instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34071
Radical ideas for hanggliding safety
Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/02/15 18:33:33 UTC

Lesio,

I have my GA ticket and do not have anything to gain by any of these proposals. Just the opposite. I'd be willing to pay more to fly if it increased my safety...
Would you be willing to:
- stomp test your sidewires at the beginnings and ends of all flying days?
- lift your glider up until it stops within two seconds of every foot launch you ever make?
- treat all approaches as if you're coming into a critically restricted field?
- learn how to not land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?
- come in on wheels or skids whenever you don't have a brain dead easy headwind?
- learn:
-- the difference between a release and a weak link?
-- that there's no such thing as an easy reach when the shit hits the fan on tow?
...or that of the community.
Would you be willing to push all of the above in the community?

The first three items are zero cost, weak links which...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...protect your aircraft against overloading are close to zero cost, all gliders should be equipped with wheels or skids anyway, top quality releases which you use for every flight are gonna be no more than half a parachute which you're never gonna use.
I'm still grieving the loss of several good pilots from my club last year. I asked myself why isn't hanggliding safer?;
'Cause it's controlled by the total dickheads you tolerate in all your sport's social circles.
...and, Can hanggliding be made safer?
Can it be made any more dangerous than it is now? I think it's close to both being bottomed out and catastrophic collapse.
AIRTHUG: I appreciate your thoughtful response. I agree that USHPA is small and probably couldn't handle the added administrative burden at this time.
Or, hopefully, at any other.
I get what you're saying about aerobatics certifications being difficult because of exceeding placarded limitations. Unfortunately, that leaves the pilots interested in aerobatics vulnerable and left to their own experimenting. Clinics seem to be a decent way to fill the informational void.
How 'bout THIS:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408
Highland : Party Sat Oct 25 & Seminar Spring 2015
Ward Odenwald - 2014/08/30 01:44:02 UTC

To enhance towing safety, Highland will present a seminar that covers the science and art of staying on tow in both smooth and thermic air at the beginning of the 2015 season (3rd or 4th Saturday of March). This learning event should be considered a "must attend" for all who fly at Highland or tow elsewhere!
informational void? What was it these motherfuckers were supposed to have taught everybody when they got their AT ratings that they'll only reveal if we go to their "must attend" seminar that they're never gonna hold?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34050
Calling all tug pilots
Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/02/10 23:02:58 UTC

Please help!!! One of my local flight parks is in trouble. Highland Aerosports in Ridgley, MD is in a tight spot. They need a full time tug pilot or they can't open their doors for the season and may have to quit the business.

If you or anyone you know is a qualified tug pilot and interested in the job please contact Sunny or Adam at hanglide@aerosports.net
They're taking all this critical AT safety information with them, they're not gonna publish it, and nobody's ever gonna hear from them again, right? They were supposed to have run this "must attend" safety seminar nearly a year ago, they didn't, so everybody who launched over the course of the 2015 season did so with much narrower safety margins than they could've had, right?

And how 'bout John Claytor - 2014/06/02? End of a long...
John Claytor - Virginia - 67393 - H4 - 2007/01/08 - Steve Wendt - AT FL PL ST RLF TUR XC - Wills Wing Talon 160
...hang gliding career. Never heard that ANYBODY - John, conspicuously unnamed tug driver, ECC tug fleet, fake Safety Committee did anything the least bit wrong. But hell, maybe he'd have been OK if he'd had an annual sail-off airworthiness inspection and received an inspection sticker.
Dual chutes is not a panacea but I believe it saved Wolfi's hide last year.
You believe wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCCVBC6GejU


Wolfi HAD two chutes but only deployed ONE. And the problem with that one was that the wreckage was spinning and generating too much lift for enough of a descent rate for it to open. So tossing a second one would probably have been a crappy idea and, as things turned out, in hindsight it would've DEFINITELY been a crappy idea.
I don't fully understand the dynamics of flying two chutes simultaneously. The advantages I see are: a second chance if the first deployment gets tangled, for side mounted chutes it may improve access since there would be one chute per hand.
How 'bout the dynamics of secondary weak links? Can you think of any sane reason not to have all releases in a system protected...
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

I witnessed a tug pilot descend low over trees. His towline hit the trees and caught. His weak link broke but the bridle whipped around the towline and held it fast. The pilot was saved by the fact that the towline broke!
...regardless of what happens in the way of bridle wraps?
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34071
Radical ideas for hanggliding safety
NMERider - 2016/02/15 19:01:29 UTC

It's the culture of the sport that is the issue. The equipment is good...
Yep...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
The track records of all of our AT equipment components are incredibly long.
...and the knowledge base is good...
One could only dream of having...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
...wider ranges of opinions on all these issues than we do now.
...but the culture of the sport needs work.
It's getting it. HUGE Darwin effect last year. And this year we're way ahead of schedule already.
This work takes place with every interaction each of us has or doesn't have with each other.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Ever heard of "Confirmation Bias"?
Because you're a textbook example.
You were out looking for data to support your preconceived conclusion, rather than looking at the data and seeing what it tells you... which is why this is the first time we've heard from you and your gang.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.
How we interact (communicate) or fail to interact is what will make or break our safety culture.
Hang gliding safety/competence culture has been broken since the beginning of time and it's on an irrevocable and ever accelerating path downhill.
Chris McKeon - 2016/02/15 20:17:43 UTC

Penny for your thoughts.

Hey, my sister came up with this thought after us loosing K-M due to a Mid-Air. What do you guys think about developing some sort of a Turn signal for gliders? Just like we use in a car. It would be great if it was able to be actuated automatically. But some sort of a system that could be actuated via a control-Bar mounted switching device would be cool.

So Guys, what do you think?
How 'bout this...
- Be as aware of traffic as possible at all times.
- Clear all your turns.
- Adhere to universally recognized common sense right of way rules.
- Apply control bar input to cause your glider to turn and thus signal your intention to all other gliders to whom you are visible.
zamuro - 2016/02/15 21:03:48 UTC
New York

Discussion about safety procedures and alternatives are welcomed (e.g. the merits of flying prone vs. supine, hooking using the Aussie method or not etc. etc.).
- Sure they are. Just make sure never to push any legitimate concept to the point of making a measurable positive difference.

