http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34134
Unintended consequences
jimmygoat - 2016/03/06 01:06:25 UTC
RRG
I took up hang gliding in 2012 at the age of 54. I wish I had started 20 years ago. I broke my neck in 2013 during a Low and Slow scooter tow, dangerous. I just got back in the air 3 weeks ago, with one of the best instructors out there, George Hamilton, Sacramento Hang Gliding. I don't know if my accident was ever reported to USHPA. I did not sue even though I have a $34000 hospital bill I know hg is dangerous. I might have been able to . The instructor never cut the tow line when I was in trouble. He may have not known. At any rate I did not give $ to USHPA. Just waiting to see how Mavi and a couple of others respond to Comets post. I have not been in the sport long enough to really know what's going on.
Yeah ya have. You have a totally excellent picture of what's going on.
I was never contacted by USHPA.
JJ Coté - 2016/03/06 02:23:11 UTC
Did you by any chance report the accident yourself? Seems like you'd be the most qualified person to do so.
He just did - in the only sorta venue in which we have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing anything.
jimmygoat - 2016/03/06 02:35:28 UTC
No, I did not.
Christopher LeFay - 2016/03/06 16:33:26 UTC
An inexpert tow operator- of any sort -is a danger;
- And you'll be perfectly safe with all the expert tow operators 'cause they're all experts. Excellent at teaching what they teach - which is all typical. Watch some videos to see them expertly operating tows - they're things of absolute beauty. The glider's hooked up to the towline, the power is cranked on, and the glider goes up. Whenever I see a tow expertly operated in this fashion I'm moved nearly to tears.
And if you wanna see something really inspirational watch highly experienced 914 Dragonfly tug pilots pulling gliders into the air. The late Mark Knight comes to mind.
I guess the reason we never seem to hear any treatises on expert tow operations is 'cause the subject is so complex that it would be near impossible to describe and we mere mortals would have virtually no chance in hell of understanding it.
- Going off the ground in a hang glider is a danger - asshole. 'Specially when you have an expert tow operator on the gas and state-of-the-art equipment being used.
...that said, skilled scooter tow training can be one of the safest ways to capture solo air time, basic skills.
Launching upright, flying upright, landing upright. Making the easy reach to your release with one hand while maintaining precise control with the other. Yep, it's been five weeks since we've killed a Hang Two polishing his skills for mountain flying on scooter. The expert tow operator even cut the power to fix whatever was going on up there and the asshole bought it anyway. Darwin effect.
I highly recommend...
Pay close attention here. Christopher's gonna highly recommend something. Maybe another five second rule.
...securing such training from an instructor with a well established reputation-
It certainly doesn't hafta be a GOOD reputation - just as long as it's WELL ESTABLISHED. Like the standard aerotow weak link with its long track record. Or the unhooked launch. That's got a track record which exceeds the standard aerotow weak link's by about a decade and a half. But it's longer than the track record of any other hang gliding weak link.
...not just as an instructor or pilot, but for beginner training with a scooter specifically.
So on what are you basing this recommendation, Christopher? You've looked at u$hPa's extensive accident report database and recognized the patterns and correlations? If Jimmy had just watched the Blue Sky Scooter Towing video, put together his own rig, gotten a friend to drive he'd have gotten his neck broken a lot worse than he did with this u$hPa certified instructor with half a dozen weekends of beginners under his belt? Do we have the slightest shred of evidence that going with an expert certified instructor with a long track record of beginners is safer and more effective than DIY?
Leave instructors just getting acquainted with the process to experienced pilots.
In other words... No one. 'Cause experienced pilots tend not to fly scooter. But...
Paul Edwards - Tennessee - 89049 - H3 - 2010/09/28 - Daniel Zink - AT FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
Mitchell Shipley - Florida - 47131 - H5 - 2013/09/20 - Steve Kroop
- AT FL ST TAT TFL TPL TST AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, AT TOW OBS, PL TOW OBS, ST TOW OBS, TAND INST
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
There's an exception to every rule.
Ask the prospective instructor who they apprenticed under, for how long, how many pilots they've stewarded via scooter towing from beginner to novice- and then talk to some of those pilots. Ask them point blank about complications/accidents they've participated in- number and nature.
- This is what Christopher has done. It's what enables him to be speaking with the authority he does.
- What would be the point of that?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)
Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC
Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
If a tow operator has all six students from a Saturday morning class leave in body bags zero percent of the carnage will be a consequence of anything he did wrong.
- Try this, Jimmy. Find a public report from an instructor who had a student crashed and injured and states that he himself did something wrong - used crappy equipment, were deficient in conveying a concept, put the student in over his head, failed to check the streamers, mismanaged the power. Go with that guy. Stay the hell away from all the motherfuckers who've done everything absolutely perfectly all their careers but have had significant numbers of total shit students.
http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.
The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...
Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC
For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
Ask them about the throttle control they are using, line type...
'Specially that line type. You certainly don't wanna be flying cheap crap that'll...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...increase the safety of the towing operation for you six times in a row in light morning conditions.
...what method they have provided for cutting the line...
What's it matter?
http://vimeo.com/116997302
More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
With the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow - 130 greenline, 130 pound test. Breaks before you can get into too much trouble. Huge track record.
...and the advantages and liabilities of each.
The advantages go without saying. If there were anything better we'd all be using it already. Disadvantages? I've never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then. Got a problem with any of that?
Ask them what time they start tow training; it the answer isn't "the crack of dawn", find out the rational for training later in the day.
Yes. Same thing if you're heading to the training hill or dunes. The air needs to be glassy smooth and the only time that that condition can exist is the crack of dawn.
Talk to more than one person about the instructor you're considering.
