed this superior solution which both eliminates any possibility of possible damage to the sidewires by the pilot stepping on them, either from the soles of his shoes or by grinding the wires into the ground while stepping on them?

Idiot fuckin' dickhead.

NMERider - 2015/11/14 22:39:37 UTC

That will certainly work just as well.

Certainly. No doubt. Obviously. Everybody knows that. Delivers plenty of force, easily, comfortably, quickly, efficiently. And it doesn't damage the wires the way these stomp tests do. So it actually works much better than what's in all the Wills Wing manuals. Hey Jan, can ya make us another video?

I usually push the leading edge up while holding my foot more or less still.

Everybody does. Makes it a real bitch to find a sharp rock suitable for damaging the wire.

Unless the shoes have bare steel soles it's not going to reduce the strength of even 1x19 wire. But I understand about sharp-edged rocks at some setup or launch areas.

That don't actually exist on any actual videos. And why are we so interested in the continued safety and health of the fictional individual stupid enough to grind his wire into a sharp rock doing this test? Teaching people to whipstall their gliders onto old Frisbee's in middles of the LZs or make the easy reaches to their Industry Standard releases?

15-413


NO PROBLEM! Teaching them how to not grind their sidewires into sharp rocks while doing stomp tests? Get real, dude.

I have damaged side wires by merely dropping the control bar in the wrong location when landing.

Lemme fix that sentence fer ya, Jonathan...

I have damaged side wires by merely dropping the control bar when landing in the wrong location.

So here's an ACTUAL issue which damages sidewires - as well as killing the odd pilot every now and then. So how many people are advising to never land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

Mike Bomstad - 2015/11/14 22:48:29 UTC
Spokane

bla bla bla fucking bla

It's complacency pure and simple.

Go ahead, Wonder Boy. Give us the full benefit of all your unique and brilliant insights regarding the serious problems of the sport.

Same as driving a car or anything else you have done before & "thought" you knew what you were doing.

You're right. I totally suck driving a car compared to what I was doing when I was seventeen. I'm amazed that I've survived this long and killed as few other drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, people of varying ages, dogs, cats as I have.

How many pilots assess conditions and give it the same amount of thought they did in the early years? (Don't lie)

How many crashes have we had this year precipitated by people flying in conditions inappropriate for their ratings? (Don't bother answering. (Not that you need any extra incentive.))

How many pilots go over the glider to preflight they way you did in the early years? (Dont lie)

- I don't. I didn't start doing the stomp test until very late in my career. The idea of deliberately stressing my glider on the ground creeped me out. Then I started considering the possibility that the glider manufacturer knew what it was talking about. Then I did what they told me to do in the fuckin' manual. Then I realized what a total fuckin' idiot I'd been.

- Do you mean going around and checking every fucking safety ring on every fucking bolt on every fucking flight? Fuck that. I can think of better things to do with my time. I also don't do hang checks to ensure that my clearance hasn't changed since last time I flew. And people who do are assholes.

(At a time when "you", for your personal safety wanted to be absolutely sure, really wanted to be sure about yourself and the decisions you were making.

(How well did you preflight that "sentence" before clicking "submit"?

We go to "auto pilot" mode for things we do repeatedly.

No shit.

- Ya think there's some reason conventional aircraft are equipped with autopilot (one word, no quotation marks) systems and highly qualified Pilots In Command use them?

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Mike Bomstad - 2009/12/12 05:50:32 UTC

Com'on this start to feel like troling... you sound like EVERYONE is going to DIE from winching That winching only works the Tad-way...

Just chill out and ease off on the capitals, or do you really mean to shout?

Tad just likes to go from forum to forum starting shit.
He was been banned from the hangliding.org, and this same shit has been hashed out on the OZ report.

From what I have read, he is no longer flying and has all this free time to drum shit up.

I had him ignored here, but I come here today and I was logged out and I see all his posts.... it will never end........ ever.

Check those groups, you will see the same frustration there also.

- Tell me how the Hewett Infallible Weak Link isn't the most insane idea for an autopilot ever concocted in the history of aviation. Also tell me why the better part of three years ago so many people suddenly became so happy with a fishing line autopilot that tends never to work - asshole.