- Whatever you do to prevent unhooked launches make ABSOLUTELY SURE that it doesn't in any manner conform to:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
From these discussion pilots then could make their own safety decisions based on their take on others experiences and accounts as well as their own experience.
Yeah. Same way things have always worked in conventional aviation.
Besides some basic rules not to hurt unsuspected third parties (i.e.. spectators)...
If third parties are unsuspected doesn't that make them - by definition - dangerous? Shouldn't we be going out of our way to hurt them? Wouldn't that help a lot with the global war on terrorism?
...rules should be kept to a minimum.
'Specially right of way rules. If we actually did anything about those Ken Muscio wouldn't have been able to die doing what he loved and Stan Albright would be in a lotta hot water now.
I may choose to do aerobatics or not and as long as I am not endangering anyone but the decision must be made by me not by a self-appointed- know-it-all committee.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.

I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.

The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.

That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.

Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?
Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9036.html#p9036

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34071
Radical ideas for hanggliding safety
Brad Barkley - 2016/02/16 18:07:16 UTC

I think the "culture of HG" is at the root of the problem, and it's very hard to identify what that is.
It's a bunch of sleazy incompetent dickheads such as yourself being "trained", tolerated, encouraged by other sleazy incompetent dickheads.
I know there are quite a few top-down problems that promote the wrong culture and send out bad messages to aspiring pilots, H2's and maybe even long-time pilots. For example:

One well-know instructor with a high profile in promoting the so-called culture of safety...
Whom you're not identifying.
...offered me (with a wink and a nod) my H3, even though he'd never seen me fly a hang glider. I declined, of course.
- Instead you got your Three...
Brad Barkley - Frostburg, Maryland - 89857 - H3 - Steve Wendt - 2013/08/05 - AT FL PL ST 360 CL FSL TUR
...from the asshole who:

- sent Bill Priday with zero training in and compliance with u$hPa's 1981/05 hook-in check SOP off to the mountains where he survived about eleven launches before running off a cliff without his glider

- allowed Holly Korzilius to get on a cart pro toad with an easily reachable bent pin release and minus a back end weak link, shortly after which she PIOed herself into a lockout and had her driver fix whatever was going on back there by giving her the rope...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
...and half killed her

- signed Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney off on his Instructor's ticket which he shortly thereafter used to establish himself in a New Zealand tandem thrill ride operation where he skipped hook-in checks because they don't work - as clearly evidenced by the indisputable fact that we don't all do them - and dove himself and his unidentified female thrill rider into the powerlines while dangling from the basetube and three quarters killed himself

- Is there an SOP requiring that a rating official has to have seen you fly? You hafta have logged ten hours solo, does he hafta have watched and verified every minute or will a look at your log suffice?
An instructor...
Whom you're not identifying.
...is known to have given a Dragonfly sign-off to a pilot...
Whom you're not identifying.
...who had never soloed a Dragonfly.
- Meaning he DID HAVE tandem training on a Dragonfly and was probably a qualified General Aviation pilot.

- So obviously his life was cut tragically short - the way the lives of Chad Elchin, Keavy Nenninger, Charles Matthews, Mark Knight were. Plus we have this guy:

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2_264.jpg
Image

who ended his walking career on 2011/07/30. Probably all signed off by the same asshole before ever soloing.

- So the fuck what?

-- How does that impact hang gliding? I don't give a rat's ass if the Dragonfly in front of me crashes. Not my problem. One less tow mast breakaway protector in circulation.

-- Also... Tug drivers tend to get very skilled very fast. So if they don't critically screw the pooch on the first weekend...

-- There are only about two things that a tug driver can do to a glider from which the glider can't protect itself:
--- illegally fly with a weak link lighter than what the glider should be using - which ALL Dragonflies do
--- fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope

Are those relevant issues?
At one of the larger, well-known flight parks...
Which you're not identifying.
...it's routine for pilots to swoop the launch, even though this launch is a tourist attraction and can have as many as 50 spectators standing around.
- But is obviously Lockout.

- Gee, you'd think all that routine ramp swooping would tend to thin out are generate complaints from all those spectators. Or is the ramp swooping a big part of the reason they're standing around?

- How 'bout Doug Prather?

05-4321c
Image
06-4503c
Image
07-4625c
Image
08-4923c
Image
09-5001c
Image
10-5024c
Image
11-5125c
Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NITMQkOrm-Y


He's just a really cool dude who had a bit o' bad luck because he didn't appreciate the problem with depth perception over water?

- So apparently routine ramp swooping with spectators all over the place is a practice that goes on all the fucking time, right? So in the entire history of hang gliding can anybody cite a single incident in which a spectator has been so much as scratched or brushed by a ramp swooper? If a practice is ROUTINE and is having ZERO negative consequences then why the fuck are we looking at and discussing it? 'Cause it's a really good distraction from ACTUAL...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4171
Have you ever blown a launch?
David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama

Just so you will know, blowing a launch is probably not the worst feeling in the world.

My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.

Everything turned out alright. She bruised her knee and even the glider wasn't badly hurt, but I have never posted the video on the net out of concern for the sport.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents
Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
...ISSUES?
I was there one day and saw a pilot...
Whom you're not identifying.
...swoop so low that his wingtip scraped the ramp.
I was there in the LZ late one afternoon when there was a flush cycle and everybody came down at once to use the occasion as an opportunity to perfect flare timing. Hundreds of dollars worth of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide
Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."
...glider damage within a span of several minutes. But let's talk about this guy scraping the ramp.
I tried to do my part by seeking out the instructor on-site that day...
Whom you're not identifying.
...and suggesting that maybe he should talk to that pilot; I was told with a shrug, "I'm not the hang glidng police."
- Keep up the great writing work there, professional fiction writer.
- Was there anything stopping you from being the hang glidng police?
- And if one were to charge him then what would've been the SOP violation?
A instructor...
Whom you're not identifying.
...at a flight park...
Which you're not identifying.
...has recently posted videos...
Which you're not linking to.
...of tandem instruction...
With a tandem instructor whom you're not identifying.
...with a beginner (not a joy ride, but actual instruction) where he is swooping the launch, and then swooping the LZ on landing.
So this was ACTUAL INSTRUCTION? So how come the "instructor" was doing the approach? What was the goddam "student" doing? Pulling in and pushing out the bar wee bits for a few seconds at altitude?
Does that sound like good flying practices to model for a beginner?
How 'bout THIS?:
Michael Elliot - 27 - H2 - Pacific Airwave Double Vision - 1991/12/15 - Lookout Mountain Flight Park

Novice pilot went tandem with experienced tandem pilot (Bo Hagewood) in preparation for first solo altitude flight. On the base leg of the landing approach, flying crosswind over tree line, the attempt to turn onto final was unsuccessful. The inability to turn onto final may have been caused by thermal activity, the passenger interfering with glider control, or both. The glider continued straight, hit a tree, and side slipped sixty feet. The novice passenger died, the tandem pilot was seriously injured.
Does that sound like good flying practices to model for a Novice (when u$hPa wants to imply that he was the Pilot In Command and thus responsible for his death and the serious injury of the instructor) or, two sentences later, a Passenger (when u$hPa wants to imply that he was some bozo who grabbed the bar on approach and was thus responsible for his death and the serious injury of the Pilot In Command)?

