Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9063.html#p9063
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart
Detective Shaft - 2007/08/24 11:17:21 UTC
Chattanooga
Where's Your Checklist?
In my head - asshole. I don't need a goddam piece of paper to look over before commencing an AT dolly launch.
Not attatching one self to the dolly will generate a few whacks on the;
- head
- base tube wheels
- base tube
- helmet
Definitely. If you haven't got the hold-downs disaster is inevitable.
If you survive a few of these whacks you'll eventually come to your senses and develop a checklist.
Bullshit. There's NOBODY who ever whacks more than once blowing a dolly launch.
Maybe someday you'll remember to prepare for launch using a checklist?
Maybe I will. And maybe there's a reason that paper launch checklists are totally nonexistent at all major AT operations.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 11:48:03 UTC
I'm going to back up a bit and describe a good way to leave the cart, then why some other ways that have been suggested might not be as good as they seem at first...
Oh good. If we're lucky maybe we can get twenty pages out of you on the finer points of dolly launching. Stuff that all of our instructors were all too stupid to be able to get through to us muppets and all we muppets were too stupid to figure out ourselves.
What I'm looking for when exiting the cart is what I call "sliding out of the cart".
How lucky we are to have you to establish aerotowing terminology for us.
It's flying out of the cart, but without doing anything. This is determined by various adjustments, but that to me is the ideal exit... slipping into the air.
So we're in agreement that Alejandro's left a bit to be desired.
First off is the pilot.
You mean...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...the guy on the Dragonfly?
What you should need to do is focus on moving the cart and glider as one.
Would that be the Zen AT dolly launch approach?
That's what those handles are about. Sure, they keep you from bouncing out of the cart too, but their other function is to allow you to keep the cart moving with you.
And here I was thinking that they were just there for decoration and orange because that's everybody's favorite color.
Put simply... you want to maintain bar position.
Don't push out.
Don't pull in.
Don't let the tug pull you through the control frame (this is the same as you pulling in).
Both before and after the wing starts flying, right?
Next up is your AOA.
Modern carts have adjustable tail heights.
Really? You make adjustments in AT launch equipment to handle differences in individual gliders?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
Sounds awfully complicated to me. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler, safer, fairer to establish a law of the land and have everybody play by the same rules or not play at all?
This was brought into being due to crosswinds...
Right A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away there was a standard keel support that was a good rule of thumb for all 260 pound gliders. This worked well for many years until crosswinds were discovered.
...some gliders (WW in particular) sit at a much higher AOA on the cart, needing to rotate further to get to a flying AOA. This shows up most in crosswinds as it's easier to have a low speed exit resulting in a dropped wing with bad results.
As opposed to a dropped wing with improved results.
This is (at least partially) where the theory of holding the cart till you lift it off the ground comes from (more on this later).
It's just a THEORY though - like evolution, global warming, a Rooney Link decrease in the safety of the towing operation when a glider's climbing hard in a near stall situation. So just go with whatever you feel like on a crosswind AT launch.
Now that we can set the AOA on the cart...
Wow. I wonder who the fucking genius who worked that out was. Bobby Bailey?
...you shouldn't have to deal as much with it as you roll.
Your wingtips should be nearly level with the ground, erring on the tip high AOA. Talk to someone that does ground crewing for more info.
Like the very experienced and very much in charge ground crew leaders who did such a great job of getting Alejandro safely airborne twelve days ago?
Last we come to glider trim.
If your glider isn't trimed well for towing (keel point tow off...
By keel point "off" do you mean a bit fore or aft of the trime point? Or completely off...
06-03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
...the way your cool pro toad buddy preferred to have it?
...vg set wrong) it will have the effect of wanting to pull you through the bar...
Yeah. No matter which way you go from the optimal trime and VG settings the consequence will be getting pulled through the bar more.
...same thing as the tug.
Please just shut the fuck up and go back to paraglider tandem thrill rides in New Zealand.
So
With everything set right, you should just slide happily out of the cart.
You shouldn't need to push out of the cart and you shouldn't need to lift the cart.
Next up... bad things and why they're bad
Homemade equipment, straight pin barrel releases, Tad-O-Links, and what else?
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/24 12:20:06 UTC
Bad things...
Having to push out of the cart.
Your AOA is too high or you're pulling in (or both!).
If you're having to push out when pro-towing (and your cart AOA is right), then you're allowing yourself to get pulled through the control frame. This is an easier mistake to make pro towing as YOU must transmit all the energy of the tow to the glider (through your hang strap). In three point towing, 1/2 the energy is transmitted to the glider, 1/2 to you.