(Safety is an illusion, and we take for granted because nothing has happened (YET!), we falsely assume that we are safe, and what were are doing is fine because of this. (some maybe making good decisions, but do not assume.You owe it to yourself & those that care about you to make sure)

Are you finished with your self important, pretentious, condescending, semiliterate, incoherent babbling yet? Just kidding.

Another or other pilots may say something to you, but you dismiss it....... why? (Because) You haven't been hurt yet, you have "lucked" out and therefore assume (confuse) that what you are doing is fine and those that say something to the contrary are "out to get you"

You know me so much better than I know me. Thank you for your insights. I so wish I were above all that - the way you obviously are. By the way Mike... I HAVE been hurt - BADLY. So I don't need some asshole who tags all his posts with:

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

lecturing me about the consequences of risky actions and poor decision making. And I don't imagine Karen would've benefitted from all these profound points you're making either. She had a seriously control tube crippled arm with a real iffy prognosis for something like a year and a half.

Driving a car, in the beginning, that took all of our metal capacity...

And many of us have very little metal capacity to spare.

...we really had to focus (we didn't think we had this), next thing you know, you are eating, drinking, texting, talking on the phone.....

All at the same time and mostly while somewhat intoxicated. It always amazes me I've survived as long as I have.

why?

Because everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. I take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping me. What's your reason?

Because you have done this some many time before, its "easy" you got this.

What? You got a camera planted in my car?

Same goes for flying, you "glance" at conditions. "yep, close enough" I've flown in this..... I know what to expect. I've seen it many times before..... Famous last words.

How 'bout THESE:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png


famous last words? Those were the ACTUAL last words on the public record of a tandem aerotow instructor posted the day before he bought it doing absolutely nothing wrong - like Joe Julik, Trevor Scott, Bertrand Delacroix, Jesse Fulkersin, Karen Carra. (Anybody remember the days when the Pilot In Command was considered to be at least in part responsible for the outcome of a hang gliding flight?)

The moment you think you know, the moment you think..."I got this, no problem" That's when you have potentially fucked yourself.

You're right, Mike. Lately I've caught myself thinking that I'll be able to put it down in one piece in the Lockout Mountain Flight Park in sled conditions. And all I'm doing is setting myself up for an overshoot. Thanks for helping me keep things real.

Treat every launch as if your life depended on it (It does) Treat every landing as if your life depended on it (It does)

- Karen Carra and Jesse Fulkersin DID exactly that and made ZERO mistakes. What good does treating every launch and landing as if your life depended on it do if you die anyway? When you play Russian roulette your life depends on every trigger pull. What difference does it make whether or not you treat each trigger pull accordingly?

- No, Mike, they actually DON'T. There's a reason that suicidal people don't take their gliders onto shallow dune slopes in light air to do away with themselves. They've got much better options on a city sidewalk.

Ask yourself.... every time IS FLYING TODAY A MUST? (its NOT in case you didn't know)

I don't wanna fly in crappy conditions. If there's a reasonable chance the conditions are gonna be crappy I stay in bed.

We spend hrs driving, $$ on gas. We show up at the hill to find conditions aren't the best, we spend hrs waiting, watching.

Or we do the same and show up at the airport to find the conditions ARE the best and...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favorite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...our Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney Link decides for us that FLYING TODAY WON'T BE A MUST - or even an option. We're going to be baking in the launch line all fuckin' afternoon waiting for people in front of us to get their "free" priority relights and the tandem thrill rides to finish cutting in and hoping that we'll be able to crack two hundred feet when our turn comes around again. (Suck my dick, Mike.)

Easy to talk yourself into anything, make conditions in your mind better than they are.

Sure. Gawd knows you've had enough practice dong the same thing with your Industry Standard towing equipment and envisioning what your capabilities will be in an emergency situation.

Ask yourself... is it worth it? Totaling your glider, hurting / killing yourself..... for something you could have opted to do another time when things were right / better?

Sure Mike. Whatever you say. So cite the relevant crashes.

Im looking to fly the next day also, if today potentially wont let me do that.... I'll wait for the next day.