So do ya think that when this beginner was first turned loose for a solo high flight he swooped the launch and LZ because of what his tandem "instructor" was doing?

How 'bout crap like:

37-12413 - 38-12612
ImageImage
41-13000 - 42-13014
ImageImage
46-13714 - 50-14106
ImageImage
05-2704c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png
Image
02-0608
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8588/16035769923_b851331365_o.png
Image
04-0822
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8645/16629729046_bc8d5d3750_o.png
Image
08-1109
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8654/16469500299_308b0c039d_o.png
Image
13-1820
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8571/16035767533_a1fbc16504_o.png
Image
19-2500
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8627/16469498679_58a125d134_o.png
Image

"Dave Seib, Brian Foster, Justin LaMarche on downwind. All the Ones and Twos avert your gazes so's you won't see the dangerous approaches and be tempted to use them as models for your...

02-02513
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5075/14208925773_f327a6169e_o.png
Image
03-02800
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/14165632776_5cf298464c_o.png
Image
05-03223
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/14165628916_bbdc682e28_o.png
Image
07-43026
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7442/14165624836_4fc82ee1a5_o.png
Image
08-43827
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png
Image
09-44119
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5191/14165621286_391c0187c7_o.png
Image
10-45613
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7393/14002127570_948814d124_o.png
Image
13-50017
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5193/14002093889_95c09edf26_o.png
Image
...Image flying."
One of the groups...
Which you're not identifying.
...doing high-profile, sponsored videos to promote the sport recently posted a video...
Which you're not linking to.
...of pilots...
Whom you're not identifying.
...speed gliding through trees, at times flying with the bar stuffed below tree level, through narrow gaps in the treetops.
Yeah, people of varying ages... Whenever you're flying through narrow gaps below tree level ya wanna have the bar out a good bit so's things don't happen too fast.
Is this how we want to promote our sport?
Nah. THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8746/16788628518_6dccfef724_o.png
Image
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8709/16768958827_82f8237179_o.png
Image
Image
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7597/16975005972_c450d2cdda_o.png
Image
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png
Image
5626
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8697/16463566373_3f21d65f25_o.png
Image
10-05810
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8810/16637299103_430a3e383a_o.png
Image
13-11509
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8684/17257514435_79a4f5a39a_o.png
Image

...is how we want to promote our sport. This IS how we're promoting it. Tons of free advertising in the mainstream media from that one. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack. Let's get back to your concerns with all the swooping and low speed gliding carnage.
You get the point. No, we dont' want hang gliding police...
FUCK NO! Perish the thought that any of our SOPs be ENFORCED! Those are on the books just to get exemptions from the FAA and reassure incoming students and tandem thrill riders that we're doing everything as safely and responsibly as humanly possible.
...and part of the appeal of free flying is the "free" part.
And, of course, the other part of the appeal is...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...the risk part. So what are we gonna do? Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
But stupid behavior is stupid behavior...
That's the risk part. That's the part we most cherish. Grow a fuckin' pair or take up checkers.
...especially as it influences beginner pilots and endangers spectators.
Yep. I just have no idea how to get handles on the swooping beginner issue and the absolute carnage we're wreaking upon spectators.
We might do well to adopt the phrase "If you see something, say something," even if it's just a buddy who routinely pops his nose on launch.
- Sorry. Gotta prioritize the swooping beginners and spectators being smashed on launch ramps.

- Fuck yeah! The way you always said something at the time in response the issues you reported and identified all the perps so's appropriate action could be taken.
But, as in the examples I've listed, sometimes saying something is worthless if no one is listening.
- You're on The Jack Show. EVERYBODY's listening!

- You just cited half a dozen issues/incidents you (claim to) consider problematic. You identified NOTHING and NOBODY specifically and took ZERO action beyond trying to pass the buck to somebody else.
2016/02/16 19:04:01 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/02/16 19:47:01 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9036.html#p9036
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34071
Radical ideas for hanggliding safety
Hoosier_Eagle - 2016/02/17 02:10:05 UTC
Indiana

In keeping with the title of this thread, I've got an (apparently) even more radical idea: Actually publish official accident reports.

Oh my, is that howling I hear...?
Timothy Ward - 2016/02/17 02:38:58 UTC

You think so? When was the last time you heard "Did you hear about so and so getting killed doing such and such? Man, I've been doing that. I'm gonna stop."
Pretty much never. But if there'd been an official accident report which identified the two obvious issues in the Zack Marzec fatality - standard aerotow weak link and pro toad bridle - the good guys would've been armed a lot better and the job of demolishing the Rooney Linkers would've been twenty times easier.
Hoosier_Eagle - 2016/02/17 04:01:21 UTC

I'm happy for you, but actually, I did not mean to refer to your personal epiphany on the passing along of hearsay.
Which is almost always our best source of reasonably good information nowadays.
In previous threads, I've heard the howl of "We can't release findings for fear of lawsuit." That was the howl, to which I referred. Official accident reports are not equivalent to talk here on the .org, and implying it does, kinda misses the point that I was making.

The reality is that the inability or refusal of our national organizing/governing body to release investigative findings seems to reinforce a problem: a culture of silence.
Got that right. Totally and incredibly deafening silence in recent years.
If done correctly, accident findings can and should be a valuable source of educational/training material.
When was the last time somebody figured out a new way to crash a glider? We know exactly what's going on. We see the effects of skipped hook-in checks, control tubes flying and landing, easily reachable bent pin releases, Infallible Weak Links, pro toad bridles in ZILLIONS of videos of mostly inconsequential incidents. We ALWAYS know at least some of the relevant issues whenever there's a fatal.
And, all that talk amongst ourselves here, or on Oz, or elsewhere, as you know, is not a substitute.
Kite Strings is as good a substitute as you're ever gonna get.
It does not change the fact that official accident reports are glaringly absent from our official organization. As far as I know, AIRS has not released anything yet, or actually committed to doing so. AIRS "may" release information; but as pilots, we should require that it "will" release and how often.
You would if you were real pilots. But if you WERE real pilots there'd only be a tiny fraction of crashes serious enough to merit reports.
Accidents of any degree are events that should be taken seriously, reported, investigated, documented, tallied, and later, be added to the educational curriculum, so we can all receive recommendations for avoidance.
And you expect that to happen in a monopoly industry with zero oversight and accountability with total conflict of interest?
I hope you understand, I am not condemning talk here or on other blogs, which to a large degree, is really just a natural part of being a social human being. I am however, advocating true accident reporting, so that any recommendations for safety (radical or not) are derived from real data, and not just years of hearsay.
Go back into the archives and read Doug Hildreth. Lemme know if there's anything happening now which wasn't identified and couldn't have been fixed decades ago if it weren't for the forces of conflict of interest and corruption.
Mark G. Forbes - 2016/02/17 04:19:03 UTC