We didn't already cover that with?:
...and then talk to some of those pilots.
Brian Scharp - 2016/03/06 19:14:51 UTC
Should we even consider the pilot's ability to release themselves in an emergency?
Why? We never have before and we all use proven systems that work?
Paul Hurless - 2016/03/06 19:44:34 UTC
Yes, we should...
Oh good. We have agreement. (But what?)
...but we also have to keep in mind the fact that newbie pilots are much slower to react to unsual situations.
Yeah. That's a fact. Paul Hurless has just told us it is. Newbies are all stunningly slow to react to the unsual situations that their instructors are supposed to be keeping them out of but seem to be so sual anyway.
It's all new for them and they haven't yet gained the experience necessary to make correct, quick responses when things begin to go sideways.
- Fuck yeah. And we certainly can't do shit to train them, run simulations, prepare them to make correct, quick responses when things begin to go sideways. Therefore we should just put them up on the same crap equipment that we kill Fours and Fives on all the time because if we gave them GOOD equipment they might not use it when they needed it. That's why we don't throw newbie skydiving students out of planes with reserves.
- And there's no fuckin' way a newbie hang glider student will have come from any other similarly demanding background involving speed and requiring timely responses - like skateboarding, mountain biking, conventional aviation.
Remember how as a new pilot everything seemed to happened so quickly?
No. I don't, dickhead. I remember starting right up as Pilot In Command of my trainer and doing pretty fucking good right off the bat. And I remember my first tow. Yarnall winch, frame connection, easily reachable release lever. And I remember being scared shitless of that easily reachable release lever, expressing my misgivings, being assured by my expert Kitty Hawk tow operators that it was a nonissue. And I remember my instructor roommate from that fall - 1980 - being killed the next spring on a similar setup.
Doug Hildreth - 1982/03
1981/04/12 - Joe Lewis - 31 - Columbia, South Carolina - Advanced - Seagull 10 Meter - Atlantic Ultralight Mini-Hill winch - head
Low-level lockout. Hands on downtubes, actuator on basetube, missed on first attempt. Hit head first.
And I also remember:
1981/01/18 - Dan Cudney - 32 - Spout Springs, North Carolina - Intermediate - 100 winch flights - Seahawk - Yarnell winch - head, chest, thigh
Low-level lockout. Actuator on downtube, difficulty in locating.
And I also remember tons of Day One, Flight One students who performed the takeoffs, control, landings as well as I could.
It's because of the student having to consciously think through every action instead of automatically reacting.
- Right. There's no fuckin' way a new student is gonna be able to handle something like pitch control automatically, intuitively, instinctively. So many of them just stall or dive into the ground the first dozen or so efforts.
- And let's not start teaching the tow student to be a PILOT. Let's get him properly acclimated to his roll as dope-on-a-rope passenger with the guy on the other end having all the control over the flight while being able to dump all the responsibility for anything and everything that goes wrong on the passenger.
- What the fuck could a total asshole such as yourself possibly know about anything pertaining to THINKING of any kind?
As the new skills are developed things seem to slow down as good habit patterns develop.
What skills? Up/Down/Left/Right. How much skill does what we do require relative to approaching a basketball hoop and sinking a layup? What we do requires very little in the way of skill, coordination, brains.
During that formative time the towing instructor has to take on the additional responsibility of dealing with emergencies instead of waiting for the student to take action.
- Oh. The total fucking douchebag who allowed the emergency to develop in the first place is now your go-to guy for fixing it. Yeah, that always turns out well.
- Your point being that we should keep sending newbies up on crap like:
29-44404
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7552/15585075834_ac19868957_o.png
07-300
022-04610
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
'cause there's just no possibility that a student is gonna be able to spit out a Kaluzhin release actuator...
25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817
...if things start going south. (Hey Jimmy... Hundred dollar Kaluzhin release or a broken neck, 34K bill, and interrupted flying career? Just kidding.)
Big picture...
Everybody and his dog knows that one hundred percent of u$hPa approved releases are one hundred percent useless in ANY critical situations - which is why we all fly with Really Infallible Weak Links which are one hundred percent useless in any critical situation requiring release and one hundred percent lethal in all the critical situations requiring maintaining thrust. Paul thus knows that Jimmy had a u$hPa approved release (notice he didn't ask - or need to) and is protecting u$hPa and thus his status within mainstream hang gliding by sabotaging Brian's effort to address the blindingly obvious problem.
This is why u$hPa officials and operatives fight all efforts to introduce releases that don't stink on ice and weak links that protect aircraft against overloading. The commercial interests are all on the safe end of the rope and have life or death control over the recreational pilot. They can pull him into a lockout the moment he gets a bit sideways and kill him or chop power to fix whatever's going on back there and kill him while appearing to be doing everything possible to save him. That's EXACTLY what Mike Robertson did to Yours Truly within the span of two days in early June of '94.
It's control of the target population through low grade, long term terrorism. "We hold your lives in our hands, don't fuck with us if you wanna stay healthy." You can see how a Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney gets totally orgasmic over having that kind of power and control over the people in this sport. You can see exactly how and why the commercial operations / u$hPa attract and cultivate the kinds of people they do and how we've gotten to the state of pure insanity we have.
Works likewise for free flight. Keep people upright as long as possible after launch and before landing. Want more freedom to fly more sites? Three consecutive landings under a wingspan of that traffic cone. Oops, dropped the bar and whacked. When you get the cast off your arm come back and take a landing clinic with us.
2016/03/06 23:30:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay
I'm gonna be banning your ass after reading your 2016/03/07 22:59:34 UTC contribution to the discussion of this incident, Christopher.
flying."