- And you can always go back home and use the time constructively by learning to write at a third grade proficiency level. Win/Win.

- Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

Right.

I DO NOT NEED TO FLY TODAY no matter how much I WANT TO

Was that your thought process in this one?:

11-A12819
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13-A14319

You're totally dead for the purpose of that exercise. How 'bout contributing your wisdom to The Jack Show accordingly.

2015/11/14 23:00:40 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rolla Manning
2015/11/15 00:10:09 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless

Big fuckin' surprise.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/14 23:26:36 UTC

Sorry Mike,

But blaming it all on complacency is no better than blaming it all on pilot error. That's like saying, "Don't be complacent and you won't get killed" or "Don't be a pilot who makes errors" or "Crime doesn't pay" or "Friends don't let friends do drugs". It doesn't work that way in the real world.

Yeah, but it sounds so good. And it meshes so well with u$hPa's FOCUSED PILOT scam. And it makes everybody feel good 'cause none of us is ever complacent or unfocused.

Pilots are either actively managing risk down to acceptable levels or they are exposing themselves to hazards with largely uncertain outcomes.

Almost always because they've been brainwashed to believe that exposing themselves to hazards with largely uncertain outcomes...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Actually, that is our expectation of performance for weak links on hang gliders here at Cloud 9, too. Primarily, we want the weak link to fail as needed to protect the equipment, and not fail inadvertently or inconsistently. We want our weak links to break as early as possible in lockout situations, but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent weak link breaks from turbulence. It is the same expectation of performance that we have for the weak links we use for towing sailplanes.

...is fundamental to our survival.

Complacency is a real serious factor but the reverse of complacency is not active risk management. In our case it's simply fear. I don't think fear is going to measurably reduce the accident rate.

Certainly not if it's switched on and off at the wrong times, in the wrong situations, for the wrong reasons.

Keep in mind that the real accident rate is far higher than what's being reported.

You mean that if we barely hear shit about the fatals there's probably a hundred times the number of serious non fatals we hear absolutely nothing about?

And so is the under-reported incident rate. You don't have to have an accident to have an incident.

What's an accident?

There are plenty of pilots who are anything but complacent and yet they have little training or idea as to how to adequately manage the risk inherent in our sport.

Ya...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

...think?

I have a purely selfish motive for getting better and more cognizant of risk management. The better I am at managing risk, the more I can fly aggressive X/C routes and more often.

You need to move to Nevada.

In other words I get more quality air miles and quality hours. But I don't encourage others to follow me unless I know that they know what they're doing.

A large part of the reason that pilots don't practice managing risk is that...

...they're too busy perfecting their flare timing and spot landings at training hills three weekends a month.

...they have never been trained.

Or, more to the point, they HAVE been trained - exclusively in forced upright "training" harnesses up to and slightly beyond their first high flights and Two ratings. And then their training is finished so they go over to the Jack Show and start threads about identifying the single core problem that's produced the 2015 fatalities spike.

It's the same reason that GA pilots spin into the ground and die. They haven't had any spin training and so they don't always know how to avoid initiating a spin and they sure as heck don't know how to get out in time.

In hang gliding it's because they're flying aircraft that appear to be for recreational purposes.

They need training. We all need training. We stopped getting it as Dave Hopkins pointed out when USelessHPA stopped printing detailed accident reports.

And started shredding them within ninety seconds of reaching Tim Herr's desk.

The desire to avoid winding up like "those other pilots" was probably a strong motivator to actively manage risk.

So get on board with this please.

Get the fuck off the wire, Mike. You're a disingenuous stupid cowardly little shit with way less than nothing to offer to any honest rational discussion about anything. You're just a troll-in-good-standing on all the crappy mainstream rags out there.

The gross over-simplification and sweeping generalization of blaming everything on complacency doesn't work and it sure doesn't help.

So what's fuckin' new?

Thank you for your indulgence,
Jonathan

Paul Hurless - 2015/11/15 00:44:54 UTC

I have to completely disagree with that.

Oh good. I don't even hafta know what you're talking about before I can totally get on board with it whenever you've made a statement like that.

It's not over-simplification. The root causes of what we have been seeing ARE simple. Complacency is one of the most common causes of all aviation incidents.