That should become easier now with the new AIRS system in place. In the past we've had a problem with detailed accident reporting because of how the legal system can use that information against us in court.
What a total bummer it is that in the past you've never once had any detailed accident reporting that you could use in the legal system to prove that you'd acted in an impeccably responsible manner; exonerate you; demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt that the incident occurred solely due to the negligence irresponsibility, incompetence, criminal conduct of others; establish a precedent to serve you in the event of similar actions in the future. Go figure.
As a result we've been forced to run accident reports through our legal counsel to preserve attorney-client privilege, and that privilege is lost if the report contents are made public.
And you were FORCED! Against your will and every value you hold dear! How terribly UNFAIR. I really feel for you, brother.
With the new system, reports become part of a federally-licensed research study and shielded from legal discovery.
Oh crap. And so much of that stuff could've been used to show the public what a great job you've been doing.
We still have to distill down the data and extract the pertinent facts...
...and shred them into dust particles...
...rather than publishing reports unedited, but we should be able to provide more information about accidents and their causes in the future.
MORE than we're getting now? Are you sure you're running enough bandwidth?
Accident report analysis and writing summaries is a significant job, and it tends to burn out volunteers after a while.
I can imagine. It's pretty obvious that hundreds of hours have been spent on the decimations of some of these reports. Doug Hildreth ran fourteen years - but he was just putting out honest detailed and relevant information with legitimate analyses.
If you're interested in helping out with that job...
ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!
...contact any of the folks listed on the AIRS page.
Fuck Felipe and Mitch and the horses they rode in on.
Volunteers need to complete some training for certification under the license, and they can give you more information about that.
No doubt.
NTSB and similar agencies can disclose more in public because they're immune from lawsuits as part of the government. We have no such protection.
Well, you've done a pretty stellar job keeping your asses covered anyway.
Also, the law limits the use of those reports in legal proceedings, although lawyers certainly try to work around those limitations.
Good.
An article about it in Air and Space magazine, here:
http://goo.gl/YT4nOl

Note particularly the sticky issues related to recommendations for future safety improvements being used by plaintiffs to assert past negligence.
Why should that be the least bit relevant? u$hPa's never been guilty of past negligence. It's ALWAYS put the safety of the recreational pilot above all other concerns.
Essentially, if you identify a problem as a result of an accident investigation and publish a recommendation for a fix, you risk being sued for not having identified the problem before the accident happened.
You mean like?:
George Whitehill - 1981/05

Just doing a hang check is not enough. Don't get me wrong, a hang check is a very important step that should be done prior to every launch. A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.

The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a SECOND check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!

If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done EVERY TIME and this is made a HABIT, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice MUST be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.

In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious.
Doug Hildreth - 1990/03

The other significant increase is in failure to hook in. Typically there are about the same number of non-hook-ins in the questionnaire group, so that it is safe to say that there were at least ten failures to hook in this year. It has occurred in the tandem sector too, both pilot and passenger.

The instructional programs to assure hook-in within fifteen seconds of launch have apparently not caught up with the masses.
g-clef - 2016/02/17 13:26:14 UTC
Silver Spring, Maryland
Timothy Ward - 2016/02/17 02:38:58 UTC

You think so? When was the last time you heard "Did you hear about so and so getting killed doing such and such? Man, I've been doing that. I'm gonna stop."
(raises hand) You have now. In my case, "doing that" is hang gliding in general. I'm a hang 1 (yes, I've been working on H2 forever...long story), and I think I'm done with the sport.

My reason: two highly skilled people from my local club...
2015/06/20 - Bertrand Delacroix
2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
...were killed in the past year while flying, neither one (to my understanding) doing anything particularly unusual...
Bertrand was doing aerobatics and put himself into a spin that he didn't pull out of. That's particularly unusual and totally self inflicted and nothing any One, Two, Three, Four, Five ever needs to worry about.
...they were just out for a day of flying.
Karen was just out for a day of flying. Foot launches are a lot more dangerous than rolling launches.
Compared to them, I'm an occasional pilot at best, so I will never be at their skill level...therefore my odds of getting killed are much higher than theirs.
BULL FUCKING SHIT. Their skill levels were totally irrelevant. Bertrand is off the table and cliff launches are matters of care and judgment. Skill doesn't enter into the equation.
Add in the fatality rate in HG over all this year, and that's sending me a pretty clear message: you want to live, find another way to fly.
Knock yourself out. Any flavor of aviation you go into you'll find that skill has shit to do with crash rates. The Challenger didn't blow and the Columbia didn't burn up because of anybody's deficiencies in the skill department.
I understand reasonable risks (I still ride a motorcycle, and I'm well aware of how dangerous that is compared to driving), but the fatality rate I'm seeing in Hang Gliding has gotten far too high for my tastes.
And you have no interest in understanding the actual issues. So have fun on your motorcycle and in anything else you feel like pursuing.
I'm sorry to have come to this decision, because I really do enjoy it. It's an experience I'm not sure I can get any other way, and I always walk away from a day flying feeling better than when I arrived. But I can't ignore what I'm seeing around me.
Or do any work to make sense of it.
Mike Zasadil - Silver Spring, Maryland - 91059 - H1 - 2011/06/09 - Michael Appel - FL - Exp: 2016/06/30
User avatar
<BS>
Posts: 422
Joined: 2014/08/01 22:09:56 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by <BS> »

Or maybe it's a supportive point for the need of accident reports.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Ditto for the circumstances. I'd want whatever I and/or another involved party had done wrong and right immediately totally documented to help keep and/or steer others on(to) the right path and further advance the sport.