Which is why it's called THREE point towing. 'Cause the energy - or PRESSURE - is split evenly in half between you and the glider. Asshole.
In pro towing, you're it.
The tug will "want" to pull you through the bar.
If you let it, you're essentially pulling in.
Exactly. So if you do nothing with all the tension going to the pilot and nothing on the keel to trim the glider faster you'll be pulled into the ground 'cause of all the weight way the hell forward under the nose.
All result in leaving the cart at too high a speed.
Damn straight.
01-02322
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7371/14074384771_f99bc821b7_o.png
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7313/14077581795_96ed114882_o.png
02-02405
Pro Toad Steve Blenkinsop here should be pushing out to get that excessive speed of his under some kind of reasonable control. If he keeps going like that it's pretty much guaranteed that he's gonna slam into the propwash. That'll make the glider harder to control and might not help to break his weak link enough. And then he might tear his wings off or lock out. And even if he doesn't he'll still be on tow - which is infinitely more dangerous than being off tow, regardless of what the assholes who make the crappy argument to the contrary might say.
Why is this bad? I thought speed was good?
Isn't the glider, as long as it's reasonably well lined up and level, going to be going exactly the same speed as the tug, which hasn't left the ground yet, no matter what? Have we ever, in the entire history of aerotowing, had an account of a glider being able to put slack in a towline before getting up to a substantial altitude? And can we find a video of even that happening? You'd hafta climb way the fuck above the tug and instantly stuff the crap outta the bar. You wouldn't be able to do it pro toad and I doubt you could do it two point. The tug would just accelerate and climb.
Too much of anything is bad.
Except, of course, for...
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC
You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.
Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.
...weak link effectiveness. You never have them TOO safe.
You pretty much guarantee that you will slam into the propwash.
Damn straight. Last year in Florida alone there were six muppets who were killed when they slammed into propwash. Two others had their wings torn off but were medevaced out in time to keep what was left of them alive.
Not only does this make the glider harder to control (you're now swiming in the rapids instead of a calm lake)...
Damn straight. Just look at the videos:
23-13302
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2950/15319209490_bfa9d3ba10_o.png
24-13314
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3944/15319209060_2c832f1f03_o.png
25-13402
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3941/15319256328_b17bbeb877_o.png
26-13405
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2945/15502781771_551b86ef93_o.png
27-13408
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15319255898_7c7155fcf3_o.png
28-13423
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5616/15319208160_90153960b0_o.png
29-13510
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3953/15319028829_2197a01247_o.png
30-13718
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3935/15319352717_03e4d2d8e4_o.png
Definitely not for the faint of heart.
...it tends to help break weaklinks.
So?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
You're saying that it helps to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD. If weak links aren't working then how can they possibly be fulfilling their purpose - which no one but a total moron would want to interfere with? It's like the airbags in my car. Every once in a while I drive into a telephone pole at thirty miles an hour so they can do their job and make my drive safer.
Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC
Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.
Wouldn't that be a good opportunity for u$hPa's 2015 Hang Gliding Instructor of the Year award recipient to get what he wants from the focal point of our safe towing system?
This is normal everyday highspeed cart exit.
Oh. So it's normal everyday stuff and terribly dangerous but somehow we never seem to hear about all the crashes and near misses, see the videos, read the there-I-was-thought-I-was-gonna-die accounts on the Jack and Davis Shows and none of these highly professional and safety conscious AT operations around the county seem to be able to get us muppets on the right track.
Taking things a bit further...
Fuck no. That was way too scary already.
Take the "I shouldn't need to do anything on tow" mentality (UHG!)...
Yeah?
You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
And here I was thinking I was just a passenger, with the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver - but without the Coke and peanuts I get on a regular commercial flight.
...and mix it with transitioning to pro towing.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
This gets really interesting really fast.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG
Way too interesting for my tastes, thanks. And I hear Ben Dunn hasn't been much of a fan lately either.
Bad habit #1, not flying the glider... just letting the tug drag you around by the nose...
I don't tie anything to my nose - dickhead.
...combines with the fact that pro towing REQUIRES the pilot to do something (not let that bar move).
So you want us to have BOTH hands...
01-001
04-200
07-300
10-307
15-413
...on the basetube? Or are we OK with just one for the nanosecond it takes to pry our Industry Standard easily reachable bent pin releases open with the other?
So instead of holding the bar where it is, bad habit pilot just lets the tug pull him.
Yeah. This happens in real life. Pro toads just take a nap and go up in thermal conditions to a couple thousand feet - never getting any feedback from the air or the highly professional staff a couple hours later when they land.