I'd go with crashing - at least for most of the serious ones.

Complacency leads to pilot errors.

The hang gliding community...

Oh. THE hang gliding community. There's just one and we all get free lifetime memberships.

...is full of contradictions when it comes to safety and risk management.

This one - which you're never gonna be on, motherfucker - isn't. And I defy you to find an example to the contrary.

We see people still arguing that full face helmets aren't safer.

Who gives a flying fuck? They can only be of any possible use when you crash. And I'm guessing that a hundred percent of the current crop were wearing them. When somebody isn't the Industry spin doctors jump all over it. Torn aorta and a scratched chin the cause of death will be not wearing a full face helmet.

We hear some pilots being described as "great pilots" just because they get some long flights while at the same time their launches and landings are crap.

And then you've got your faggot class members who fly very little or not at all anymore 'cause they were blacklisted from all the Standard Aerotow Weak Link Cult franchises. Wheel landers too - but that goes without saying.

The entire flight, from takeoff to landing, has to be considered as a complete evolution.

Evolution appears to be a calling for which you're not terribly well suited. Have you considered other options for improving the gene pool?

You can't pick one part of it and ignore the rest.

I've asked the question here on the .org...

The heart of The Hang Gliding Community community.

...before - Who asks for input from other pilots about how their launches looked? Nobody answered.

'Specially the tow launchers who all think, "What's this asshole talking about?"

I do that when ever I fly.

Do you ask for input from other pilots about how your sentences look when ever you write?

I also ask about my landings.

I just roll in on my wheels so I don't really give a flying fuck.

Even though I always put effort into doing them correctly and strive to improve them every time I fly...

What? You don't have them perfected yet?

Paul Hurless - Sparks, Nevada - 51178 - H4 - 1994/03/15 - J. Newland - AT FL PL AWCL CL FSL HA RLF TUR XC

You've been flying as a Four for the better part of a two dozen years now and you're striving to improve this skill you were supposed to have nailed as a One every time you fly. Are you sure you're putting enough effort into doing them correctly and striving hard enough to improve them? WHAT IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM? Are you sure you really have the aptitude for this sport?

I am very aware that I can't always see what I am doing as well as someone who is observing and sometimes there are outside influences that can cause any of us to have a bad or off day.

And you can't even tell what you're doing wrong. You need some fucking Two to figure out for you what the problems are.

I see ego as being a huge problem in this sport.

I see the hugest problem in this sport as...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...it having been totally hijacked by a cult of idiot stunt landers.

I consider it to be an extension of the "intermediate syndrome".

Sorry, not really interested in the opinions of some asshole who can't figure out how to consistently put a hundred pound aircraft that stalls at eighteen miles per hour down safely somewhere on a thousand by three hundred foot putting green in daytime recreational flying conditions. Carrier pilots seem to be able to learn to do competent landings consistently in all kinds of crap conditions after a few months of training.

It keeps pilots from asking for advice from others, it keeps pilots from recognizing developing bad habits, it's what leads pilots to visit other flying sites and refusing to ask the locals about that site, and sometimes it just plain kills.

Or maybe the problem is that the typical person who flies hang gliders has a brain the size of a walnut.

it also leads some who come into this sport with absolutely zero prior aviation knowledge or experience to suddenly become "experts" in aerodynamics and flying after beginning to learn how to fly a hang glider.

I don't recall you having huge problems with Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

That shows when you see someone post about how flying isn't inherently dangerous. It's ALWAYS dangerous. Only consistently using good basic skills, good habit patterns, and staying aware of the continuously changing environmental conditions and dangers involved and properly dealing them makes it a manageable risk.

Keep up the great work, Paul. I have no freakin' clue how we got this year's bloodbath with you so free to post your opinions as many times and places as you feel like.

2015/11/15 00:53:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33622
Why are we killing ourselves so much more this year?

NMERider - 2015/11/15 01:05:02 UTC

Paul,

I have to agree with everything you have stated with the exception of our disagreement regarding complacency. While I do agree with you, Mike, and others that there is a very serious and real complacency issue within this sport, I fear that by placing too much emphasis on merely blaming our plight on complacency alone that it merely feeds right back into it. So now, will pilots tell themselves, "Hey, if I stop being complacent then I won't get killed"?