2012/06/16 - Terry Mason
2013/02/02 - Zack Marzec
2014/09/29 - Joe Julik
2015/06/20 - Bertrand Delacroix
2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin
2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
2016/01/28 - Ken Muscio

Everybody just suffered fatal injuries, Nobody did ANYTHING wrong. Shit happens.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34071
Radical ideas for hanggliding safety
Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/17 14:01:16 UTC

I am a pilot of 38 ys of with 1000's of hrs.
See G? You CAN have a very long career and track record with a brain the size of a walnut.
I understand your dilemma. Yes I have looked at the causes of accidents...
They're pretty much all caused by flying prone with both hands on the control bar and towing with Tad-O-Links that don't break when they're supposed to.
Things like flying head down close to the ground or diving launch and other dumb crap.
Which tend not to be big fuckin' deals if you're upright with your hands on the control tubes and ready to climb up your frame so you can use your glider as a crush zone at any sign of trouble.
The longer we fly the more conservitive we need to become.
Arys Moorhead, Scott Trueblood, Michael Bayliss, Tomas Banevicius being good illustrations from the recent record.
Keeping your skills current is important.
Bull fucking shit.
At your stage you should revisit the training hill and practice launch and landing.
- At his stage - Hang One - does he really need you advising him to revisit the training hill and practice launch and landing?

- Yeah G. Get that flare timing perfected. Ya just never know when you're gonna hafta land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.
Keep it fun and be happy you can be out there flying.
Nah, he's already done the math. People more skilled than he is have gotten killed so he doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell.
Flying HGs will always be potentially dangerous.
Watching television will always be potentially dangerous. Ya never know when you might be hit by an asteroid.
No one wants to die doing it...
Really?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34002
Fatality reported at McClure--Ken Muscio
Terry Strahl - 2016/01/29 01:39:30 UTC

KM " If I die hang gliding, accident or not dont feel sorry for me Im doing what I love"
WA6BD - 2016/01/29 02:11:40 UTC

we all take on this thought, every time our feet leave this earth to commit aviation.
Carm Moreno - 2016/01/29 04:31:57 UTC

I am at peace that he died doing what he loved. He would not want it any other way.
Mike Badley - 2016/01/30 20:38:38 UTC

I always said if KM was like a cat, he was using up his nine lives... I'm bittersweet about it all, glad that he went out the way he wanted (on a hang glider) and not some other creaky-old dude style, but I'm sure gonna miss breaking down with him in the lakebed after another great flight over Horseshoe.
Scot Huber - 2016/02/01 02:07:38 UTC

A lot of hearts are broken and in pain at this time, but everyone should realize he left this world doing what he loved the most, he didn't feel any pain and left us all a lot of great memories to cherish of times with him.

He was 75 1/2 yrs. young and as involved and excited about life and flying as ever. We flew at Big Sur over New Years. I hope I'm able to fly till I'm 75 or older and if I die flying as KM did I want everyone to know I believe a life lived following ones passion is a worthy life.
I was under the impression that all of us did - that fatally slamming in was our ultimate goal in the sport.
...and no one should. WE know all the dangers.
Don't forget to mention grinding a sidewire into a sharp rock doing a stupid and useless stomp test.
We just need to quit making the same mistakes over and over again.
So get back to that training hill and get as much upright control tubes flying and landing as possible. And always do a hang check before each flight so it becomes an automatic habit.
Tom Lyon - 2016/02/17 17:44:53 UTC

I definitely understand. Safety is the most important considering for me, and if I didn't think I could be as safe flying hang gliders as I am flying sailplanes (which are generally quite safe), I'd leave hang gliding.

For now, I am still confident that I can mitigate the risks, but I am far more cautious than most pilots.
Yeah. He NEVER does a turn below two hundred feet - just minor heading corrections. He'll be just fine no matter what Mother Nature throws at him.

And he knows he's more cautious than most pilots 'cause he's watched and listened to them and is competent enough to rank them with respect to his personal cautiousness standard.
---
8888 posts in General
Edit - And as of a wee bit before 2016/02/19 22:44:30 UTC:
55555 hits for this thread
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's avatar:
Image
last implemented for:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46595
Tug Pilot Needed
Jim Rooney - 2016/02/17 05:41:18 UTC

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's avatar:
Image
first implemented for:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46829
RRG Tandems
Jim Rooney - 2016/02/27 08:24:41 UTC

Tad Eareckson - 2016/02/23 18:38:05 UTC

Please just shut the fuck up and go back to paraglider tandem thrill rides in New Zealand.
Totally fuckin' nailed it.
This is the total fucking asshole to whom US hang gliding handed its testicles about a dozen years ago.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

PS...

Image Image

Notice what the "students" are doing with respect to the controls in both shots?

"Look at me, everybody! I'm the greatest flight instructor and authority on everything the planet has ever seen!" How very odd that the forums aren't all flooded with accolades and testimonials from his former students and quotes from his groundbreaking insight posts. Seem to just hear page after page of comments on what perpetually stupid muppets all recreational weekenders are - along with healthy doses of disinformation to keep as many people as possible as stupid as possible.

Compare/Contrast with Yours Truly. I actually DO give flying fucks about competent instruction, aviation in general and the sport in particular, and the dozen or so people in hang gliding who deserve to live.

Kite Strings, as of now, has 9027 posts, 6931 of which are mine. There is ONE image of me.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post8610.html#p8610

And that was a near 34 year old one posted by a rather recent member who'd correctly suspected that I'd been his instructor in the summer of '82. And in it he's in the cockpit preparing to launch solo and act as Pilot In Command of HIS aircraft and I'm standing in front of it ACTUALLY *INSTRUCTING*.

Before:

2-1306
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7258/13851486814_77efdf1004_o.png
Image

Zack C at the very dawn of Kite Strings coming off tow at seven hundred feet when he tries to follow the tug in Rooney based hang gliding upon the decision of his Lockout Mountain Flight Park issue 130 pound Greenspot fishing line Pilot In Command.

After:

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png
Image

Zack C a year and two months later as Pilot In Command coming off tow at two grand release altitude so he can start hunting thermals in reformed hang gliding upon his decision to actuate his non easily reachable homemade release.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=756
Discussion with Tad about Towing / Foot Launch
Zack C - 2011/08/12 13:09:22 UTC

I'd rather have the best hang gliding instructor in the world than the nicest, even if the best was a total dick.
I don't wanna see pictures of myself plastered all over the planet showing everybody what a really cool dude I am. I wanna see pictures depicting the positive changes in the support that have come about as consequences of the positive efforts and influences of me and my allies. I'd be EMBARRASSED to see pictures of myself doing the kinda crap that he is in the crap he posts.