This pulls him through the control frame with the same effect as the pilot pulling in... a LOT.
Fuckin' lying stupid piece o' shit.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC
Running to the right = weight shift to the right.
It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.
Birds of a feather.
I've seen gliders go negative while still on the cart this way.
Like?:
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg
The results are never pretty.
And here I was thinking your dear friend Davis Dead-On Straub had been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
Ok, on to a less dramatic (and much more prevalent) problem...
Taking the cart with you, then dropping it.
Yeah. These are all prevalent problems - that none of the AT pros doing the instruction and running the operations are ever able to put the slightest dent in.
This comes from 582s vs 914s and crosswind launching with bad AOAs.
That would certainly explain John Claytor. By the way... Which one of you dickheads was driving the tug on that one?
582s take longer to get you to flying speed.
And here I was thinking...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC
You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
...that the Rooney Link was the limiting factor on how fast a tug could accelerate and hold onto its passenger module.
Bad AOAs in crosswinds have you at high AOAs and low speed (dangerous).
The two combine to put you in harms way longer.
So the idea of holding the cart till it's lifted off the ground was born.
What a marvelous hang gliding historian you are.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/13 19:09:33 UTC
It was already worked out by the time I arrived.
Are there no limits to your knowledge and expertise?
Not a bad hack solution.
If I'm out in a crosswind with a WW glider and an old style cart (no AOA adjustment), I'd probably do the same.
But we have better equipment these days.
My, what incredibly insightful and creative individuals we are. A keel support which adjusts to trim gliders with different control frame heights. Who'da thunk.
With a proper AOA, you should simply slide out of the cart... no need to take it flying with you. I teach students to feel for the glider tugging against the rope and let the rope slide out of their hands.
Gawd. If only other AT instructors were capable of following your leads.
So what's the bad side of holding on?
Behind a 582, not much.
Behind a 914, it gets a bit more exciting.
Your wingloading is changing dramatically.
Dramatically! To a HUGE percentage of your six G positive certified glider's capacity.
Behind a 582, you're not accelerating nearly as fast as a 914.
And if you're using a Rooney Link pitch and lockout protector on a grass strip you might not be accelerating at all if your launch assistant is a little slow in getting you moving - no matter what's on the other end of the string.
Things happen faster.
Up to Mach 5. Maybe more. Who knows?
Holding on a second too long now has dramatic results.
Suck my dick.
You wind up slaming into the propwash at the same time you're radically altering your wingloading (dropping a 100lbs).
Right. Fifty pounds per hand on orange hold-down.
I can't count the number of weaklinks I've seen break due to this alone.
And not at all to the fact that you total douchebags think that the standard aerotow weak link is good for 520 pounds of towline pressure.
It's not a horrible problem, but it just makes me shake my head.
http://www.brooklyndaily.com/stories/2015/14/all-nfn-gliding-2015-04-03-bd_2015_14.html
Jo shakes her head at tween hang-gliding - Brooklyn Daily
Joanna DelBuono - 2015/04/01
Lunacy rears its ugly head again. Several days ago a 12 year old was killed in a hang-gliding accident in Nevada when the boy and the instructor crashed into a dry lake bed.
What is wrong with parents to day? And where has all the common sense gone?
In these United States you have to be 21 to drink, 18 to vote and in most states 16 to drive. So how come there is no restriction on hang gliding? Or shooting an automatic weapon on a range in Arizona for that matter.
Why hasn't the FAA enacted an age restriction on all types of aviation practices?
I don't care how safe an instructor says it is. There is no way on this green earth that I would allow my 12 year old child to step into a glider and soar into the wild blue yonder with anyone. I don't care how experienced, or what the guarantee. No one is taking my child on such an adventure.
Not for all the "Please, mommy, pleases," in the world.
"Hang gliding was this year's adventure" reported KMVT.com. "The 12-year-old wanted to be first," said a relative. Who cares if he wanted to be first? If it isn't safe you just say "no." That's why we are the adults and they are the children - we know better.
The accident occurred when the team in the truck made a sharp turn while the glider was still attached and the glider came crashing down.
According to the story in the NY Daily News: "The boy's family had hired the man to take him hang gliding near Jean, Nevada." They hired him? SMH.
Not for Nuthin™, but what is wrong with parents today? Why do parents feel they have to allow their children to make these decisions, and why do they feel the more dangerous the activity, the more fun it is? What the heck ever happened to visiting a museum, the beach, or a famed landmark for a good, old-fashioned, fun-filled, family vacation adventure?
You got this douchebag's phone number?
Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9062.html#p9062