The ones with the u$hPa "FOCUSED PILOT" wristbands already have.

What exactly will these no-longer complacent pilot be doing differently once they stop being complacent?

The same things over and over again expecting better results 'cause they're no longer complacent.

I fully agree that an attitude adjustment will help and that complacency is an attitude but it's also a form of inaction or failure to act and that is a very serious distinction that cannot be ignored.

This is hang gliding. ANYTHING can be ignored - for DECADES.

What worries me is that if pilots accept the oversimplification that by changing their attitudes from complacent to concerned (or whatever)...

(Smug, probably.)

...they will then be safe. They have to change their actions as well. And this requires motivation from peers as well as training.

Isn't motivation from peers as well as training exactly what's gotten us into the current bloodbath?

Peer pressure alone may not work to achieve this end with most pilots. Pilots seem to like to learn from others' examples...

Unless it's somebody like Rob Kells who was a perpetual lift and tugger and wire stomper.

...and they also seem to respond to being inspired.

15-3703
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20-4106

So my suggestion to you is to learn how to be inspiring to your peers and set an example that others will gladly follow.

He already has. All his peers are total dickheads too.

Cheers,
JD

Paul Hurless - 2015/11/15 02:58:31 UTC

No, complacency is the issue. What pilots out there really don't know what they should be doing when they fly?

No actual pilots. Virtually all of the douchebags who fly hang gilders.

It's the belief that they know so much and have been doing it for so long that they don't need to really think about it that causes a lot of the incidents we have been seeing.

Nah, they're not constantly striving to perfect their landings like you are.

Another cause is ignoring deterioration of skills instead of working at staying sharp.

Tell me how deliberately and repeatedly entering strong thermals at min sink can be categorized as a deterioration of skills.

It's easy for a bad habit to creep in.

Not surprising - considering how easy it was for someone like you to creep into the sport.

You can get away with some things for a while until you get just a little bit closer to the edge of the envelope that one time and it bites you hard.

Remember when you designed the world's greatest aerotow release, told us you'd blind us all with its magnificence in a couple days, never so much as described a single goddam detail, and then told us you had no interest in discussing it further 'cause you don't aerotow? How come you have zero interest in the safety of all the aerotowers risking their lives on equipment so inferior to your imaginary stuff?

How many of us don't know a pilot or pilots who scare us with their launches or landings?

Just about all y'all's landings scare the crap outta me - or would if I actually gave flying fucks about any of y'all.

How many are afraid to speak up about it because we don't want to offend them?

- Other than T** at K*** S******, of course.
- I sure ain't. I totally thrive on offending assholes.

It is simple. It only just seems like that is too easy an answer to the problem. Looking for more complex answers that aren't there doesn't help.

Yeah. Keep It Simple Stupid. Just like your fake imaginary miracle release.

2015/11/15 03:50:49 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

NMERider - 2015/11/15 03:52:48 UTC

Very well stated. Now what do we do?

Sit back and wait for more of the better results to slam in.

Paul Hurless - 2015/11/15 04:30:14 UTC

The solution is as simple and direct as the cause.

If only we had someone of your genius and vision running u$hPa to lead us all in the proper direction.

Pilots need to be more aware and analytical about their flying. It's a constant, ongoing process.

Yes. Pilots who fly with backup loops and think that pressure and tension are synonyms - the ones familiar with the word "tension" anyway.

It actually begins before the airtime does. When you arrive at the site, does the launch, LZ, and weather meet your requirements for a safe flight?

As long as the launch is foot and the LZ is the narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place I've perfected my landing for I'm good. Don't really give a rat's ass about the weather 'cause it's always changing anyway.

What about the weather 30 minutes from now? Or two hours?

What about the weather three seconds from now when my pro toad bridle with its Rooney Link on one end and I will enter the monster thermal I'm watching blast my tug straight up from fifty feet? I guess it's perfectly OK to continue on 'cause we weren't there when Zack Marzec bought it and don't know what went wrong. And, hell, even the people who were there don't even know what went wrong. And there's been no u$hPa advisory to do anything differently, right? And I sure as hell ain't gonna be COMPLACENT - now that we've identified THAT issue. I'm gonna be FOCUSED like a fuckin' LASER! It's a no brainer that I'm gonna get better results.