That asshole so glaringly obviously doesn't give flying fucks about students, other flyers, the sport - other than as a tools for promoting himself.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34134
Unintended consequences
jimmygoat - 2016/03/06 01:06:25 UTC

RRG

I took up hang gliding in 2012 at the age of 54. I wish I had started 20 years ago. I broke my neck in 2013 during a Low and Slow scooter tow, dangerous. I just got back in the air 3 weeks ago, with one of the best instructors out there, George Hamilton, Sacramento Hang Gliding. I don't know if my accident was ever reported to USHPA. I did not sue even though I have a $34000 hospital bill I know hg is dangerous. I might have been able to . The instructor never cut the tow line when I was in trouble. He may have not known. At any rate I did not give $ to USHPA. Just waiting to see how Mavi and a couple of others respond to Comets post. I have not been in the sport long enough to really know what's going on.
Yeah ya have. You have a totally excellent picture of what's going on.
I was never contacted by USHPA.
JJ Coté - 2016/03/06 02:23:11 UTC

Did you by any chance report the accident yourself? Seems like you'd be the most qualified person to do so.
He just did - in the only sorta venue in which we have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing anything.
jimmygoat - 2016/03/06 02:35:28 UTC

No, I did not.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/03/06 16:33:26 UTC

An inexpert tow operator- of any sort -is a danger;
- And you'll be perfectly safe with all the expert tow operators 'cause they're all experts. Excellent at teaching what they teach - which is all typical. Watch some videos to see them expertly operating tows - they're things of absolute beauty. The glider's hooked up to the towline, the power is cranked on, and the glider goes up. Whenever I see a tow expertly operated in this fashion I'm moved nearly to tears.

And if you wanna see something really inspirational watch highly experienced 914 Dragonfly tug pilots pulling gliders into the air. The late Mark Knight comes to mind.

I guess the reason we never seem to hear any treatises on expert tow operations is 'cause the subject is so complex that it would be near impossible to describe and we mere mortals would have virtually no chance in hell of understanding it.

- Going off the ground in a hang glider is a danger - asshole. 'Specially when you have an expert tow operator on the gas and state-of-the-art equipment being used.
...that said, skilled scooter tow training can be one of the safest ways to capture solo air time, basic skills.
Launching upright, flying upright, landing upright. Making the easy reach to your release with one hand while maintaining precise control with the other. Yep, it's been five weeks since we've killed a Hang Two polishing his skills for mountain flying on scooter. The expert tow operator even cut the power to fix whatever was going on up there and the asshole bought it anyway. Darwin effect.
I highly recommend...
Pay close attention here. Christopher's gonna highly recommend something. Maybe another five second rule.
...securing such training from an instructor with a well established reputation-
It certainly doesn't hafta be a GOOD reputation - just as long as it's WELL ESTABLISHED. Like the standard aerotow weak link with its long track record. Or the unhooked launch. That's got a track record which exceeds the standard aerotow weak link's by about a decade and a half. But it's longer than the track record of any other hang gliding weak link.
...not just as an instructor or pilot, but for beginner training with a scooter specifically.
So on what are you basing this recommendation, Christopher? You've looked at u$hPa's extensive accident report database and recognized the patterns and correlations? If Jimmy had just watched the Blue Sky Scooter Towing video, put together his own rig, gotten a friend to drive he'd have gotten his neck broken a lot worse than he did with this u$hPa certified instructor with half a dozen weekends of beginners under his belt? Do we have the slightest shred of evidence that going with an expert certified instructor with a long track record of beginners is safer and more effective than DIY?
Leave instructors just getting acquainted with the process to experienced pilots.
In other words... No one. 'Cause experienced pilots tend not to fly scooter. But...
Paul Edwards - Tennessee - 89049 - H3 - 2010/09/28 - Daniel Zink - AT FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
Image
Mitchell Shipley - Florida - 47131 - H5 - 2013/09/20 - Steve Kroop
- AT FL ST TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, AT TOW OBS, PL TOW OBS, ST TOW OBS, TAND INST
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
There's an exception to every rule.
Ask the prospective instructor who they apprenticed under, for how long, how many pilots they've stewarded via scooter towing from beginner to novice- and then talk to some of those pilots. Ask them point blank about complications/accidents they've participated in- number and nature.
- This is what Christopher has done. It's what enables him to be speaking with the authority he does.

- What would be the point of that?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
If a tow operator has all six students from a Saturday morning class leave in body bags zero percent of the carnage will be a consequence of anything he did wrong.

- Try this, Jimmy. Find a public report from an instructor who had a student crashed and injured and states that he himself did something wrong - used crappy equipment, were deficient in conveying a concept, put the student in over his head, failed to check the streamers, mismanaged the power. Go with that guy. Stay the hell away from all the motherfuckers who've done everything absolutely perfectly all their careers but have had significant numbers of total shit students.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.

The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
Ask them about the throttle control they are using, line type...
'Specially that line type. You certainly don't wanna be flying cheap crap that'll...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...increase the safety of the towing operation for you six times in a row in light morning conditions.
...what method they have provided for cutting the line...
What's it matter?

http://vimeo.com/116997302
More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System

But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
With the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow - 130 greenline, 130 pound test. Breaks before you can get into too much trouble. Huge track record.
...and the advantages and liabilities of each.
The advantages go without saying. If there were anything better we'd all be using it already. Disadvantages? I've never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then. Got a problem with any of that?
Ask them what time they start tow training; it the answer isn't "the crack of dawn", find out the rational for training later in the day.
Yes. Same thing if you're heading to the training hill or dunes. The air needs to be glassy smooth and the only time that that condition can exist is the crack of dawn.
Talk to more than one person about the instructor you're considering.
We didn't already cover that with?:
...and then talk to some of those pilots.
Brian Scharp - 2016/03/06 19:14:51 UTC

Should we even consider the pilot's ability to release themselves in an emergency?
Why? We never have before and we all use proven systems that work?
Paul Hurless - 2016/03/06 19:44:34 UTC

Yes, we should...
Oh good. We have agreement. (But what?)
...but we also have to keep in mind the fact that newbie pilots are much slower to react to unsual situations.
Yeah. That's a fact. Paul Hurless has just told us it is. Newbies are all stunningly slow to react to the unsual situations that their instructors are supposed to be keeping them out of but seem to be so sual anyway.
It's all new for them and they haven't yet gained the experience necessary to make correct, quick responses when things begin to go sideways.
- Fuck yeah. And we certainly can't do shit to train them, run simulations, prepare them to make correct, quick responses when things begin to go sideways. Therefore we should just put them up on the same crap equipment that we kill Fours and Fives on all the time because if we gave them GOOD equipment they might not use it when they needed it. That's why we don't throw newbie skydiving students out of planes with reserves.