Is the site known for rapid or unpreditable changes of winds and weather?

What site ISN'T known for rapid or unpredictable changes of winds and weather? We're flying somewhere on Planet Earth, right? What a fuckin' load o' CRAP that all these different sites have all these different idiosyncrasies known and decipherable only by the wise old locals by virtue of their decades of local experience. And what happens when we go XC? Do we need to memorize field guides of the landing options along our intended routes?

If you are on a flying trip away from your home site do you make sure you talk to the locals so you are aware of any potential gotchas?

Yeah, let's talk to the LOCALS. Maybe if we're really lucky we can find something out about what the fuck went wrong with:
- Terry Mason
- Zack Marzec
- Steven Tinoson
- Joe Julik
- Trevor Scott
- Kelly Harrison
- Bertrand Delacroix
- Jesse Fulkersin
- Karen Carra

Fuck the locals. It's the locals themselves who are the gotchyas. You're probably a local at a site or two. Damn near everybody who's bought it recently has had a good to excellent claim on being a local - particularly Kelly Harrison who took out an eleven year old kid along with himself. Invisible dust devil probably.

Some pilots have the attitude that they don't need to do that, either from ego or ignorance. Some pilots don't like having to think about not flying after having traveled to get there. Our sport is weather dependent. We have to accept that sometimes we really shouldn't fly even if we have spent time and money to go somewhere to do it. It's better to not fly today so as to be able to fly tomorrow.

When you are in the air, does your decision making meet reasonable expectations for a good and safe flight? Or are you more concerned with getting air time?

By the time I'm in the air I'm already fucked because I haven't talked to the locals enough.

When flying close to terrain are you aware of how you would react if the glider got turned towards the hard edge of the air or what you would do to prevent it? Do you give yourself room to deal with that Oh, shit! moment? Do you keep an eye on the surrounding conditions to prevent finding yourself in uncontrollable cloud suck or encountering gust fronts?

No Paul, none of that stuff has ever occurred to me before. Yet... Here I still am. Just lucky I guess.

It's not uncommon for the weather to change a lot in a short time at some flying sites.

Not so much in the counties in which they're located, just at the specific flying sites.

So Paul... Where are all the videos of all these gliders getting nasty surprises from all these site specific meteorological phenomena about which only the locals have specific knowledge?

What about when it's time to land? Do you consistantly fly good approaches and landings?

Goddam right! I go upright and to the control tubes so's I can come in to the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ with plenty of speed and correct if I get popped by a thermal.

If not, why not?

Well, sometimes I clip a tree and spin in despite having come in with plenty of speed and correcting when I get popped by a thermal. Not really sure what's going on there. Probably need to talk to the locals a bit more - if I can find out who any of them are anyway.

Is there a part of a flight that you often have difficulty with?

Hook-in checks. I'm always raising my wing into the turbulent jet stream and getting flipped over backwards.

What have you done about it?

Nothing yet. Gotta see what the locals are doing.

Ignore it and hope you keep getting away with it or do you do something about it?

Aw fuck. I'll just skip it. Think I'll just never get into my harness unless it's connected to my glider. Nobody who's done that has ever launched unhooked so that should be more than good enough.

10-12016

For new...

Young.

...pilots it can seem like a huge, fast moving workload to keep track of all the variables, but as their flying progresses things seem to happen slower as they develop the necessary skills to deal with it. It's when a pilot stops thinking about it that things go sideways as the big C takes over. Flying skills are not something that is static, they need to be practiced or they do deteriorate.

So let's get out to that training hill this weekend.

It may seem like a lot of things to think about, but it's really just a logical progression of events.

And logic has always been valued above all other qualities in hang gliding. Like the logical progression of the Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector over the entire weight range of solo gliders.

None of this should be news to any pilot, but sometimes some of it gets forgotten somewhere along the way.

No...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

...shit.
---
Daniel F. Poynter
----/--/-- - 2015/11/02