- And there's no fuckin' way a newbie hang glider student will have come from any other similarly demanding background involving speed and requiring timely responses - like skateboarding, mountain biking, conventional aviation.
Remember how as a new pilot everything seemed to happened so quickly?
No. I don't, dickhead. I remember starting right up as Pilot In Command of my trainer and doing pretty fucking good right off the bat. And I remember my first tow. Yarnall winch, frame connection, easily reachable release lever. And I remember being scared shitless of that easily reachable release lever, expressing my misgivings, being assured by my expert Kitty Hawk tow operators that it was a nonissue. And I remember my instructor roommate from that fall - 1980 - being killed the next spring on a similar setup.
Doug Hildreth - 1982/03

1981/04/12 - Joe Lewis - 31 - Columbia, South Carolina - Advanced - Seagull 10 Meter - Atlantic Ultralight Mini-Hill winch - head

Low-level lockout. Hands on downtubes, actuator on basetube, missed on first attempt. Hit head first.
And I also remember:
1981/01/18 - Dan Cudney - 32 - Spout Springs, North Carolina - Intermediate - 100 winch flights - Seahawk - Yarnell winch - head, chest, thigh

Low-level lockout. Actuator on downtube, difficulty in locating.
And I also remember tons of Day One, Flight One students who performed the takeoffs, control, landings as well as I could.
It's because of the student having to consciously think through every action instead of automatically reacting.
- Right. There's no fuckin' way a new student is gonna be able to handle something like pitch control automatically, intuitively, instinctively. So many of them just stall or dive into the ground the first dozen or so efforts.

- And let's not start teaching the tow student to be a PILOT. Let's get him properly acclimated to his roll as dope-on-a-rope passenger with the guy on the other end having all the control over the flight while being able to dump all the responsibility for anything and everything that goes wrong on the passenger.

- What the fuck could a total asshole such as yourself possibly know about anything pertaining to THINKING of any kind?
As the new skills are developed things seem to slow down as good habit patterns develop.
What skills? Up/Down/Left/Right. How much skill does what we do require relative to approaching a basketball hoop and sinking a layup? What we do requires very little in the way of skill, coordination, brains.
During that formative time the towing instructor has to take on the additional responsibility of dealing with emergencies instead of waiting for the student to take action.
- Oh. The total fucking douchebag who allowed the emergency to develop in the first place is now your go-to guy for fixing it. Yeah, that always turns out well.

- Your point being that we should keep sending newbies up on crap like:

29-44404
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7552/15585075834_ac19868957_o.png
Image
07-300
Image
022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
Image

'cause there's just no possibility that a student is gonna be able to spit out a Kaluzhin release actuator...

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png
Image
Image
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

...if things start going south. (Hey Jimmy... Hundred dollar Kaluzhin release or a broken neck, 34K bill, and interrupted flying career? Just kidding.)

Big picture...

Everybody and his dog knows that one hundred percent of u$hPa approved releases are one hundred percent useless in ANY critical situations - which is why we all fly with Really Infallible Weak Links which are one hundred percent useless in any critical situation requiring release and one hundred percent lethal in all the critical situations requiring maintaining thrust. Paul thus knows that Jimmy had a u$hPa approved release (notice he didn't ask - or need to) and is protecting u$hPa and thus his status within mainstream hang gliding by sabotaging Brian's effort to address the blindingly obvious problem.

This is why u$hPa officials and operatives fight all efforts to introduce releases that don't stink on ice and weak links that protect aircraft against overloading. The commercial interests are all on the safe end of the rope and have life or death control over the recreational pilot. They can pull him into a lockout the moment he gets a bit sideways and kill him or chop power to fix whatever's going on back there and kill him while appearing to be doing everything possible to save him. That's EXACTLY what Mike Robertson did to Yours Truly within the span of two days in early June of '94.

It's control of the target population through low grade, long term terrorism. "We hold your lives in our hands, don't fuck with us if you wanna stay healthy." You can see how a Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney gets totally orgasmic over having that kind of power and control over the people in this sport. You can see exactly how and why the commercial operations / u$hPa attract and cultivate the kinds of people they do and how we've gotten to the state of pure insanity we have.

Works likewise for free flight. Keep people upright as long as possible after launch and before landing. Want more freedom to fly more sites? Three consecutive landings under a wingspan of that traffic cone. Oops, dropped the bar and whacked. When you get the cast off your arm come back and take a landing clinic with us.
2016/03/06 23:30:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
I'm gonna be banning your ass after reading your 2016/03/07 22:59:34 UTC contribution to the discussion of this incident, Christopher.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34134
Unintended consequences
Brian Scharp - 2016/03/06 20:39:59 UTC

I'm wondering if in jimmygoat's case he was waiting for the instructor to take action.
Maybe he was waiting for his Infallible Weak Link to break when it was supposed to.
Bill Bryden - 1998/12

Unfortunately, we suffered a fatal towing accident earlier this year but only recently received some details about it. Richard Graham, and advanced pilot with 24 years of experience, was fatally injured in a towing accident on May 15, 1998 near Grover, Colorado.

Rich was platform-launch towing in strong (25-30 mph) winds crossing 35-40 degrees to the tow road. Thermal activity was also reported as moderately strong. The launch sequence commenced with the "go to cruise" command, and the glider cleared the tow vehicle. Approximately 300-400 feet of line unspooled, and according to the data memory in the vario the glider reached about 80-90 feet AGL. The pilot then radioed to the vehicle driver to stop, and a few seconds later the VOX on his radio transmitted the words, "Oh no." The glider impacted in a steep nose-down attitude and then inverted.

It is suspected that no attempt was made by Rich to release since the towline was still attached after impact, and the release and winch were determined to be functioning properly before and after the accident. The event was not witnessed directly so it is unknown precisely what happened. It is suspected that the very strong and crossing conditions were a primary factor in this accident.

COMMENTARY

After this accident and other similar towing accidents and incidents, a common reaction by many pilots is to question why the weak link did not break. Too often the discussion evolves into questioning the breaking strength of the weak link and suggesting that weak links with lower breaking thresholds be used.

I was recently told about a platform-launch towing incident a close friend experienced of which I was not aware. He launched and was quickly turned away from the towline. This progressed to a lockout, crashing the glider into soft ground which spared the pilot serious injury. When asked why he hadn't released, the pilot commented, "I thought the weak link would break!"
Wouldn't have been the first time.
Could better equipment have made a difference?
You mean a safer weak link?
jimmygoat - 2016/03/06 23:58:54 UTC

My post was not meant to change topic from Comets' thread, but I will answer your questions. I did not report it partly because of embarrassment, and I didn't know I had to report it. What would the USHPA have done if I did?
Shred it.
Maybe raise our rates?
And raise your rates.
It was my first time scooter towing and it was way too slow and the operator cut the tow just as I was releasing the tow line.
Bet that made it a lot easier to release the towline, huh?
The glider did not respond to the direction I wanted to go...
Yeah, slow gliders do a lot of not responding to the directions people wanna go. Down is almost always your best option.
...they say I pushed out.
They ALWAYS say...
Doug Hildreth - 1991/03

1990/03/29 - Brad Anderson - 24 - Novice - Flight Designs Javelin - platform tow - McMinnville, Oregon - head injury, ruptured thoracic aorta

"Strong novice" pilot with a lot of flying and some truck tow experience and instructors present launched and rose to forty to fifty feet. Pushed out hard enough to release and continued to push out after release. Whip stalled. Hit at a relatively low speed but head first. Died instantly.
http://www.ocala.com/article/20160219/ARTICLES/160219707?p=1&tc=pg
Hang glider had dreamed of flying solo from a mountain | Ocala.com
Austin L. Miller - 2016/02/19 16:13 EST

Donovan said they cut the power and the nose of the glider may have popped up.
...you pushed out. They really always say it after you're dead or have had your memory wiped. "We don't have any serious problems we need to address. The problem here was that the pilot was a total moron who should never have been flying in the first place."
I made the mistake of turning away from the pulley not realizing the tow line was still connected.
Guessing you weren't using one of these:

12-01125
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8809/18382342111_f94a5114a9_o.png
Image
I do not remember impact.
That's OK. You've got your expert tow operator to remember it for you.
My regular instructor, George Hamilton uses a kick ass tow system that gets you up away from the ground quickly and with speed...
Oh. Like:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing.
...you can see it on youtube.
We could if you gave us a link.
I should have been patient...
'Cause your life will be infinitely long and you'll have tons of time to get your training behind you.
...and not scooter towed...
No, you should've scooter towed with someone who WASN'T a total moron.
...but it was a lot closer for me.
What? You wanna do your flying with a minimum of inconvenience?
I just wasn't used to be towed so slow and low.
When are you expecting to become used to being towed so low and slow?
Scooter towing might be ok for some but I was used to Georges' method.
So scooter towing can't be fast and low or fast and high?
Definitely research the instructors technique and safety record.
- How? Guys like you tend not to identify perpetrators.

- If you understand the instructor's technique you probably don't need the instructor. And if you don't understand the instructor's technique you might as well roll dice to pick somebody.

- All these guys are assholes.
Brian Scharp - 2016/03/07 00:46:45 UTC

Maybe we'll find your previous instructor's report of your incident.
Right after he finishes teaching his latest pig to fly.
jimmygoat - 2016/03/07 01:09:00 UTC

Hey Larry, did you report my accident?
Larry? Was that the guy who was keeping us so low and slow and safe? Larry Howe? I HOPE.
Looks like you failed to get upright before you slammed in. Odd we're not hearing anything from Dave Hopkins.
Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/03/07 04:14:20 UTC

I'm sorry you got hurt. I learned to fly via scooter tow. When operated correctly by a trained instructor scooter tow has a very good safety record.
When executed correctly by a trained instructor in fake conditions a perfectly timed flare into a spot no stepper has a very good safety record.
The instructor should be pulling the student 3-5' above the ground...
Is that the highest scooter ever gets? Is that a good altitude to start for practicing turns?
...and modulating the throttle continuously.
To what?
The idea is to set the student down at the first sign of trouble.
He WAS set down close to the first sign of trouble. He certainly didn't get his neck broken from staying up too high.
Training for new students is conducted in the early morning and late afternoon when the air is stable.
- Who said this was a new student?

- Yeah. Don't the upright flying, easily reachable releases, XC landing practices wok great in the early morning and late afternoon when the air is stable over the Happy Acres putting greens.
Hopefully that's the setup your instructor had.
I'm sure he did. Everything else he did was beyond reproach.
If the scooter is too large or if too much power is applied the student can find themselves too high without the skill set to safely pilot the wing. There are a few scary videos like this on YouTube.
So make sure to use a little scooter that can't apply too much power so there's no chance that the student will find themselves too high without the skill set to safely pilot the wing.

Did ya read what he said happened, Dan?
It was my first time scooter towing and IT WAS WAY TOO SLOW and the operator cut the tow just as I was releasing the tow line. THE GLIDER DID NOT RESPOND TO THE DIRECTION I WANTED TO GO...
Who's got the SKILL to safely pilot a wing that's going TOO SLOW. And my call is that they had him upright to minimize the danger of him slamming in on his face so he couldn't pull in and consequently slammed in on his face.
It is also possible for things to go wrong if the student makes an aggressive correction...
- If the glider's stalled below recovery altitude how much difference is an aggressive correction gonna make?
- How is it possible to make a situation worse with a CORRECTION?
...hits turbulence...
Anybody hear anything about turbulence?
...or if there is some type of equipment failure.
If you go up with just a hook knife that you know to an absolute certainty will not be of any use in separating you from tow before you slam in or until slamming in is inevitable...

07-300
Image

...would that be an equipment failure?

I go up with a six foot reserve to save weight and achieve a faster opening time. I break a leading edge doing aerobatics at fifteen hundred feet. I get the chute out, clear, and open but my descent rate is pretty fast and I end up just as dead as I would have after separating from my glider at the same AGL because I didn't give myself a false sense of security just prior to launch. Some type of equipment failure?

A Rooney Link succeeds in increasing the safety of the towing operation by failing when it's supposed to and dumping you into a fatal whipstall. Success or failure?
Sometimes shit happens.
When you hook up with total shit equipment you know will be totally useless in an emergency at best or, at worst, create an emergency by very clearly providing you protection from a high angle of attack for that form of towing shit's already happened on a massive scale BY CHOICE.
Welcome back. May you have a long and safe flying career.
Yeah Jimmy. Move the clock back to 2015/03/27 and keep doing all the same shit we were doing from that point on. You're bound to achieve better results.

Is anybody gonna bother to ask him what he was using for a release? No? 'Cause y'all know it doesn't matter? They all stink on ice?
2016/03/07 12:59:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
Post Reply